The concepts of Karma and Samskara

[Oblio]

They have a leaky kun'd'alinii.

:laugh:

That was fascinating, thanks Amur!

This is probably for another thread, but would anyone like to talk about the concept of samskara and karma?

From this article (and reflected in other stuff I've read), samskara is action based on learned/imprinted patterns from previous experiences (essentially conditioned response), which often form unconscious blockages of energy because we do things without realising their fundamental cause. The patterns of samskara are formed by karma - karma meaning the intent underlying an action. One goal (some say the true goal) of meditation and energy work is to transcend this cycle of karma and samskara formation and the patterns which they can lock us into.

I find that a lot of people hold to the idea of karma as some cosmic principle of balance, such that good and bad people will get what they deserve in the end. This seems absurd to me because the universe doesn't really give a rats as to what I do! I rather see karma/samskara as indicating that I am the source of my own happiness/unhappiness. And ultimately, any action with an intent to bridge the gap between is and should (regardless of whether there are so-called higher intentions there) produces conditioning forces.

I'd like to talk more about this last point, but I find that words fail me.. perhaps owing to the paradoxical nature of the topic itself... (how can we act without intent? go with the flow I guess... but then how do we reconcile this with living in a culture that does not support such modes of existence? I suppose it's a matter of living "in the moment" to the extent that is possible for us... /rambling thoughts)

[m1thr0s]

I rather see karma/samskara as indicating that I am the source of my own happiness/unhappiness. And ultimately, any action with an intent to bridge the gap between is and should (regardless of whether there are so-called higher intentions there) produces conditioning forces.That is true I think, although happiness/unhappiness are less a part of karmic doctrine than freedom/bondage issues. The doctrine of Karma is profoundly important but it does have a few logical holes in it depending on whose rendition you go with. Personal liberation is not entirely rooted in personal action/inaction where a group dynamic is implicated in the restriction itself, and the doctrine of Karma has cowered in the face of this dilemma, creating an East-Indian version of the Just-World-Premise complicit in the whole Caste System, for instance. It has tended to reject the concept of Group Karma as an integrated part of Individual Karma, and this is a logical fallacy at the end of the day. But aside from this it is one of the most important principles to be found in eastern metaphysics I think.

m1thr0s

[Oblio]

And in western philosophy I'd say.

It is at the heart of the question of free will/determination.

[m1thr0s]

yes, self-determinism generally. It's a little hard to argue with cause & effect once those cards are laid out clearly. For 2000 years the whole strategy of the Holy Roman Church was simply to disallow them to be played at all as a matter of Heresy...something which has finally come to bite them in the ass just as the doctrine of cause & effect itself might have easily predicted...you can't deny the laws of nature without becoming something unnatural in the end.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

EDIT: The discussion at the thread Kundalini and Subtle Body theory (http://www.forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1152) got diverted to this subject, so I think a new thread for it would be best.

Kain

[Kain]

Very good points really. Actually, I must agree with m1thr0s that the concept of Karma is one of the most profound and important ones that Eastern metaphysics offered to the world. It is also usually badly and abhoringly superficially understood. A very common viewpoint is the one you mentioned Oblio, about it being a cosmic principle of balance that rewards those that do "good" and punishes those that do "bad". Quite a childish and rediculous concept really...and not even remotely close to the actual deal.

I think it was Buddha who said: "One is not punished for one's sins, one is punished by them". I think this is a good starting premise to look at the principle of Karma in it's correct light, one of *mechanical resolution* of what is built up through action. Action always causes reaction, cause - an effect, it is as simple and impersonal as that in a way and that is why it is a factor that cannot in any way be ignored, it being intricately interwoven in Reality itself in the deepest of levels.

Now, I would have to agree about the apparent paradox we are faced with in resolving the karmic problem. I should also point out however that, like all paradoxes, it appears as such until one manages to pass to the other side of the equation and see it from a higher enough ground. The interesting thing is that the same pattern persists on a higher and macrocosmic level, following one in one's ascent. This is connected with the recursive tendency of things in general though, so I will leave it for another time. So, returning to our original subject of karma and samskara, I think that the discussion here evidently becomes one about *Correct Action*. Now, in the field of Correct Action, we find ourselves in a system that functions through cause and effect and yet we want to somehow discriminate between "correct" cause and cause of inferior "correctness", both of these bringing about equivalent effects. Looking at this situation seriously and clearly, I think it is quite evident that there is a profound statement of a potential of "personal liberation", since there is a recognition of the importance of Action and how that, if properly directed, can lead one to new heights of realization of one's essential nature.

Since this becomes a quite personal subject, placing the responsibility of bettering one's situation upon one's own self, I think it is fair to say that the way to resolve it and "act correctly" is through the utilization of the principle of *Alignment*. The initial/apparent paradox of Karma is that one manages to surpass Duality through acting correctly within Dual terms. This "accordance with the Way", as the Tao Te Ching might put it, is the factor that clearly defines a direction for oneself through the multitude of possibilities within the field of Duality and cause and effect. It gives depth and a relief impression to our otherwhise flat field of possible courses of action, thus in a way cutting down on the analytical factor of measuring our surroundings and providing us with a clear, linear correctness of action that feels like it furthers one-pointedness if pursued. This experience, a paradox none the less since it discriminates between correct and incorrect action for one's person while acting in a field of apparently endless cause and effect, is the way to approach the resolution of the karma principle I think. By maintaining and improving our personal Alignment, and keeping our sensitivity high, we can maintain resonance with it in varying degrees depending on our personal situation, skill, experience etc. . The key I think is that we do not "act without intent" but act in accordance and alignment to a higher intent than our current position, thus acting "horizontally" through cause and effect but also being conscious and aligned "vertically", this maneuver giving us the ability to act in an "ascending" motion of transcendance. If one define oneself as the immediate manifestation of one's person alone, I guess it can be called action without intent, however by accepting the potential of one's nature I think the more correct way to acknowledge it is action in accordance with higher intent (rather than only immediate and potentially impulsive intent). Taoism would define it as maintaining Indifference I think. This is due to the fact that the subtlety of the intent one aligns with is so much compared to one's current solidity that in a way it can be termed "without substance, smell or taste".

Kain

[m1thr0s]

Wiki Links: Karma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma) - Samskara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara)

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Wow great description of karma, Kain. Which Buddha is that quote attributed to?

Croquembouche!!!

Samskara huh? I don't remember that term. Sounds like "Scars from living in Samsara" :D

I know (well, for myself) that the key to living correctly in a way that brings one true happiness and satisfaction is knowing the ropes, the laws of the universe. Then, acquiring the courage and knowledge to weave those currents to our advantage...like, spiders....catching moths in the night on a well spun web....that's logic!

[Amur]

Remember that someone referred to karma as a map to Perfection, which I very much agree with myself.

When transcending the state of cause&effect it is possible to do actions that do not 'echo' in the same way as when being in the dualism state of this and that. In programming terms dualism existence is a routine that is dependable on an IF statement. if(this_action) that_action. if(this_term) that_action. In the free state one just acts without doing these checks. The mind knots are unknotted and action is more direct.

I also believe in a mapping where samskara is a life mapping, where specific souls get born into specific families which have their own lessons to learn, synchronizing the born child with that of the family.

[m1thr0s]

this is touched on in the Karma link I posted above: It has to do with Moksha and being able to think and act from within that state:
Actions do not create karma (good or bad) when performed by an individual in the state of Moksha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha) or liberation. Such a person is called "Stithaprajna". The monist, Adi Sankara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Sankara) taught "Akarmaiva Moksha" which means "Moksha can be attained only by doing, not by a process of effort". All actions performed by one in the state of Moksha are called Dharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma).It's not so complicated really...if you are in perfect balance with the universe both internally & externally you are said to exist in a kind of "frictionless" state where your actions are essentially identical with the universe itself. Whole Universe is exempt from the laws of Karma which only really apply to specific points of light. In the Moksha state, no such distinctions are possible. No point of light is technically distinguishable from any other...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

It's not so complicated really...if you are in perfect balance with the universe both internally & externally you are said to exist in a kind of "frictionless" state where your actions are essentially identical with the universe itself. Whole universe is exempt from the laws of Karma which only really apply to specific points of light. In the Moksha state, no such distinctions are possible. No point of light is technically distinguishable from any other...

For myself it all evolves around surrendering(letting go of own insecurity and control) to let the will of the planet and universe play around and live your life. The more hilarious part is to notice rebelling parts trying to go against this flow of Perfection. Another thing with surrendering is that it seems that one lets go of the conscious part to let it mould with the unconscious part. So basically one is only surrendering the self to the Self.

I think that frictionless state is a very good term for the phenomenom.

[Kain]

Wow great description of karma, Kain. Which Buddha is that quote attributed to? Thanks Naomi. I'm not sure...I have heard the quote various times and also read it somewhere a few years ago but I don't remember who it was attributed to. If I find out I'll let you know though.

By the way, I agree with Amur that that was a great description m1thr0s.

Kain

[sword-of-aris-mysticwargr]

I believe that karma is like a mechanism, like a matrix, from wich it seems impossible to escape. It seems that every action produces more karma, and even no action produces karma. There too types of karma, good and bad. Good is the karma we enjoy paying, produced by good acts, and bad is the karma our personality disliked, produced by actions that go against the course of the universe. When we die we have some "unpaid" karma, that's why we have to be born again, to pay it. But when we are born we produce more karma during our lifetime, causing when we die to have some unpaid karma again. This endless circle is called the wheel of samsara. Nonetheless there is a way to be free of it. As given in the wonderful indian epic Bhaghavad Ghitta (i don't know if i spelled it correctly) the only way to stop producing karma is to act by duty. By duty i mean, knowing who you are and what part you are to play in this world. For example in the epic, Arjuna is a warrior, and as a warrior and rightful heir to his lost kingdom, he is supposed to fight for it against the imposters, lawless and trecherous thieves of his throne. He has 2 choices: either to fight or not. If he doesn't fight, he rejects his warrior path and produces bad karma, if he fights because he likes fighting, blood and violence in general, but his cause is right and truly wants to become a good king for his people, he produces good karma. The only way not to produce any karma is to fight because he knows he has to, because in this life he is a warrior, and life gave him the opportunity act as one.