questioning the use of pre-existing symbols and deities

[Abbastet]

Hi, we’re 2 people studying chaos-magick and we would like to hear your opinion on some questions that arose to us in class.

Considering the existing theory on god-forms, would it not be plausible that the combined beliefs of several thousands / millions of people in a certain deity would have actually created this deity? If so, the following questions arise:

- will the entity be self conscious?
- Will it continue to exist when all the believers have stopped believing (Zeus, Odin,…)
- In that respect, would it not be useful to call upon these deities since they are already charged with energy, in stead of calling upon for example Chtullu?


In the same line of thought would it not be useful to use or incorporate pre-existing (and thus charged) symbols (like for example a pentagram) in stead of using only your own energy in a self created sigil? First of all this symbol would already have some power on its own and would be easier accepted by your subconscious (like for example as in Jungs theories on archetypes). So could the symbols, acts and words used in ceremonial magick not also serve another purpose then only focussing your will?

We would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Anibis]

You could look at the more complex symbol sets as 'flow circuits' which contain an energy that continuously flows through certain patterns. Then by setting up an identity through invocation, you tap into that circuit and channel it (through will) into your existence. Almost like a bit torrent, really... Once you embody fully that energy/archetype/god, you also supply it to others who make efforts to tap into it... In the end it is alot easier to tap into what already exists than create something totally new, but then again sometimes you will need to sythesize your own energy patterns as well. Generally the more people supporting the 'egregore' the more powerful it is. To many conflicting, or disparate 'seeders' does tend to contaminate a symbol...
-Ibisis

[MythMath]

The ol' bit torrent analogy...

très moderne... :cool:

[fr.novumorganum]

Hello

First, you are mentioning simply one of the theories of “god-forms”. There are many, some of which overlap, some which are distinct. This should not come as a surprise; just as many theories of consciousness or quantum develop alongside one another, the same is true in Magick.

You may want to look up the term Egregore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore), as this seems to be the concept you are asking about.




If you wish to know if they are self-conscious, I would suggest contacting one and finding out for yourself. I’m not being snide by saying that, but experience of a god form will give you a better answer than any we can provide. However, in my own experience with them, (Egyptian) the god forms are the most developed of the magickal entities. They are master-narratives, mater programs, if you will, and even if they are not self-conscious, in my honest experience and opinion, they are acting out their own program, even if they didn’t create that program themselves.

To clarify, one can whip up an elemental, and make it do something. One cannot just whip up a god-form and order it about. They have their meta-narrative, and they operate according to it. One must either battle the god-form and subsume it, or one must operate according to its program.

Will they loose power? All I can say is that the Egyptian gods (I work mainly with them) are very receptive.

Also, IMHO, psychological theories of these ‘things’ are more rewarding of theoretical inquiry. I think your line of inquiry is assuming a pagan pathos—a certain devotional model, while CM, and certainly KAOS operate with different models.

If you want to know about sacred symbols, read M1thr0s thread on sigils and talismans.

[m1thr0s]

for every god we know about there may be at least 1000 we never heard of and probably never will. You have to ask yourself what makes the difference? Why do some godforms seems to resonate so powerfully with so many people while others amount to a flash in the pan and are gone? It's not a simple answer...it's a powerful mystery that leads you into all kinds of fascinating information about the mind and how it works, about humankind and how it grapples with life and...perhaps more importantly...with the evolution of knowledge itself. The gods are more than they seem and if people should forget them at one point in time, are we not still connected to every other point in time where we have travelled as a species? So your question...while a perfectly good start...has a great deal of foundation work yet to be laid.

As to your sigil question...let me answer your question with a question...why not do both? Why not work within an established framework that already has an proven track record in this world and discover ways to claim it for yourself in unique and marvelous ways? In any case, have fun with this shit or you might as well take up knitting my friend...it's all about power, sure, but it's also all about the sheer thrill and ecstacy of determined creativity itself.

I always strive for the best of all possible worlds in my own talismaholicism...;)

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Hi, we’re 2 people studying chaos-magick and we would like to hear your opinion on some questions that arose to us in class.

Considering the existing theory on god-forms, would it not be plausible that the combined beliefs of several thousands / millions of people in a certain deity would have actually created this deity? If so, the following questions arise:

-will the entity be self conscious?
-Will it continue to exist when all the believers have stopped believing (Zeus, Odin,…)
-In that respect, would it not be useful to call upon these deities since they are already charged with energy, in stead of calling upon for example Chtullu?


In the same line of thought would it not be useful to use or incorporate pre-existing (and thus charged) symbols (like for example a pentagram) in stead of using only your own energy in a self created sigil? First of all this symbol would already have some power on its own and would be easier accepted by your subconscious (like for example as in Jungs theories on archetypes). So could the symbols, acts and words used in ceremonial magick not also serve another purpose then only focussing your will?

We would like to hear your thoughts on this.

The answer is, I don't know. I'm more partial to the macrocosmic intelligence theory rather than the egregore theory. The egregore I acknowledge as a different phenomenon, because I've taken part in several group projects which were successful, while the unique intelligence theory I also acknowledge in the same way as certain sects of Buddhism, where they believe in ascended humans who are called boddhisattva. I also acknowledge the existence of extraplanetary intelligences who achieved the status of boddhisattva before earth. I think it is the phenomenon some people like to call elder gods (as opposed to younger gods, gods, or demigods) This isn't something I read somewhere, it's just my own personal classification, and I do consider myself a chaos magician first and foremost. Though -- it is totally gauche to call yourself that.

This is important to me - I think that even if we 'create' something, it had to exist already, in some form. Chaos theory (I mean the science this time) tells us that there is a complex, almost unfathomable order to things, but that the order is there. So these gods, whether we forget them or not, will continue to exist in some form, and possibly emerge again and again in a different shape - same flavor.