The Fool

[Naomi]

What god was associated with the Fool (0) card in ancient Italy? In Egyptian mythology, what would be a possible correspondence to the Fool (0)?

I have looked allover the net for this but I can't find sorces on the Roman gods.

:dull:

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Well, if you're going for the astrological links...

Fool= Uranus (Greek) = Caelus (Roman)

Caelus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caelus)

[Naomi]

Astrological links? What do you mean?

No I want the historical usage, as it states on Wikipedia the tarot were fashioned to correspond to the Roman gods in Italy, which was considered to be highly fashionable.

Edit: ::reaches over to the bookshelf and whips out 777::: forgot I had this....

Edit: Ok Crowley says Zeus and Jupiter as well as Valkyries corresponds to the Fool!

What the hell?!

Well I already know that is not the Italian correspondence according to Wikipedia, where Juno and Jupter were the High Priest and High Priestess...allegedly.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Astrological links? What do you mean?


Every card in the Major Arkana is associated with an astrological sign or planet. The planets are ruled by Roman gods, but in the case of The Fool a greek name is used, Uranus, the Roman equivalent is Caelus. That's what I mean.

Of course, there was no planet called Uranus for the old Italians...

[Naomi]

Ah that's very interesting. But I don't understand how that connects Uranus with the Fool card. Could you expand upon your sources and so on?

And in the case of planets and astrological signs, the sun and moon are the extra 2 cards I guess. So how is this applied to the major arcana and in what order and why? And who did this?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Here are the Tarot with their astrological correlations, which doesn't include the new planets (Uranus and Neptune). The Fol is just correlated with the element of Air.

The Tarot (http://www.psyche.com/psyche/qbl/tarot_astrology.html)

Who first correlated the Tarot with Astrology? No idea. According to historical sources, the original Major Arkana was based around the Greek gods, who were fashionable in late Medieval Italy. But The Fool predates them as simply The Joker in the original pack, which was just a version of the 52 playing card set that we still know today.

[Naomi]

Great link, I look forward to brushing up on this area of the tarot which I have neglected for so long. It is interesting to me to realize that the fool was the only major arcana to be included in the original pack.

Is there any reason why two jokers are included in modern packs of playing cards?

[MythMath]

It's lonely being the only joker... :(

Nobody ever wants to deal with them...
______________________

I used to wonder as a kid why they only
'colored in' one of the two jokers...

But now I suppose it's so you could use them
as substitutes for two different lost cards...

[Naomi]

Oh lol!

Well I am into this site now and I'm already having major problems with the assertions here.

Why not one major arcana for each planet and sign? Why lumps of cards under each planet and sign that make no sense (well....to me)

I vow right now I am going to dump this whole tarot world on its head because it's pissing me off! It's uneven, messy and nonsensical!!!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Ah well. Personally I prefer plain old-style-picture Tarot with no correlations whatsoever. The Fool is just The Fool, The Magus is just The Magus and so on. Why complicate life? :cool:

[Kuroyagi]

Dionysos I think (and partly Diana and Dianus). The lil dog is the panther. It is said that Dionysos had invented the concept of "triumph" in form of the wild maenadic processions. The Romans took the word triumphus from the Etruscans who had taken it from the greek word triambos menaing: "a hymn to Dionysos" (tri-ambos: a three stepped dance.). I'll probably write more later when Im not so drunk. the fool is both an air-head and someone who transcends dualities: see, in earlier versions of the tarot there was a panther as I said but also a snake on the ground that pointed to this transcendance. maybe this poison-correlation can still be guess at when looking at the flower that he holds in modern depictions- "entrancing" it is. the fool in the pic is moving to the left- to the unconscious side: in jungian terms hes about to enter the archetypal realm.

[Kuroyagi]

about the two fools I have no conrete idea. but to me there were always two fools (that are somhow one and the same anyway): one is the blind beginner, one the holy fool or master- its like in the old zen saying: "there is a mountain" (perception of the normal ppl or fools/beginners)..."theres no mountain" (insight into its illusory nature)...and finally "there is a mountain" (having mastered it: it means to also recognize the authenticity of illusion.)

[Naomi]

Ahah! Yes I've seen the ancient panther version, but this one was very nasty, the cat was biting the fool's exposed genitals!

Hmm, I thought, perhaps it is trying to say he is running away from his awful girlfriend?

Very interesting indeed, Kuroyagi....I hope you write later...

Ci Celli, I agree completely, but I am striving perhaps to upgrad emy understanding of those basics, as I find myself confused on certain aspects of the card symbolism...

[Hairetikos]

You might like to check out Paul Case's Highlights of Tarot (http://www.botaineurope.org/en/tarot/Tarot.htm). This gives the basic western occult view of the subject. I know it does not specifically answer your question, but you might find his explanation useful all the same.

L. V. X.,
Hairetikos

[Kuroyagi]

Hi sis, heres a link for some of the stuff I said. The guy proposes to set the seven classical planets equal to the fool which aint that stupid (7 feathers of seven colours- and everyday of the Saturnalia one is taken away). but if youre designing your own one right now I dont see any reason why not set the fool as ALL planets (in potential)- since planetes means: wanderer- or even as Dark Matter, or take some inspirations from modern mathematics: "what is the zero".

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/M0.html

Voila a nice pic of "sexless" Diana with her trusting dog:
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/OWP/C9401.jpg

[Naomi]

Ah! That's brilliant! Thank you so much!

I must say though I was hoping to offer maybe...an Abrahadabra tarot project, get the thing published and the proceeds go to Abrahadabra. Or if everyone hates that idea...through Seijuro?

What inspired this is the absolute lack of really powerful decks and companion book that make sense.

It's funny you know I've been getting gifts from everyone that are cute and girly and you know that's just not me normally at all...so new phase/direction for me.

Anyways I was given "The Manga Tarot" by my sister "in-law" who is very cute and just getting into magic. She's a Gemini and surprised me by suddenly and determinedly jumping headfirst into the game by marching straight over to Barnes and Noble the day after one of our sleepovers to pick up her first Tarot deck which was the Manga tarot.

All of mine were destroyed by cats/glass/water or fire and I had given all of the rest of mine away in the hopes of awakening others.

So said sister gave me the Manga Tarot as well for Saturnalia. And it's just funny because it's not something I would pick out, but very beautiful Japanese art in the rider-waite tradition. I realized then I wanted a deck that expanded upon these basic cards and revealed a larger universe and mystery than the ones hinted at on the cards.

But after much pondering I thought that the only way to get a deck I really want is to make it myself. And it will happen, it's just I'm not sure what to do other than sketch and learn right now...

That picture of Diana is just amazing though, I wouldn't have thought of that. Though I should have: my mother's name is Cynthia and she's a complete fool, she was recognized as a heyoka up in the NW. The heyoka means "sacred fool" they are the most powerful medicine people here in many parts of the U.S. (Not sure if the term has travelled as far north as Canada)

This fool we know here is depicted wearing black and white stripes with two horns and very often eating watermelon. They usually lead the big ceremonies, but not pow wows like one automatically thinks of.

They behave rediculously but are always honored and sometimes even feared because of ignorance.

Here's a Tarot card google spat out at me depicting this kind of fool:

http://www.nativeamericantraders.com/uploads/d117.jpg

They say anyone who dreams of horses, lightning or eagles becomes one....

Another modern depiction (very kwaii)

http://www.mudmonkey.com/heyoka_with_lolly.jpg

They really do have dancers that dress up like this, but you won't find any pictures of them.

[Naomi]

Ah looks like the Wikipedia article finally got fleshed out, I am so pleased, check it it's very good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyoka


'The Heyoka symbolize and portray many aspects of the sacred, the Wakan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakan), in a rather unique way. Their satire presents important questions by fooling around. They ask difficult questions, and say things others are too afraid to say. By reading between the lines, the audience is able to think about things not usually thought about, or to look at things in a different way.'

[Kuroyagi]

Heyoka! That sounds like some funny exclamation. yes I see, often the daughter-mother relation is a bit difficult. Cynthia- didnt that mean "swan"?

Here's a Tarot card google spat out at me depicting this kind of fool:

http://www.nativeamericantraders.com/uploads/d117.jpg

phew, that is a ugly fellow, but the symbolism is spot on. for me the fool has to have these two traits:
- hes somehow non-conscious of his self or lacks "objectivity" or some vital/external information. thats why one cant be a fool intentionally. (I myself know all the maj.trumps pretty well but maybe 1-2 I have some difficulty with, but the fool....just comes naturally to me. ;))
- he is meta-dualistic and paradox. meaning: hes both wise and endlessly stpuid at the same time. etc.

in the pic his clothes are striped white black which is bright/dark (yin/yang) and thereby the prime example of duality (also the horns point there). those are classical prison clothes. the fool is not stupid, he probably thinks: hey look! Im showing all of you who are living in this iron prison called reality, how stuupid you are! (but what he is not aware of is that hes actually wearing those clothes himself . so hes a prime figure of ridicule to nearly everyone! "why are ppl laughing at me?" he thinks; dont they get it?...hes living in his own world.

once the fool saw some magicians. they were impressive and authorative and had great knowledge. the fool thought: shit, great!: I wanna be just like them! and he began to learn all those correspondences all those numbers and spells, too. and cause hes not stupid and cause hes so obessed and dedicated he learned them very quickly. then he went to the magicians and they asked him and said: well, young friend (and they looked at him strictly and piercingly and didnt mean: "friend", at all), magic is much more than knowledge, it is also an inner and outer process of change. but anyhow: what do you say to this and that question? and the fool spurted out what he had learned. he was so good at inwardly some of the magicians were getting uncomfortable (of course they had trained yoga and so they didnt show it).

finally, the fool thought: now I'll prove myself to them in earnest and show them that I can truely belong to them and be respected by them. and he said with great joy: and the correspondence for the number 418 is written on page 23 of "777" and is mentioned on page 156 in the sepher sephiroth and on the page 69 in Kraig! hearing that the magicians broke out into great laughter: what an utter idiot (they were soo relieved!), haha- kid you got it all wrong! etc...and the fool didnt get it, what was wrong? didnt he even learn more than they had asked of him? again he was too wise and too stupid. (only one young bright adept didnt laugh- the fool had got him thinking: somehow that fellow has a point", he thought, "maybe the correspondences and numbers and rituals we learned really are as important as the pages in a telephone book! and this adept threw away his books and stopped thinking and felt all the energies directly coming to him, and lighting formed between his fingers and his short black hair bristled and his eyes flashed red....he went out into the world and became a magus. (oops thats off topic)

now the fool got invited by the school of magicians to start his training proper if he wanted, but he was confused and ponderous....

yes, one can never become a fool intentionally and only know if one was one, afterwards. (I would have another story where a girl said to the fool "lets be good friends" and the fool said- typical of him-: I love you!...he always has to over-do it, that idiot!)



For you, Naomi, its also interesting to hear my take on the differences between the fool and the trickster (maybe you know it but we got a "teaching mandate" from m1thr0s, so I'll blabber on ;)).
The difference is the degree of awareness of himself: to the fool his convictions are absolute but to the trickster theyre something more "like guidelines". (we two incorpoated the fool and the trickster in the thread: "famous ppl and magic" in response to fr.novum organum)

The fools theme of duality is strong and a parallel can be seen eg to the lovers: the fool is caught in his world and is blind to the outer one, hes naked ("the plain and naked truth")- he only has his feathers and his shoulder cloak. The lovers are also in their own world but they are at least together. The devil is also about duality in some respect but hes more a manipulator of it, maybe more trickster-like. the trickster is an iconoclast an a rebel- he never gets benefits out of his actions but scarecly comes out alive.

I only have two tarot decks- the RW and the Thoth but never use them. I use myself and my life to go through the various cards. (maybe I should write those things down but I hate thinking and remembering cause: Im a fool! :laugh: )


All of mine were destroyed by cats/glass/water or fire and I had given all of the rest of mine away in the hopes of awakening others.
This is funny- why by glass? Is that some kind of elaborate joke with the elements or something that I dont get?

Gotta quit now, I'll leave you with a koan by master Kenobi:
"Who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?"

[Naomi]

Haha! You are so cute Kuroyagi!

Cynthia - no another name for Artemis or the moon goddess. Perhaps swan, I'm not sure. In the mythology I've read Cynthia is another name of hers. Wasn't there a story about Zeus becoming a swan and "ahem" courting some lady?

Heyoka is an interesting word. For kicks, there's the famous Lakota exclamation "Hokahey!" which means roughly: "It's a good day to die".

Now picture this:

A small dilapidated shack where an revered medicine man once lived and the people travelled to see from miles around. Now the medicine man is gone and the land is experiencing drought and despair as it has for many decades since the wizard left. Next to it is a newer shack with a big enclosure full of wolves with a big black one in it staring at you There are two trees in the enclosure that are as old as the conquistadors. There is desert as far as you can see, but a big mesa rises up behind the house. If you wander up there you will find pottery shards from thousands of years past if the spirits lead you to one. The mesa was once a place where people lived but now it is all flat and the bones have been carried off by the coyotes. In the house lives a heyoka and she dresses very strangely. She has a pipe that houses spirits that work on the land. The house is on the cosmic superhighway that flows around the earth and the spirits carry all the prayers from the pipe around the world. For the first time in thirty years there was a huge downpour that lasted for days. The desert was turned into a land of mud. It was rediculously overdone. No one knows why they're just glad it happened and maybe someone will say "thank you" to the thunderbirds if they still remember that old way. Or you might just say Hokaheyoka!

Now I have been to the place and it is about as far out on earth as you can get these days. Why in the world would anyone want to live out in such a barren desert where there is no water and snakes and coyotes and starving horses wander? I don't know. It is as stupid of an idea as throwing away all of your books, tools and knowledge and going off into the unknown...my god, you would probably be bit by a rattlesnake and not make it to the hospital on time...even if you had a cell phone.

So probably it is not a good idea to be a fool...

[Kuroyagi]

Have you never incorporated the fool, then? (I dont say that its an exclusive but this thread was about this tarot trump, no? there are other major arcana for sure and we can talk about them- but why dont you like this one?) It seems to get difficult for you but WHY? I really dont get it. I have no native American BG, Im living in the modern cities and still can be a fool, THE fool as well as THE magician or the Lover, or the Hermit or The Wheel of Fortune (just some that I like)- or all the others. Maybe Im really the fool, here. ;) (or dont you know wtf Im talking about?- just ask me or tell me what an idiot I am..if you like!)

[Hairetikos]

Okay, here's a more personal reflection than just the link previously posted. To me, the Fool is infinite potentiality, all the possibilities that float around in the No-Where, waiting for a center of expression to manifest them. I liken him to the Nuit of Thelemic philosophy, for anyone who's familiar with the system. This is basically in line with his being attributed to the Ain Soph in the Qabalistic system, so it's not terribly groundbreaking stuff here... But it is the present expression of my ever evolving perspective.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

the differences between the fool and the trickster

The Trickster for me is one and the same as The Magus

[Kuroyagi]

sure at times the magician is a trickster. but the trickster is more like a puer aeternus, too...it naturally also depends on your tradition and path.

[Absinthe]

I associate The Fool with the Hebrew letter Aleph, which relates to the Element of Air and also 'breath'. It's like the Ace of the Major Arcana. The Fool is the seed that holds all the potential of the MA.

Altough I use the astrological correspondences, I think you could use only Qabalistic correspondences without any problem.

To respond to someone who said earlier they couldn't see the astrological correspondences, this is how I see them:

7 planets
12 zodiac signs
3 'mother' elements - air, fire, water

= 22 Major Arcana!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

7 planets
12 zodiac signs
3 'mother' elements - air, fire, water

= 22 Major Arcana!

Actually if you're going to pick three elements i'd replace Fire with Earth, as Fire is the element that combines the others, the original 'quintessential' element

[Absinthe]

Air, Fire & Water are the Qabalistic 'mother' elements that combine to create 'Earth'. There is no 'Earth' element as such.

Air = Aleph & The Fool
Fire = Shin & Judgement
Water = Mem & The Hanged Man

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I see. I don't really incorporate the Qaballah into the Tarot personally.

[Absinthe]

Its such an interesting tool. So many paradigms can be applied to it.

[Anibis]

Typically, the 'excluded elements' of Earth and Spirit are 'doubled up' on paths 32 and 31 respectively... in 777 at any rate these are called 32bis and 31bis. It is concievable also that further bis paths could be added to include other missing astrological players: the asteroid belt, the planets neptune and uranus... etc... In terms of basic arrangements, though I am of the same school as Absinthe here...
-Anibis