The Suites and Unconventional Elements

[Naomi]

Uncommon sense hopefully. But I read that association too. It was in a book called 'high magick ritual' or something of the sort. GD style ceremonial magick... Anyhow the authors contended that the wand for fire/sword for air association was a blind, and that the two should be reversed. Anyways, I had progressed far enough along in Hermetics to not really want to switch, and had read enough chaos magick not to really believe in absolutes, so I kept up with the common interpretation, which works very well for me... I am curious as to why you feel the opposite attribution is more attractive to women... that's an interesting take on it...

-Ibisis

Well I'm so used to using swords as fire I had forgotten most people use sword as the air symbol! To me, air is not cutting or destructive. A sword is a tool for killing as far as I'm concerned, and not a tool of communication and intellect. As for sex-based interpretations, a wand well, let's face it, it's a penis, or lingam. So I suppose that probably is a good argument for wands being associated with light/fire. Yet...when I see wands depicted they often have leaves sprouting from them, or they are almost always made of wood. Doesn't it seem weird that they are usually made of the very thing fire eats? Perhaps that's right - wooden wands can be lit afire just as cups can contain water.

SO my argument for swords being associated with fire is that swords can both destroy or protect. I use wands for air because I feel that wands, being made of trees which are closely connected to the air as recyclers and reaching high into the sky, act as conduits between the mind and the physical world. You always see wands being used in popular media as being able to channel magic and act as a bridge. To me air acts as a bridge between the worlds, communicating . I really don't see how swords does that at the moment.

Another thing I notice is that the hilt of a sword already represents a wand, I think that symbolizes that intellect usually drives action. Now that I've been mulling this over I probably I could do without four suites and just go with yin and yang, or fire and water. Like the trigram system of the iching, where three only exists in the three line count of the binary language.

Hmm, yes I think I really prefer to see air emerging like this rather than have a whole suite to itself. I feel it should be much more intangible. Earth is another matter entirely.

Probably what I would do to try this out is eliminate wands (or swords) and pentacles in favor of two suites only for fire and water and just use the major arcana as earth....makes sense to me at the moment but I'll have to test it and count the number of cards.

Also personally, to solve problems I use action and destruction...not logic. I act before I think and use logic to clean up the aftermath. I associate this with swords probably out of the psychological reasonings, I don't have male strength because I'm missing testosterone and a penis so a dagger may mean something to my brain that is quite different, that's what I meant...

[Hairetikos]

The sword is an instrument of cleavage. It is the mind which makes distinctions, which discriminates and reasons, this is why the sword symbolizes the penetrating intellect of the mind. This is how I understand it, at least.

The wand seems obvious to me, with the fiery passion of sexuality hinted at by its shape. Also the tree association seems fitting to this too, as the wand represents the generative, creative force, that which creates new life, and trees often being linked with ideas of life, growth, etc.

That's my present take on it.

[Kuroyagi]

yeah why not? sometimes its very productive to throw away ALL tradition. Doing that I wouldnt equal swords with air and neither with fire...cause swords are primarily made of pure STEEL.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/adc/10102058A~Arnold-Schwarzenegger-Conan-the-Barbarian-Posters.jpg

and thereby would be earth-elemental. yet if you look at the discs theyre much more like frisbees or UFOs so they would be air then. I would exchange those two!

somehow I think youre right. to me fire and water are also the more fundamental elements. the only prob as Pythagoras and m1thr0s would tell you is that at some point in any creational process you must expand on them and since the one and all of such a process is ideally expressed in not more and not less than in 4s youd need to go beyond the two, anyway.

[Naomi]

Ha wow you might be right on those little discs being like frisbees!

Well what about positive and negative water/fire, that would equal four.

But all of these symbols make little sense. Why not just use universal symbols for gas, solid, liquid and plasma? May not be correct but possibly more forward thinking than manmade tools, sort of push the boundaries there. I mean, older is not necessarily better, and the past isn't unchangeable or unable to improve upon.

Maybe we could even add two new suites, strange matter and B.E. condensates. lol...

Yes they are probably able to be classified under the classical esoteric elements so it wouldn't be right either.

All of the classical symbols are made of the earth element. It's crazy!

[MythMath]

Go for it, Naomi...

It seems like you are at the brink of breaking
through with your new deck design...

I can't wait to see it... ;)
________________

Your instincts are correct in wanting to address those
'elements' in other decks that do not feel right for you...

Pick any of your potential systems and print out
a few key cards to get the feel for your choice...

You'll quickly refine it down, and a deck will be born...

Do you have (some of) the art ready yet, or are
you still in a pre-planning/conceptual mode...?

[Kuroyagi]

Well what about positive and negative water/fire, that would equal four.

But all of these symbols make little sense. Why not just use universal symbols for gas, solid, liquid and plasma? May not be correct but possibly more forward thinking than manmade tools, sort of push the boundaries there. I mean, older is not necessarily better, and the past isn't unchangeable or unable to improve upon.

Maybe we could even add two new suites, strange matter and B.E. condensates. lol...

Yes they are probably able to be classified under the classical esoteric elements so it wouldn't be right either.

All of the classical symbols are made of the earth element. It's crazy! sure I understand you: its all been done done done³! its frustrating and boring and idiotic!
The positive and negative fire/water is the emperor/empress-high priest/ess. you can make it as unearthly as you want- you can make it ice cold objective- you could use no persons no humans but symbols or planets or light-quantums, balck holes and attraction/dispersion itself....or light and dark- but still you would have to ask yourself: who is seeing these things in this light? where am I living and why are those all somehow earthen symbols? it is I who is doing those observations- and: who is this "I"?

you can twist and turn and be a god and a beast and a demon but at the end of the day you'll still be thrown back to your own incarnation- to your own humanity. you may have lived "gazillion years" and you maybe will live another gazillion- but that does help you only a little NOW. thats why I am ALWAYS going on full integretion in every "densening".

you can make it endlessly complicated but since the topic itself and the things you wanna achieve with it is already very complicated in itself, its wise to look for the easiest system there is- and that the I Ching (maybe). (and lets see: I have also mentally bookmarked this one here).

Another wise thing is to understand humans as far as possible. and thats what I do. its primarily done by mirroring: looking at others and thereby coming to grips with oneself. I want to get to know all human forms: via internet, in bed or the girl that serves me the crepes and cafe. this is the second part- its the "red" part, so to speak; and those two-8 "system and experience") have to be synergetically combined in order to know what to aim for- so that you know what to transcend.

youre right by doing this I may be cutting myself off from other past affiliations but here Im using markers and other tricks and pointers that I left "up there"- so its basically not THAT bad. yet it will pay manyfold with more depth and sublimity of my selves, when one is always "hardcore".

yes...Im human-all too human, meaning that Im even more human than the humans know to be themselves. (btw, I value Nietzsche who wrote this. primarily because he was one of the most truthful and honest men- viz honest to himself which is rare and counts a lot in my book! and thats why he is one of the most misused, the most misunderstood and the most despised philosophers of our times. and thats also why he is the most influential.

So Im researching the conditio humana- cause being human as a human makes one also more beautiful:
I have a friend who sometimes comes to visit me. hes a cool guy but a bit difficult of character, yet very much like myself. only one year ago he wasnt that cool, though cause he somehow was uncomfortable with his own cat-hood. he was somehow too reluctant too ponderous and much too serious for a cat- I mean serious over a longer period of time (also he didnt know the limits of his physicality). but since then he grew so much!- now hes still a queer character- this was always how he was, his "ens" and being- but hes so much more beautiful by being thus: hes "nothing but what he is" (in his nature). (lets say seems to be.)

maybe this will all change in a short time, though. and then I'll be the propagator of something else.

"Happy Birthday. You're gonna die!"

[Naomi]

Ah! Kuroyagi! You watched Metalocalypse!!!! Hurrah!

But as for the rest of your post, I think you've just made me want to throw away my tarot deck and my tarot project! I'm not sure if humanity needs it anymore! I'll get over it though.

I think that there's some secret in the original Hermes deck I just don't see yet.

At the end there ou seem to be describing a couple of people *I* know, though I'm not so sure we share many people. Maybe we're growing up, but I don't think so. I'm bolder than most 40 year olds I know. Maybe humanity is growing up. They'd better do that - fast. I want them to be ready for my spacy weird tarot deck.

lmao

[Anibis]

Well, the thing to understand about the conventional system of symbols, is that it is a finely crafted and beautiful peice of symbolic engineering. It's not exclusively true, of course, and other systems are good too, but it's merit is that like a transducer; it takes the whole experience of life, breaks it into separate parts, and re-synthesizes it with an elegant overlay that allows for meta-operation... or conscious guidance of the unfolding of phenomena in general... Imagine going into a forest and listening to the sounds it makes at night. Then stop, listen only to the crickets. Then the frogs. Then the wolves. Then the owls, then your breath. Then the wind... Then listen to it all at once again. This is, I think analogous to what the qabalah and other systems do, and do well. SO, I would advocate the creation of systems that can pick out as many different 'ontological noises' as possible' and re-integrate them so you can appreciate the symphony of all things(whew there's a pretentious phrase :p), and try to achieve a high level of resolution.

I encourage you to throw down with everything you've got... Make your tarot, invent your universe, GO! As for boldness. I'm bold in my own way but I have gotten less reckless as I have gotten older... gotten much more carefull.... In that regard I'm not suprised that you're bolder than most 40 year olds... You're bolder than me and I'm only 30, BUT what will you be like when you're 40... At a certain point, being reserved is a real blessing...

Interesting that you point out that all these symbols/decks are made of the earth element. They are, and yet one can travel 'up the ladder' from the object, to thinking about it, to reflecting on it, to emanating its energy as patterns or lines of force... this is how I understand the elements in relation to the suits... The earth element is the primary access point for everything... the world itself if earth element.... yet so much variety within it...

Lastly I'd like to point out that the pentacle is also a shield, and thus air and earth are sword and shield, so to speak, think on that as you will.

At the end of the day, I'm not hung up on any particular system, and have made some modifications to the trad tarot myself, but it is a language I am reasonably fluent in, so I tend to preserve it in the form I know it, but damn! I think that you should fully go out and re-write it, craft your own dialect, as you see fit... if it works, run with it, if if not revise it... Novelty works, but tradition is not wholly undesirable either. Peace;
-Ibisis

[m1thr0s]

sure I understand you: its all been done done done³! its frustrating and boring and idiotic!I think that may be the closest you come to a lucid statement in that whole post Kuroyagi...and unfortunately it cannot be discussed since you are not really revealing your actual reasoning...

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

naomi: no, why throw away your tarot project? maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were frustrated with all the symbolism and simply said that at times Im frustrated too. I think I somehow over-did it: I was thinking about two, three steps ahead and forgot to tell you the inbetweens.

m1thr0s: you are maybe even right there. maybe I shouldnt be that chaotic. Sometimes I guess that my thinking-process gets carried away too much and that I'll end up writing something no one can understand. I dont mind nasty criticism if it has a point and makes me think. On the one hand I like to read on point stuff on the forum myself but sometimes I also want to write something Id also like to see represented: maybe on the slight chance that someone will come around and actually understand it. its also like some "scanning" for others who are like me, a bit. (But its maybe really just idiotic- :laugh: I should do that in private: or at some poet's piss-up.).

So, we can carry on with a more normal discussion, then.

[m1thr0s]

no one is ever really like any of us Kuroyagi. It's a pipe dream mostly. We can only really share anything useful through a significant amount of struggle and personal sacrifice. Do you really imagine I enjoy sorting out how to explain the principles of Mutational Alchemy? You have absolutely no idea how very nearly pointless that really is. You think I don't know that? Any of us could lay down a line of cloak-and-dagger that would filter out 99.999...% of the whole damn human race if we wanted to.

I appreciate your willingness to consider that side to things...

edit: It's ok with me if you want to start a personal topic on largely incoherent stream-of-consciousness rants. Just do us all the favor of letting us know that's what's going on from the outset. Set it up right and it might even be very cool. This might even come under poetry. Possibly chaos magic. I have no idea if it is a good idea or a bad one but I am certainly willing to give it a fair run...you run the risk of it being shut down if it turns out to be just too damn disruptive but I am always willing to withhold such judgments...usually much longer than is actually advisable.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

(um I wrote this yesterday morning and it's just been sitting in Firefox so, this is before M replied, just so you know)

Really I'm just sort of kidding. I am frustrated! But that's my own fault, if anything is not working I just need to give myself time to absorb it and eventually I'll come up with a solution, maybe a half a year from now.

Well your post made complete sense to me, just, I didn't have much to add to it.

Particularily this:

I have a friend who sometimes comes to visit me. hes a cool guy but a bit difficult of character, yet very much like myself. only one year ago he wasnt that cool, though cause he somehow was uncomfortable with his own cat-hood. he was somehow too reluctant too ponderous and much too serious for a cat- I mean serious over a longer period of time (also he didnt know the limits of his physicality). but since then he grew so much!- now hes still a queer character- this was always how he was, his "ens" and being- but hes so much more beautiful by being thus: hes "nothing but what he is" (in his nature). (lets say seems to be.)
I know someone just like that, but before the being It seems definately that one can only become beautiful by being who they really are, without the baggage that cloaks them as they walk through the sticky mess that is life on earth.

People find truth and understanding in their own ways. I think, for one example, the whole point of the Kiersey and Meirs-Briggs personality types was to bring a partial solution to the request "Please understand me" in fact I think that might be a title of a paper or a book on those types.

Some Satanists I've noticed, on more conservative forums, prefer Rand, others, Nietzsche...me I loathe Rand while, perhaps not at all disagreeing with her point, but I adore Nietzsche. So....hmmm. Well that's all I have to say.

[Kuroyagi]

Ah my dear friends! :D

Ok, m1thr0s! Next time when it "overcomes" me again I'll post something in the Chaos Magic- or Art- folder.

Hurrah, Naomi, you understood me! I wanna marry you! On Madagaskar they have a long tradition of polygamy I heard. How about it? It was once the land of black Queen Ranavalona who was always accompanied by two ceethas. Unfortunately she doesnt reign anymore. A pity cause its difficult to find monarchs with such a refined taste. (I havent read Rand but have the gut-feeling that shed be unsatisfactory to me, Id rather read Henri Bergson first.)

Btw Ibisis: I like the comparison of the tarot with the experience of a forrest. Very well put.

So naomi, what are your plans for the deck. Will you leave out the maj arcana and concentrate on the "numbers" and suits. One could make a nice abrahadabra tarot too. Eg based on the pythagorean interpretation of the numbers with m1thr0s' cool geometric computer-art (a new line of products for the abrahadabra foundation!). or with planets. (and then as a bonus you could make the 22 trumps after our images: m1thr0s, Ibisis, Naomi, Kuroyagi etc/ everyone would have his own major triumph.)

Keep us updated!

[m1thr0s]

I'll pass on the glitzy bits, for my part thanks...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Kuroyagi, I am all for polyamoury but not polygamy, apparently there is a difference. Polygamy is what mormons do and polamoury is what witches do. Hahaha. At least what dark and wicked witches do :P ;)

Ha, cool chick, sort of an African version of Japan, if her plans had come to bear fruit. Interesting. Well I admire her. Especially for preserving traditional poetry. ^_^

No I wouldn't leave out the major arcana, they'd be too much fun to do and they are important. I guess it could be a suggestion to try it elementally. Yet the major arcana is the fifth element, isn't it?

M1thr0s is right, too. It's the glitz in the tarot that distracts from the purpose of tarot. I guess that's why people collect tarot....they're not just divination tools anymore but works of art, and lots of artists use the tarot as a foundation for a compelling series of paintings. That's no use to me though, I didn't want to just make a bunch of pretty pictures.

But as I come to the end of reading what we have discussed I think I have decided the world doesn't really need another tarot at all. In fact, the I Ching makes a better diviniation tool in some senses, and the book of the tarot is complete. It doesn't really need expansion. :::throws the tarot idea out the window:::

I think that's the end of it. Some other door will open probably.

[Anibis]

I think there's more that the Tarot can accomplish, but, as you say, Naomi, its not by simply dressing it in different clothes. It's structural... IMO, the actual images need to become simpler... People 'read' tarot, which I think of as the work of the cup, but to be fully comprehended I think that the act of 'writing' tarot is helpful; the work of the wand... simplicity makes this much more accessible. Anyhow on the other hand, I tend to agree; the I ching does actually do a better job as divination tool. most tarots, are, I think like either leaky boats, or ridiculouly embelleshed vessels of antiquated design... But this need not be so...
-Ib