View Full Version : Heathenism Basics
Ratatosk
01-31-2007, 03:13 AM
For those who are unaware, we are using the term here to refer to the Norse-based paths. Those paths which follow the wisdom in the old Icelandic sagas and Norse mythologies.
Why are we not saying Asatru, then? Well, for starters, the majority of Asatru (including every Asatru I have met personally) are trying to fit concepts into boxes which are the completely wrong design.
There are the "O Gods, you are so big and powerful, please don't crush us under your mighty hand" types - which is totally wrong for the entire Norse mindset. Keep in mind that you are dealing with Giants here, Giants that can slay even bigger Giants, and having a spine is a pre-requisite. Groveling and mewling is not fit for a warrior, and in this path you have to be willing to take on that role.
Then there are the types that take Wiccan ritual and replace the names of the deities with names of Norse deities. Do I even have to go into how rude that is? Granted, there are some conceptual similarities that one will find between the Norse gods and those of other cultures, but that is rather like going into a Synagogue, laying out your prayer mat facing Mecca and replacing the title Allah with Abba (Father) but leaving the rest in place. Rude!
With that said, here are some starting points:
there is a strong push to self-reliance first, before asking for divine assistance.
runic work (of which divination is somewhere around 1/4 of it) is a major part of Heathenism (see http://forums.../showthread.php?t=1067 (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1067))
being attuned to the spirit of place, knowing the wights and what they expect where you live.
a serious look at how you live your life - are you doing everything you can to make yourself the best you can be - physically, mentally, emotionally, magickally, artistically and spiritually?
personal honor is very important. This honor is not what is usually ascribed that title in this culture. Being a doormat is not honorable. Doing the proper thing, in it's proper time (even if it is something others may perceive as a "negative" act) is honorable
one's Wyrd plays a major part in Heathenism. Wyrd is the fate that is woven by the Norns - those things we must face. The trick is to accept the fact that you have to face it and then do so bravely.
Ragnarok is a crucial part of this path. And this is where most of the Asatru fall down again - Ragnarok, like the Christian Mystics take on Armageddon, is not a physical "end of the world," but a personal transformation through fire to becoming a perfected being.Well, there is tons more, and in the coming days I am sure this become evident. For now I am fighting sleep, but he has a firm grip on my eyelids and won't let go.
A good starting point is http://www.northvegr.org/ - read with a bit of caution, though, while there is a great deal of "raw" information available there (including original language copies of the eddas and so forth) their take tends toward the Asatru/literal Ragnarok even bordering on fundamentalist in some spots. However, the 30 Praiseworthy Virtues (http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/praiseworthy.php) are pretty decent. Notice that they aren't commandments, or requirements, or anything of the sort, just that they are praiseworthy.
Disclaimer: I am not now nor have I ever been a rigid, fundamentalist, Asatru nazi-type.
Talkingfox
01-31-2007, 03:31 AM
Disclaimer: I am not now nor have I ever been a rigid, fundamentalist, Asatru nazi-type.
Nope ..none of that:no:
How about Lokist?? :p
Talkingfox
01-31-2007, 04:03 AM
I'd like to add one more important aspect to the description that Ratatosk gave and that is the concept of ones Desir (ancestral spirits) In the Nordic view all who came before you are aspected WITHIN you and are given the appropriate nods....not unlike some eastern and shamanic worldviews.
Ci Celli Ddu
01-31-2007, 02:32 PM
Why are we not saying Asatru, then? Well, for starters, the majority of Asatru (including every Asatru I have met personally) are trying to fit concepts into boxes which are the completely wrong design.
They sound like Neo-Druids and "Celtic" Wiccans, grrr
***Imagines a scene from Conan***
Talkingfox
01-31-2007, 07:14 PM
They sound like Neo-Druids and "Celtic" Wiccans, grrr
Um yeah..and add a dose of stage costuming to that....to include but not limited to a Spear and Magic Helmet. :laugh: Wash the whole thing down with much beer and junk food.
On a more serious note..I think one of the major diffs between Heathen approach and others is a kind of built in trend to Autotheism.
The 'gods' are seen as pervasive rather than limited to spheres of being.
That pervasiveness is extended to the idea of desir. One of the common titles for gods is "Elder Kin" implying direct relation.
So...respected and called on for advice as one does a venerated Elder.
In practical application the gods are often regarded as something to be endured rather than implicitly trusted.....not unlike the unemployed second cousin one has that won't get off your couch.
In personal practice I find that the Nordic forms are a piece of cake to invoke, but are a bit more tricksy to work with. Stuff often has a "monkeys paw" kind of quality to it and that the Asa and Vana (less so than the Asa) behave far more like Loa than like traditional "godforms" Not so with the Jotun....
Ratatosk
01-31-2007, 07:28 PM
In practical application the gods are often regarded as something to be endured rather than implicitly trusted.....not unlike the unemployed second cousin one has that won't get off your couch.
:rofl: Now, um, how do I explain a blurt of laughter to my boss, huh?:p
Ci Celli Ddu
01-31-2007, 07:58 PM
Um yeah..and add a dose of stage costuming to that....
Still sounding like Neo-druids on that count...:laugh:
On a more serious note..I think one of the major diffs between Heathen approach and others is a kind of built in trend to Autotheism.
The 'gods' are seen as pervasive rather than limited to spheres of being.
That pervasiveness is extended to the idea of desir. One of the common titles for gods is "Elder Kin" implying direct relation.
So...respected and called on for advice as one does a venerated Elder.
...sounds familiar...
In practical application the gods are often regarded as something to be endured rather than implicitly trusted.....not unlike the unemployed second cousin one has that won't get off your couch.
:rofl: ...wait a minute, that was me!!! :o
Ratatosk
01-31-2007, 11:14 PM
A point I seemed to have missed in the original post is this:
the Norse path is in many ways far more left-hand path than right-hand.
But, then again, TF beat me to the punch on that one with the mention of the trending toward Autotheism, huh?
Nuhad418
02-01-2007, 08:44 AM
Then there are the types that take Wiccan ritual and replace the names of the deities with names of Norse deities. Do I even have to go into how rude that is? Granted, there are some conceptual similarities that one will find between the Norse gods and those of other cultures, but that is rather like going into a Synagogue, laying out your prayer mat facing Mecca and replacing the title Allah with Abba (Father) but leaving the rest in place. Rude!
Thank you very much for this post Ratatosk. From my researches into Heathanism and Asatru I was starting to worry that the Northern gods do nothing but incite the collection of hand guns and the segregation of society based on bloodline.
I just wanted to mention something in relation to the above citation. One of the things I like about Heathenry is the refreshing "uniqueness" granted to the gods rather than they representing an image of a underlying unity. I find this refreshing because I have just spent the past 6 years working on my PhD that focuses on Jung's analytical psychology. However, it is to Jung's understanding of archetypes that I turn now.
On a pragmatic and ritualistic level what you say is absolutely right. It is rude to impose your beliefs on another or remain ignorant of another's worldview. If I took a strict Asatru oath of dedication I could not, in good faith, cast a Wiccan circle...it would just not work. So too, if a neo-Druid came to a blot (let's assume I could even bring myself to bleed an animal!) and began to begin a ritual that he/she was used to without mentioning it to me ahead of time I would feel that they over-stepped their bounds. Seems to me too many people are caught up with their rights and ignore how those rights may impinge on those of others. Rudeness is a word most occultists seem to ignore...IMVHO.
Now, if we take the gods to be other than ontological entities (and I have ssen you use the term "forms") then a comparison of various pantheons is natural. If they are forms (archetypal images, symbols, metaphors) of the psyche then they are all useful to some degree. If a Christian dreams of Ganesh without ever having studied Hindusim then that person should pay attention to why that symbol was revealed by the unconscious.
In some ways the Wiccan view of "source= god + goddess" is psychologically viable. Unfortunately, from a psychological perpsective, there is the tendency to literalise the "source" part of the equation. By allowing ourselves to amplify our experiences with the gods we can come to a fuller view of ourselves and our connection to the word.
In sum, "rude" should be added to the general occult lexicon (especially when it comes to one's actions--rude is connected to lack of respect) and one's gods should be respected by oneself and by others. However, there is wisdom, from at least an analytical psychological perspective, to being open to connections with other pantheon and cultures.
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For those who find my use of Jungian terminology difficult I include definitions:
Amplification. A method of association based on the comparative study of mythology, religion and fairy tales, used in the interpretation of images in dreams and drawings.
-------------------------------------
Archetypal image. The form or representation of an archetype in consciousness. (See also collective unconscious.) [The archetype is] a dynamism which makes itself felt in the numinosity and fascinating power of the archetypal image.["On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 414.]Archetypal images, as universal patterns or motifs which come from the collective unconscious, are the basic content of religions, mythologies, legends and fairy tales. An archetypal content expresses itself, first and foremost, in metaphors. If such a content should speak of the sun and identify with it the lion, the king, the hoard of gold guarded by the dragon, or the power that makes for the life and health of man, it is neither the one thing nor the other, but the unknown third thing that finds more or less adequate expression in all these similes, yet-to the perpetual vexation of the intellect-remains unknown and not to be fitted into a formula.["The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 267]On a personal level, archetypal motifs are patterns of thought or behavior that are common to humanity at all times and in all places. For years I have been observing and investigating the products of the unconscious in the widest sense of the word, namely dreams, fantasies, visions, and delusions of the insane. I have not been able to avoid recognizing certain regularities, that is, types. There are types of situations and types of figures that repeat themselves frequently and have a corresponding meaning. I therefore employ the term "motif" to designate these repetitions. Thus there are not only typical dreams but typical motifs in dreams. . . . [These] can be arranged under a series of archetypes, the chief of them being . . . the shadow, the wise old man, the child (including the child hero), the mother ("Primordial Mother" and "Earth Mother") as a supraordinate personality ("daemonic" because supraordinate), and her counterpart the maiden, and lastly the anima in man and the animus in woman.["The Psychological Aspects of the Kore," ibid., par. 309.]--------------------------------
Archetype. Primordial, structural elements of the human psyche. (See also archetypal image and instinct.) Archetypes are systems of readiness for action, and at the same time images and emotions. They are inherited with the brain structure-indeed they are its psychic aspect. They represent, on the one hand, a very strong instinctive conservatism, while on the other hand they are the most effective means conceivable of instinctive adaptation. They are thus, essentially, the chthonic portion of the psyche . . . that portion through which the psyche is attached to nature.["Mind and Earth," CW 10, par. 53.] It is not . . . a question of inherited ideas but of inherited possibilities of ideas. Nor are they individual acquisitions but, in the main, common to all, as can be seen from [their] universal occurrence.["Concerning the Archetypes and the Anima Concept," CW 9i, par. 136.]
Archetypes are irrepresentable in themselves but their effects are discernible in archetypal images and motifs. Archetypes . . . present themselves as ideas and images, like everything else that becomes a content of consciousness.[On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 435.] Archetypes are, by definition, factors and motifs that arrange the psychic elements into certain images, characterized as archetypal, but in such a way that they can be recognized only from the effects they produce.["A Psychological Approach to the Trinity," CW 11, par. 222, note 2.]
Jung also described archetypes as "instinctual images," the forms which the instincts assume. He illustrated this using the simile of the spectrum. The dynamism of instinct is lodged as it were in the infra-red part of the spectrum, whereas the instinctual image lies in the ultra-violet part. . . . The realization and assimilation of instinct never take place at the red end, i.e., by absorption into the instinctual sphere, but only through integration of the image which signifies and at the same time evokes the instinct, although in a form quite different from the one we meet on the biological level.["On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 414.]http://www.psychceu.com/Jung/lexarchetype.gif
Psychologically . . . the archetype as an image of instinct is a spiritual goal toward which the whole nature of man strives; it is the sea to which all rivers wend their way, the prize which the hero wrests from the fight with the dragon.[Ibid., par. 415.]Archetypes manifest both on a personal level, through complexes, and collectively, as characteristics of whole cultures. Jung believed it was the task of each age to understand anew their content and their effects. We can never legitimately cut loose from our archetypal foundations unless we are prepared to pay the price of a neurosis, any more than we can rid ourselves of our body and its organs without committing suicide. If we cannot deny the archetypes or otherwise neutralize them, we are confronted, at every new stage in the differentiation of consciousness to which civilization attains, with the task of finding a new interpretation appropriate to this stage, in order to connect the life of the past that still exists in us with the life of the present, which threatens to slip away from it.["The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 267.]
Ci Celli Ddu
02-01-2007, 09:11 AM
Thank you very much for this post Ratatosk. From my researches into Heathanism and Asatru I was starting to worry that the Northern gods do nothing but incite the collection of hand guns and the segregation of society based on bloodline.
...and Ive noticed they have a tendency of speaking of the "Norse (or Germanic) - Celtic Bloodline". You what???!!! Buy a freakin encyclopedia or something for f___s sake!!! Just because they came over here doesn't make us family for crying out loud! As if having Neo-druids wasn't bad enough...
Talkingfox
02-01-2007, 09:14 PM
Great points y'all!
I personally have no problem with applying Nordic deities to other ritual forms as move the individual but I really believe that the formats in current use must be tweaked to allow for the differences.
The Nordic way is far more shamanic than ceremonial , regardless of what
some groups would put out there as 'traditional'. Historically speaking there was no societal role of 'priesthood' within the Norse. Personal dedications? Yes. Societal role of priest and all that entails? No.
Why? Because in a harsh environment with a very limited growing season working hands cannot be spared for a non-physically productive task.
I think the biggest point in working w/ the heathen system is understanding the importance of the WORD. More specifically of ones own word.
Here are some areas where I think tweaks are a good idea.
Don't call it a blot, frinstance unless there actually IS some
We're back to the strength of the individual's word here. If you're using a stand in for blood state it as such. A good kenning could be useful.
Anything less screams LIAR and opens up a whole other can o' worms as far as invocations go. Could get real messy real quick.
Make sure of familiarity with aspecting when invoking
The Norse forms tend to be pretty convoluted. Odin alone has upwards of 47 titles., each a different aspect. There are also forms with direct ties to the Jotun which are a bitch to control even in the most tightly wired individual workings.
The function of the priest/priestess means little :no:
I think this is where the group model falls flat. The Nordic deities are geared to very direct, often very physical, interaction with individuals. Pulling them into a circle that encompasses everyone within it makes that everyone fair game. ok...so the priest/priestess is well armed...but what about this bit over here? Hard on noobs or those less than familiar with the forms, that. A circle WITHIN the main seems to be called for here, maybe?
In dealing (or often double dealing) with the Nordic Pantheon, things are almost never as they seem on the surface, not unlike the kennings in the sagas. The pantheon also tends to be pushy, demanding and prone to trying to impose impossible- to -fufill -the terms-of dealmaking with hidden clauses.
Solution?
MY HOUSE MY RULES BOOT TO THE HEAD :mmad:
Hmmmm I do feel a need to mention the importance of not writing a check with one's mouth that one's ass can't cash. It is the nature of these forms to test weaponry and to test hard.
Ratatosk
02-01-2007, 10:00 PM
Historically speaking there was no societal role of 'priesthood' within the Norse. ...
The role of godhi/gydja is very important in Norse society, but it is not, like priesthood, a "full time job," as it were. In day-to-day dealings the godhi or gydja was a farmer, shepherd, boatwright, or whatever they did to keep their ducks in a row. (For a good example of this see The Saga of Hrafnkel Frej's Godhi - it can be found in "The Sagas of Icelanders" Edited by Örnólfur Thorsson, Penguin Classics, ISBN:0-670-88990-3)
Ratatosk
02-01-2007, 11:03 PM
I just wanted to mention something in relation to the above citation. One of the things I like about Heathenry is the refreshing "uniqueness" granted to the gods rather than they representing an image of a underlying unity.
That's a very astute way of phrasing that, Nuhad. The gods are "unique" - in fact, depending on the particular poem or saga one is reading, there are some total (seeming) incongruities in their actions. They are not portrayed as perfect, but are, in fact, afflicted with the same flaws and subject to the same foibles as man.
In some ways the Wiccan view of "source= god + goddess" is psychologically viable. Unfortunately, from a psychological perpsective, there is the tendency to literalise the "source" part of the equation. By allowing ourselves to amplify our experiences with the gods we can come to a fuller view of ourselves and our connection to the word.
Hear, hear! It seems (IMO) that literalization of anything occult/religious/spiritual/intuitive what have you, is the quickest way to miss the point entirely.
In sum, "rude" should be added to the general occult lexicon ...
Definitely! (And, um, could we add it to the general American lexicon as well?):p
Nuhad418
02-02-2007, 07:39 AM
MY HOUSE MY RULES BOOT TO THE HEAD :mmad:
Funny, with the limited contact I have had with the deities (ritually or otherwise) I am exceptionally cautious with my wording. Having a wee bit of Loki like portions to me (feranaja can attest to that!) I have an innate not distrust but dis-ease with what I say and how I say it; not out of fear of retribution from the gods but that I may have just screwed myself! I had the same feeling when I "accidentally" started a shrine to the Baron Samdhi that opened the flood gates to the ancestors and finally lead me here. The lao had the same sort of feel...in my experience anyway. You really do need to set boundaries around yourself in word and deed.
Coyote426
07-27-2007, 12:47 AM
runic work (of which divination is somewhere around 1/4 of it) is a major part of Heathenism (see http://forums.../showthread.php?t=1067 (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1067))This is an opinion I've found rarely expressed in the Heathen community. In fact I've seen many who explicity have no interest in runic work at all, preferring a more religious Heathenism approach. Do you feel that this is where we see the difference between Asatru as a religion and Heathenism as a way of life?
Ratatosk
07-29-2007, 12:02 AM
[/list]This is an opinion I've found rarely expressed in the Heathen community. In fact I've seen many who explicity have no interest in runic work at all, preferring a more religious Heathenism approach. Do you feel that this is where we see the difference between Asatru as a religion and Heathenism as a way of life?
That is exactly where we see the difference. The willingness to dig in and really understand a thing (Heathenism) versus the ready acceptance of anything proffered as 'scripture' (too many Asatru). In fact, I put them right up there with the 'Moon-day-go-to-circle Pagans'.
Of course, anyone who reads my posts here on AF knows how I feel about 'Religion' in my Heathenism. In fact, I feel like religion is the source of most of the suffering on this planet. (These are my opinions, there are many like them but these are mine)
deviadah
07-29-2007, 03:36 AM
In fact, I feel like religion is the source of most of the suffering on this planet.
Oh mine too:
:dogma:=:shitstorm:
By the way you and Talkingfox talk a lot about Norse related stuff... does either of you understand or speak Icelandic, or any of the Scandinavian languages? There are a great many texts in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish I could otherwise bring up. Also a great many runic stones!
Talkingfox
07-29-2007, 04:49 AM
OOooooo more texts please! If There are no translations available I'm willing to sit down and do that if the info is stuff I've not seen!
I can pick my way around a bit , but no real conversational fluency....yet.
Fortunately a lot of the academic stuff ( especially from the University of Stockholm) has also been published in English for us poorly educated US types
Thanks deviadah!
deviadah
07-29-2007, 01:01 PM
OT: There is an old town about 40 km north of Stockholm called Sigtuna. It has a very nice history. READ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Sigtuna) some.
The cool think is the town was founded a 1000 years ago, and still functional. I was once a postman there and the area is scattered with runic stones and old graves, houses, ruins, monestaries etc...
http://www.batangabee.com/travel/images/sigtuna_street.jpg
Ratatosk
07-29-2007, 02:20 PM
Oh mine too:
:dogma:=:shitstorm:
By the way you and Talkingfox talk a lot about Norse related stuff... does either of you understand or speak Icelandic, or any of the Scandinavian languages? There are a great many texts in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish I could otherwise bring up. Also a great many runic stones!
I'm with TF on this one - I do speak a bit of German, though. (I lived in the Stuttgart area for 5 years - Esslingen and then Ludwigsburg - so, as they say in those parts "I sproch Schwabisch, ond du?" - however I am more than a little out of practice.)
I am also with TF on the idea that if we need to we'll spend the time with a lexicon and translate it first word-for-word, then tease out the phrases, idioms and vernacular and get to the meaning behind the words. It takes time, but it's worth it. :yes:
I know that Icelandic is considered one of the hardest languages to learn but I do think I need to learn it if for no reason other than to be able to read the sagas and eddas in their original language.
Ci Celli Ddu
07-29-2007, 02:35 PM
I know that Icelandic is considered one of the hardest languages to learn.
Don't believe the hype. Grammaticaly it's just German with a few extra consonants. i.e. youve got your nominative, your dative, your genitive and your accusative. That's four cases, just like German. Slavic languages like Polish have around 15 cases, and don't even get me started on Finnish!
Ratatosk
07-29-2007, 03:49 PM
Don't believe the hype. Grammaticaly it's just German with a few extra consonants. i.e. youve got your nominative, your dative, your genitive and your accusative. That's four cases, just like German. Slavic languages like Polish have around 15 cases, and don't even get me started on Finnish!
Yeah, those crazy Finno-Ugric languages ...
That's why I said one of the hardest - I guess the difficult part is the pronunciation - it's a real tongue-buster.
Talkingfox
07-29-2007, 06:01 PM
The cool think is the town was founded a 1000 years ago, and still functional. I was once a postman there and the area is scattered with runic stones and old graves, houses, ruins, monestaries etc...
Thanks deviadah! It's nice to see pics of places that I'd read of in the sagas!
deviadah
07-29-2007, 08:00 PM
Actually the hardest is Danish (takes the longest time for children to learn). It is because they swallow the words before they've said them. An English equivelant would be: Good Morning Sir = Go Morn S
Although Icelandic is not a walk in the park. It kind of depends, though, on what your native tounge is and how difficult you have with å, ä ,ö and such letters. But since, I guess, you want to know what a text is saying rather than actually saying it perhaps this does not matter at all.
Are you two (Ratatosk + Talkingfox) some sort of Rune Buster Crew?
And why the focus on Iceland? I am no expert in this field, nor really even a novice, so that is why I ask. Doesn't Scandinavia have the same Sagas?
Sidenote: In Sweden the Hammer of Thor have been adopted by the neo-Nazis.. what morons!
Talkingfox
07-30-2007, 01:15 AM
Are you two (Ratatosk + Talkingfox) some sort of Rune Buster Crew?
And why the focus on Iceland? I am no expert in this field, nor really even a novice, so that is why I ask. Doesn't Scandinavia have the same Sagas?
Sidenote: In Sweden the Hammer of Thor have been adopted by the neo-Nazis.. what morons!
:rofl: Rune busters...that's great. And no at least I'm not.
The Northern climes have just been my area of study for a very long time and one thing leads to another as far as research and whatnot goes; add to that a wee dash of Obsessive Compulsive and well....
The focus on Iceland isn't so much that it's all that different in terms of the myths and what not it's that the written proofs persisted much longer and were better preserved than anywhere else. This is no doubt due to relative isolation. When one is dealing with a mostly oral tradition any written matter that is contemporary to the period studied is like gold.
The Icelandic myths ARE the Scandinavian myths, brought when the island was settled.
Add to that that modern Icelandic is very close to Old Norse to the point that if one can read modern Icelandic the original materials can be read without much difficulty.
Yeah I'd heard about the neo-nazi thing....morons indeed!
deviadah
07-30-2007, 01:42 AM
Why don't they use this as their symbol instead:
http://www.xerratus.com/content/binary/head-up-ass.jpg
Talkingfox
08-02-2007, 07:47 AM
ROFLMAO deviadah, I'll have you know that right before you posted this Ratatosk and I were discussing the need to remove symbols like the fylfot (swastika) from people like these and replace it with a more fitting one...namely the ass hat.
deviadah
08-02-2007, 01:38 PM
Yes... and it is not only the Swastika the Nazi's used but also many other runes, as you may know. Recently read a book on this. Let me give you an abbreviated list:
http://reibert.info/ss/03/02/illustr/images/08.gifThe Eif-Rune = worn by Hitler's personal adjutants.
http://reibert.info/ss/03/02/illustr/images/02.gifThe Sonnenrad = Used by the 5th Panzer Division.
http://reibert.info/ss/03/02/illustr/images/09.gifThe Leben-Rune = Symbol of the society that cared for the illegitimate children of SS men.
http://reibert.info/ss/03/02/illustr/images/14.gifThe Odal-Rune = adopted by the SS Race and Settlement Office, and by the 7th SS Freiwilligen Gebirgs.
http://reibert.info/ss/03/02/illustr/images/03.gifThe Sig-Rune = represented vitory but was supposedly invented in 1932 and not a real Rune...?
Talkingfox
08-02-2007, 03:49 PM
Yes... and it is not only the Swastika
http://reibert.info/ss/03/02/illustr/images/03.gifThe Sig-Rune = represented vitory but was supposedly invented in 1932 and not a real Rune...?
Yeah I knew...BUT Sig IS a real rune. Sig, Sigal, Suwelo (in the 3 most common translations) is a solar rune and indicative of elemental fire, strength, victory and all that other solar kind of stuff.
Oh yeah...and the letter S as well.
deviadah
08-02-2007, 04:44 PM
This thread really turned into a hotch-potch of Runic stuff...
:laugh:
Kuroyagi
08-02-2007, 04:49 PM
so Im curious: is that "S" rune the pictogram of a lighting-bolt striking down (cause thats what it looks like)...
deviadah
08-02-2007, 05:16 PM
As a non-rune expert I think I know the answer: Yes!
Ratatosk
08-04-2007, 02:37 PM
so Im curious: is that "S" rune the pictogram of a lighting-bolt striking down (cause thats what it looks like)...
Actually, the answer to that may yet be in dispute. The common scholarly answer, though, is no. The runes are actually adaptations of Etruscan script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Italic_alphabet#The_Etruscan_alphabet). The earliest known Germanic language engraving (actually a Germanic name) was found in Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet), in Etruscan script and dates to the second century BC.
The (no doubt) romanticized version of the story of Wotan (the Jarl, not the god) goes something like this:
Wotan was overthrown by one of his thanes and forced from his homelands. He was captured by Etruscans and made a slave. As a slave, he learned the Etruscan language, and was also taught how to write. Some time after this he was either released or escaped, and returned to his homelands. He began to gather followers and thanes, by showing them this magical ability of making "words that stay" using his "secret" (another meaning of the word rune, itself). As word of this magic spread more and more followers joined him until he retook his old position, and took over all the surrounding Jarldoms.
Ok, the reality of it is this: we know almost nothing of the beginning and spread of the runes in terms of who (as individuals). We do know that they came from Etruscan script first and didn't mature into the Germanic runes until sometime later. Point: the Etruscan civilization was from around 1200 BC to around 100 BC
Point: the earliest known Runic inscription (a comb found in Denmark) was from (if I remember correctly) around 160 AD.
deviadah
08-05-2007, 08:22 AM
The common scholarly answer, though, is no.
:bowdown:
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