Smallness and humility

[Okazaki Castle]

Men like humility above all other virtues. So a wise man once said to me. Humility, also, is considered a virtue generally.

I think this is because people like to have thier own worth recognised, and praised.

Once you're through learning lessons, what next in this 'evolutionary system'? That is an interesting question to me.

Within this system, wha lessons need to be learned to transcend this system, or attain perfection, or escape from karma's wheel of death and rebirth? That is an interesting question to other people once they begin to wake up to spirituality I find...

As I said, people like humility and most seemto still subscribe to the philosophical dictum of 'All men are equal', or at least some are. Why so, and what makes the Superior, superior?

If one is great, why should one be small? If one is fearless, why should one behave in fearful ways? If one does not compromise, why should one pretend to? Because then one fits in.

Some people do not want to fit in. However, if you don't, you have to consider how that relates to legal system. Those who play by others' rules, play by others' rules. They usually call this 'being sensible' or rationalize that they can do nothing about it, because they are weak. Smallness and humility. Versus Greatness and Arrogance. I think the two, or the four, are reflections and correlates.

So the discussion:

What sort of character is more attractive: one based on smallness and humility or one based on arrogance and greatness?

What sort of character is more fun to live?

What do you understand by arrogance? (most misunderstand it, I'd say. I view it as being a reflection outwards of one's real, proven abilities. Unfounded arrogance is false. To the spartans, the word is 'Kyros'.)

And whatever else you feel like....

Regards,
Oazaki.

[feranaja]

I personally find few things as repulsive as arrogance. Greatness doesn't show itself through asserting superiority over others. Greatness is a small, quiet, humble thing. Arrogant people are such clowns, really. If you are arrogant, you are centred on your ego. I vote for humility, which in no way equates with smallness, for me. Our whole culture confuses arrogance with strength, I truly do not get it.

fera

[Okazaki Castle]

I personally find few things as repulsive as arrogance. Greatness doesn't show itself through asserting superiority over others.

Ah, what if you assert your superiority over the unjust, who appear to be in a much, much stronger position than you to all standard perceptions, and do that asserting to prevent their oppression and abuse of the weak?

Arrogance can be done with style I believe, in a way that it is actually very cool and attractive. The best example of this I'd say is the anime character Hiko Seijuro from the roruni Kenshin series. However, mythologically, the Zeus archetype also displays attractive arrogance I'd say. Jupiter, or Zeus, does, of course, also relate to the symbolism/role of Jutsice andits dispensation. I think that is the key really to true arrogance, which is real, but also attractive.

Humility, when it is like lying, and not who you really are ('oh no, I'm not really that intelligent, just moderately so' for example) is more unattractive, I think.

The strong tend to be arrogant. In an abusive, serving-their-own-interests way. Persecuting those lower dwon the strength hierarchy tha them. This is what maes their arrogance unattractive, I'd say. Also, it is what makes theier arrogance false: they continullay feel the need to assert their own worth, confirming it by their domination of others.

Dominate those who are themselves abusive, and seem stronger or bigger than you. Or those who are simply abusive. Preferably make them abusers and killers of children in nasty, painful ways. That way, you are also furious. It is a cold fury. Your arrogance, it is cool, when you do such things. It is also necessary, as one is free to live one's personality down here If that personality is really real and really tightly cross-referenced to other aspects of your personality, then it allows you to do things, opens gates as it were...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Kain]

What sort of character is more attractive: one based on smallness and humility or one based on arrogance and greatness?

What sort of character is more fun to live?

What do you understand by arrogance? (most misunderstand it, I'd say. I view it as being a reflection outwards of one's real, proven abilities. Unfounded arrogance is false. To the spartans, the word is 'Kyros'.)I think it's important to state that sizes are relative. Due to this factor, greatness and smallness are also relative, and I think depend on our emotional stance towards this relativity of sizes, and of our current position in it. For instance, there is a general social tendency to equate smallness and humility with the "correct" way of conduct that is also "applied" upon our said social conduct to validate it. Such a thing is a mistake I think however, as humility's natural cause, even to people of apparently great attainance, is a realization of the relativity of sizes and of *how much more* lies Above them. This erroneous viewpoint has turned humility upside down, turning it into a modern shell whithin which usually hide the most despicable of baselessly egotistic and (negatively) arrogant personalities you will find. This is especially true for the conduct of Orthodox Christians here in Greece (as I do not know of the situation elsewhere), as their behavior reeks of faked humility, as humility is now the most socially acceptable and prestigious way of behavior there is nowdays...even the simple mention of the values of self-suficciency and self-responsibility, trust in one's inner worth and strength is considered an infidel-like over-eagerness in spiritual matters. So the only thing communicated is never what one accomplishes but only what one receives through the "mercy" of higher faculties...which is an absolute travesty of the original and True concept of Humility if you ask me.

People often say "Syn Athina kai xeira keini" around here, which roughly translates as "act, and divine providence will follow", although the very principle of "acting" has somehow apparently become a forbidden option in spiritual matters.

Having said the following, I also think that it is important to always pursue the higher qualities, as staying on humility alone and denying other stances can be very detrimental and eventually leads us nowhere. Smallness and Greatness must be correctly equalized at any given moment of our ascent, thus allowing us to correctly act based on our particular, and pragmatic, place in the bigger picture. I think 'Kyros' is also a very powerful principle Okazaki, but I wouldn't translate it as arrogance. I see your point about it not being baseless arrogance, but for me it would be something closer to validity, class, and authority.

Kain

[Wezzard]

Only the shy are truly arrogant. I've it on good authority arrogance isn't merely quantitive but also dependent on the qualities of self-absorption. Which is to posit it as self-consciousness to the exclusion of others in varying degree.

A person very adept in mathematics for eg. likely ends up the measuring stick to those of inferior ability with jealousy as the result. The weak then attempt to bring down the strong. The strong either fortify themselves or succomb. The success is insulative by nature; it's what causes the self-consciousness of superiority. To one born of shy, introvertive tendacies this protective insulation effects the perception of arrogance.

Perhaps those born extrovertive manifest nothing but the aggressive push-mongering of the power-mode. Rather defenceless. Spankings help.

Good to see you posting again OC., your words & demeanor inspired.

[feranaja]

Ah, what if you assert your superiority over the unjust, who appear to be in a much, much stronger position than you to all standard perceptions, and do that asserting to prevent their oppression and abuse of the weak?


Absolutely, but you can do that very, very quietly, too. :)



Humility, when it is like lying, and not who you really are ('oh no, I'm not really that intelligent, just moderately so' for example) is more unattractive, I think.


Of course, false modesty isn't a nice thing, it reeks of insincerity - but then, flaunting oneself around as though one is somehow better then everyone isn't attractive either.

In my line of work I am often confronted by people who dont like what I have to say and what my worldview represents, and they will almost always mount an ad hominem attack. I have several choices at that point - swagger around reciting my credentials and so on (arrogance) mumble some self effacing jibberish about how I dont really know that much(lying, placating) or smile enigmatically and let then babble themselves into exposure (Keep talking...keep talking, you know?) One thing I LOVE to do in these situations is just keep asking questions that the idiots will be very unlikely to know how to answer. This way I can stay "humble" and still come out on top. It's a tactic, but a good one.
I just - prefer the latter. One example of many i could use.



The strong tend to be arrogant. In an abusive, serving-their-own-interests way. Persecuting those lower dwon the strength hierarchy tha them. This is what maes their arrogance unattractive, I'd say. Also, it is what makes theier arrogance false: they continullay feel the need to assert their own worth, confirming it by their domination of others.


I odnt know about this Oazaki...I think - if I may be so arrogant as to say so - that I am one fo the strongest individuals around and Im not inclined to arrogance. (Reactivity Ive had to battle with but thats a whole other issue).

I don't persecute or dominate - in fact those are two things I'm seriously opposed to - but I don't suffer fools gladly. I enjoy giving them a hand up towards revealing their own stupidity. Cruelty I have no stomach for and no time for anyone outright vicious.
Personally, I want to stay humble. I enoy a lot of accolades for my work - sometimes embarassingly so - and I feel like I have so far to go yet. I hope I never decide I know it all, I will leave that to the first time dog owners out there who dont want to buy good food and think shock collars are a good training method. Me - I'm on a lifelong learning voyage. ISnt that humility?

Now - if its arrogance to decide that some individuals are beneath my notice, well, lol - ok, maybe I CAN be arrogant. BUt the ones that far down on the ladder - they know who they are too - I just dont allow in my sphere of being on any level.


Just:) musing here...fera

[Kuroyagi]

What sort of character is more attractive: one based on smallness and humility or one based on arrogance and greatness?

I would like to position the pairs of nouns differently. I think that smallness and arrogance on the one hand and greatness and humility on the other fit together well. I agree with you that false humility or bigotry is something bad. Often it is used by bad actors of life who "think while they are doing it". They are like bad singers who can imagine the orchestra in their heads but cant translate it into their single voice. They want to be good but are not honest cause if they were they would openly admit that they aspire for power. Instead they want to be thought of as good and humble but still become powerful nonetheless.

But for me real humility already has power and greatness in it or else it wouldn’t be possible to be humble. Only from a superior position is it possible in the first place to incorporate humility. Cause only one who is above can stoop down, is able to bow down or give the one a hand who is inferior to him. He lowers himself down to the others' level, or (as was said) looks at it from the side of relativity: that means that he will see that though hes superior (greater) than the other in one or many respects, the other has still things to teach him (fields where he is better than him) and so he can afford to be an equal to him. he also can afford this out of love or of liking the other and for fun- he mustnt consider himself better while doing it and if he cant he is "inferiorly skilled" in his ability to be humble.

On the other side: One who is below can’t bow down lower anymore (if he bows down he is simply "normal" cause thats what is required of his position anyway). But he can still stretch himself and reach for the stars: this is in my view the good side of arrogance. For me arrogance has a good and a bad side but humility is tending more to what I consider as a good thing (in my own system of morality). The bad side of arrogance yet AGAIN has a good and a bad side. Its the arrogance of the superior against the inferior.

This "bad" arrogance is fun for the "powerful" themselves and for their peers and bad for those who are losing this contest of will. Cause this is what it basically is. In society and on social events you can feel it and already have, Im sure. If you are a weathy refined jet-setting guy and meet a provincial politician in a bad suit and with greasy hair then you can choose whether you let him feel it or you can choose to be friendly with him (for which he will be eternally thankful cause then he feels as if belonging to the higher league.). The same applies to convincingly pretending to be of such superiority of course. You can think: whats practical for me, whats fun. On this relatively high level it is a form of magic (though many grumpy ones would call it sorcery).


To answer the other question I agree that its most fun to be great and arrogant and especially arrogant. Though sometimes the retaliation of the other parties hurt pride will be spoiling some of the fun.

[Anibis]

If one is great, why should one be small? If one is fearless, why should one behave in fearful ways? If one does not compromise, why should one pretend to? Because then one fits in.


I think this misunderstands the nature of humility. You are confusing it with self-effacement. Humility is what holds your ego* back from 'filling the sky' and plugging all way to further growth. Humility, properly understood is the protective measure of not overestimating yourself foolishly. Holding back itself is a valuable skill.
-Ibisis
*Yes, we all like our egos around here, but they're problematic when they start to choke out the sunlight, know what I mean?

[pyro]

Which is more fun to live would depend on the definition you're using. If arrogance is thinking too highly of oneself,and humility thinking lowly of oneself,then it's better to be neither and instead have a balanced view of yourself. But,humility can also be defined as self honesty,not thinking yourself to be better or higher than you really are.

As for greatness or smallness,greatness seems more fun to me...although I also seem to be lacking it.

So I'd have to say greatness without arrogance or humility,or greatness and humility. Depending on the definition.

My bad if this doesn't contribute to the the conversation,I know that wasn't exactly the question...

[silentjohn]

http://themot.org/gallery/d/46402-1/limit.jpg

[Kain]

I would agree with Ibisis's point here...also, pyro makes a very good approach on the subject.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

Men like humility above all other virtues. So a wise man once said to me. Humility, also, is considered a virtue generally.

I think this is because people like to have thier own worth recognised, and praised.I have absolutely no idea what this statement is supposed to mean. what "men" are these, since I know of very few such men myself. what "wise man" was this, since aside from a very rare handful of sages and mystics, humility is almost universally misapprehended and miscommunicated. what kind of "virtue" is it that wants its "own worth recognized and praised", since what is more typically honored as worthy of respect is a tireless dedication to any great work on its own merits for the intrinsic good it can bring to others...

So I think a broader definition of humility is in order here or we are simply off on another world-domination fantasy mind-fuck campaign.

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

I think 'Kyros' is also a very powerful principle Okazaki, but I wouldn't translate it as arrogance. I see your point about it not being baseless arrogance, but for me it would be something closer to validity, class, and authority.

Hey Kain,

On the relative size thing, I can only really say the following for now:

Extremes. As in Aristotle's golden mean. You can have a balance point between two extremes. This:

*-----------^-----------*

or this:

*---------------------------------------------------^---------------------------------------------------*

Does one sit in the centre, or at one of the extremes? If one sits at an extreme, must one encompass the other extreme also, for the sake of balance? What are null void reflections? Why would the Japanese make Void an element?

And most interestingly to my mind: what if you do both extremes at the same time? I call that Paradox Power, and view it a bit like Tai Chi. Of course, most people don't take that seriously, but that is sort of the point ;) . If you combine two L-turns, you get a T-turn.

Kyros is hard to translate, and arrogance is a polluted concept. Language is so limiting... *sighs* I'd say that another of Kyros characteristics is the personal certainty that you are here to be perfect, and as such are superior to a class of people who are here to indulge their lower natures. It is domintating and quite harsh in that respect. There is more to it, of course. Words fail, but the concept, or state of being, can of course be focused upon third eye and a clear impression thereby attained. That sort of approach taken, everybody begins to speak the same language. Maybe, this is what Babel was about?


Good to see you posting again OC., your words & demeanor inspired.

Thanks Wezzard :) Still considering your position, it is not clear to me yet. In such instances I tend to wait until clarity forms...


Of course, false modesty isn't a nice thing, it reeks of insincerity - but then, flaunting oneself around as though one is somehow better then everyone isn't attractive either.


Hey Lady F,

I personally tend to like what I call 'spirited' girls: a certain 'fuck you' attitude to them, I'll do what I like and care not for society's censures. I'm beautiful, strong and sexual, and will revel in it. And yes, I know you are plainer than me, less free than me, and envious. Do not speak to me, it is not your place. I will however be charming to you, as one would be to a servant, sort of.

It is not rubbing people's inferiority in their face, and indeed when you see quality and power there in potential you encourage it and are kind and helpful to them. But you do not let the mediocre masses drag you down to their level and values, merely because that is normal and more comfortable for most.


In my line of work I am often confronted by people who dont like what I have to say and what my worldview represents, and they will almost always mount an ad hominem attack. I have several choices at that point - swagger around reciting my credentials and so on (arrogance) mumble some self effacing jibberish about how I dont really know that much(lying, placating) or smile enigmatically and let then babble themselves into exposure (Keep talking...keep talking, you know?) One thing I LOVE to do in these situations is just keep asking questions that the idiots will be very unlikely to know how to answer. This way I can stay "humble" and still come out on top. It's a tactic, but a good one.


In RL what I usually do is smile and be nice and charming to people. But sometimes, people need to be crushed. Doing so with words, or more commonly with attitude and feeling-space, saves headbanging. As such, it helps to make me a man of peace, which is useful to me as it is helps with self-image and lets me occupy stuff relating to Gandhi and such like, plus Dalai Lama alignment stuff. My personality and day-to-day actions and character are a function of my overall direction and lifepath choice. That is really why there is 'arrogance' there for me. My lifepath choice was simple: at 23 I decided I was getting old and so thought I'd find a way to attain physical immmortality with eternal youth. Then, following that choice, I needed a balanced world around me. So I decided to conquer it, because the powers-that-be were being stupid and abusive, eg Bush in Iraq. Most people can't even begin to relate to that, and simply discount it out of hand as impossible. That is their position, I wait on it, as part of my strategies. But that is what defined me the most totally, and will continue to do so until the billions, diplomatic passports and worldwide bases (lareg houses and hotels) are in place for me and my friends. Once that is done, then I'll go back to doing Temple of Venus personality mainly, which is much more relaxed and easy-going. Till then, however, I am quite harsh and uncomprising and disdainful of the irresponsible masses who pursued their own comfort and well-being over the general welfare of the world and their fellow man, especially when their governments were being abusive. 1970's revolution and idealism would be a bit similar in terms of motivation there, vis-a-vis the capitalistic mainstream. Except, of course, nobdoy listens to hippies preaching peace and love. That's why I did hippeis there, as in the Spartan 300. People don't mess with the Spartans, they're hardcore. Hence, my character. A matter of functionality, and cross-referenced internal self-consistency.


I odnt know about this Oazaki...I think - if I may be so arrogant as to say so - that I am one fo the strongest individuals around and Im not inclined to arrogance. (Reactivity Ive had to battle with but thats a whole other issue).

I don't persecute or dominate - in fact those are two things I'm seriously opposed to - but I don't suffer fools gladly. I enjoy giving them a hand up towards revealing their own stupidity. Cruelty I have no stomach for and no time for anyone outright vicious.
Personally, I want to stay humble. I enoy a lot of accolades for my work - sometimes embarassingly so - and I feel like I have so far to go yet. I hope I never decide I know it all, I will leave that to the first time dog owners out there who dont want to buy good food and think shock collars are a good training method. Me - I'm on a lifelong learning voyage. ISnt that humility?

Now - if its arrogance to decide that some individuals are beneath my notice, well, lol - ok, maybe I CAN be arrogant. BUt the ones that far down on the ladder - they know who they are too - I just dont allow in my sphere of being on any level.


Nice to view some of that, but I cannot comment there yet much. It relates to my views on God and revolution, which it really would be beyond the public sphere of acceptance to reveal onoce more yet. However, if you remember The Lucifer Experiment thread from the old OF? Timeloops, wheeee.....

Generally, I never did like school... ;) :cool:

Humility is what holds your ego* back from 'filling the sky' and plugging all way to further growth. Humility, properly understood is the protective measure of not overestimating yourself foolishly. Holding back itself is a valuable skill.
-Ibisis
*Yes, we all like our egos around here, but they're problematic when they start to choke out the sunlight, know what I mean?

Yes I do and I agree :) . Our spheres of application though differ, however...

Kuroyagi: I have nothing to say to you. You are perfect. :rofl: Funny how things fit together, no?

I have absolutely no idea what this statement is supposed to mean. what "men" are these, since I know of very few such men myself. what "wise man" was this

Allegedely Fu Xsi as featured in the book by Wu Wei ''A Tale of The I Ching: How the Book of Changes Begun".

I tend to believe what people tell me if I find their other words wise and get the feel of a blanced, wise personality from them.

Of course, I freely admit that I have never paid much attention to humility and, as such, do not consider myself anything approaching an expert on it. I happen to view certain mind and character states as 'polluting' and so so maintain a decent ma-ai from there, out of considerations of personal purity. If you or others wish to redefine how humility is defined, feel free. I will read and learn, thus observing but not having to enter into the experience of that personality trait myself too much...

all the best all,
Oazaki.

[Anibis]

You really have made yourself 'invulnerable', eh? You poor sod...
-Ibisis

[Okazaki Castle]

Tottenkopf from Sky Captain the world of Tomorrow. It was necessary, the machine which does not stop being Time. I considered, and meditated. I did send ultimatums to the world's governments. I would not do this before being a secure position which could not be assailed even if they killed me.

Is this possible, or fiction? Does time work and can it be targgetted, that is what the former question reduces to. Along with what desires you hold, which must be fulfilled, for you to transcend desire in a desire system. That was sort of my logic.

Can I bleed, and be hurt? Yes, still. Emotionally especially, with those I cared for. I lost everything I valued, that left me with nothing to lose, when I arrived there, I attacked. It was a hard path, the hardest. Others don't see that, and only compete with ego, and I am misunderstood. I don't care, as I didn't care that it hurt, as I didn't care who died, as I didn't care when my soul was destroyed (rebuilt it again later), as I didn't care on many, many other things.

Then I layer levels of prettier illusion over that. Chaos is ugly, harsh, nasty and unattractive, to most. But once a focus is set, you ride it. Ninjutsu, perseverance against overwhelming odds, when everybody wants to maintain their old, comfortable reality.

As I said, nobody really takes this sort of stuff seriously. But, if someone did seek to undertake such a thing, what would happen, as a theoretical exercise?

Regards,
Oazaki.

[Anibis]

Let's get this back on track. How should we define Humility, and is it desirable? I know you consider yourself pure chaos, Oazaki, but could you tease out a semi-cogent structure from the depths of your infinite clonflagurativeness, so that we have a go at a conversation where the reference points don't slip away from us every 35 seconds? THe last post made very little sense. Cheers;
-Ibisis
P.S. The changes, and indeed the Tai Hsuan Ching (Which, by the way, as a philosophical text is very conservativve), all have a LOT to say about humility, structurally speaking. Aside from the fact that Hexagram 15 is all about it, We find in many hexagrams that the 5th place (Just below the top) is the place of honor, and the 6th place, is considered 'going too far'. Look at hexagram #1 for What I consider to be a picture perfect illustration of the nature of this conversation... What do you folks think?

[Zaii]

There's a big difference between being great and being arrogant. "Delusion" is also a fun word to throw in the mix. As is "bullshit".

[Kain]

The changes, and indeed the Tai Hsuan Ching (Which, by the way, as a philosophical text is very conservativve), all have a LOT to say about humility, structurally speaking. Aside from the fact that Hexagram 15 is all about it, We find in many hexagrams that the 5th place (Just below the top) is the place of honor, and the 6th place, is considered 'going too far'. Look at hexagram #1 for What I consider to be a picture perfect illustration of the nature of this conversation... What do you folks think?That's a great example Ibisis, I think hexagram #1 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/ic01.htm)is most representative of this.

By the way, concerning Kyros, I think Zaii has made a good point by adding the concept of "Delusion" in the mix, and comparing arrogance with greatness. I'd say that when the Greatness of Kyros is clouded or bolstered by Delusion, that is when Arrogance begins and Greatness ends like hexagram #1 nicely portrays.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

Allegedely Fu Xsi as featured in the book by Wu Wei ''A Tale of The I Ching: How the Book of Changes Begun"....Of course, I freely admit that I have never paid much attention to humility and, as such, do not consider myself anything approaching an expert on it....One of the things to bear in mind when alluding to a historical character like Fu Hsi (also called the Yellow Emperor) is that all available evidence we have at our disposals suggests that he had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the I Ching at all, nor any of the wisdom it chronologues. In all probability he was a cut-throat warlord more responsible for uniting the feudal lords of predynastic China under one roof than anything else. It was the Chinese Sages who actually developed this work, most of whom we will probably never know by name...

But what we do know is that Humility (also Modesty) was intimately linked to the idea of Integrity and has more to do with the ability to think and speak from both sides of an issue so as to maintain a balanced center of gravity in all things pertaining to the expounding of either laws or principles of truth. Humility is perceived by these Sages as a vital checks & balances against self-deception, or "delusion" as Zaii has indicated. It has nothing to do with cow-towing behind anything or anybody. It is the same thing modern science aspires to in the development of scientific truth. Humility is a means of maintaining equilibrium and only that kind of humility which serves this result would be considered true humility in this tradition. It represents a state of mind aware of its limitations and poised in such a way as to minimize them.

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

I want everybody to understand that the constructive topic here is Smallness & Humility...not Oazaki.
If we can't stick to that topic then this whole thing becomes a wasted excercise and will be shut down.

m1thr0s

[Wezzard]

"Arrogance= 1. Overbearing; haughty
Overbearing= 1.Arrogant; domineering 2. Overwhelming
Haughty= 1. Exhibiting great disdain for others; supercilious"
-------------- Funk & Wagnalls

I was interpreting arrogance as reactionary narcissism= "Excessive admiration or fascination w/ oneself", completely contained with self-satisfaction. OC.s' descript of ladies emboldened by their beauty is apt.

(Wzzd.s' dict.)
Arrogance= Negative polarity of Tiphareth; narcissism. 2. Independent vice
Domineering= Power-Mode Mars thru Venus in being aggressive=relationships. 2. Interactive vice.

"Humility= Free from pride or vanity; modest. 2. Lowly in station, condition,etc.; unpretentious. 3. Servile; fawning 4. Respectful. "

Little wonder the roars of confused displeasure, thems both virtues & vices !

[Kain]

Humility is a means of maintaining equilibrium and only that kind of humility which serves this result would be considered true humility in this tradition. It represents a state of mind aware of its limitations and poised in such a way as to minimize them.Wonderful summation, thank you for that m1thr0s.

Kain

[Zaii]

Humility is a very funny subject because generally the people that talk about it have no real conception of what it is. The people actually out in the world bearing down with their heads up and their mouths shut have very little need, time, or use to speak at length about a trait that to them is inherent and common sense given their life experiences.

To me humility equals keeping your lips pressed, opening your eyes, pushing forward, and getting out of your own way. Even to discuss it too much bears the concept itself insult.

[m1thr0s]

yeah...I agree with that.

the reason it has been discussed from the Tao Teh Ching on down seems mostly to do with the need to counteract a lot of misconceptions that seem to creep into this particular principle. Humility is one of those things that has been routinely co-opted by various ruling classes looking to promote more of a lambs-to-the-slaughter version that plays into their own vested interests if they can manage to make it seem virtuous, prudent, even wise to buy into this kind of crap...

So it gets discussed because it is a pivotal strength that should be common sense yet somehow keeps getting diverted into something it never was...

m1thr0s

[Kain]

yeah...I agree with that.

the reason it has been discussed from the Tao Teh Ching on down seems mostly to do with the need to counteract a lot of misconceptions that seem to creep into this particular principle. Humility is one of those things that has been routinely co-opted by various ruling classes looking to promote more of a lambs-to-the-slaughter version that plays into their own vested interests if they can manage to make it seem virtuous, prudent, even wise to buy into this kind of crap...

So it gets discussed because it is a pivotal strength that should be common sense yet somehow keeps getting diverted into something it never was...Yeah, pretty much...I think it in fact is one of the traits that are especially vulnerable to such corruption, and have been thus corrupted for furthering a minority's interests time and again. So I agree that that is probably one of the most important reasons for the discussion of it's characteristics, especially through the Tao Teh Ching.

Kain

[Naomi]

So the discussion:

What sort of character is more attractive: one based on smallness and humility or one based on arrogance and greatness?

What sort of character is more fun to live?

What do you understand by arrogance? (most misunderstand it, I'd say. I view it as being a reflection outwards of one's real, proven abilities. Unfounded arrogance is false. To the spartans, the word is 'Kyros'.)

And whatever else you feel like....

Regards,
Oazaki.

Well I looked it up in my dictionary to be sure. (New American Webster) The definition is "aggressive haughtiness" haughtiness is defined as "disdainful pride". So being arrogant is being aggressive, disdainful and proud. I suppose there is a right and a wrong place for all of those.

Both are attractive, or have the potential to be. Arrogance is a little different than ordinary haughtiness, however, and as such you usually see it in movies or on tv as someone just wronging the 'little guy' - someone trying to do the right thing but caught in the wrong place at the wrong time...or outright prejudice against something that cannot be helped. Arrogance can be placed well, to elicit approval from the audience, for example, from a character in a position of power deriding evil-doers in the act of upholding the small and humble, or a cause the viewer agrees with. Or perhaps the figure hints that you may gain their approval.

I remember seeing these traits in almost every good character I can think of, as well as many bad ones. Not often, but sometimes, the bad ones had the power to back it up. I can only think of one instance where the good guy suffered for it: Spiderman.

Both can be fun, I suppose, but only if you are small and humble to those who are truly your betters, and only if you are arrogant about abilities you truly have.

They are tools, I have used both to my favor. The appearance of humility serves me best in the presence of those with false pride or with an inferiority complex, usually so I do not scare them off or if I don't want to be harassed. The appearance of arrogance, or rather, not arrogance, but power and pride serves me best when I am in the presence of those who only respect power, or when I want to attract people who are useful.

I find it most fun to just be who I am. I think that many beings like to be complimented and admired for their own contributions to the world.
We are all humble in the grand scheme of things. The definition of humble would mean you would have to be as big as a galaxy to not be humble in every sense. (yes I am using my dictionary again) Humble was derived from the latin word humus meaning earth.

There is a place for both humble things and grand things, for cosmic dirt and the shining stars that it creates. I really couldn't say I appreciate the small cuteness of a tiny mouse any more or or less than I appreciate the grand and noble visage of the terrible lion. Could you?

[Naomi]

Humility is a very funny subject because generally the people that talk about it have no real conception of what it is. The people actually out in the world bearing down with their heads up and their mouths shut have very little need, time, or use to speak at length about a trait that to them is inherent and common sense given their life experiences.

To me humility equals keeping your lips pressed, opening your eyes, pushing forward, and getting out of your own way. Even to discuss it too much bears the concept itself insult.


Hmm that's interesting, because to me, keeping the dialogue and communication working is what is important, and it requires humility in the face of the very real problems the world is facing, rather than the arrogance that everything belongs to man and a god will solve all of the problems.

I guess that would mean it's not so much how much you say but what you say.

I actually thought of Siddhartha and how his religion of Buddhism seems to really promote humility but Siddhartha himself wasn't really very humble, he was just really driven to find enlightenment. I mean, he did leave his wife and kids behind.

You seem to be talking more about endurance or determination than humility....though the two tend to go hand in hand when you look at most beasts of burden, for an example...

[Anibis]

Yeah, it seems we don't really have a clear agreement on definitions... I suppose that's okay, though... Words are the masks of energies... if you are truly marshalling a force, say humility, or power (which often go together), then the words are less important, and yet, since such 'masks' are often signposts top people seeking the energies themselves, it is important to have a way to tell when the sign or mask really does point to the appropriate, 'True' energy, or when it is a ruse... Its a bit like the Labyrinth with shifting walls and such... On the level of semantics, at any rate... Arrogance and righteousness are two words which in recent centuries have become entangled in one another... the thought of 'righteousness' evokes for us intolerance, often, since it is so contaminated with arrogance. Maybe separating these two is a good idea. What if we yoked 'Righteous' to a combination of strength, justice and humility, and considered arrogance as something more like 'weakness wearing the mask of power'... Ever consider how this whole forums is like a group meditation?
-Ibisis

[Naomi]

The semantics of righteousness bother me, as it seems to be derived from right and left. As a Satanist, you can imagine I have some problem with indicating the right hand is the best place to be, although I don't really apply any true value to left and right hand path delineations.

Righteousness means virtuous...and truly that is what power should be used for, by those with virtuous qualities, strength, bravery and respect for life: the application of the knight's code.

I use justice as my preferred word format for so called 'right' thinking. It calls to mind the scales of Ma'at which has a left and a right hand side, as well as the blindfolded lady....

Interesting how we can have such an indepth discussion about these two words.


Ibisis, yes I have considered the group meditation thing. Forums can also be useful as covens, bringing together people of great power and ability to effect change in the world through guerilla magic. It rarely works cohesively for more than a few months though, but I think as we jumpstart the age of sourcery with education and understanding this will change.

[Anibis]

Geurilla magick... Aint that what Dianne Fossey was doing?... oh, wait ;) Yeah, I much perfer Justice over righteousness... I suspect that that term is fairly done for... Some how I like the word 'rightfullness' alot better... THe beautiful thing about Maat, in a way is that what it removes in terms of your ability to deploy force, it tends to correct for... I'd much rather be modestly powerful in a situation in which my environemet responds to me so that I can grow and evolve and learn from my mistakes, than supremely powerful and invulnerable in a world that has nothing to say to me... I guess the latter is the vibe that 'righteousness', has, isn't it? Ma'at creates a space for other beings than oneself... I find Love there...
-Ibisis

[Anibis]

M1thr0s, in the context of this discussion, I'd be interested to hear some of your thought on the clearly Confucian content of the THC... THe more I get into it, the more I realize how conservative it is, and in particular how much emphasis it places on conformity, ritual deference, virtue, and such... It's sort of refreshing to me in a way... I guess following from some thoughts I've expressed in another thread, to what extent is the symbolic overlay 'just social baggage', and to what degree it is more like 'meat on the mathematical bones', so to speak?... I am getting a lot more from the math as a result of contemplating the poetry, is what I am saying... How do you balance the two?
-Ib

[m1thr0s]

I think that one of the problems we are faced with either with the I Ching or the Tai Hsuan Ching is that both of these great mathematical systems were packaged up as "oracles", which did, in fact, insure their survival down through the ages. The downside is that they are both horribly moralistic at the level of their "judgments". The very meaning of things was placed in social settings almost universally and since China has always been a very reclusive nation generally, we don't really get a particularly metropolitan view of society on a more global scale.

In Abrahadabra we are attempting to extrapolate the actual physics to help us gain a foothold on stars and their elemental & anatomical possibilities. So I think the way I deal with this is mainly a matter of recognizing the various contexts that this underscoring physics has been applied to in the past and is also applicable to in the present. I try to never confuse these contexts as much as humanly possible. I do not try to assert that the Chinese Sages had any views on Abrahadabra at all for instance, but a physics is a physics and if the shoe just happens to be a perfect fit, I am inclined to use it... If I could avoid using it I probably would out of some sort of respect for the past I suppose, but there are certain issues that require the special capabilities of these ancient mathematical systems. In a case like that I will almost always use whatever tool fits the task at hand but I am very aware that the very same tool applied to two starkly different tasks are not strictly speaking the exact same thing. They parallel each other at junctions and that's about as good as it gets.

Not quite sure if that's what you are asking though...my response feels just a little more obvious than your question...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

To me humility equals keeping your lips pressed, opening your eyes, pushing forward, and getting out of your own way. Even to discuss it too much bears the concept itself insult.

I doubt humility itself will be insulted from it :)

To me humility means to really look at others and see them for what they truly are. With this I mean that instead of judging or going through a zillion if-loops/rules inside, one opens up and listens to what comes in.

Must say that I'm having quite difficulty with humility, as I have no idea yet what it is really. It feels very good, calming and soothing for my soul. It seems to me that humility is a divine attribute which there can't be enough of. To me humility and mercy is somehow related.

For some reason I feel like many magickians have real trouble with humility :laugh:

Another aspect is that came up earlier, is that often people who are insecure need to fill this gap of security with something that projects outward. In this sense, true strength gives that security and makes one become oneself, as one is not fearful about anything, there is no need to drive a show to fit it, one can just be oneself.

[Anibis]

Humility, the more I think about it has some major ties with Sanity, Clarity, and Sobriety...
-Ibisis

[fr.novumorganum]

interesting that you mention that Ib. in classic republican thought, humilty and sober thought were the central virtues for any public action or role.

[Okazaki Castle]

Humility, the more I think about it has some major ties with Sanity, Clarity, and Sobriety...
-Ibisis

Ah, that must be why I do hexagram 15 in a weird way, cuz I like to be Crazy, Inscrutable and Stoned....

Specifically, I offer the following uncoventional interpretation of aplication thereof:

15. Ch'ien / Modesty
-- --
-- -- above K'un The Receptive, Earth
-- --
-----
-- -- below K^en Keeping Still, Mountain
-- --

Keeping still under the Earth. For example, find a mountain and meditate in a cave. Lots of Earth above you there, and you stay very still. Keep doing this till you've run thru all the annoying karma pertaining to such things in this, The Great World Teacher's (what the Sirians like to call themselves) Special School System.

Regards,
OC.

[Anibis]

Sobriety has a subtler connotation I think just refering to clarity and equipoise of thought, Undistorted by contaminants... maybe one can do that while ingesting substances... I'm not sure...
-Anibis

[pyro]

This may have already been said, but I find that alot of the time when people think of humbleness or humility, they get the impression of "submissive". Again I suppose it depends on your definitions.