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Talkingfox
02-09-2007, 11:50 PM
Ragnarök is one of those Nordic concepts that is IMO more misrepresented than any other. It's been used synonymously with a literal Armageddon which I think is totally erroneous.
For those not familiar with the myth I offer a translation without the prevalent "more archaic/arcane than thou" tone that I can't stand.

Yeah I know it's long...it's distilled from 5 different sagas...please bear with me here.

Ragnarök for Dummies or how I quit worrying and learned to love the Jotun.
A personal, grammatically mangled and grossly parenthetical Translation/Analysis

* With appropriate nods to the late Mr. Kubrick*

Note: Asides other than the smart assed variety are in italic. Actual concepts of the myth that I deem important symbology are in bold type. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

The Myth:

Ragnarok is preceded by 3 successive winters with no summer (Fimbulwinter). As a result, all sorts of cultural ickiness ensues and all morality is flipped on its ass.
The sun and the moon are eaten by Jotun Wolves and all the stars burn out.
Earthquakes, tsunami and other natural disasters break every bond…including those that hold the bad guys (i.e. Fenris wolf, the midgard serpent, etc.)

Eggther (the Jotunside of Heimdal) finds this all very amusing, parks it on his own grave mound and plays his harp, grinning like a chipmunk.

The earth and sky are nastified by poison spewed by the freed Jormundgandr (Midgard serpent)
The Asa, the Jotun and the dead are called to action by 3 cocks. (Of the CHICKEN variety, you twisted f***)

Armies come sailing to Asgard; from the North, Loki, Hel and the dead (who are used as ballast) from the East, the Jotun in a very nifty ship made from the nails of dead men.

From the South (Muspel), Surtr (The Grand High Poopoo of fire giants) comes and fries everything with the “Sword of Revenge”…and I mean everything. The Sky splits and falls.
As this company approaches, Bifrost (the Rainbow bridge linking Asgard with the otherworlds) cracks up.

All 9 worlds of Yggdrasil shake as a result of the sheer noise.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Heimdal just happens to notice all of this brouhaha (took him long enough! So much for hearing grass grow) and blows Gjallerhorn which can be heard through all 9 worlds.
This wakes the gods (apparently napping through all of this) who go for a confab. Odin splits on Sleipnir to Mimrs well and has a powwow with Mimr as to course of action.

All the Aseir and Einherjar (transl. One- Army i.e. lots of dead guys from Valhalla) gear up and hit the field of battle led by Odin, replete with Spear and Magic Helmet.

Frejr fights Surtr for a long time but is the first of the gods to croak as he has given his sword to his servant, quite some time ago, over a girl. Odin and Fenrir go at it. Odin gets eaten. Thor smacks Jörmungandr in the head with his hammer. The snake buys it but yacks poison all over Thor who also buys it. Tyr and the Garmarn (Hellhound) fall to fighting; likewise Heimdal and Loki. He dies, they die, everybody dies.

Vidar, Odin’s son, understandably pissed off over the munching of dad, stomps on Fenrir’s lower jaw with a shoe he’s has been making since time began. He grabs the wolf’s upper jaw and gives him a splitting (and lethal) headache. Finally, Surtr torches what’s left of the 9 worlds with the Sword of Revenge. He himself goes up like a roman candle, leaving only a pile of ash and illogic. Everything dies and smells real bad. What’s left of the sky torches like dry kindling and the earth slides into the sea.

One field of Asgard survives the torching and barley grows where nobody planted it.

A new baby sun girl makes her appearance and takes up where her mom left off, who had apparently given birth to her just before becoming wolf chow. No wonder she couldn’t run.

Odin's sons Vidar and Váli, Thor's sons Móði and Magni, who inherit their father's magic hammer Mjollnir, survive. Hœnir lives, holds a staff and tells people obscure and mostly unintelligible kennings of the future. Baldr and his brother Höðr, who’ve been on Ice in Hel, take over tenancy of Valhalla (which in previous stanzas had burned to the ground that had slid into the sea). All these guys (and No women!!??) sit in the barley field and jaw about what happened. They find the last remaining doodad from Asgard which happens to be a golden game board. They think it’s cool.

This is where things get uber weird as opposed to Wyrd. Most of the following is From the Prose Edda only. See personal analysis below.

Two humans escape the destruction of the world by chickening out and hotfooting it to Hoddmímir's Forest (aligned to Mimr’s Well which is under the roots of the now charcoal world tree at the base of the burned out 9 worlds). Their names are Lif and Lifthrasir (Trans. Life masc. and fem. Ok this is Bob…and his wife, Bob), they live on dew, get very busy and repopulate the world which has, in previous stanzas, slid into the sea.
They then bow and scrape to their new/old and previously on ice gods, headed up by Baldr.

Two back up and fireproof heavens survive Surtr’s temper tantrum: south by south up of Asgard, Andlang; further above that another, Vidblain, just in case the other heavens are in the wash.
The very best hall in the new heaven is Gimle, provided one can get in without being blinded by the roof which is entirely gold and brighter than the sun. Other halls include, Brimir, a hall on Okolnir (Trans: Never Cold) that has a really great bar with no cover charge and Sindri, an excellent but weighty hall made entirely of red gold, on Nidafjoll (trans. Dark Mountains). The souls of the virtuous (and by default boring) pal around with the gods in an eternal pub crawl that never breaks out into a brawl or spew fest.

The last hall is in the underworld and called Náströnd (Trans: corpse strand). It’s ginormous and never sees the sun; all its doors face north, letting in one Hel of a draft; its walls and roof are made of wattled snakes, heads facing in, secreting torrents of poison. The chilly assholery of the world ( Including, but not limited to: oath breakers, murderers and philanderers, oh my) spend eternity slogging about knee deep in the poison.

Hvergelmir (a spring at the ginnugagap, poisonous source of all cold rivers) and Níðhöggr (the beastie that chews on the roots of the World tree which has ostensibly already burned down), do nasty things to the dead (Including, but not limited to, slurping up all their blood ; just how a spring can do that is about as logical as it’s existence at this point).

In this shiny, happy world, nobody is miserable ever, except for the pasty slobs living in Náströnd. Gods and men will live together in peace and harmony and inspire sappy soundtrack music for shitty films like “The 13th Warrior”. Lif and Lifthrasir’s kids and their subsequent inbred spawn inhabit Midgard and hopefully find something to eat besides dew.




Personal analysis aka Views from a Broad:
There are of course, depending on the poet, variations of who lives and who dies. The only constants are as follows: Baldur ( perfection held in stasis in the subconscious{hel}) , his wife Nana(Self sacrifice in duty) , his blind brother Hoder (reunification of opposing yet directly linked selves), Hoenir (the neutral observer and silent council) , Lif and Lifthrasir (applied life force). In most of the poems (with the exception of Sturlsson) there is no separation of the new Asgard/Midgard mentioned implying a union of spheres of existence and only Sturlsson mentions the ‘worshiping’ of the new gods.

The alignment of Hoddmímir's Forest with Mimr’s well places it outside the 9 worlds, therefore outside of time/space. The concept of the well as source of undivided past/present/future memory resonates here; it makes sense that it should survive the destruction of artificial applications of said memory, including Mimr himself. The Norns as keepers of Fate sit at the lip of the well, situated at the base of the World tree and logically speaking would get torched.

In my kenning Sturlsson is unsuccessfully trying to fuse 2 very different worldviews. Snorri seemed to be a bit of a literalist as well as a mediocre poet; either that or he was trying to justify the myth to his monkish editors so that it would survive.
[Dude, You just wrote that heaven burns down. Whatta ya mean heaven burns down????? Hell Too???? We can’t have no heaven and no hell!!! It’s just not proper! All of this, of course, being discussed with much waving about of a red pencil and lit match]


The only afterlife structure mentioned in all of the poems and sagas that I’ve read is the hall Gimle, built on the one surviving meadow of Asgard. It seems to have little significance beyond a pretty and expensive mead hall that everybody hangs out in, thus restating the concept of peaceful unity. If all is living in peace and harmony why does one need spewed rivers of poison, intended for nastiness that isn’t supposed to exist anymore, anyways???? I find it interesting that Snorri spent more stanzas describing the pains of the new hell than the glory of the new heavens that he invented.

IMO Sturlsson is trying to take a myth that is emblematic of the individual internal process and make it a literal one. Ragnarök is about the destruction of out grown modeling and dissolution of boundaries, not about the imposition of a new set, no matter how “pretty”. IMO it also addresses the growth/entropy/death/growth cycle that’s also addressed in the Indian Yugas. The Norse were/are nothing if not hip to cause and effect.

Ratatosk
02-10-2007, 12:18 AM
A couple things to consider:

Odin's sons Vidar and VáliAhh, more twisted fun when looking at an oral and poetic tradition: In the Lokasenna, Loki's sons are named Váli and Narfi. It is with Váli's entrails that Loki is bound. Now this begs the question, is this an old Norse name akin to 'John' or yet another clue to the Odin = Loki riddle?

Also, I find it telling of where Sturluson's loyalties lay when he adds this new hell, and adds 'philanderers' to those who are tortured there. In the far North, women were not treated as property, nor was philandery a crime. In fact, travelers were often invited in as guests and the host's wife (if of child bearing age) or daughter (if of child bearing age) was offered to the guest. Not for the guest's enjoyment, but for the chance to enhance the gene pool.

m1thr0s
02-10-2007, 05:35 AM
Somehow that reads out like so many books I have read...stunning plot development arriving at a completely unremarkable finale...

Humans really are related to monkeys afterall, aren't they...no matter what we do, we just can't seem to equilibrate the star parts of our natures.

The only damn gods I intend to live with will be wall hangings thank you very much...I am infinitely more interested in universes than heavens and infinitely more interested in being one than owning one, let alone renting space in one of the damn things...

We just can't do it...we just can't think big enough to get the godamm apple peeled.

One way or another...the real conclusion to this story is going to be a satisfying ending if I have to write the son of a bitch myself.

just my (slightly annoyed) take on things...

m1thr0s

Talkingfox
02-10-2007, 07:06 AM
Leave it to you m1 to go directly to where I was hoping this would.:yes:

I truly understand your annoyance, which is why the translation took the tone it did, especially with the Sturlsson stuff. He flat pisses me off. In trying to impose a literalist/post xtian spin on the concept he totally obfuscated the meat of it.

In the original tellings the 'gods' are implied to be kin. Kin, in the Nordic, has the further implication of being an extension of self, both in the literal and figurative. Be a god? Absolutely. The idea is that one already is one by birthright but is confined by artificial constructs. Which are highly flammable.


Before Sturlsson the story was left open ended...no heaven, no underworld, no fate. Just life, universal memory, and the perfect self that had been held in the subconscious all along, awaiting release.

Edit: I feel a need to add that Sturlsson is the single most quoted source for re-creationists. And they do. Often. Verbatim. Requires no thought on their part I think. A poem structured in a kenning is supposed to be pondered over and internalized. That is the very reason for the structure of the writing. But why should they think when one can be spoonfed, eh? Sorry... a personal sore spot.

m1thr0s
02-10-2007, 09:40 AM
aside from grandiose displays of semi-intelligent, self-righteous troglodytism in certain oh-so special spokepersons for the divine, one of the most apparent weak links common to all ancient mythologies comes down to us in the form of a distorted image of the gods themselves.

I am a little more familiar with mediteranean basin lineages where "the gods" very often start out as literal "stars" in the literal heavens and somehow wind up some kind of symbolic schlucks in some other kind of heaven...not much different than your average wednesday nite bar crowd, replete with sordid financial worries, stupid legal entanglements and foiled sexual exploits...

we great great great grandchildren seem to have been made the unwitting inheritors of a caliber of gods unsuitable to lead a pack of rats around a trash heap by those who must surely have known what they were up to, considering the regularity with which this same tactic has been employed over and over again.

Consumer Alert: If a god bears a remarkable resemblance to a dim-witted dog...it probably is one...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu
02-10-2007, 11:24 AM
When it comes to gods, I always like to cross reference the concept with the Australian Dreamtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime). Whether a god is developed from a local spirit or not, they are all inevitably tied to certain locations, and when their people change location completely, the gods they take with them are transplanted onto new locations. In the case of Wales, the Welsh formed the native population of all Britain south of the Antonine Wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_wall) in Scotland. By the 9th century the only part of Native Britain still standing was Wales, which -apart from its own indigenous population- also housed the surviving Native Britons that had escaped the genocide in other parts of Britain. Although by this time the Welsh were nominaly Christian, the gods survived (and survive to this day) through the Bardic tradition as iconic ancestral figures whose exploits and whose natures still form a major influence on intellectual, artistic and mystic thought today (especially in post-modernist literature and art). Anyway, back to the point: the exploits of the gods, including gods and heroes from what is now called southern Scotland, were transplanted onto Welsh geography, so that every tale has an actual real location in Wales as its base, and in the case of the Four Branches of the Mabinogi, every action within the four tales is linked to a location.

What is interesting in this example as to the role of a god is the fact that the Welsh gods had already lost their official "godhood" by the time the Welsh language had developed as a distinct entity from ancient British Celtic (6th century), yet their importance in the cultural psyche has in no way been diminished.

m1thr0s
02-10-2007, 03:08 PM
It's interesting that the star-based gods seem to mostly originate from the mediteranean basin, with few exceptions. I am not sure why that is unless terrain enters into things yet again. There's a lot of desert in this whole region and I wonder if the simple prominence of the night sky might somehow figure into things. We find the same conditions in Egypt, where again the gods are principally star-based. Lusher areas or areas where the night sky might not be so accessable seem to have gone a different route. I haven't made a complete study of this though so it may just be a mistaken impression.

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu
02-10-2007, 04:15 PM
It's interesting that the star-based gods seem to mostly originate from the mediteranean basin, with few exceptions. I am not sure why that is unless terrain enters into things yet again. There's a lot of desert in this whole region and I wonder if the simple prominence of the night sky might somehow figure into things. We find the same conditions in Egypt, where again the gods are principally star-based. Lusher areas or areas where the night sky might not be so accessable seem to have gone a different route. I haven't made a complete study of this though so it may just be a mistaken impression.


Navigation has a lot to do with it. Star navigation was as essential in the desert as it was at sea.

MythMath
02-10-2007, 04:42 PM
Good point, CCD...

No landmarks in the evershifting, everflowing spans of sand or sea...

Ratatosk
02-10-2007, 04:59 PM
The Nordic view has always been more existential and introspective in nature. The Norse gods are so terribly flawed because they are an expanded version of human experience. As 'elder kin' they are an extension of the individual approaching them. As such the gods were both seen as very real entities, and as artificial constructs, providing a mechanism by which one can better understand one's environment/existence. In the end they burn up because they are artificial and flawed, and no longer needed. I think the whole point of the Ragnarök myth is that every individual possesses within themselves the essence of godhood, but that essence is hidden under layers of learned artifice, societal boundaries, and flawed internal structures that need to be 'burned away' to get at what's real.

Hmmm, spending long winters locked indoors with one's kin, your choices are long, quiet, introspection, or a total mental breakdown! :laugh:

Ci Celli Ddu
02-10-2007, 05:30 PM
Hmmm, spending long winters locked indoors with one's kin, your choices are long, quiet, introspection, or a total mental breakdown!

Are there any seasonal split personalities evident in Norse mythology? I know the Finns are famous for their seasonal split personality, due to difference in daylight hours between winter and summer.

Ratatosk
02-10-2007, 05:49 PM
I hadn't really thought of it in regards to that, but (except for Hoenir) every one of the Norse deities has a 'flip side' - whether in their own actions, or in the form of a Jotun or monster, who ultimately end up destroying each other.

It is also interesting that the only godforms/models of behavior that survive Ragnarök are those who don't get involved in all the drama around them. Hoenir especially, who stands behind Asgard all the time, looking over the shoulders of the gods, but doesn't ever interfere. I think that links to that part of ourselves that plays 'silent counsel' and knows what's really going on, but doesn't bother to get involved in the petty happenings of life.

Ratatosk
02-10-2007, 05:59 PM
Navigation has a lot to do with it. Star navigation was as essential in the desert as it was at sea.

That very well could have a lot to do with it. The Norse pretty much used a combination of landmarks, dead reckoning and angles off the coast to navigate. There is also some suggestion that they used pieces of feldspar with a dark spot on one side to help indicate the direction of the sun during the (often) overcast days. Since the best months for travel by boat in the far north are marked by endless light (ranging from twilight to full-on day) and no stars, it makes sense that the stars didn't play so much into their cosmology.

Ci Celli Ddu
02-10-2007, 06:47 PM
Although the skies over the British Isles are often overcast, there are very definately stellar links to some of the gods. This could well be due to the maritime trading links with the Phoenicians and Greeks. During the Bronze and Iron Age there was a strong commercial maritime link with the Mediterranean, as Britain was the main source of tin. These maritime routes were controlled by the Phoenicians of Carthage who blockaded the straits of Gibraltar in order to control the route to Britain, though some intrepid Greeks such as Pytheas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas) did manage to bypass the blockade. Mediterranean vessels were not well suited to Atlantic conditions, and travel was for practical reasons restricted to the rise and fall of the Pleiades in connection with Taurus and Scorpio, between May and October.

Nuhad418
02-12-2007, 07:43 AM
The multiple interpretations of concepts such as the "end times" is so evident in the Norse myths. In reading "Our Fathers' Godsaga" (Rydberg), which is an arrangement of myths from various sources (but primarily later sources) the hostage exchange between the Aesir and Vanir was completed not due to any battle to to ensure a primordial, Edenic bliss. Clearly this is not connected to other reconnings of this act which occurred after a long and difficult battle. Then, and this made me almost snort the beer I was drinking at the time, Odin is portrayed as a benevolent figure not unlike...wait for it....Jesus. :eek: I have no issues with Jesus but holy smoke man...dollars to doughnuts Odin and JC would not play well together. ;) Thanks for this TF this is a great and entertaining resource. I will leave any annoying Jungian take on this topic for another day!


On the issue of stars...I was researching "True North" i.e. Polaris, and came across this bit of info: (http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/polaris.html)

In Scandinavian mythology the Norse gods made the Universe out of the bits and pieces of the hacked-up bodies of their defeated enemies. To finish the job they hammered an enormous spike, called Veralder Nagli, or "World Spike," into the center of the Universe and made the sky revolve about it. The end of the spike had a jeweled nail-head, which remained forever fixed on the great sky dome as Polaris.

m1thr0s
02-12-2007, 01:35 PM
careful Nuhad...you are quickly becoming a Jungian apologist! :laugh: :rofl: :laugh:

m1

Nuhad418
02-12-2007, 01:45 PM
careful Nuhad...you are quickly becoming a Jungian apologist! :laugh: :rofl: :laugh:

m1
;) Dude...becoming!? I'm on the 11th step of the "Recovering Jungian Apologist" program! Seems a waste not to use your skills, limited as they may be. :laugh: