Revivalism vs. Re-creationism in Norse practice

[Ratatosk]

While many will claim to be Norse re-creationists I find their claims to be, well, lacking. Looking at what they are doing (often romanticized versions of what they wish Norse worship looked like) all I see is a huge lack of understanding.

Formalized rituals dedicated to Thor that involve pouring wine on the ground (and they still try to call them a blot :no:) and offering toasts to Odin without pouring some into the fire for his brother Loki (because Loki is "spooky") just show ignorance.

You want re-creation, set up a blood-stone for Thor (you have to have blood to have a blot), and when you do your ritual for the crops kill an animal and spill it's blood over the stone. Then cook and feast on the animal. (The Norse were nothing if not pragmatic.)

Furthermore, you want re-creation and claim to be an Odinist, you had best be a Jarl. The Odinic cult was all about the Jarls, while the average Jens Schmucksson was much more into Thor and/or Frej, so much so that Tacitus writes that Thor is the head of all the gods. Indeed, that seems to be the case at Upaslla where the largest Thor temple used to stand.

The truth of the matter, however, is that even looking through the eddas and sagas you very rarely see anyone linked to a specific deity, unless they are a godhi or gydja (literally god-man or god-woman) of that particular form. Since the whole thing is so devoid of dogma, practice from one person to the next was all very different.

When it comes to revivalism, however, we have to look at what kind of cultural ideals we can glean from the system, and how we can interact with the energies of those god-forms, and the forms of the spirits of place in the modern world.


As an example:
I was watching a National Geographic show on Iceland, and they talked about the process by which they determined where to put a new highway, when the one they had in place kept getting torn up by quakes, volcanic activity and rockslides. They called out the official, state-recognized godhi who walked the path they planned on building the new highway. He spoke to the wights, and came back and told the road planners that their proposed route was no good, as it was too close to a certain rock formation and would be upsetting to the same wights who were tearing up the old road. They changed the plans to skirt that particular area in accordance with the recommendations of the godhi and built the road. When they finished the offical, state-recognized Christian priest came out and blessed the road. They gave a kind of afternote at the end of the program that said that the piece of highway they showed in the piece had escaped any damage in several subsequent quakes in the area, but that a section of the road that hadn't been part of that project had been wiped out, and that they were in the planning process to rebuild that segment the same way, following the advice of the godhi.
The thing that cracked me up about that was the way the road engineers talked about the godhi. They essentially said they didn't care where he got his information, (whether he was actually talking to wights or just had an acute eye for geologic structures and how they will react to stresses) but that what was important was that he was very accurate in his recommendations and they all take him seriously.
One thing to keep in mind in day-to-day dealings with the Norse forms, they are not silent, nor is their attention difficult to gain. They do not, however, act in proscribed manners like so many other forms. It takes very little to get their attention, but once you have it you have to stand your ground or get run rough-shod over. 'Tis the nature of the system.

[Talkingfox]

IMO most re-creation is purely recreation in fancy dress.

[Ratatosk]

IMO most re-creation is purely recreation in fancy dress.


http://www.timelesstrinkets.com/Smurfs/CollectorPages/images/20430.jpg

:laugh:

[Talkingfox]

IIIIeeeeeeee...run away run away....

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Damn! If you hadn't qualified the title Revivalism vs. Re-creationism with in Norse practice Id be yacking your ears off til doomsday. As you can guess it's one of my pet hates. Actually in my case the title would have to be Stop Screwing With My Gods, Screw With Your Own Ones or alternatively Why Plastic Celts Should Be Slapped :D

[Talkingfox]

Hey now....I'm a tried and true member of clan McNugget here...no really

You should see the tartan.

[Nuhad418]

Hey now....I'm a tried and true member of clan McNugget here...no really

You should see the tartan.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/nuhad418/amc0694l.jpg

:laugh:

(Image from here (http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/t/tartan.asp))

[Ratatosk]

An important note on Revivalism:

Just because a thing is older does not imply that it is automatically better. In fact, the Norse were (and are) an amazingly adaptable bunch of folks. (Had to be.) If a system is not growing and changing to suit the time, it is as good as dead.

Unlike the Germanic tribes, the Norse tribes were not warlike. Opportunistic, yes. They didn't go around killing each other over the hero's portion of the meat or anything like that. Why? Because if you kill Olaf the blacksmith (or the farmer, shepherd, boatwright, fisherman, whatever he is) that is one less (possibly zero) in the village. And without every able hand working the village could very well die.

It wasn't until the 8th century (the start of the Viking Age) when the northerners were starting to really populate the place up and get crowded that the warrior stuff started to kick in. And even then it was mostly opportunistic. Most crews viking (literally "traveling up a vik" [small river]) would carry trade goods and focus on safer ways of bringing home the cash. But then again, those monasteries had gold. And no weapons. And no fighting men. And gold will buy you a farm-stead. And maybe a wife. And your own boat. And a horse. Hmmm, sniffs like opportunity to me. (And thus the start of the "Barbaric Viking Horde"(R)(TM))

[Ci Celli Ddu]

It wasn't until the 8th century (the start of the Viking Age) when the northerners were starting to really populate the place up and get crowded that the warrior stuff started to kick in. And even then it was mostly opportunistic. Most crews viking (literally "traveling up a vik" [small river]) would carry trade goods and focus on safer ways of bringing home the cash. But then again, those monasteries had gold. And no weapons. And no fighting men. And gold will buy you a farm-stead. And maybe a wife. And your own boat. And a horse. Hmmm, sniffs like opportunity to me. (And thus the start of the "Barbaric Viking Horde"(R)(TM))

Hehe. Those bad old Vikings. What's funny from a historic Britain-Ireland-Celtic perspective is that when we weren't trying to fend off the odd raid by those pesky Vikings we were most of the time busy stealing the next clan's cattle. One of the main Irish legendary texts is all about a cattle raid, and I was amused to see on the news about 5 years ago that it was still happening in Northern Ireland ("Where are my f___ing cows???!!!").

Ive heard that Iceland's history is full of very bloody episodes of clan warfare though.

[Talkingfox]

heehee Those pesky old Ulstermen

[Talkingfox]

I was speaking with a friend last night and the subject of "Golden Ages" and some kind of need within certain groups to recreate them was brought up.
I personally don't believe in any "Golden Age" anywhere in human history. :no:
Golden moments? Golden individuals? Probably.

In order to take on revivalism rather than re-creationism one must be secure in ones self enough to "cut the apron strings" as it were and draw ones own conclusions as to what is appropriate and applicable to the here and now.
Said discernment requires personal responsibility.

I think that current push to re-creationism rather than revivalism is a function of fear. Rather than to push forward and create a meaningful and timely work in a given idiom, the re-creationist turns to a fantasy. I've found this to be especially prevalent in the Nordic and Celtic communities where literalism (laziness) and a penchant to pull from whatever media thing is currently en vogue abounds.
I can't begin to tell you how many quotes from that POS film the 13th Warrior I've heard over the years...
In the Norse, I call it Hollywyrd. :rolleyes:

While I dig history and unearthing tidbits from all over the place I also seriously dig indoor plumbing and other amenities and feel no need to walk backwards.

[Ratatosk]

While I dig history and unearthing tidbits from all over the place I also seriously dig indoor plumbing and other amenities and feel no need to walk backwards.

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! :rofl:

I'm with you on that one all the way!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Yeah. I think if someone said for example "King Arthur of England" to me I'd probably hit them. And then hit them again. And again...
Im not a revivalist myself. For me it's my background, where I come from, Old Hat. Magickally Im more interested in other stuff. Still, it boils my blood when I come across misinformation caused by people messing around with my culture who are too lazy to get their facts right. And druids...I don't even want to talk about them in case I break something.

The Isle of Anglesey was the European center of the ancient Druids, their most holy training ground. My family have lived on the island since the Stone Age, so Ive got a direct ancestral link to the Druids. So when I meet some beardy Anglo-Saxon in a white frock who calls himself a druid whilst calling (in English) on gods whose names he can't even pronounce KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL...I get somewhat irritated

[Talkingfox]

Y

So when I meet some beardy Anglo-Saxon in a white frock who calls himself a druid whilst calling (in English) on gods whose names he can't even pronounce KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL...I get somewhat irritated

Mispronunciation in invocation is an area where I get uber anal....let's show some respect and a bit of care to be precise, neh?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Mispronunciation of godforms' names is an area where I get uber anal....let's show some respect and a bit of care to be precise, neh?

Yes, but it's worse than that. It's a language thing. The English language has a rightful claim on Norse heathenism via Danish and Anglo-Saxon roots. I mean if I come across some guy in a field invoking Germanic deities in English I'll think "fair enough". But we get loads of English speaking neo-pagans coming up here (often staying) so they can use the sacred sites to call on Welsh gods in English. Then they go off and write books about how oh-so Celtic they are, without having learned any Celtic language, even though over 60% of people in these parts speak Welsh (90% where I live). For us language is the most essential element of our identity, and the Welsh gods form an integral part of our culture as Welsh speakers. Try to imagine a few bus loads of neo-shamanic Anglos turning up in an Indian reservation dressed as medicine men to use a sacred site etc. It's bad taste. We're a nation of Uber Anals when it comes to our linguistic territory, and that territory includes our literature and with that our gods. Id say at least half of Welsh speaking kids have names from the Mabinogion.

[Talkingfox]

I think we've got to what Rataosk was speaking of in the Heathen Basics Thread...just plain RUDENESS

EDIT: I think the Nordic and Celtic peoples share very similar ideas about mannerly -ness in another's space (Well unless there's COWS involved) Seems to be a lost art from what I'm seeing in the "recreationist" types. Bleah.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I think we've got to what Rataosk was speaking of in the Heathen Basics Thread...just plain RUDENESS

EDIT: I think the Nordic and Celtic peoples share very similar ideas about mannerly -ness in another's space (Well unless there's COWS involved) Seems to be a lost art from what I'm seeing in the "recreationist" types. Bleah.

It might be understood as cultural bias on my part, but anyone who has any real knowledge of the "Celtic Tradition" should have worked out that a knowledge of the native languages is essential to an understanding of its imagery and symbolism and their employment in magick.

[Talkingfox]

I don't think it's just a matter of cultural bias, CCD. I think that dealing with any kind of poetic tradition it its own language is requisite.
Idiom doesn't translate well in general and there is so very much in those idioms.

In my current workings with the Norse stuff I'm finding that most of the translations miss stuff, even though the languages being translated are related. I can imagine much much more is missed when the languages are Unrelated.

[Dragon]

I think that current push to re-creationism rather than revivalism is a function of fear. Rather than to push forward and create a meaningful and timely work in a given idiom, the re-creationist turns to a fantasy. I've found this to be especially prevalent in the Nordic and Celtic communities where literalism (laziness) and a penchant to pull from whatever media thing is currently en vogue abounds.
I can't begin to tell you how many quotes from that POS film the 13th Warrior I've heard over the years...
In the Norse, I call it Hollywyrd. :rolleyes:

Brace yerself lass...

Marvel has announced it is bringing its comic book superhero/god Thor to the silver screen.....

Maybe they could get Antonio Bandaras a shot at the roll...a litttle powder...a little wig.

C'mon, work with me here! :cool:


~D~

[m1thr0s]

wouldn't they have to call it "Thoro"? ;)

m1thr0s

[Nuhad418]

wouldn't they have to call it "Thoro"? ;)

m1thr0s

Oh good god...:shitstorm: that was horrible :laugh:

[Ci Celli Ddu]

It's doomed to failure before it begins. Thor's a very potent energy. I'm neither kith nor kin to the guy, but when I was 11 years old I asked him to show a clear sign through thunder and/or lightning that the Aesir were mightier than the Xian god. By a wierd coincidence this happened (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/9/newsid_2498000/2498525.stm)within the same week.*



* Yeah I could be making this up. But I'm not.

PS York was the Viking capital of Britain.

[Radiant Star]

I asked him to show a clear sign through thunder and/or lightning that the Aesir were mightier than the Xian god. By a wierd coincidence this happened (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/9/newsid_2498000/2498525.stm)within the same week.*
I have found that some of the gods like to go overboard a little don't you think? :laugh:

[Talkingfox]

Brace yerself lass...

Marvel has announced it is bringing its comic book superhero/god Thor to the silver screen.....

Maybe they could get Antonio Bandaras a shot at the roll...a litttle powder...a little wig.

C'mon, work with me here! :cool:


~D~

Ah knowing the craptacular nature of the biz it'll probably not even be THAT good. More like Ashton Kucher or something. Title? "Dude, Where's my Hammer?"

[fr.novumorganum]

Loki, played by snoop doggie dog

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Loki, played by snoop doggie dog

...wearing a red wig and imitating the accent of the Swedish Chef off the Muppet Show?

[m1thr0s]

Oh good god...:shitstorm: that was horrible :laugh:
teeheehee...I was thinking it might make a good musical...they could call it "Thoroughly Modern Thor!"... on the other hand it might never make it past production due to unexplained injuries and death to cast & crew...:eek:

m1

[Talkingfox]

teeheehee...I was thinking it might make a good musical...they could call it "Thoroughly Modern Thor!"... on the other hand it might never make it past production due to unexplained injuries and death to cast & crew...:eek:

m1

:rofl: oh lord m1, thanks for the much needed belly laugh. I, of course, had a series of twisted visuals including exploding ingenue sopranos and incidents with chorus lines, pinrails and an axe... This particular show could keep me amused for quite some time ;)

On a side note there IS actually a good film out that I'd like to recommend.
"Beowulf and Grendal" is thoroughly gorgeous, well acted,staged and written, AND approaches the 'hero' thing with a modicum of sanity. Filmed in Iceland...really enjoyable stuff.

[Dragon]

dalgrendalgredalgrendalgren....


hehehe

[Naomi]

Ah I've found that most of the greater intelligences love showing off on the bigscreen. Hell, we had Athena adopt Storm as her new form recently, from the X-Men, in another working.

You really think Thor will smite the humans for that?

[Marcel]

1.Odin is not brother with Loki.
And as a matter of fact i have never heard of or seen any evidence of anyone in ancient times ever sacrificing to Loki (and he had no Cult following).
The only place i can see where prayer is offered to him is in Lokatattur, a Faeroese saga.

2. All types of sacrifices where referred to as Blót, not only bloody ones .Blót not being necesasserily derived from blood. As a matter of fact most sacrifices in Scandinavia and other Norse places where votive offerings and depot offerings and sacrifices of ale, wine,crops and so on where commonplace while blood offerings where rare (since animals are expencive).

3.The Thor, as the Vanir Cults where bigger among ordinairy folks but there was no rule whatsover that you had to be anything to Blót to any God.
Norse Religion was not centralized. Thus, anyone could sacrifice to any God they pleased and furthermore, the "custom" was most likely rather Regional.
Myth and Cult practice was not uniform at all.

As far as Jarl goes nobody even knows how much of a Religous role it had originally. Some think that it is derived from "Erilen" but that is mostly guesswork, not Science. There was a Germanic tribe by that same name (Herulians) that might have added to the confusion.

Actually, in Iceland only one person was ever called a Jarl.
Since the Winterblót includes Odin i would presume everybody that celebrated it also Blóted to Odin.

[Ritual_Kiss]

On the one hand, revivalism requires one to take some history lessons (or at least should,) and can get one learning more about their family roots. However, I don't see why one would have to take those customs, traditions, or what have you and try to revive the entire religion out of it. There's no reason someone can't take lessons or insight from older paths and use it in their new ones while calling your religion something else, which inevitably it will be different. It seems no matter what, one will always be creating something new, unless the practice and rituals have been continuous over a long period of time.

Personally, I think that by doing so I would only impose limitations on my own spiritual growth, if I became part of some ancient religion with specific symbolism, rituals etc. What of other symbols and rituals which have nothing to do with that religion?

[Ritual_Kiss]

hmmmm. On the other hand, religions are always evolving anyway, and will never stay exactly the same no matter what. So....

[Talkingfox]

1.Odin is not brother with Loki.
And as a matter of fact i have never heard of or seen any evidence of anyone in ancient times ever sacrificing to Loki (and he had no Cult following).
The only place i can see where prayer is offered to him is in Lokatattur, a Faeroese saga.

.

A bit from the folk at Lulea University. Saves me the trouble of digging up the exact stanzas :p

"Snorri tells us about Loki´s family in great detail: "svá, at kalla hann son Fárbauta ok Laufejar, Nalar, bródir Byleists ok Helblinda" (de Vries 1933, p.186). In the Poetic Edda, Loki is referred to as "Laufey´s son" in Trymskvida st.20 and in Lokasenna st.52, and the kennings of Voluspá st.51 and Hyndluljó st.40: "Byleistr´s brother", give further evidence to his relation with Byleistr. Loki´s relationship to Helblinda as being a person in his own right is not as certain as is his relationship to Byleistr, as Helblinda is also used as a name for Odin in Grimnismal st.46. de Vries suggests that Byleistr and Helblinda are two other names for Odin, and finds support for his suggestion in Lokasenna, where Loki claims his rightful place at the table because of his blood brotherhood with Odin, thus establishing the close relation between the two of them."

[Marcel]

I have heard several theories suggesting that Odin and Loki where actually even the same person (with Loki being the shadow self, as if Odin needed one :) ).

However to make this one stick, that they where actual brothers "genetically" one would also have to give solid arguments for Borr and Bestla being synonym with Farbauti and Laufey.

Besides, contradicting "genealogies" of Deities are hardly something uncommon in Mythology (just take a look at Greek Myth).

I personally see Odin and Loki as distinct personalities though with a lot in common.

As far as Blóts to Loki go i have not heard of one academic theory of any such Cult activity.

Also, lets not forget that Gods having the same name or the same Epithet is hardly uncommon either.

[Talkingfox]

I think that one of the problems in standard re-creationism is that the geographic area that we're speaking of here is HUGE. If one considers that the worship of just Frejr, fr'instance, spanned the area from the Baltic to the Arctic Circle, well hey, that's a whole lot of tribal variation.

I've not heard of any 'cult ' activity around Loki either....but the lack of a cult in no way undercuts the importance of the form. IMO using the idea of organized worship sites as a yardstick for any sort of importance to any of these forms is an erroneous one.

Firstly, we've got the problem that most building in the area was of wood....which doesn't keep so well.

Second, I think that the idea of the importance of "cult' observances imposes a ceremonial model on practices which are more inherently shamanic in nature, particularly the farther north one goes.

There are rarely evidences of 'cult' activity in shamanic practice....and even more rarely images or votive items attached to 'trickster' type godforms. A prime example of this is Coyote in Native American beliefs. Very few images, little evidence of any cults, yet a HUGE place in the mythic.

Makes sense if one thinks it through into practice on a larger scale IMO...after all I don't know that invoking Loki or Coyote or any of the other myriad Trickster forms would be a good idea on a societal level.

It could, however, be a laugh riot to watch....:mtongue: