Seidr Working

[Talkingfox]

Let’s start with a definition…
Seidr is a practice in which a worker of such enters into a trance state not unlike shamanic trance and while in such a state serves as augury, healer, and shaper of both perceived and physical reality.
From the viewpoint of Seidr the physical world and the “otherworld” that surrounds it are without separation of any kind. As a result of this approach, the focusing of Will causes both apparent and real changes in the fabric of Time/Space.

As with all disciplines Seidr has many levels of direct application.
At the most basic level the Volva or Vikti (titles for Seidr workers fem. and masc. respectively) project of images into the minds of others who are receptive (either consensually or not...) thus changing their perception of reality. At the MOST basic these sendings are interpreted as dreams.
In more advanced practice the projected image takes on a physical quality and in adept practice the image can become a physical reality.

So in effect by shifting the perception of both conceptual and consensual reality
a physical affect is incurred.

Seidr is considered the work of ‘specialists’ and not a regular part of everyone’s practice. Why?
Because it’s physically and emotionally dangerous (as are most things worthwhile imo ), can render the practitioner virtually unable to function within societal constraints and requires a level of commitment and focus outside the scope of all but the most dedicated.
The average volva or vikti is generally no fun at all at parties... Except to other volva or vikti that is. :eek: Every one of them that I’ve ever met has been stranger than snake shoes...

The way of Sedr seems to hold a far greater place of importance in the Nordic practices than in the more southerly Germanic ones. I chalk this up to the relative isolation of the tribes North of the southern coast of Denmark until as late as the Viking era, the result being less of a dilution of the shamanic roots inherent to the Norse Systems.

[Ratatosk]

The average volva or vikti is generally no fun at all at parties... Except to other volva or vikti that is.

I've noticed that they don't usually have much fun at parties themselves. It must have something to do with running with no filters, walking into a room full of people and going instantly "That one thinks I look funny; that one wants to find a reason to either hate or ignore me; that one is cheating on her spouse; that one is going to burn down his office because they won't give him back his red Swingline stapler ..." and so on.

It has to be rough.

[Talkingfox]

Here's a link to a rather well researched and worded paper on the histories, application and social/gender implications of seidr. I'm not sure if I agree with all of the historical theories, but they are succinctly put and sources cited in a big way.

http://www.thetroth.org/resources/jenny/nfldpaper.html

[Talkingfox]

Fylgia and other ‘astral’ forms figure strongly in Seidr practice, so I thought I’d throw some of the most commonly used stuff out here.

The fylgia is a soul “Echo”, seen as the (usually) animal expression of the individual's self. They are usually physically invisible but often manifest themselves in dream states. In the Sagas, to see ones own fylgia was usually interpreted as an omen of impending death. Some sagas also allude to the fylgia being a sort of doppelganger.



A person’s fyglia is supposed to reflect their innermost being. As a result, in the mythic, kings, heroes and such were usually shown as having fylgia in the shapes of bears, wolves and other imposing creatures.
The root of the word fylgia is “to follow” which in Old Norse has a close tie to afterbirth.
The term fetch, which is often used synonymously and IMO erroneously, is not descriptive of the nature of the fylgia, but rather of the function of said fylgia in any given context. As in go fetch…:p To journey out in altered shape is called hamfara, and serves to speed the seidr worker’s way or to act as a kind of stealth bomber (hummhumm don’t mind me I’m just a fox/horse/whatever just doing critter things…really).

A seidr worker almost never gives out his/her real name when tripping the plains, so the fylgia can also act as an identity smokescreen.

Fylgia differ from desir (ancestral spirits) in that the fylgia is linked to a specific individual rather than a family or clan, as is the case of desir. The valkyries are the mythic/heroic shape of the desir. The lesser norns (Hamingja), who are the dealers of fate to familial lines (as opposed to the greater Norns of time and fate as a whole), are also categorized as desir. The desir are, to my knowledge, always seen as female. A dis (sing.) is usually thought of as being ‘inherited’ and passed on through the family. Several of the sagas make mention of one’s personal Hamingja being loaned to friends as a way to secure their good luck on a voyage or in battle.
The volva or vikti generally will go the direct to Hel route to garner information from desir not their own.

[Ratatosk]

A person’s fyglia is supposed to reflect their innermost being. As a result, in the mythic, kings, heroes and such were usually shown as having fylgia in the shapes of bears, wolves and other imposing creatures.


While in this case this sort of claim makes sense (King Hrothgar the Titmouse would be overthrown by his Jarls in no time at all!) I see this all the time in the occult community. People who all seem to have a bear or wolf or falcon or lion spirit.

It seems especially common in urban settings with people who have no direct experience of the animal they are claiming, based on some sort of idea of what it is supposed to "mean" or (more likely) because it is "cool."

I don't think I have met too many occultists who claim their fylgia/power animal/whatever is rat, or skunk, or raccoon, although all three are very cool (and clever) animals, and in the case of the skunk, with amazing defenses! :rofl:

[Talkingfox]

I believe I'd like to meet a racoon type person.

[Ratatosk]

I just wonder, how many people are labled 'crazy' in our society, that are actually coming at the world as a worker of seidr (by whatever name you choose to ascribe.)

There seems to be a strong shamanic tradition of 'becoming' or coming into full power through a "shamanic break" - or as our society likes to call it a psychotic break.

Psychiatrist: "So, you are hearing voices, eh? What do they tell you?" :)

Seidr: "That you are cheating on your wife and your taxes just like you did on your psych finals and that I shouldn't trust a word you say." :no:

Psychiatrist: "Hmm, I see. Ok, off the funny farm for you!" :mad:

[Ratatosk]

The volva or vikti generally will go the direct to Hel route to garner information from desir not their own.

This shows up prominently in Vegtamskvida, also called Baldrs Draumar: (from the Thorpe translation)
8. Forth rode Odin -
the ground rattled -
till to Hel’s lofty
house he came.
Then rode Ygg
to the eastern gate,
where he knew there was
a Vala’s grave.

9. To the prophetess he began
a magic song to chant,
towards the north looked,
potent runes applied,
a spell pronounced,
an answer demanded,
until compelled she rose,
and with deathlike voice she said:

Vala
10. “What man is this,
to me unknown
who has for me increased
an irksome course?
I have with snow been decked
by rain beaten,
and with dew moistened:
long have I been dead.”

[Nuhad418]

There seems to be a strong shamanic tradition of 'becoming' or coming into full power through a "shamanic break" - or as our society likes to call it a psychotic break.

Psychiatrist: "So, you are hearing voices, eh? What do they tell you?" :)

Seidr: "That you are cheating on your wife and your taxes just like you did on your psych finals and that I shouldn't trust a word you say." :no:

Psychiatrist: "Hmm, I see. Ok, off the funny farm for you!" :mad:

Then again there is the other side too:

Psychiatrist: "So, you are hearing voices, eh? What do they tell you?"

Seidr: "That I am the chosen of the gods and I will save all human kind from their own ignorence. I know things no one else knows!!"

Psychiatrist: "Hmm, I see. Ok, off the funny farm for you!"

Seidr: *scowls and glares* "You will be the first!"

Psychiatrist: "Hmm, I see. Ok, off the police station THEN the funny farm for you!"

[Naomi]

I've noticed that they don't usually have much fun at parties themselves. It must have something to do with running with no filters, walking into a room full of people and going instantly "That one thinks I look funny; that one wants to find a reason to either hate or ignore me; that one is cheating on her spouse; that one is going to burn down his office because they won't give him back his red Swingline stapler ..." and so on.

It has to be rough.

Really? Well I guess I have a tough skin, it always bothered my mother and come to think of it, a few others. But I just shrug it off...you can't expect to walk into the room of humans giving off the vibe of a tyrannosaur with the looks of a goddess/god.

Some curious people do come up to you in certain venues (especially underground parties like a gothic-industrial-ebm club, a rave or a bad (bad=good) metal concert...well actually at a metal concert they'll just be swept away by the energy. They'll be brave and honest with you and say "I felt drawn to you and wanted to talk to you." Many times these are people with nothing to lose, the modern American Saddhu or Saddhi, young and ruthless.

Perhaps it's rough at first, but later it becomes challenging, fun and when one learns to properly tune and apply these abilities and apply universal consciousness, completely natural. At that level, it all changes....views, thoughts, directives, perspectives. Only desire to hold onto what is now long past leads to suffering...ah, now I'm drifting into Buddhist land, they can teach us all about that....

Cool topic Talkingfox, I never heard of this name before...

I actually do claim raccoon as a brother, I feed them here in Memphis, as I live in the heart of the city and I treasure whateve rnaimals are able to survive here, they are much like me, in tune with nature yet survivors living in a wasteland. Raccoon is the bad little brother of fox, who is coyote's grandaughter. You'll know a raccoon person because they are funny, clever, mischievious and usually have sharp, pretty features, though they are sturdily built. They may also have a troubled life (they like trouble.)

Funny you should mention that because as I was writing this I thought of a raccoon person who used to come up to me at the old goth club here that was run by a cool Satanist. Life here is hard for magicians, but that is why, as a friend of mine so eloquently put it, we have hearts of steel and

Also raccoons really know where to find goooood food, and appreciate any extras. I always through them the remains of lunch and dinner, they live in the big elm trees that tower over my house. Sometimes at midnight I hear them arguing with the squirrels loudly. It is a good replacement for the crackhead neighbors's I drove out with a demonic portal a few years ago. They sounded a lot uglier when they argued! :D


Then again there is the other side too:

Psychiatrist: "So, you are hearing voices, eh? What do they tell you?"

Seidr: "That I am the chosen of the gods and I will save all human kind from their own ignorence. I know things no one else knows!!"

Psychiatrist: "Hmm, I see. Ok, off the funny farm for you!"

Seidr: *scowls and glares* "You will be the first!"

Psychiatrist: "Hmm, I see. Ok, off the police station THEN the funny farm for you!"That changes this year.

[Talkingfox]

This shows up prominently in Vegtamskvida, also called Baldrs Draumar: (from the Thorpe translation)
Vala
10. “What man is this,
to me unknown
who has for me increased
an irksome course?
I have with snow been decked
by rain beaten,
and with dew moistened:
long have I been dead.”

OK I 've spent some time with this text over the last few weeks...I think the interpretation is less that she's been to Hel and more that she's been following the practice of "sitting out" and is rather pissed that her trance state has been disturbed...god or no.

I think the phrase "long have I been dead" is a mistranslation. IMO it's more to the vein of "long have I existed between" with the connotation of a developed longterm trance state or shamanic journey, ie living 'between' the worlds or states of existence.

[Nuhad418]

OK I 've spent some time with this text over the last few weeks...I think the interpretation is less that she's been to Hel and more that she's been following the practice of "sitting out" and is rather pissed that her trance state has been disturbed...god or no.

I think the phrase "long have I been dead" is a mistranslation. IMO it's more to the vein of "long have I existed between" with the connotation of a developed longterm trance state or shamanic journey, ie living 'between' the worlds or states of existence.

So TF, what, in your opinion, is the significance of your interpretation to heathens? The notion of "in-between" has been a major concern for me for years. It really started with reading H.P. Lovecraft and Kenneth Grant. Zero relation to the topic of Siedr working (well mostly) but fascinating all the same.

[Talkingfox]

Actually I think it's more on topic than you think Nuad.

I think that the biggest thing in that quote is that Seidr becomes a way of being rather than strictly a practice.
In practical terms seidr practice is not a 'maybe this weekend when I've got the time' sort of thing. Regular and serious workings change a person in many ways including neurologically.

While there are many upsides to the kind of perception that ensues, there are downsides as well, some of which we touched on earlier (societal) . The major bitch that I've heard in that area is that modern life is just too 'loud' and too 'fast'.

There also seems to be a major blurring in time/space perception, even as far as actual physical perception of the most immediate outcomes of things (or most probable) happening in the now. Undoubtedly this can make things like driving a bit problematic.

Just a few thoughts as I've had no caffeine.

EDIT: Ok after coffee I think that I've found a better way to state this. Trance state becomes the homeostatic rather than the exceptional. I've seen this firsthand with people who take hallucinogens and ' normalize' rather than launching. To function in a 'grounded norm' requires the same effort that reaching and functioning in deep trance requires of most folk.

[Okazaki Castle]

I like this. A lot of it sounds very similar to what I do. No try, just be. Just do it. That sort of thing. A Way of Life, and who you are.

Will be looking into this more deeply and prbbly come back to you with some questions and things, if that's alright...

Thanks for the info on this btw :)

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Nuhad418]

While there are many upsides to the kind of perception that ensues, there are downsides as well, some of which we touched on earlier (societal) . The major bitch that I've heard in that area is that modern life is just too 'loud' and too 'fast'.

Does not this wise fox listen to all manner of ear splitting noise? :laugh:

Too loud and too fast is a valid concern. However, I also think that not being able to multi-task within our society has its down side too.

[Naomi]

TalkingFox thanks for all the work you do, it has been very helpful to me.

[Talkingfox]

Too loud and too fast is a valid concern. However, I also think that not being able to multi-task within our society has its down side too.

Definitely.

I've noticed something rather interesting in the study of this stuff. Seems that the smaller the societal group the more central the role of the shaman/volva/vikti.
Inversely the larger the societal group the more marginalized the role.

What I've read in analysis of this points to a distrust from the members of the society...but I think it may be by the choice of the practitioner. EEEEEP too much information!!!!! :eek: Thoughts on this?


You're very welcome Naomi...and I'm glad you're finding bits of it of value!

[Nuhad418]

What I've read in analysis of this points to a distrust from the members of the society...but I think it may be by the choice of the practitioner. EEEEEP too much information!!!!! :eek: Thoughts on this?



I'm no expert in...well anything but certainly not anthropology but I have found that Charles Laughlin's observations that the shaman reinforces the society while being outside of it (a state of "in-between"?) interesting. Unfortunately this quote from his web site (http://www.biogeneticstructuralism.com/bs_stud_of_rel_full_version.htm)does not have the cycle of meaning in image form...I will try to scan it from my Masters Thesis.




THE CYCLE OF MEANING


The sociocultural process of integrating knowledge, memory and experience in groups we call the cycle of meaning (Laughlin, McManus and d'Aquili 1990:214). A society's worldview is expressed in its mythopoeia (myth, ritual performance, drama, art, stories, etc.) in such a way that it evokes direct experiences in various phases of consciousness (see Figure 1). The experiences and memories that arise as a consequence of participation in mythopoeic procedures are interpreted in terms of the worldview in such a way that they instantiate, and thus verify and vivify the society's theory of the world -- a theory that frequently posits the existence of what Alfred Schutz (1945) called "multiple realities."



A living cycle of meaning would seem to be a delicate process by which socially shared knowledge is balanced with intersubjective communication about direct experience, and one that requires change or "revitalization" (Wallace 1966) over time in order for meaningful dialogue to continue between worldview and personal experience. The social construction of knowledge and individual experience would seem to be involved in a reciprocal feedback system the properties of which may be changed by circumstances in such a way that the link between knowledge and experience may be hampered, and even lost. In other words, a religious system may become moribund due to the failure of the cyclical dialogue between worldview and direct experience to complete itself.




WORLDVIEW
(COSMOLOGY)



Mediation
by Shaman







INTERPRETATION OF MYTHOPOEIA
EXPERIENCE (RITUAL, MYTH, ART, DRAMA,
AND OTHER SYMBOLISM)





Mediation
by Shaman


DIRECT EXPERIENCE






Figure 1. The Cycle of Meaning . The society's worldview is expressed symbolically in its mythopoeia, and especially its ritual, which leads to direct experiences that are interpreted in such a way that the worldview is vivified and verified. Shamans may mediate the process by structuring the symbolic expression and again by helping to interpret experience.



Many polyphasic societies encourage their members to explore multiple phases of consciousness (through dreams, visions, meditation states, drug trips, trance states, etc.) and interpret experiences that arise according to culturally recognized systems of meaning (d'Aquili 1982, McManus, Laughlin and Shearer 1993b, Winkelman 1986, 1990). This process of exploring experiences of multiple realities, combined with social appropriation of the meaning of these experiences within a single cycle of meaning, is typical of polyphasic cultures (see e.g., Tonkinson 1978 and Poirier 1990 on the Australian Aborigines, Guedon 1984 on the Tsimshian in Canada, Laderman 1991 on Malay culture, Peters 1982 on Tamang shamanism, and Schele and Freidel 1990 on the shamanism-based kingship among the ancient Maya). Many societies go so far as to compel alternative phases of consciousness by putting their members through initiation procedures, including ingesting psychotropic drugs and mandatory vision quests (see Bourguignon 1973, Naranjo 1987). The experiences encountered during these procedures in turn reify the society's multiple reality cosmology.



The role of the shaman or ritual specialist in both initiating practitioners into experiences and interpreting those experiences for the practitioner and the society at large is frequently important. In other societies the "shamanistic" role may be diffused throughout the population of elders who have themselves undergone the requisite initiates. In still other societies, control of initiation and interpretation may be in the hands of the elders of a secret society. In still other societies, particular individuals may be recognized as especially adept at leading others through healing and other initiatory experiences, and interpreting experiences that arise of the initiate in dreams and other phases of consciousness.

[Zifiriskenoxa]

Hel is appealing.. monstrous yet child like

[Ratatosk]

Hel is appealing.. monstrous yet child like


Could you clarify? In what way do you find Hel is monstrous, and in what way do you find her childlike?

I find her appealing for totally different reasons. She controls the realm of Helheim (of course) which is not only the realm of those who didn't die in battle or childbirth, but also is kind of a holding place for genetic memory. Besides that, I'm much more partial to the older forms (Vana) than the newer (Asa).

[Nuhad418]

I find her appealing for totally different reasons. She controls the realm of Helheim (of course) which is not only the realm of those who didn't die in battle or childbirth, but also is kind of a holding place for genetic memory. Besides that, I'm much more partial to the older forms (Vana) than the newer (Asa).

Ratatosk, I find many descriptions of Hel to be influenced by early Christian influence (more obvious in later sources). I was wondering what is the earliest written description of Hel and Helheim you have come across (in English)? A few of the newer heathen sources try to separate Helheim from the Christian influence but they never seem to indicate on what grounds they are doing that.

[Zifiriskenoxa]

Could you clarify? In what way do you find Hel is monstrous, and in what way do you find her childlike?

I find her appealing for totally different reasons. She controls the realm of Helheim (of course) which is not only the realm of those who didn't die in battle or childbirth, but also is kind of a holding place for genetic memory. Besides that, I'm much more partial to the older forms (Vana) than the newer (Asa).

I cant say I have much experience or even information about Hel but from what I feel, she has fragileness inside as she may appear frightening and threatening. You may get total viciousness or a soft touch depending on the spot you touch in her. And I think she'd prefer to be understood without having to speak.

[m1thr0s]

I cant say I have much experience or even information about Hel but from what I feel, she has fragileness inside as she may appear frightening and threatening. You may get total viciousness or a soft touch depending on the spot you touch in her. And I think she'd prefer to be understood without having to speak.sounds more like my 3rd grade english teacher...no relation that I know of. :o_O:

I can't help but be a little curious if you don't really know much about a character, how exactly do you arrive at any kind of reliable feeling about them? This whole touchy-feely magick stuff never made too much sense to me personally since my whole thing is based on learning everything I can learn about a character in the first instance and then allowing feelings to emerge on the basis of that acquired knowledge...

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Ratatosk, I find many descriptions of Hel to be influenced by early Christian influence (more obvious in later sources). I was wondering what is the earliest written description of Hel and Helheim you have come across (in English)? A few of the newer heathen sources try to separate Helheim from the Christian influence but they never seem to indicate on what grounds they are doing that.

Well, they show up in the Poetic Edda, the Voluspa, the Grímnismál that I can say for sure, but to try and point to a 'pre-Christian' version wouldn't really be possible, since none of this stuff was written down until the Christian monks started transcribing these oral traditions. For the closest version to the original I would say look to the Poetic Edda. The Thorpe translation (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/poetic2/index.php) is good, but you can check the other translations (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/main.php#eddas) as well.

Most of my information re: Hel and Helheim comes from doing the homework (studying the Eddas and sagas) followed by direct experience. Just like anything else, you can't really say much about a thing until you experience it directly. :yes:

[Talkingfox]

I feel need to make mention that although the current trend in hamfara/seidr workings is to contact the desir and that sort of thing, I think that focusing only there does the practice a huge disservice. I personally feel that just because ones ancestors are dead doesn't necessarily mean that they're smart.

[Nuhad418]

Well, they show up in the Poetic Edda, the Voluspa, the Grímnismál that I can say for sure, but to try and point to a 'pre-Christian' version wouldn't really be possible, since none of this stuff was written down until the Christian monks started transcribing these oral traditions. For the closest version to the original I would say look to the Poetic Edda. The Thorpe translation (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/poetic2/index.php) is good, but you can check the other translations (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/main.php#eddas) as well.

Most of my information re: Hel and Helheim comes from doing the homework (studying the Eddas and sagas) followed by direct experience. Just like anything else, you can't really say much about a thing until you experience it directly. :yes:

Bah! You are no help! I want to be spoon fed!! :laugh: You confirmed pretty much what I had suspected. I guess thats good in one way as I am on the "right" track but bad as I soon realise how much still needs to be done. :eek:

[Zifiriskenoxa]

sounds more like my 3rd grade english teacher...no relation that I know of. :o_O:

I can't help but be a little curious if you don't really know much about a character, how exactly do you arrive at any kind of reliable feeling about them? This whole touchy-feely magick stuff never made too much sense to me personally since my whole thing is based on learning everything I can learn about a character in the first instance and then allowing feelings to emerge on the basis of that acquired knowledge...

m1thr0s

I dont think I have to do evocations, invocations or even lots of reading to have an idea of something like this. And it's not as if these kind of entities appear exactly the same to everyone, like demons, different people evoking them can get different sides of them. Everyone has their own ways. Sometimes a glimpse can tell a lot to some. And as I never claimed to have any solid knowledge, it just might be the Hel of my universe or the reflection I had from it. I doubt you could say there is only one certain Hel archetype anyway. And it wouldnt be too wierd to see qualities of gods in people since people are filling gods with human qualities in the first place.

[m1thr0s]

sure...archetypes will always have an individualized character at the level of individuals. I wouldn't even attempt to challenge anything so obvious as that. But archetypes are also distinguished by having a collective characteristics based upon commonalities among many people. Understanding these common denominators allows us to make certain assertions about those archetypes that carry a certain authority above and beyond what might be experienced by individuals alone.

If somebody tells me that Hel is absolutely indistinguishable from Mary Poppins in their own personal experience, I have no reason to doubt or challenge that. But I also would have no reason to expect that definition to carry any special weight collectively. When you take the time to study these collective commonalities as recorded in historical myths, legends, artistic renderings and so on, you are in a much better position to draw conclusions or make assertions about what that archetype is about in more generalized sorts of ways.

So returning to our Hel = Mary Poppins scenario, we would then be able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty that whereas Hel may be the same as Mary Poppins to a certain individual (or even group of individuals) it has no demonstrable relation to Mary Poppins in the greater scheme of things. Individuals simply cannot speak for whole groups whereas established collective definitions do, in fact, qualify a more stable parameters, not only historically, but carrying over even down to the present day.

That's just sort of how it is with archetypes so that to really understand them properly you need to know as much about their history as you can find out.

m1thr0s

[Nuhad418]

Well presented m1thr0s. I would only add that archetypes (and you all know how I am using the term :laugh: ) and archetypal images are, to some degree, dependant on cultural experience. To speak of an experience of Hel without having an understanding (no matter how limited it may be) of the cultures from which she erupted lacks a vital component. One can say they have had an experience of Hel and that subjective experience is true...for that person. However, one cannot deny a whole culture's experience of Hel because it does not gel with their experience, especially if the person experienceing Hel has not analysed the sacred scriptures, art, philosophy, social structures, etc. One cannot really avoid systematic and diligent study in such matters (of course too much of that is useless too!).

[m1thr0s]

phenomenology strikes again...:ninja:

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Bah! You are no help! I want to be spoon fed!!

No problem - open wide for the "Cream of Weak" :laugh:

[Nuhad418]

No problem - open wide for the "Cream of Weak" :laugh:

:rofl: I think I will put that on a shirt: "Don't give me study and work...just give me Cream of Weak!"

Ok, so it turns out that Cream of Weat adds were highly racist! I present this not in the original racist context (though this one was not so overt but in the spirit of Goatly humour...if its inflamatory let me know and I will gladly remover it!

What Would Odin Eat for Breakfast? (WWOEFB?)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/nuhad418/c_o_w_02.jpg