Practical Magick and the Results [Archive]

Napsteria

01-27-2007, 11:20 PM

I hereby introduce myself to this forum. Seems to be a forum filled with likeminded people. Very cool.

I have practiced magick for a number of years now, and my greatest strength is connecting with various forces and entities. Mental projection, invokation of energies, evokation of spirits, I did all that immediately with good effect. I evoked my first Goetia after some months practice. While I could be blamed for just pretending, posing or fooling myself, I have compared notes with other magicians enough times to know that I really connect to the "real" thing/energy/entity/etc. I am also fairly okey at divination using tarot or runes etc. I am also fairly good at detecting magical attack and defending myself against such, although most often it seems self-afflicted such as excessive demonic work and lazy on the banishing.

I've also had slightly peculiar effects which have manifested in a way typical of what one could expect from spurious magical results.

Okey, after hearing all that one would think that I should be happy and shut up. But...

After a while I begun to really dig into getting physical real world confirmation of external change as a result of magical operations with specific intents. I know that things won't manifest out of the blue, I'm not an idiot. Also, I know that lusting for results is not a good way to do it, but somewhere along the line one needs make sure to oneself that what one does is worthwhile. I have to get this thing to work to prove to myself that I'm not just playing mind games on myself.

Currently I am doing a long sequence of practical magick workings now for a range of very related external intents. Nothing. Not even a sign of result. Not even an odd coincidence at all. It's getting very frustrating. I begin to wonder if perhaps I am just deluding myself completely, and that magick really is just a big fat overcomplicated self-hypnosis method?. I am already quite experienced in self-hypnosis and similar methods, so if magick offers only a roundabout way to do that, it'd be most dissappointing.

Is this kind of problem common? Do even you very advanced practitioners get periods of doubt? If you get strong practical results, did you get them from the start? If you did not, were you going berserk when you started getting results, power hungry and then calmed down?

More importantly, what should I do now? Any ideas?

m1thr0s

01-28-2007, 12:41 AM

hey Napsteria...nice to meet you.
nearly all practitioners I know have periods like this. A big part of the magickal process seems to be reflection and reevaluation. You pick up a thing and mull it over and maybe decide to test it out. Something happens and/or something doesn't. You consider these things and either try something new or blow the whole thing off for awhile.

The rules aren't altogether clear. No one system seems to have all the bases covered. You have to sort out what you are after. You have to sort out what you are about. Sometimes working with a group will help. Sometimes it doesn't. Reading up on ideas from all over the place will give you new ideas. Getting outside the box essentially...and this takes time.

Affecting change in the external world is tricky. There's a give and take. Sometimes it seems easier at the beginning and all of a sudden you hit a wall someplace. That usually means something has to change Internally. We get a certain number of freebies in life but once a proof has been established it moves you to another level and you sort of begin all over from a better informed place...but not always with the same access as before. Everything has its price.

I no longer work within traditional systems...to me they are all a page in history whose time has come and gone. The principles live on but the forms are skewed...the spelling is defunct. So I have gradually pieced together a different form of magick that works better for me. Everybody has to work this out for themselves. The only person who really knows where the hell you are going is you.

Sure, magick is self-hypnosis to an extent...but there's more than just one rabbit in that hat. How many rabbits is sort of up to you. How many did you pack in there? takes a little time to dig all that stuff out. If it is your nature to walk this path you'll walk it on the good days and the bad. If it isn't, then it isn't, and you'll move onto something else.

m1thr0s

Oblio

01-28-2007, 04:47 AM

Hi Napsteria, sounds like you've got an interesting story :)

M1thr0s, as always, that is excellent advice. When I started out, direct effects and manifestations seemed easy.. but then they weren't, for quite a while. Partly, I think I needed to progress internally, because those manifestations were more important/fun than developing my (don't really know the right word, so let's say "self").

Persevere though, I've found it's when you stop looking for things that you actually find them.. also, of course, energy can be whimsical at times!

A good way of getting back into your flow is through inner alchemy - playing with your bodies energy can be extremely rewarding.

Best wishes

;)

m1thr0s

01-28-2007, 05:21 AM

it used to drive me crazy that before I knew anything about magick I could do mushrooms or lsd or something and get blasted right out of my shoes...I mean seriously...I was one visual monkey. So I thought, hey, I'll learn about magick and then I'll really get high! Made perfect sense on the face of it. But as my systems got stronger the highs began to wane and I could in many cases actually feel my "shields" chewing the energy up and spitting it back out again.

So for awhile I thought...well that sucks shit...what good is magick? But after awhile I began to realize that the "doors of perception" were already open and I was actually sort of high all the time with less fanfare going on about it. I can still get to some of the more spectacular places if the quality is very high and the set & setting are correct etc...but street acid? forget it...I could drink a gallon of that crap and it wouldn't do a damn thing anymore...

So it's not always what you thought...sometimes you have to learn to look at things a little differently.

m1thr0s

Naomi

01-28-2007, 11:41 AM

Wow great description M1thr0s.

I also find that I am perpetully happy. Like nothing in the world could really bother me and it's so hard to take life seriously anymore. I get asked if I do pot or anything...probably because I wear really strange clothes as well. Now don't hold it against me...I've never done a single fun drug in my life aside from a prescription for codean (sp?) after surgery and I have to say that was a most horrible thing (I was resting in an underground basement area where I had been doing demonic summoning...oh yes fun visuals)

All of this postive stuff I garner comes from climbing slowly and steadily, and I've hit dry spots where I just couldn't find a foothold. It's a lot like climbing a rock face. Then there are plateaus. All I could do then is just watch and wait for the world to send me a new link to other realms I had not yet been ready for.

I have to ask you Napsteria...is something eluding you? SOme workings are harder than others. I find it very satisfying to overshoot a little bit to see if I've grown any but there is a chance of overdoing it where your results will be unnoticable. I think it's correct to say that something happens, even if you don't notice it.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 11:51 AM

Hmm. For me it was the other way round. Magic was my first love, but it took a long time to get any effects, or control, understand or even aknowledge manifestations. And as for drugs...I was 8 when I started magic and 18 before I tried any of that.

I begin to wonder if perhaps I am just deluding myself completely, and that magick really is just a big fat overcomplicated self-hypnosis method?.

Welcome Napsteria. Doubt will make magic impossible, as belief is necessary for it to work. I had a similar experience to you, and in my case I found reading up on Quantum Magick (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos197.htm) helped. In some ways Magick can appear similar to self-hypnosis, but quite the opposite can also be described to be the case when employing Sleight of Mind (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/som.html).

fr.novumorganum

01-28-2007, 04:35 PM

Great first post!!

I think one thing M1thr0s pointed out in a seperate thread that is very important is this: one of the first real steps to attainment is getting rid of any definitions of attainment we have (paraphrase on my part). I think we all had to reach a stage where we needed to get rid of preconcieved notions of what results are...

Magickal results can be very very very subtle---sometimes it seems like nothing is happening, when in reality there is a transformation going on within that will affect/effect what you experience without. I don't believe we can directly cause change in the physical world, but we can change ourselves which than allows us to change the world or our place in it.

I'll agree with M1thr0s and Naomi about the better attitude when practicing...

On a more practical note--result oriented operations, be they sigils, talismans, or charges to spirits can be very tempermetal workings. Things must allign, charges must be clear and direct, multiple worlds must be impregnated etc etc. What type of working did you do?

Napsteria

01-28-2007, 10:53 PM

I wish to thank everyone for the warm welcome and interesting responses in this thread. Some of them might take some time to digest.

NaomiChan, I do not think I overshoot but yes sometimes the effects can be difficult to know. It's only if the results manifest 100% that I will know for sure. Often I tend to get little signs though, which I am getting better at observing.

fr.novumorganum, I work with several different types of workings. Chaos sigils and goetia charges, mainly, although I have recently also cheated a little with some "spell books" recommended to me by people who say they got strong results with them. I have made some talismans which were quite impotent, and rune magick was fun but never went far into that. What do you mean by "multiple worlds must be impregnated"?

[Addendum, fr.novumorganum, what do you mean you can not change the physical world? Are you saying that ALL magical change is internal change?]

fr.novumorganum

01-29-2007, 09:43 AM

.

fr.novumorganum, I work with several different types of workings. Chaos sigils and goetia charges, mainly, although I have recently also cheated a little with some "spell books" recommended to me by people who say they got strong results with them. I have made some talismans which were quite impotent, and rune magick was fun but never went far into that. What do you mean by "multiple worlds must be impregnated"?

[Addendum, fr.novumorganum, what do you mean you can not change the physical world? Are you saying that ALL magical change is internal change?]

Hi again. What I meant by multiple worlds is the following: especially in charges to spirits and talisman working people only charge the lowest world Assiah with their intention. This is by far the least effective way to do this. rather, follow the correspondences all the way up to at least Briah and the world of the arch-angels, charge the highest bugger on the totem pole, and have the intent manifest all the way down to malkuth and Assiah.

http://www.prs.org/images/linart/m4sitree.jpg

In Qabalistic Philosophy there are Four Worlds of Existence and Manifestation. All possible modes of the operation of the One Reality are classified into these Four Worlds. After a certain manner they correspond with the Four Philosophical Elements of Magick. The Four Worlds and the Four Elements correspond with the Four Letters of the Tetragrammaton (Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh or IHVH).
The Four Worlds of the Qabalah are:
1. Olahm Ha-Atziluth (World of Emanations. Also called the Archetypal World).
2. Olahm Ha-Briah (World of Creation. Also called Khorsia, the Throne).
3. Olahm Ha-Yetzirah (World of Formation. Also called the World of Angels).
4. Olahm Ha-Assiah (Material World. Also called Olahm Ha-Qliphoth, World of Shells).

#2: IMHO, which may change, I don't expect magick can change the external world in any direct causality. For example, I may do an operation to get money, but my sigil will not create value or make me win the lottery. It can change me, make me more driven, make me get up earlier in the morning, make me more receptive to what the universe is offereing etc etc...

Ci Celli Ddu

01-29-2007, 09:59 AM

#2: IMHO, which may change, I don't expect magick can change the external world in any direct causality.

I have to disagree with you there, frater. I find that certain things in the external world can be changed in direct causality, others not. IMO it has to do with levels of desire, ie if you desire something too much then you're weakening the effects of sleight of mind. That's the main reason why I'm not a playboy millionaire (yet). You can also exchange the word 'desire' in this example with 'expectation'. Deep down I have a low expectation regarding the success of my get-rich-quick sigil. This is tied to desire as well. The example's a simplification, I know, but I've been up all night so it will have to do...:)

fr.novumorganum

01-29-2007, 10:00 AM

I think eventually we'll find a deep connection between inside/outside too

Napsteria

02-03-2007, 11:45 PM

I have to disagree with you there, frater. I find that certain things in the external world can be changed in direct causality, others not. IMO it has to do with levels of desire, ie if you desire something too much then you're weakening the effects of sleight of mind. That's the main reason why I'm not a playboy millionaire (yet).
If your main goal is to become that, then I think reading books on self-improvement is very valuable, why not start with the classic "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill from the 1930s (!) and then move onto modern speakers like Tony Robbins etc. The Napoleon Hill book is quite cool in that it actually is quite magical in ways you will have to discover for yourself. The main point is to KNOW what you want, and think big. If you want to become a "playboy millionaire" (in which currency?) then aim with all your heart on that goal, think about it every day, know it will happen, persist, follow all the other advice in the Hill book, and it will happen.

Of course, that totally contrasts the "sleight of mind" approach, where you would set up such a huge grand goal for your life, focus on this goal for about 35 seconds while constructing the sigil for it, and then charge it and never have to think about this huge grand goal ever again. Might work, I never tried, but I find the other method more likely, IMHO.

You can also exchange the word 'desire' in this example with 'expectation'. Deep down I have a low expectation regarding the success of my get-rich-quick sigil. This is tied to desire as well.Well, get rich slow instead then. What's the hurry? :tsmile:

Napsteria

Napsteria

02-04-2007, 12:00 AM

Hi again. What I meant by multiple worlds is the following: especially in charges to spirits and talisman working people only charge the lowest world Assiah with their intention. This is by far the least effective way to do this. rather, follow the correspondences all the way up to at least Briah and the world of the arch-angels, charge the highest bugger on the totem pole, and have the intent manifest all the way down to malkuth and Assiah.

I know about the 4-world model of Golden Dawn type of Kabalah, and it is indeed a nice model, however, I am not convinced that it would fit directly onto any random type of paradigm that I happen to use for a particular working, for instance Futhark Rune spells or African Voodoo or a brazilian Umbanda candle spells. I agree that one can view all those types of magick within the Hermetic model of the Universe, but on the other hand, one can also view the hermetic magical working from the model of the Universe of, say, the Norse mythologies.

Anyway, how would you generally charge a spirit/talisman in all these 4 worlds? If I have a physical talisman constructed from a model of my desired intent, isn't it per definition also worked through the mental and astral planes into the physical - that is, as a talisman, and not (yet) as a physical result.

#2: IMHO, which may change, I don't expect magick can change the external world in any direct causality.Perhaps you are right in that, although to me then it would reduce magick to huge lengthy self-help rituals requiring way too much practice before one gets to the wanted bigger returns.

Or perhaps you do mean that strong external practical magick does work - such as remote viewing or remote influence for instance healing, only that you use other words to describe the same thing? That is, you do a ritual to heal your dying uncle who lives in Panama and he gets better - how could that be explained without direct causality? I'd be most curious to know what your beliefs are in this area.

Napsteria

fr.novumorganum

02-08-2007, 05:53 PM

I know about the 4-world model of Golden Dawn type of Kabalah, and it is indeed a nice model, however, I am not convinced that it would fit directly onto any random type of paradigm that I happen to use for a particular working, for instance Futhark Rune spells or African Voodoo or a brazilian Umbanda candle spells. I agree that one can view all those types of magick within the Hermetic model of the Universe, but on the other hand, one can also view the hermetic magical working from the model of the Universe of, say, the Norse mythologies.

Anyway, how would you generally charge a spirit/talisman in all these 4 worlds? If I have a physical talisman constructed from a model of my desired intent, isn't it per definition also worked through the mental and astral planes into the physical - that is, as a talisman, and not (yet) as a physical result.

Perhaps you are right in that, although to me then it would reduce magick to huge lengthy self-help rituals requiring way too much practice before one gets to the wanted bigger returns.

Or perhaps you do mean that strong external practical magick does work - such as remote viewing or remote influence for instance healing, only that you use other words to describe the same thing? That is, you do a ritual to heal your dying uncle who lives in Panama and he gets better - how could that be explained without direct causality? I'd be most curious to know what your beliefs are in this area.

Napsteria

I think its possible to work any paradigm within one or the other, with a little creative correspondences, but that might be another best in another thread.

I'll assume that you know about color/shape/names to place on the talisman for each of the 4 worlds, so I'll jump to the method not usually discussed in books---evoking or astrally contacting the ruling entity in each world, starting at the highest, and delivering the charge directly to them with instructions to have all their minions work for it. So one would contact and arch-angel, angel, and elemental...

At the moment, I'm not fully convinced one could work an operation to heal an uncle in Panama, or even New Jersey for that matter...the uncle may be able to work one to heal himself....At the moment i am also not the strongest believer in remote viewing, but overall I tend to believe the saying "its all in your head, you just have no idea how big your head actually is".

Napsteria

02-09-2007, 12:57 AM

I'll assume that you know about color/shape/names to place on the talisman for each of the 4 worlds, so I'll jump to the method not usually discussed in books---evoking or astrally contacting the ruling entity in each world, starting at the highest, and delivering the charge directly to them with instructions to have all their minions work for it. So one would contact and arch-angel, angel, and elemental...

Oh that! I remember it being mentioned in the Talisman section of Kraig's book Modern Magick, one even is told to write the archangel and angel order names etc on the Talisman itself. (I suppose it is also mentioned in the Golden Dawn book by Regardie, however sloppily edited that book is, I'm no GD expert but I find errors all the time!)

However, I might remember wrong!!

I remember reading some Liber by Crowley online about a working he did to evoke the Mars Spirit Bartzabel, where he went through the whole hierarchy from divine name down to intelligence and then spirit. I don't remember if he actually charged each level with the intent or just used them to evoke the lowest one.

At the moment, I'm not fully convinced one could work an operation to heal an uncle in Panama, or even New Jersey for that matter...the uncle may be able to work one to heal himself....At the moment i am also not the strongest believer in remote viewing, but overall I tend to believe the saying "its all in your head, you just have no idea how big your head actually is".That last sentence I've always interpreted as meaning that everything is connected, implying that indeed it would be possible to remote heal your uncle in Panama.

I believe it is possible, but I also believe that a better magician would "span" further away from the internal change towards external change, so a beginner might mainly perform self-improvement, while a more advanced magician might better affect "remotely".

m1thr0s, your beliefs seem closer to mine in this regard, what would be a good magical working to perform to increase this "span" of the operation from internal towards external?

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-09-2007, 04:12 AM

m1thr0s, your beliefs seem closer to mine in this regard, what would be a good magical working to perform to increase this "span" of the operation from internal towards external? well, I'm an external junkie to tell you the truth...no apologies whatsoever...the external fascinates me constantly and since I already know it can't be trusted I don't have to contend with any trust issues one way or the next. It is what it is and somehow that suits me just fine.

How to push things to the external? It's all a question of where you place your focus I think. It's important to recognize that within & without are synchronistically aligned, yet where you decide to stage your "magick" is still your own call and there is no right or wrong on this. The only "wrong" that I can think of is if & when you confuse these things as somehow empirically distinct & separate. You could spend the next 10,000 years trying to pinpoint exactly where that line exists and still not be able to validate it empirically.

It's all a question of emphasis really. If you emphasize the within, the without will be drawn hard into its wake. If you emphasize the without the within will erupt like a super-volcano to meet it. Either way you turn a balance of both is what it takes to succeed. But you are still free to choose that focus that suits you the best.

So do what you like, and just keep at it. It's all the same stuff as near as I can tell. The rules may vary somewhat depending upon context. What else is new?

External magick is all so-called "sympathetic magick" I think. So you tell me, what kind of magick isn't? If you try to heal your sick uncle in panama you might heal him, you might push him right over the edge, or you might just break even...no way to know but to try. The only people that are really going to try very hard are those for whom this form of magick feels right to them! So who the hell are any of us to presume to know any better? I like surprizes personally...bring 'em on!

m1thr0s

fr.novumorganum

02-09-2007, 12:45 PM

That last sentence I've always interpreted as meaning that everything is connected, implying that indeed it would be possible to remote heal your uncle in Panama.

I was aware of a potnential contradiction there, but I don't necessarily think there is one...

I believe it is possible, but I also believe that a better magician would "span" further away from the internal change towards external change, so a beginner might mainly perform self-improvement, while a more advanced magician might better affect "remotely".

Napsteria

I do understand that you were not flaming there, however, I do feel it important to state that any value system implying 'better' or 'advanced' would be completely subjective.

And I was using a conditional because, at the moment, I haven't had any experiences that seemed to imply a change in the structure of the external world, while I have had many many experiences which resulted in a change in me, which resulted in the external world being a better media for me to operate in... a matter of my epistemology effecting my phenomenonlgy, while the ontological really didn't change...which I guess is a fancy way of saying "you just don't know how big your head is":laugh: