The UFC

[Zaii]

Any other fans of the UFC or other mixed martial arts competition?

I've got some thoughts about the recent event UFC 67 and was wondering if anyone is up for discussion.

[Wezzard]

I just got over Rich Franklins' loss *Edit: Back in Oct.

Did Lutter end up beating Silva ?

I prefer strikers, so I hope Silva.

What's your pref. ?

[Zaii]

Actually Lutter didn't even make weight, and given a second chance to do so, failed again. I think that's incredibly disrespectful to your opponent, your fans, the promoter, whoever is signing your paycheck, and all the people who helped get you to where you are. Silva agreed to still fight him even though he was heavy (though it became a non-title match), and what really was salt in the wound for Lutter was that Silva submitted him with a triangle choke from his back, when Lutter had been talking so much about how "when Silva got put on his ass he would be in trouble". There are people who would kill for the opportunity to fight in the UFC, and for someone to squander something like that, especially a title shot, it's ridiculous.

I don't have a preference of striking vs grappling, I love watching rounded fighters, but I really hate it when it's painfully obvious a guy in MMA competition doesn't work on a particular area of his game. For instance, some guys have such a sloppy ground game they often don't close their guard altogether when they get taken down, or when a guy gets put in a thai clinch and you see him freeze because he has no clue what to do. I also hate watching Chuck Liddel fight because frankly it's as boring as watching paint dry, you know he'll do nothing but throw punches and stick takedown attempts, though the guy is immensely talented.

You have a favorite fighter?

[Wezzard]

Yeah, Rich Franklin ! That's why I said I only "just got over..." It wasn't just watching him beat ass-after-ass with all-around excellence that appealed either; it was when they spotlighted his training regimen during the show-case special of the Middleweight Champ. Thought 'he's a virtual Terminator' cardio-wise.

Did you catch this fight ? I watched it over & over trying to figure why the battleplan just didn't come off that time. Silva broke his nose in 3 different places--- it looked even more painful knowing that. (Secret quandary on why rooting for Silva @SilvaVs.Lutter: So "Ace" can come back and topple him !)

Interesting update, that's some unexpected stuff with Lutter. Good riddance though, I thought he was being ballyhood too far anyway. Why would anyone agree to fight w/o a title shot though ? What's the point ?

record sound); Didn't Ace just make his first re-appearance @UFC 67 ?(Broken

What's your thoughts on Tim Silvia ? I think he's a decent brawler who's basically ontop in great part due to sheer size. Randy Couture wants to come back justo knock'm on his ass for "fighting not to lose rather than to win". Problem is Couture's a bigger bore than him ! (Catch that Couture-Rodriguez [sp?] fight ? 5 rounds, utter boredom).

Can't say I agree with you on Liddel though; I can't imagine how anyone cannot be on the edge of their seat during one of those.

How long have you been a fan ? I was 'there' from the first bloody spectacle (Jan'96 via. videotape). Inferior fighters yes, but boy that lawlessness made for some wild surprises !

[Zaii]

I didn't catch the Silva vs Franklin fight when it was first aired but have seen it since. It looked to me that Silva being taller and lankier had the advantage in the thai clinch (not that franklin is a slouch skill wise) and really just stuck it to him. Plus his striking overall was on point that night. I would love to see a rematch.

I think Lutter is highly overhyped (though he could probably kick my ass), and I think even less of him given this weight incident. By the way, the reason the fight still went on was that if Lutter won, it was in the cards that he might get another shot at the title, but now that's totally out the window from what I heard.

If Tim Sylvia got hit by a bus tomorrow, I could not be any happier. I have no love for that tool what so ever. Before his fight with Jeff Monson, he said something along the lines of, "Monson has disrespected the soldiers and the president, so I'm going to win this one for them", because Monson came out openly against the war in Iraq. Monson never pulls punches when it comes to his politics and it's even cost him sponsorships, which I respect highly. Oh, and he has something Tim doesn't - brain cells. The guy has got a bachelors and masters degree, and before he fought fully professionally he did work as a child/family counselor. He can also hold a pretty good interview, something that seems to escape Tim Sylvia's caveman mentality.

If Sylvia wasn't the size of an ogre, he wouldn't have that belt, not to mention if the heavyweight division wasn't so devoid of talent (minus Monson moving up, and now crocop has come to the UFC). I sincerely hope Randy Couture beats that stupid look off of his face.

I've followed the UFC passively since 2001, but only seriously got into it in the last year or so.

Have you ever seen Genki Sudo fight?

Oh, and Franklin is coming back at 68, as is Matt Hughes.

[hitman777]

Suckily, I can't get PayperView here, it's not even an option on my TV or TV Guide channel, for some reason. So I'm always stuck waiting forever until they come out on DVD or are aired on Spike.
Lutter lost? Wow. Because I know that he talked a big deal of shit beforehand.
Whatever happened to Orlovski? Even though his fangs mouthpiece is ridiculous, that guy is a badass.
Couture is a also a favorite of mine, I'm glad that he is coming out of retirement.

[Wezzard]

LOL. Yeah, I hear you on that Zaii. How about: Tim the 'Cavemaniac' ?!

Correct me it my stats are wrong : Franklin @ 6'1 Vs. Silva @ 5'11.

I saw Silva winning the thai clinch by standing back at maybe 30-40 degree angle whereas franklin at 15-20 degees. Richs' knee would just meet empty air whilst Silvas' would come crashing in from way back. You'd think standing back at such angle would make the head susceptible to knee strikes but that never happened, perplexing...me...him...a few others ?

And Crocop a 'heavyweight Liddel' with tree-stump kicking power, lookout ! Just that 1-sec. shot of his shin slamming into whoevers' face, sold me right there. 'That's a Heavyweight ?!'

I'm not familiar w/Genki. Did he impress you ? What weight class ?

What are your thoughts on GSP. btw ? (Welterweight Champ).
Just sittin' on the fence for me, thank you.

[Zaii]

Franklin is taller, I meant to say that Silva looked lankier to me but typed taller for some reason. My bad. I don't know the stats on their reach but it wouldn't surprise me if Silva had a bit of an advantage. The reason I suspect this is that besides the physical appearance, he can lock in a very tight body triangle on his opponents from the guard, which to get a tight one is very hard to do unless your opponent is considerably smaller than you, or you have very long legs. Regardless I also think that Franklin, while not necessarily underestimating Silva, probably didn't give him full credit for his talent, and that might have cost him. The rematch, whenever it goes down, I look forward to highly.

Genki Sudo fights at 155, and is definitely my favorite MMA fighter of all time. You really have to see his fights for it to be done justice, but he's so calm during bouts he does a myriad of absurd and hilarious things, such as: doing the robot, crazed flying kicks (which occasionally connect and have never cost him a fight, unlike when most people try to use them) turning his back to his opponent and crab walking towards them.....the list goes on. He gets in the craziest matches. He fought Butterbean, who weighs like 260 or something, and brought him down with a rebounding flying kick off the ropes, which he then turned into a heel hook for the win. Albeit Butterbean is not exactly a technician in the MMA world but he still has knockout power, and a gigantic weight advantage.

Not to mention his entrances are the most entertaining I've ever seen. Costumes, lights, dancing, it's no surprise the guy has a performance arts degree.The kicker is that he's an immensely respectful guy. He always bows to his opponent at the conclusion of the fight, and sticks around near them to make sure they're okay and can stand before he celebrates. Not to mention he's flat out hilarious. I mean seriously, read some of the stuff in the diary section on his website: http://genkisudo.com/en/index.html#

Honestly I wasn't holding my breath on CroCop as I had only seen highlight reels and never a full fight, but he really impressed me (not that Eddie Sanchez wasn't a can to beat. He didn't have a chance), mainly because he stood stone still during the pre-fight, which you only see a handful of guys be able to do as there's a lot of nervous energy in there, it demonstrates serious willpower. Plus hey, what heavyweight kicks that fast, as you said.

GSP seems to me to be a very well rounded fighter and fairly down to earth guy, though I wish Matt Hughes had held on to his title.

Not UFC related, but are you going to catch the Frank Shamrock vs Renzo Gracie fight this saturday?

Hitman, Orlovski fought two events go and won, I suspect he's notching up victories before he takes a run at the title.

[Wezzard]

(What follows is a tedious hunt'n peck re-type. Having all kinds of sticky power problems here)

If someones short but w/ orangutans' arms, no reach advantage for opponent, good point.
I've been back at that box-type thinking again !

Genkis' an interesting guy alright. Had to check your link after that itinery of his antics to
make sure you weren't on Lewis Carol ! Would've read more of his diary but for the migrainish-
font. Looks like last in UFC47 ? Fights for "Max" MMA mostly ? 155lbs. is Lightweight ? (Heavy,
light-heavy, middle, welter... how many divisions are there anyway ?)

This relates to another question I was gonna ask sooner or later; how do you think BruceLee
would've fared with the UFC ? 'Able to take on much bigger opponents w/o being able to';
kinda koanish. Darn those divisions anyway. Keeps things fair, ya, ya; back in the old outlaw
days small guys oft' took out big lunks with room to spare too. Like Genki does.

I won't be checking into Sham/Gracie this Saturnday for same as Hitman; I chew whatever bones
SpikeTV throws out. Is Renzo related to Royce ? Oh !...

When RoyceGracie fought Hughes, do you happen to know w/ or w/o his worn-out gi ? Never seen'm
w/o it.

[Zaii]

I honestly can't give a verdict on Bruce. I know he probably would have accepted matches against much larger opponents, and he did incorporate some of the popular modern aspects of groundfighting but it wasn't a big part of his curriculum. I would love to see what would have happened, but unfortunately we'll never know. Although I'm glad that Dana White credits Bruce with being one of the innovators of MMA, as it seems to be the "hip" thing to do to hate on him. My reply is that it's very easy to say disrespectful things about someone who could never get you within arms reach, and further than that, is dead.

Shamrock v. Gracie is on Showtime tonight, incase you get cable. Yes, Shamrock is of the famed Shamrock family as is Gracie.

When Royce fought Hughes....well he didn't get embarassed, but Hughes had a commanding victory. He immediately put Royce on his back, and then powered through his guard for a pass, putting him in rear mount, and punched him 17 times in the head before the referee stopped it. I don't think any gi would have saved him. Matt is superhuman.

[Zaii]

....and in one of the strangest endings I've ever seen, Shamrock is under Gracie's side control, his legs up on the cage, Gracie is working for position, Shamrock brings two knees down to the back of Gracie's head. Ref stops the fight, gives Gracie five minutes to recover from an illegal strike, Gracie has to be helped out of the ring, and wins by DQ. Guess Shamrock was used to fighting in japan where knees to the head on the ground are legal.

[Wezzard]

I disagree with that whole concept of certain strikes being made illegal. The whole point of this is to see who'd actually win in a real-life street brawl ?

SpikeTV just re-ran UltimateKnockouts 1 & 2; do you ever check out UFCs' early days ? Sometimes you see the octogon broke open by the bullishness. Check out the refereeing by J.MaCarthy in UFC2 RenkoPardoelVs.OrlandoWeit; Renko elbows Orlando flat out cold from his back who's beneath on the floor; then looks up at Macarthy like 'Well ?'; Macarthy leans over 'Whatcha got ?

Little later @ PatSmithVs.ScottMorris(believe this guy was into Ninjutsu). Pat mounts Morris out cold w/ flurry of face punches, looks up and shouts something to a seemingly preoccupied Mcarthy and gets up & walks away of his own accord. Macarthy may've been ordering peanuts. Pat seemed something of a crack-head. 'Course ol'Carths' the best now.

What's DQ mean ? (DQ burger sounds good)

[Zaii]

The only reason that MMA is allowed to go on legally is thats it's barred certain strikes and holds to elevate it above the level of the perception of a "street fight", and because the particular methods can cause lasting serious injury to a fighter very easily or are perceived as overtly brutal (biting, grabbing the trachea, gouging the eyes, clutching/striking the groin, pulling hair, headbutting, knees/kicks to a floored opponent, although those last strikes are legal in japan). I for one, having been in both "street" situations and in competition, am fine with these rules for a number of reasons.

First off, if all we've got to do is impose a few rules against some shit that basically any untrained schmoe can do to get the concept of MMA legalized, I see absolutely nothing wrong. You don't have to train to learn how to pull hair, rake eyes, knee crotches, bite flesh, and kick someone when they are down. If anyone off the street can do it more or less as well as the athlete in question, what's the point?

Secondly, a large percentage of the viewing population is not prepared to see someone get their head stomped on whilst they lay prone and their attacker sets about ruining their ability to chew solid foods. It took forever to have people gel with the ground and pound approach as it is with punches, which is also significantly less likely to cause grievous injury as knees and kicks to a downed head are. If removing one small set of strikes from the options results in a ton less people calling the sport "barbaric" or "human cock fighting", that's cool with me.

Third, I've had fingers gouged into my eyes, and frankly it's mostly just ridiculous, and has a low percentage of success anyway. On the other hand, there was a guy in japan who lost sight in one eye due to a similar problem, and only didn't get damaged worse than that because his next opponent was enough of a sportsman to not strike his head, and to grapple him for the win.

Now, as to the Shamrock vs Gracie fight.....a DQ is a disqualification. I know that Shamrock meant to hit him in the head with his knees, and here are my thoughts.

1) Shamrock said after the fight, "I thought he was going to move his head after the first one". While that sounds ridiculous, in watching the playback, you can see Shamrock tap gracie on the head, then move his own hand to clear the path, and -then- strike him with the knee. It was basically a, "hey, we've been laying here for too long, can we get on with the fight?" kind of gesture, and it was announced.

2) Given that Shamrock was lying on his back, he didn't have a lot of power behind the knees, and Gracie was walking to the ambulance at the end of the broadcast unaided, even though he had to be helped out of the ring.

3) On the other hand I would not want to be kneed in the head by Frank Shamrock in my life at any point. The guy is a monster.

4) Although Shamrock fought in japan for a while, where the aforementioned technique is legal, he still knew the ruleset coming in to this fight.

As to the early UFC tapes, frankly I hate to watch them, as it's painfully obvious the early ventures were set up to showcase gracie jujutsu, and they wouldn't actually put a skilled grappler in there against him for a good while....and the cage was too short and unsteady.......and most of the fights looked like high school.....etc etc

[Wezzard]

Most able defense, well said. I agree with most everything regarding fairness stated. To wish dirty-fighting allowed would be ridiculous. Most people don't distinguish between street-fighting and dirty-fighting. I do; streetfight= agreed combat & common-sense fair play applied; dirtyfight= disagreed combat & survival mode. I was going to mention afew old UFC dirtyfights that did bother me in fact.

"...certain strikes being made illegal". Who's ever been hurt by an elbow careening down over the top of the head ? (!) I seen Gracie use it effectively w/o any maimery resulting. Believe eye gouging, groin strikes always were illegal btw.

The UFC was not cooked to allow Gracie Jujitsu reign. Watch the Kimo/Gracie duel to see how close an extremely determined Kimo comes; I believe Gracie only won by 'the hair of Kimos' head' infact.

The Ufc only got to where it is today by dint of evolution. The premiere primates see what works ando likewise. Think, for instance, there always was a bunch of blazingly fast guitar shredders hiding out in the woodwork waiting for the right moment to burst onscene; nothing doing, they all eyed EVHalen, copied & came out even faster with his 2-handed tapping technique. Just as the other group of primates seen one of theirs washing bananas ina stream and did likewise. There was atime when fighters had no idea whato do pushed up against the cage; Huas came up with foot-stomping and soon everyone & his monkey was doing so. It's called evolution and the UFC commentators use it themselves.

And that is why you should watch the humble beginnings of the UFC with more than a dismissive regard as talentless twit has-beens. I learnt far more from those early-ons than anything going on today. Blackbelt Karate vs. black belt Judo, which'll win ? How well does an experienced steetfighter do against Jujitsu ? How important is size ? Nowadays you don't really learn anything because they're all too well-rounded & top-end, unless you're into full bore training yourself.

[Zaii]

You're telling me you don't find it the least bit suspicious that the commentators had all this background information on Gracie that they would mention at key points, painting as lovable a picture of him as possible, mentioning Helio and the rest of his family, etc, yet they never really did this for other fighters? If so, alrighty then, maybe I'm sniffing the paranoid glue, but it still seems out of place to me. While I never said anything about "reign", the early fights do not pit Gracie against grapplers as competent as he, and therefore to me look like a showcase.

I have seen the Kimo fight. It was hard for Gracie because Kimo outweighed him by something like 80 lbs. Not because he was actually as skilled a grappler as Royce.

Helio is quoted as saying ".....that's why [Royce] is doing the Ultimate Fighting Championship to show people he can subdue his opponents without kicking, without punching, without hurting - He doesn't need to hit; he doesn't need to hurt."

....which kind of astounds me, because if you watch his fight with that "kung fu" fellow, he blatantly holds a vertical armbar a good four seconds past the guy tapping out, and snaps his arm, when it was entirely unneccesary. This isn't the only incidence of this type of event.

I'm not detracting from his ability as a fighter at all, things just look a little fishy to me.

While I never said anyone was a twit or a has-been, and I don't understand why you felt the need to put words in my mouth, I also never said I didn't see any value in the early UFC fights, I just said I generally hate watching them. Actually for the very reason you mentioned, in that most of the fighters are so poorly matched. If I wanted to watch a well rounded fighter beat the hell out of cans, I would watch professional boxing, where guys with 42-5 records flourish, but unlike figures like Matt Hughes, they didn't earn them against skilled fighters.

As far as not being able to learn anything nowdays, I'm not really sure what you mean. Sure, you don't get to see what happens when some brawler with a narrow skillset gets trounced by a grappler as often, but what's the point in that anyway? There are plenty of good fights that go on now, and I'd say more than ever, because the game demands a certain level of dedication to succeed (or in Tim Sylvia's case, being born a troll).

[oak]

i did a bit of youtubin' and found this, weird/nutty:


Genki pays a visit to Dr. Rod Sacharnoski's (Soke Shodai) Juko Kai dojo. Juko Kai is better known as "Combat Ki", a Ki generating art which allows the practitioner to withstand full force strikes to the body's most vital areas, seemingly without effect or damage to the recipient. It was featured on The Discovery Channel's Way Of The Warrior.

And, Genki doesn't pull any punches or kicks either! How the frig' can they take it?!

Genki Sudo VS. Juko Kai:
Part - 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhUGKsfklHQ)
Part - 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njxuc3M0oTQ)
Part - 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpquRC87_u4)

:o_O:

[Zaii]

That's actually somewhat baffled me for a while. The guys are at best riding a gimmick, and clearly aren't trained athletes. My thoughts are that it lies in pain tolerance training more than anything, and definitely isn't "Combat ki", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

[oak]

i'm sure they've taped their nuts out of the way, that or they're eunuchs. i know this because i FEEL when someone takes a hit to the nuts, but not here. :)
the hits to the windpipe kinda weird me out tho.

[Zaii]

Anyone see 68 last night? The Couture vs Sylvia fight was legendary.

[Wezzard]

Dammit all. Do tell.

[Zaii]

Sylvia as per usual talked trash about how unstoppable he was, claiming to be the best heavyweight in the world, amongst other exaggerations. Couture, as per his typical profile, was humble. Most were just hoping Couture wouldn't get hurt and the fight would be a good one. In the first four seconds Couture dropped Sylvia with an overhand right, and took his back, which he held for the duration of the first round. The look of panic on Sylvia's face was priceless. Each and every round afterwards, Couture, to pretty much the shock of everyone, utterly dominated the standup and the groundwork, displaying incredible footwork and upper body movement in order to evade the longer reach of Sylvia, and displaying again his incredible strength by basically manhandling a man six inches taller and sixty lbs heavier. In the end, Couture won a unanimous decision to take the title.

[Wezzard]

Gads. Thought Sylvia had that one.

That's 3 top-line fighters Couture has upset now; Sylvia, Liddel and there was Vitor Belfour afew years ago. Belfour reminded me of a handsome Charles Atlas. You're not keen on the older UFC's, but that guy was amazingly explosive. "Couture stole his heart", they said. I remember the same panicked perplexity in Belfour you describe in poor Timmys' eyes. Couture must be unorthodox in a way not too obvious on tv.

Like the rich detail of your descripts.

Got a smokin' Ace up your sleeve ?

[Zaii]

Indeed, Franklin won his fight after his opponent submitted between the second and third rounds. He spent a significant portion of the second round punching in Mcdonald's guard and he scored way too many direct hits on his head for Mcdonald to stay in the fight.

[m1thr0s]

just so some of us have some idea who you're are talking about:


http://www.cbc.ca/cp/sports/070115/s011547A.jpg


Randy (The Natural) Couture


m1thr0s

[Zaii]

Thanks chief, good idea.

In the same vein, his opponent: http://i18.tinypic.com/42jj6uq.jpg

6'8, 265 lbs (cut, the night of the fight he's more around 280). Tim also tested positive for steroid use some years ago.


Couture is 6'2'', at 220 lbs, and has had no such controversy regarding steroids.

[Wezzard]

The "Ace" of the deck

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/Pentupaggression/Rich-Franklin-Pic.jpg


"Psalm 144:1 - Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"



Thanx for contributing M1, good to see you here.

[m1thr0s]

Thanx for contributing M1, good to see you here.oh yeah...I don't presume to really know any of this stuff but it all interests me at least. I think I am especially curious as to what kinds of occult knowledge would be deemed useful to these kinds of individuals...people accustomed to testing their theories out in the heat of physical contest. Probably most of them would simply blow it all off without giving it any further thought and I would have to dismiss those as simple athletes really...no particular art to their thinking. Still I can't help thinking that some would find some of it compelling from their own life experience and this intrigues me. Can't help wondering what kinds of occult crap might appeal to a guy like Couture...lol...

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

oh yeah...I don't presume to really know any of this stuff but it all interests me at least. I think I am especially curious as to what kinds of occult knowledge would be deemed useful to these kinds of individuals...people accustomed to testing their theories out in the heat of physical contest. Probably most of them would simply blow it all off without giving it any further thought and I would have to dismiss those as simple athletes really...no particular art to their thinking. Still I can't help thinking that some would find some of it compelling from their own life experience and this intrigues me. Can't help wondering what kinds of occult crap might appeal to a guy like Couture...lol...

m1thr0s
http://genkisudo.com/en/index.html#

That's an MMA fighter with a great record who wrote his own book about "the spiritual realm". Albeit the english is comically bad, but the message is there.

There was also a contestant on the UFC's reality show a few years back who blatantly used Chaos Magick.

[m1thr0s]

hey...that's a nice looking site...interesting fellow...

Chaos Magick makes sense for a fighter in many ways...most of it is all about direct action anyway with a keen sense of testing things out and a healthy disdain of anything standing solely on the strength of so-called "tradition" etc... I lean a lot that way myself... it's almost a necessity if you are forging new directions of any kind.

m1thr0s

[Wezzard]

I've always got my eye on standby for any occultish advantage too. Way back form UFC2 til it must've been the 30s' the Royce Gracie family always walked down the aisle with their arms out, hands on shoulder-to-shoulder in consecutive fashion. They'd all walk with faces floorward, eyes closed, even some lips moving as if in some kind of prayer-chain pouring their energy into Royce. It was rather ritualistic looking and the fact he was unstoppable until he left, undefeated, made me suspect some subtle law of magnetic transference or what-have wasn't being invoked.

When my "Ace" lost to "Spider" Silva, alot of people saw him enter the octogon (an 8 sided chain fence in which the fighters are literally locked in for the fights' duration) as "not the Franklin I know". The higher warriors end up wizard; he'd already lost the battle. In the face-off moment just before the bell rang,
Ace clasps his hands & nods a quick prayer whilst Spider cuts the cross bodily. Superior invocation ?
One offers a prayer up to god whilst the other draws down a completer circuit ?

Worth a laugh at least.