Fitting Yggdrasil in the Tetractys

[Ratatosk]

First some back-story:

The tree of Yggdrasil is not quite like the ToL, but it does have a few similarities. Namely that it represents several worlds (or spheres) and can be illustrated as such.

There are generally 2 different layouts I use for Yggdrasil.

The first places Nifelheim, realm of ice, and Muspelheim, realm of fire, partly outside of creation. Creation itself takes place where the two of them meet, and the energy or vibrational level of the worlds moves up from the barely vibrational at Helheim to the nearly self-destructive at Asgard.

(see ygg-1.jpg)

The second is more interesting in this arena, both for it's elegance, and for the step I take next. But first the second model. (Did you follow that or am I only confusing myself??:o_O:)

Anyhow, the second model places Muspelheim and Nifleheim at the lower periphery of the tree, kind of like overly long, tired branches.

(see ygg-2.jpg)

Looking at this model, and the nine chambers of the Tetractys something rather
obvious happens - we can neatly place the nine worlds of Yggdrasil into the nine chambers of the Tetractys, fitting an organic system very nicely into the mathematic.

(see ygg-3.jpg - thanks m1thr0s for the ok on using your Tetractys image - it would have taken me an aeon to recreate :p)

[Ratatosk]

And now a little more back-story: why the worlds are in the order in which they are placed.

Creation happened (in the Norse mythologies) when rime ice formed at the point where Muspelheim and Nifelheim met.

There are lots of cool stories about the great cow Audumbla licking the rime ice and bringing forth the gods and giants, but right now that's not the salient point.

At the lowest level of creation sits Helheim, and as one looks from Helheim to the center of the tree (Midgard), Jotunheim, land of the giants sits to the right. This places Svartalfheim, land of the dwarves to the left.

At the highest level sits Asgard, and looking from Asgard to Midgard, Vanaheim sits to the right, opposite Jotunheim, while Ljusalfheim, land of the light elves sits to the left, opposite Svartalfheim.

Further, in the second model, Muspelheim, being more energetic sits on the side of the tree furthest from Jotunheim, which is energetically and vibrationally slower than Svartalfheim.

How do we know Jotunheim is vibrationally slower than Svartalfheim? Because Jotunheim is the realm of the giants (think mountains and glaciers - subconscious), while Svartalfheim is home of the clever dwarves who bring ideas into fruition (moving subconscious ideas into conscious awareness and putting in motion the physicality to move it into Midgard - the land of man).

Midgard, of course, sits at the center (aren't we the arrogant bunch?) while the next highest energetic realm is the realm of the light elves (on the side of Nifelheim) - who lead men into flights of fancy and can often keep them trapped in their own fantasies. The next highest energetic is Vanaheim, home of the old gods - many of whom are actually giants, including fire giants and the realm of spiritual idea.

Leading us, finally into Asgard, the realm of spiritual manifestation, the "high" gods, etc etc.

I apologize if this seems a bit scattered, but I haven't yet actually taken the time to write a full treatise on the exact energies of the worlds. Trust me, it will happen, although I can't say with any surety when.

[m1thr0s]

sweet. thank you so much for taking the time to lay that out Ratatosk!

I know we talked about this maybe 3 years ago or so but somehow I lost my damn notes...this is a very important connection in my view and there's mysteries inside of mysteries regarding how this whole mysticism of 9 has spread itself about...

I'll have some questions for you but I need to study your layout a bit first...

teeheehee...I feel like a kid at Xmas!

I got the bb gun!!! :yes:

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

You'll shoot your damn eye out kid!

[Radiant Star]

That kid is taking us off the rails here, everyone is ducking to avoid him.

Stop playing with the gun or go to an off topic area. Tut tut.

[m1thr0s]

Do we have any kind of a sense how old this cosmology is Ratatosk?

Can you pinpoint its origins a bit for us Norse Know-Nothings?

also...I want to try to sort this out in elements. the place to begin really is grouping into suits, so we will have two parts each of wands, cups, swords and disks, with one part lamps. If we can sort that out the next step is to hash out which 4 best correspond to Macrocosm vs Microcosm, Outer vs Inner, or some other reasonably obvious division. From there it's an easy matter to ascertain actual bigrammal constitutions if we want or need them (which we might since we can actually build with them)...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Do we have any kind of a sense how old this cosmology is Ratatosk?

Can you pinpoint its origins a bit for us Norse Know-Nothings?

m1thr0s

That's a bit like: which came first, the chicken or the egg? Norse mythology like most European mythologies is a mix of Indo-European polytheism with I'd say Siberian "Shamanic" influences, though the latter element is more stronger in Scandinavia than in the rest of Europe. Then there's the influences that may have come via the Viking trade routes which included North Africa, Asia, and the Middle East around the 10th century

[Talkingfox]

That's a bit like: which came first, the chicken or the egg? Norse mythology like most European mythologies is a mix of Indo-European polytheism with I'd say Siberian "Shamanic" influences, though the latter element is more stronger in Scandinavia than in the rest of Europe. Then there's the influences that may have come via the Viking trade routes which included North Africa, Asia, and the Middle East around the 10th century

Actually Saami shamanic influences. Yggsdrasil is believed to have developed from Saami sources. Yggsdrasil predates the Viking diaspora and Germanic migration periods.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Actually Saami shamanic influences. Yggsdrasil is believed to have developed from Saami sources. Yggsdrasil predates the Viking diaspora and Germanic migration periods.

That's what I meant, really. The Saami are kind of an extension of the Siberian thing. Or maybe I should say Arctic-Circle-Thing

[Talkingfox]

I probably should mention that the addition of Asgard to the tree is a relatively recent thing. Probably just post Etruscian era (?) as the Odinic cults can be historically traced with the spread of the runes which are of Etruscian origin.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I probably should mention that the addition of Asgard to the tree is a relatively recent thing. Probably just post Etruscian era (?) as the Odinic cults can be historically traced with the spread of the runes which are of Etruscian origin.

Etruscans? They were assimilated with the Romans by the time of Caesar, surely?

[Talkingfox]

Etruscans? They were assimilated with the Romans by the time of Caesar, surely?

Yup. They were the Proto-Romans

[m1thr0s]

thanks for the little tour folks...this is helping me to sort out what to look for when I go looking for information on this stuff...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

I can strongly recommend anything by Hilda Ellis Davidson for source materials.

She takes archeological ifo into account as well as the mythic.
Comprehensive stuff.

[Dragon]

waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute......let me make sure I heard that correctly...the (I am assuming Futhark, just nibble on my toes if I'm being ignorant) runic system as we know it today is Etruscan in origin?

*breathes into a paper bag as he gazes at his anthropological timelines and starts to fill in some gaps mentally....then bombs like Hell's own busboy for Das google*


Son...of....a...bitch!


You two are just full of suprises....I will have my revenge by saying thank you :cool:


~D~

[Talkingfox]

NP Dragon...you know how I am about nit picky details.

Look at the spread of the Odin Cults as well....follows the path of runic from the Germanic Tribes in what is now Northern Italy right on up . Makes sense from the Heroic Myth model as well. Oh..there is also evidence of an actual guy named Wotan that was taken slave by guess who?? The Etruscans. And then was freed...to Southern Gaul.

[Talkingfox]

Give me a couple of days to amass our source materials and be posting a new thread under the Heathenism header on history and origins, ok?

[Talkingfox]

also...I want to try to sort this out in elements. the place to begin really is grouping into suits, so we will have two parts each of wands, cups, swords and disks, with one part lamps.

m1thr0s

Whew...that's going to be rough I think... The Norse thing is mostly about the interaction of fire and ice. Below Midgard tends toward Ice and the internal, while above Midgard is the inverse.

A few givens though: Muspelheim Wands to the nth degree
Niflheim : cups but frozen
Midgard: Disks
Ljustalfheim: Swords


I must say m1thr0s, that I'm very excited to find a place where the 2 very different languages we work from can converge!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I always thought the Vanir were associated with the Sea (water, cups) and the Aesir with the Sky (air, swords)?

[Talkingfox]

Yeah but there are also very strong elements of disks to the Vana...And wands too if a person takes into account the process of seidr....which also has strong swords elements.

And WHICH of the Asa? Depends on which of the forms. I would tend to put Asgard more in Lamps ( or Wyrd if I was gonna be hardcore Norse about it)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

the process of seidr...

Mmm...seidr (http://www.geiriadur.net/atebion.php?PHPSESSID=ef5ee3fc6495eaecbe4d25f56c3d 9787&uni=y&prefLang=en&term=seidr&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun)...:)

[m1thr0s]

I must say m1thr0s, that I'm very excited to find a place where the 2 very different languages we work from can converge!well...that's the beauty of the whole hermetic thingamajig...when it's on-track at least...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

well...that's the beauty of the whole hermetic thingamajig...when it's on-track at least...

m1thr0s

:) I've struggled for YEARS trying to actually GET on some real level, besides purely intellectual , what it is you've accomplished with your tetractys work. I think this particular idiom has unlocked some AHA moments for me.
Uhoh...me heads on fire....

[m1thr0s]

and I think that in all those years you have never actually seen me work this stuff! How weird is that? Indirectly of course in some of the ritual stuff we have crafted...(good stuff if I do say so myself)...

all just another reason why it's time for me to start blabbing my brains out I think...I am so naturally "hermetic" my best friends can't quite figure out what I'm about! This won't do...not all the time at any rate...

comes from being on a "secret mission" you know...spear & magick helmut crap...one seriously "cloaked" monkey...it's not really my fault, but it has certainly been a problem.

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

and I think that in all those years you have never actually seen me work this stuff! How weird is that? Indirectly of course in some of the ritual stuff we have crafted...(good stuff if I do say so myself)...

all just another reason why it's time for me to start blabbing my brains out I think...I am so naturally "hermetic" my best friends can't quite figure out what I'm about! This won't do...not all the time at any rate...

comes from being on a "secret mission" you know...spear & magick helmut crap...one seriously "cloaked" monkey...it's not really my fault, but it has certainly been a problem.

m1thr0s

Actually it's not you, at least as far as MY understanding of things goes. It's how MY head works that's been the problem, I think.

And I understand the keeping private the hardcore workings. The Norse thing is something I held pretty close to my chest except in isolated incidents. And I've been working the stuff for decades.

I think all I needed was a translator...and Squirrel Man has served as such for me. Handy people, translators.

Spear and Magick Helmet???? Hey that's MY neighborhood...:laugh:

I, for one am glad that you're "blabbing"

[m1thr0s]

well, you're a very physical person TF and it can be difficult to grasp just how physical all this tetractysy stuff actually is...that's one of my crucial objectives and one of the reasons I am really emphasing tantric alchemy right now...

anyway...a bit OT...I will get back to this immediate thing here pretty quick...my head is still spinning with all the possibilities...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

ok...back on topic. This particular symbol, the valknut , has always tasted very much like your tetractyl geometries to me. It is some times shown point UP as well. Each of the triangles represents one of the 'Realms" of 3 sphere each of Yggsdrasil. It's also emblematic of the Odin Cult.

The color attributions are mine, but seem to make sense.

Am I off base here?

[Ratatosk]

ok...back on topic. This particular symbol, the valknut , has always tasted very much like your tetractyl geometries to me. It is some times shown point UP as well. Each of the triangles represents one of the 'Realms" of 3 sphere each of Yggsdrasil. It's also emblematic of the Odin Cult.

The color attributions are mine, but seem to make sense.

Am I off base here?

I don't think so, at least not in terms of the tree and the color scheme - you have the blue for the lower realms (ice) the gold for the upper realms (fire) and green for the realms of creation where they meet in the middle.

Now if we can just figure out how the TwinStar ties in and the associated attributes we'll be rolling ...

[m1thr0s]

I've been thinking about that...

I think it's time to "itemize"...a concise little definition of each of the worlds in turn that may give us some clue as to their elemental "dominance"...

all in one place would be nice...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Hmmm, 3 groups of 3 worlds (to make 9). How do you group them? How are they grouped in myth?

[Talkingfox]

I've started a new thread in Runes for exploration of the Aettir since it is a bit more OT there than here. They DO however cross reference IMO.

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=1067 (link added: m1thr0s)

[Ratatosk]

Hmm, okay, here goes:

To the best of my knowledge there is no historical basis for the grouping of the nine worlds beyond "those above," "those below" and Midgard. However, in common modern usage is the splitting of the worlds into three realms of three worlds. There is more than one way to split the realms, depending on the application.

When matching realms to the Aett, the realms can be split according to their order in the scheme of (1) formation of the raw materials of creation, (2) the application of time and action to actually create, and (3) the perfecting of creation. More on that is in the runes forum (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1067).

When dealing with running the tree, the realms can be split into (1) the under worlds, (2) the middle worlds, and (3) the higher worlds. Here again, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Look at the tree maps at the beginning of the thread. One can work from lowest to highest vibrational energy (the first map), or one can take the "broken tree" (for want of a better name) approach (the second map - the one we are using for this working.)

As far as assigning elemental values it starts to get a little sticky. In a cosmology formed of fire and ice, where the only "pure" elemental worlds are inaccessable (Muspelheim and Nifelheim) it becomes an exercise in head-banging frustration to describe the worlds in elemental terms. Everything above Muspelheim and Nifelheim contain all the elements.
(If I leave off the "heim" at the end of the names don't be alarmed - I'm still talking about the same thing)

(1) The UNDER WORLDS:

Muspelheim
Nifelheim
Helheim

In both models Muspel and Nifel are not only far removed from travel by humans, but they are beyond time and creation, and as such unavailable to individual workings (unless you want to be frozen solid or burned to a crisp). While these realms are inaccessible, one can bring a Jotun (Giant) from Muspel to one's current sphere to bring about a personal Ragnarok, where the old and impure is burned away and only the perfected remains. Ragnarok must take place in a realm that is influenced by Nifel, or the results are that everything burns away, including the perfected. Calling a Jotun from Nifel is usually only done to "freeze" someone to keep them from doing whatever it is that needs to be stopped. The energy of Nifel without the the influence of Muspel results in a permanent "deep freeze." In astral work it would certainly mean you could never return to your body. (While astral travel to Muspel would leave nothing to return.)

The energies of the Jotun, Fire Giants and Ice Giants, are modified forms of the energies of Muspel and Nifel respectively.

Hel is the lowest world (in this model) accessible to humans. In fact, Hel is very closely tied to the affairs of humans. Because of this, some models place Hel in the Middle Worlds and place Jotun here. As I said, there's more than one way to skin this cat. Hel is the realm of the dead, but only those who were not chosen for other halls (of which there are many). Hel is utter neutrality, and time really has no meaning here, until Ragnarok, when Hel opens up and releases the dead back into the land of the living. (And out of those released from Hel only one human man and one human woman survive that, along with Baldur and his wife.)

(2) The MIDDLE WORLDS:

Jotunheim
Svartalfheim
Midgard

Jotunheim is, of course, the home of the Jotun. Keep in mind that all the Gods (except for the hero-cycle Aesir) come from the Jotun originally. This is accessible, but only with an armed god at one's side. While the Jotun and the gods visit each other in their respective realms all the time by invite, to the Jotun we humans are tiny, little, running hors d'oeuvres. The Jotun are also the keepers of time and memory, and they don't share. That alone makes it worthwhile to invoke or evoke a traveling companion and go. To get anything out of them takes a combination of patience (getting anything from an ice giant is like waiting for the glacier to move), preparedness for the unexpected (getting anything from a fire giant is like dodging explosions of lava) and the weaponry and strength to stand up to them.

Svartalfheim is the realm of dwarves and trolls, and intersects directly with Midgard. The trolls are always hungry, and known in the mythology for taking anything they want, with no remorse or regret. They are indiscriminate in their appetites. The dwarves are the crafters of all the tools and weapons the gods wield, bringing things into physical manifestation, but at a price. The dwarves are shrewd negotiators and (as in any monopoly) demand a high price for their work. Trolls and dwarves alike are unable to bear the light of the sun, so they stay in their underground realm during the day. In one of the stories Thor has a disagreement with 3 dwarves, but does not dare to strike them down after sharing a cup with them (it would be rude.) So, he manages to keep them deeply engaged in conversation until the sun rises and they all turn to stone. There goes that (really bizarre) concept that Thor is some big, dumb brute.

Midgard is the world of man. What we normally think of as the physical universe. The best way to put it would be: look around, here you are. The trolls, dwarves and elves (see part 3) often wander Midgard.

(3) The UPPER WORLDS:

Ljusalfheim
Vanaheim
Asgard

Ljusalfheim is the world of the elves, which intersects closely with Midgard, as the elves often travel the forests in Midgard to lure humans into flight and then let them fall. As I am sure you can guess, Ljusalfheim is the birthplace of inspiration and new ideas. While inspiration is certainly a wonderful thing there is also the danger of being so "lost" in the inspiration that one loses one's way home. (Thus the luring humans into flight and letting them fall - a metaphor for losing yourself in flights of fancy and crashing back to reality only after you have gotten too far "out there" to land safely.)

Vanaheim is the home of the Vanir (plural of Vana), the older gods. As such Vanaheim has close ties to both Ljusalfheim (Frej is king of the light elves) and Jotunheim. (All the Vanir are Jotun) Several of the Aesir were originally Vana, including Tyr, who was the original All-Father before being supplanted by Odin. (Looking for the documentation on that, it's been a few years, but I'm sure I can find it again.)

Asgard is the home of the younger gods, the Aesir (Odin et. al). With the exception of the hero-cycle gods (like Odin) all the Aesir are also Jotun. From Asgard a bridge descends (Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge) and depending on the story it descends either to Midgard or Jotunheim. Bifrost is protected by Heimdall, who stands watch with his trumpet at the end of the bridge closest to Asgard. It is Heimdall who blows his trumpet at the start of Ragnarok, which rends the skies and tears the mountains asunder. Heimdall is said to be able to hear the grass grow and see a sparrow beyond the edge of the horizon. Which, of course, means no travel to Asgard without invite, as sneaking in is right on out of there!

Anyway, I wish I could give you an easy answer re: the elements, but they all play into all the realms and the system just isn't set up elementally that way.

[Talkingfox]

I've started a new thread in Runes for exploration of the Aettir since it is a bit more OT there than here. They DO however cross reference IMO.

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=1067 (link added: m1thr0s)

Thanks for adding the link m1...I'm such a freaking Luddite....

[Ratatosk]

Another tree model I missed in the original post gives some more idea of how fluid this system can be, while still making utter sense.

[m1thr0s]

I want to add this link since it also discusses the 9 Heavens above Aasgard and seems to be a pretty good description:

http://www.kondor.de/runes/nineworlds.html

Anyway, I wish I could give you an easy answer re: the elements, but they all play into all the realms and the system just isn't set up elementally that way.it's actually ok...it's an extra boon if we can sort it out but if not it's not altogether crucial. There just happen to be some really strong parallels. The triple trinity for instance corresponds perfectly to the ordering of the ternary bigrams which group into 3 Yang (Heaven), 3 Jen (Man) and 3 Yin (Earth). Our elemental correlation doesn't have to break any bones to find a natural underscoring symmetry, so it's a remarkable thing no matter what.

It becomes a kind of excercise in information science in general scouting out all the various correlations...some will be very strong...others so-so...others not there at all. But even so the underscoring structure is virtually identical, so we are just dealing in semantic and artistic differences...and those are fun anyway.

So I want to look, but if we can't get a perfect elemental match, we're still going to find interesting stuff. This is one of those either-way-you-lose-you-win type finds! These are always especially fun to rip into...

we may wind up abandoning the four-elemental universe altogether and just start looking at 2's and 3's for instance. Right now I'd say that's a very likely possibilty.

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute......let me make sure I heard that correctly...the (I am assuming Futhark, just nibble on my toes if I'm being ignorant) runic system as we know it today is Etruscan in origin?

You'll get a kick out of the Negau Helmet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet)

Now, give me some walnuts and get back on topic :laugh:

[Ratatosk]

I want to add this link since it also discusses the 9 Heavens above Aasgard and seems to be a pretty good description:

http://www.kondor.de/runes/nineworlds.html

m1thr0s

Umm, wha? :confused:

Those names:
Vindlblain: Darkwind and Hregg-Mimir, Storm-Mimir
Andlang
Vidblain: Darkdistance
Vidfedmir: World-Encompasser
Hriod: Concealer
Hlyrnir: Twinlight
Gimir: fiery
Vet-Mimir: Winter-Mimir
Skatyrnir

All of those are names of giants from different sagas and poems. Not worlds "above" Asgard, although those giants are certainly outside Asgard. And as with all the giants that are called by name they are states of being or creation. But they aren't worlds. :no: All of the concepts expressed by the names of these giants fall within the realm of the Jotun. Jotunheim is incredibly mutable. (mmmm, mutable goo ...)

So, like the well of Mimir and the Norns, these are yet more Jotun concepts that are entirely outside the influence of the Aesir (who are not so mutable - more rigid really, like Teutonic social conventions)

Looking at the rest, um, does the phrase "New Age Drivel" mean anything? :rofl:

[m1thr0s]

ahhh...ok...that's why I need you guys!

what the f*ck do I know about giants! :no:

hehe...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

uh yeah...I read that gunk...why does he make Ljusalfheim sound like it's inhabited by Smurfs?????

[m1thr0s]

what...you never hear of the terrible smurfs? you guys need to get out more!

that's ok...wouldn't know if I didn't ask. This whole part of the world is just totally buried under layer upon layer of bs though...yet throughout it all there actually does appear to be life in there someplace...

pretty old life too...and tough...tough enough to have survived the harshest damn elements this world has to offer...

so...recommend some sites if you know of any!

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

The trolls, dwarves and elves (see part 3) often wander Midgard


As do some of the Aesir and the Vanir...usually cloaked.

[MythMath]

This is what I got when I googlemapped Ljusalfheim:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/SMURFVILLAGEsmall.jpg

http://hypercube.org/images/smurfmap1.jpg

________________________________________

________________________


Also, I came across this whilst a'rambling...

Secret of the Runes...

Check the song titles...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/Secret_of_the_Runes.png

Track listing:

"Ginnungagap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginnungagap) (Prologue)"
"Midgård (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midg%C3%A5rd)"
"Asgård (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asg%C3%A5rd)" sample (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Therion_-_asgard.ogg) (help (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_help)·info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Therion_-_asgard.ogg))
"Jotunheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jotunheim)"
"Schwarzalbenheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svartalfheim)"
"Ljusalfheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfheim)"
"Muspelheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muspelheim)"
"Nifelheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim)"
"Vanaheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanaheim)"
"Helheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28realm%29)"
"Secret of the Runes (Epilogue)"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_of_the_Runes_%28album%29

[Talkingfox]

I think I had posted this somewhere else...but worthy of a repost I think http://www.northvegr.org (http://www.northvegr.org/)

These folk are a bit hidebound and asa-centric but offer up FREE e-books and translations and old language dictionaries and really good reading lists and well researched articles andandandand. A truly remarkable resource.

Yeah there's been loads of bs, a lot of it recent. One cool thing is that some of the root stock of this system is STILL a viable living breathing culture (the Saami)

And because conversion came so very late (and mostly at swordpoint) to the Scandinavian cultures many of the sagas, runic poetry and skaldic verse manuscripts survived relatively intact.

Tough?? oh yes...and infinitely practical.

[MythMath]

Northvegr's logo is a swastika...

Is it a 'new' glyph or traditional...?

[m1thr0s]

wow...even Therion is into smurf magic...that's a surprize!

ahh well...so many apes and so few thoths...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

Northvegr's logo is a swastika...

Is it a 'new' glyph or traditional...?

Trad. Fylfot in Norsk

[Ratatosk]

This is what I got when I googlemapped Ljusalfheim:

:rofl: Aaaahaahaaahaahaaha! Ow, my belly....!

Also, I came across this whilst a'rambling...

Secret of the Runes...


Yeah, Therion (http://www.megatherion.com/) ROCKS! :cool: (heh - that album is playing right now in my house!) They are a combination of Metal and Opera, pretty much what Wagner would be doing if he were alive today.

Also, the lyricist is Thomas Karlsson (interview here (http://thor.megatherion.com/english/intervthomas.htm)), founder of the Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis (Dragon Rouge) (http://www.dragonrouge.net/)

These guys are totally into OTO, Setian and Norse themes, and amazing musicians to boot. And their lyrics have serious content. When we first heard the album, the song Jotunheim had us both with massive goose bumps and tears running down our face. Yes, their music is that powerful.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program . . .

[m1thr0s]

Ohhh...Therion is a band...ok...that's more forgiveable then...

Therion used to be this alien intelligence behind the Book of Thoth see...didn't know he'd taken up guitar...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Yeah, I remember the Fylfot, usually
shown with the truncated arms:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/RUNICTHOR.jpg

from: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/swastika/063.php

[MythMath]

Are you serious, did I really name the
album that you're listening to...?

Viva la 21st century...!

[Talkingfox]

Are you serious, did I really name the
album that you're listening to...?

Viva la 21st century...!

Yuppers you did...but then again it's in pretty regular rotation as of late

[Talkingfox]

Yeah, I remember the Fylfot, usually
shown with the truncated arms:



Sometimes but not always....depends on the carver usually. Sometimes it's curved as well. It's the balance of the movement that's more important w/ the fylfot

[MythMath]

Don't mean to tug this too far OT, but the cross
here is very similar to the Northvegr fylfot:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Vaksalastenen.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Vaksalastenen.jpg

Could you give us any details on its history...?

From what I read, this stone (Vaksala Runestone) dates from 11th c.
and so therefore this must be a 'post-christian' reference...?

[Talkingfox]

From what I read, this stone (Vaksala Runestone) dates from 11th c.
and so therefore this must be a 'post-christian' reference...?


yes but barely post-xtian. at that point you average sven schmuck was still heathen although his Jarl probably wasn't

[Talkingfox]

Don't mean to tug this too far OT, but the cross
here is very similar to the Northvegr fylfot:


Could you give us any details on its history...?

From what I read, this stone (Vaksala Runestone) dates from 11th c.
and so therefore this must be a 'post-christian' reference...?

ok sorry had to dig in my source stuff. It's in younger futhark and is a memorial stone...ie grave marker Says some stuff about lineage of the person and who's husband he was. Nothing juicy I'm afraid

[Talkingfox]

Hmm, okay, here goes:



J


Svartalfheim is the realm of dwarves and trolls, and intersects directly with Midgard. The trolls are always hungry, and known in the mythology for taking anything they want, with no remorse or regret. They are indiscriminate in their appetites. The dwarves are the crafters of all the tools and weapons the gods wield, bringing things into physical manifestation, but at a price. The dwarves are shrewd negotiators and (as in any monopoly) demand a high price for their work. Trolls and dwarves alike are unable to bear the light of the sun, so they stay in their underground realm during the day.




Ljusalfheim is the world of the elves, which intersects closely with Midgard, as the elves often travel the forests in Midgard to lure humans into flight and then let them fall. As I am sure you can guess, Ljusalfheim is the birthplace of inspiration and new ideas. While inspiration is certainly a wonderful thing there is also the danger of being so "lost" in the inspiration that one loses one's way home. (Thus the luring humans into flight and letting them fall - a metaphor for losing yourself in flights of fancy and crashing back to reality only after you have gotten too far "out there" to land safely.)




ok feeling a need to refine these concepts as the "between" worlds.

Swartzalf are mythologically supposed to be manifest just below the skin of Midgard and the inverse for the Ljusalf.

So what we have are twilight worlds: one that cannot bear full light, the other in perennial Northern summer where the sun never fully sets. Each is dependent on the other to come to full fruition.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Great work there with the triple trinity!
I can understand the problems with correlating elements, and I agree that it's probably better to skip that. There are similar problems in correlating Celtic stuff. At the end of the day not every magical concept has to be absolutely universal.
I didn't quite get why, for example, you'd burn up when in Muspelheim though. Why can't you just become a spirit of fire?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

PS

The Smurfs of Smurfheim were annhilated by UNICEF in 2005

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/375842382_e17427be3b_m.jpg

Holocaust of the Smurfs (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/08/wsmurf08.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/08/ixhome.html)

[Talkingfox]

At the end of the day not every magical concept has to be absolutely universal.
I didn't quite get why, for example, you'd burn up when in Muspelheim though. Why can't you just become a spirit of fire?

Because Muspel is a purely destructive force. "Fire" is a modified energy of muspel.
It takes the influence Of Niefl to slow Muspel down enough to even qualify as fire.

Niefl is, of course, the inverse.

[Talkingfox]

not "above" Asgard, although those giants are certainly outside Asgard. And as with all the giants that are called by name they are states
So, like the well of Mimir and the Norns, these are yet more Jotun concepts that are entirely outside the influence of the Aesir (who are not so mutable - more rigid really, like Teutonic social conventions)


One of the titles for the hall of Jotunheim is Utgard...roughly translated Out place or realm outside

[Ratatosk]

Yeah, I remember the Fylfot ...

Speaking of which, here is a model of the tree in action

[m1thr0s]

wow. now that's one I didn't see coming!
there's got to be a Lo Shu version of that too then...

edit: I just checked. it's interesting because in 4-elemental suits you get water + fire on one arm and air + earth on the other.
the elements of lingam - sun - moon - yoni are mutable however. lingam can represent either air or fire for instance, moon can be water or earth etc. So debatatably it should actually read fire + air + earth + water on both arms...

In at least some fractions of Buddhism, monks wear the 9 dots either on their foreheads or on the tops of their heads...
So the Swastika is clearly a way of expressing the Lo Shu Principle for these monks... It's probably the first thing they think of when you show them this symbol. Bizarre that I only just this minute recognized this!

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Maybe I need to go look at the Lo-Shu thread - I wasn't even aware quite how the Lo-Shu stacked up. :o_O:

[m1thr0s]

Here's a link: http://www.abrahadabra.com/LoShu001.htm
Bear in mind that there are something like 8 or 9 variations...

Curiously, it's another way of adding the magical square itself. Both arms = 25 in either directions.
5 is the mean of the Lo Shu so a venerated number. It's square would be a principle of extension. So the Swastika is expressing the Lo Shu "in extension"...radiating, like a star...

Pretty amazing Ratatosk. We've got some very tight coordination going on here both at Triangle & Square...

As a matter of form, the original Lo Shu Diagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu_Square) was expressed in a dot sequence:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Luo4shu1.jpg

Bigrams were added on sometime after...uncertain date.

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Very, very cool. Unfortunately, as happens so often - trying to fit the elemental aspects of the Lo Shu to the fylfot tree results in some incredibly strained associations.

To get an idea, this is the closest I could come without totally breaking the magic square.

Frankly, I'm not all that hip on the associations of Water:Asgard and Fire:Helheim

Of course, if we wanted to we could spew all sorts of bs about why it works that way, but it still wouldn't sit any better with me.

As was mentioned earlier - sometimes things from other systems fit, sometimes they don't. It's not the end of the world, but I would like to see anything else that anyone comes up with.

Hey - TF says to just get a bigger hammer. Hmm - maybe she can bang on this until it fits. :laugh:

[Talkingfox]

Nope ....reserving said hammer for my own head to try and get some of this in there

[m1thr0s]

I'm beginning to think it doesn't matter Ratatosk. You get what there is...not what you want there to be. There just happens to be some good (very good) structural synchronism without regards to elements per se.

There are also multiple ways of looking at "elements"...elements of mind, elements in art, thematic elements and so on. Any skillful alchemist would never be so anal as to confine himself to one definition only...we leave that preoccupation to chemists... The Chinese themselves did not use the 9 elemental system including fire, water, air, earth, sun, moon, lingam, yoni, spirit etc. This is a recent invention. The original ternary bigrams were classed as "portents" and were viewed differently...still "elements"...but along a different order and logic.

I also probably should have mentioned to you that that original Lo Shu Diagram is upside down from what most of the rest of the world uses as compass coordinates. They placed South in the Above...I can't recall the reason off-hand...I have turned this around to better correspond to the Tree of Life and other factors. Tantrically, it is adviseable that our Body of Light maps place Heaven in the Above - Man in the Middle - and Earth in the Below, so as to synchronize properly with our usual physical alignments.

We can't expect ancient cultures to automatically keep pace with whatever priorities may be unique to the modern world. It is vital that esoteric syncretists do not become historical revisionists in their fervor to substantiate their own theories. It simply isn't necessary and it does a great deal of harm. We can have it both ways. We can honor the past for what it was and also extrapolate from ancient knowledge to meet the demands of modern times. When we take the extra time to do this correctly we get the best of both worlds.

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

Umm, wha? :confused:

Those names:
Vindlblain: Darkwind and Hregg-Mimir, Storm-Mimir
Andlang
Vidblain: Darkdistance
Vidfedmir: World-Encompasser
Hriod: Concealer
Hlyrnir: Twinlight
Gimir: fiery
Vet-Mimir: Winter-Mimir
Skatyrnir



Ok I screwed up here...I was so busy frothing at the mouth over the Giant names that I missed 2 spheres that actually are.:o Andlang and Vidblain are considered backup 'heavens' held in reserve until after Ragnarok. Andlang is supposed to be south of and above Asgard (figure that one) and Vidblain still further above that. The only place they're mentioned is in the Voluspa....a relatively late piece. Nothing is really mentioned about their character much, except as kind of a reserve safety deposit box for the dead.

[m1thr0s]

so then these "higher heavens" do exist?

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

At least according to the Voluspa....I've never seen them mentioned anywhere else

[Talkingfox]

Just found a few sentences in the Gylfaginning too

"Then said Ganglere: Who guards this palace when Surt's fire burns up heaven and earth? Har answered: It is said that to the south and above this heaven is another heaven, which is called Andlang. But there is a third, which is above these, and is called Vidblain, and in this heaven we believe this mansion (Gimle) to be situated; but we deem that the light-elves alone dwell in it now."


That's all that's mentioned. This particular text is 12th cent. There's nada in the older texts like the Havamal.


EDIT: Ok spent some time w/ the original language text. I wouldn't put ANY weight to Vidblain. " I deem it dwelling place of light-elves" sniffs of a fantasists hope in the original kenning, especially since the author states it as a deduction of his own. If it was considered an actual sphere it would be stated -Here live the Ljusalf,- at least in Sturrlsons style of writing. Add to that ONLY Sturrlson mentions it...ever...

[m1thr0s]

hey, I'm looking for a nice place to rent cheap...maybe I'll give them the boot...
sounds a little ethereal though...might have to lose a few pounds.
I would imagine Vidblain has got Internet service, being a light realm and all...probably have these massive fiber-optic cables or something...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

So the Swastika is clearly a way of expressing the Lo Shu Principle for these monks...
It's probably the first thing they think of when you show them this symbol.
Bizarre that I only just this minute recognized this!

As soon as I saw Ratatosk's thumbnail I said to meself: wow,
I never noticed that, why hadn't I recognized the connection
in that recent, long thread dealing with all those swastikas...?

And weren't we just pondering, in another thread,
about other systems that were made up of 9 units...?

Right under our collective nose... :yes:

[m1thr0s]

yeah...especially since the arms have "magickal" properties both in elements and numbers. I don't miss that stuff very often. just goes to show you though how networks of people converging on things is so incredibly synchronistic. We're all pretty smart people but you put us all together on one topic and watch out world...literally anything might happen...

fascinating phenomenum really...very important...occultists sometimes miss all of that in their rush to become the ultimate sovereigns of their own respective universes...which is cool...but we're not there yet, and in the meantime, working together along certain fronts will get us all there much faster.

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

I would imagine Vidblain has got Internet service, being a light realm and all...probably have these massive fiber-optic cables or something...

Yeah but made by dwarves...so the surcharges are no doubt a real bitch...

And yeah, Isn't synergy a grand thing!

[MythMath]

http://www.musicpsyche.org/images/Journal%203%20images/mp3-Je1.gif
Nine dots as the St Andrews cross,
as basis for the Celtic Rose & Knot,
cross in the middle for the
classical
seven circuit labyrinth. http://www.musicpsyche.org/images/Journal%203%20images/mp3-Je2.gif
______________________________________________

[from:http://www.musicpsyche.org/Journal/mp3-Jewitt.htm}

[Talkingfox]

I also probably should have mentioned to you that that original Lo Shu Diagram is upside down from what most of the rest of the world uses as compass coordinates. They placed South in the Above...I can't recall the reason off-hand...

m1thr0s

So does the Norse model...hmmmm

[Kain]

I also probably should have mentioned to you that that original Lo Shu Diagram is upside down from what most of the rest of the world uses as compass coordinates. They placed South in the Above...I can't recall the reason off-hand...From what I recall it has partially to do with the notion that the South brings warm and pleasant wind that is related with Li (Fire) and thus Heaven while the North is cold and thus has a closer connection with Kun (Water) and Earth.

Interesting that the Norse model does this also.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

Yes, that's true Kain but it's still a little unusual for anybody in the northern hemisphere to place South in the above and North in the below. There was some special reason for this in terms of how Imperial China was structured which was deliberately structured around the Lo Shu itself, with eight provinces spread out evenly around the capital city at center. The explanation is somewhere in Wilhelms writings as I recall...I'll have to try to dig it out.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Yes, that's true Kain but it's still a little unusual for anybody in the northern hemisphere to place South in the above and North in the below. There was some special reason for this in terms of how Imperial China was structured which was deliberately structured around the Lo Shu itself, with eight provinces spread out evenly around the capital city at center. The explanation is somewhere in Wilhelms writings as I recall...I'll have to try to dig it out.Probably. I remember that there was a very particular relationship between the Lo Shu structure and the structure of Imperial China. I think that the explanation I offered was from Huang's Numerology of the I Ching but perhaps there was more information I don't recall. If you find it in Wilhelm's writings, I'd be interested to hear why m1thr0s.

Kain