Freedom

[Okazaki Castle]

Inspired by another thread which was getting off topic, I thought I'd start this one. It is for the discussion of the nature of Freedom: what it means to be free, what freedom itself means, how one lives as a Free Man (or Free Woman) and so on.

I consider myself something of an expert on Freedom, rightly so, I believe. I also consider most people to be slavish in mentality, weak, accepting of their shackles and willing to bend the knee to restrictions imposed on them by those they view as somehow more powerful than themselves or able to do them harm in some way. A visiting Spartan was once shown by an Athenian the glories of their classical state, their architecture, philosophy, culture, big complex systems of commerce and theatre and politics. What do you have in Sparta to compare he asked, what can you Spartans do which matches up to all this? 'We know how to be free', was the reply.

Likewise nowadays, the pygmies view themselves as free, not seeing thier own limitations, and seek to despise the very way of life and essence of the Free Man. Their own limitations they view as a necessary form of social morality and obligation, not even considering that Free Men need not such things amongst them, for they are by nature ethically perfect everytime.

Slaves are offended by freedom and seek to persecute it, and don't like it, and consistently seek to find the mote in thier brother's eye to avoid seeing the forest in their own being. Little do they know, of course, that Freedom comes at a price, a price upon entry, and no motes are there to be found, or indeed anything else petty. However, mirrors, sometimes there are there, and people get confused by such things, not liking the ugliness of their own reflection and so seeking to blame its provenance elsewhere, ie on the mirror, not realising they look at their own reflection.

I think freedom comes from strength. I think weak people find it offensive. I think freedom is realised and expressed through courage. I think such topics could be debated.

Of course, any power the weak man seems to have over the Free Man is illusory. The Free know this, the weak fail to believe it, and assert their limitations as All-Powerful. How does that work then?

What does it mean to be Free, in practice ie not just in your head?

Who here considers themselves free? How do you jutsify and support your claim in this? Or is it only a philosophical sort of freedom you lay claim, still bending the knee in Real Life, in practice... and so talking from theory more than reality, in some way at least?

Let us see if this thread continues, and if so in which way...

regards all,
Oazaki.

[Naomi]

I do not fear death and I would kill for my right to live. I respect the strong and know how to nurture the potential strengths in allies (like children, etc.) Even a mouse is mighty in its own way...you have to be very brave to be that small and steal grain. So it is not a matter of brute strength but a matter of bravery. Especially bravery in the face of overpowering tyranny or death.

Loyalty too, which takes great strength and the benefits are not easily seen. Especially loyalty in the face of finding fault in that which you are loyal to..country or friend, to help them through it.

On ethics....

No one would disagree that nature is unethical, but it is red in tooth and claw...

On cuts:

To be loyal and love your friends enough to cut them (ie, tell them they are wrong) when they need it, aka tough love:compassion lol XD

To be loyal your friends even if they have cut you, and instead of blaming your faults on them...change...

Wikipedia defines Freedom as the ability to act without restraint. So perhaps freedom is found in choosing our own restraints and being able to also discard them at any time. Ethics.

[Sibylle]

What does it mean to be Free, in practice ie not just in your head?

I agree with the points you've made, and it's a good topic. The most complete freedom we have is mental. Claiming and living one's freedom is a great challenge, and naturally is done on an individual basis because it depends on one's personal Law(s). I think for people to whom freedom is very meaningful, it not only takes strength to claim it, it is crucial in order to stay true to oneself. We live in a society that gives lip-service to freedom, but what is really meant is it allows us the freedom to comply with "have-tos". A person with the seed of freedom within soon learns that he does not have to do anything, save what he himself makes compulsory.

[m1thr0s]

What does it mean to be Free, in practice ie not just in your head?grow a bigger head...maybe about the size of the universe should do it...oblivion itself if you're really ambitious...:cool:

If you think that sounds crazy, check this shit out...I may have actually pinpointed the technology that can do it!

Time will tell...indications are solid...no need to overstate a work in progress...

It's probably pretty obvious that my namesake (Mithras) has been my general standard of Freedom for quite awhile now. I'm into cosmic safecracking...it just makes sense to me. Too many godamm boxes to suit me. Mithras was the first human being to crack the vault of universe itself and even the gods could not fathom his audacity, his strength or his cunning...

I can hang with this...smells like Freedom to me...

as for "slaves" et al...I really think too much fuss is made of this. We are all of us *slaves* to the chains that bind us, but that's not who and what we really are. So you know...aknowledge the damn chains and seek always to shatter them to tiny little bits and pieces...each link following the last. It's all a process is what I mean to say. Only those who pretend to have accomplished greater Freedom than they have, have lost any real hope of securing it.

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

The most complete freedom we have is mental... claim it, it is crucial in order to stay true to oneself... A person with the seed of freedom within soon learns that he does not have to do anything, save what he himself makes compulsory.
Brilliant post Sybille.

Sometimes it is thought that freedom is having the power to do anything; thinking it is being able to override other people's freedoms and doing whatever you like. I think the trap there is hidden because it lies in the reactions of other people to those actions.

[Okazaki Castle]

The most complete freedom we have is mental.


I get this, but I think the mental is the interface, and that really it proceeds from Spirit - which cannot be restricted by Man, ie other men eg with their stupid laws - but must needs be grounded in and express through physicality, ie your material body and life. But the perception and understanding of this is important and what enables you to use it in practice.


A person with the seed of freedom within soon learns that he does not have to do anything, save what he himself makes compulsory.

This is true I think and a very high level of discipline. Those restrictions we voluntarily place on ourselves (wherever possible given the context and expression of other obligations / responsibilities and, yes, aesthetic tastes also) are what constitute the field of Ethics I think...

all the best Sibylle, and thanks for the insights! First time we've interacted I think... :)
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

grow a bigger head...maybe about the size of the universe should do it...oblivion itself if you're really ambitious...:cool:


What do you mean by oblivion there please? Currently I understand it as Original Khaos, which destroys your very essence and soul and all you have inside your material form. Then you have to recombine from there later. Is this about on target or do you mean something else by the term?


If you think that sounds crazy, check this shit out...I may have actually pinpointed the technology that can do it!


Yes, I know, why do you think I like you so much? Because of your cool character or cuz you brought thru into system lots of useful tools for this? Both the same thing, mebbe...


It's probably pretty obvious that my namesake (Mithras) has been my general standard of Freedom for quite awhile now. I'm into cosmic safecracking...it just makes sense to me. Too many godamm boxes to suit me. Mithras was the first human being to crack the vault of universe itself and even the gods could not fathom his audacity, his strength or his cunning...


Yeah, I checked out your mythology whilst trying to figure out where you were coming from as your shield system was just too damn dangerous for me to want to try piercing into it too much (and that's saying soemthing, as I rarely give a damn about any such 'cuts'...) I like the audacity thing especially. I think it's similar to what I call 'arrogance'. It's kinda similar to a Spartan or Samurai outlook on things. Like, if a modern human was to see an alien who was hostile he'd prbbly run or squel or try to get a lot of his friends/associated together with big guns and technology to try to hide behind. Whereas Spartans and Samurai, they'd prbbly think of a way to attack the thing on the spot... and might well succeed too!


I can hang with this...smells like Freedom to me...


Cool, I am glad that this is so :)


as for "slaves" et al...I really think too much fuss is made of this. We are all of us *slaves* to the chains that bind us, but that's not who and what we really are. So you know...aknowledge the damn chains and seek always to shatter them to tiny little bits and pieces...each link following the last. It's all a process is what I mean to say. Only those who pretend to have accomplished greater Freedom than they have, have lost any real hope of securing it.


Consider: if you are not afraid of losing everything you have and are, what chains can hold you, what chains do you have, in truth? As Bismarck once said: "Be careful of the man who has nothing to lose." What of social and family obligations? This is the tricky bit, and where sacrifices had to be made before, perhaps... unless another way forward was/is possible? ~(eg bind it in your past)

A work in progress? If you are beyond time, as you are at some level of your being, have you not, at some level of operation, already completed what you set out to do? Well then, would it not just be a question of simply accessing that level of your essence which is at that beyond-time sphere of operation and asking him/it for the answers which you came up with in the first place and are going to figure out later in linear time as an incarnated form?

Leastways, that's sort of how I did it with my stuff and is why I don't understand a tenth of what I actually do or how it comes about... Not very rational, but it can work, and it is easier and less work/effort... Just a suggestion though, go about it as you like, of course...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

Even a mouse is mighty in its own way...you have to be very brave to be that small and steal grain. So it is not a matter of brute strength but a matter of bravery.

OK, this helps me to understand the Dutch brigade, espec Artificer etc... that's kinda how they viewed themselves I think... and they did bring some very useful things into system for me... At the time I, personally (as opposed to Adam form I was moving thru also, simultaneously) was just pissed that they'd stolen some of my materia... collected four of those particles when in their isolation chamber... made a big difference... still missing around six I think... still have to track those... But, I guess, I can see that perspective now... leads me to say also on this topic: The weaker should know their place. Mice, cats hunt them, clear? Dogs, they can hunt cats and are bigger than them, but careful, cuz maybe the cat's a tiger or black panther sorta thing...




Sometimes it is thought that freedom is having the power to do anything; thinking it is being able to override other people's freedoms and doing whatever you like. I think the trap there is hidden because it lies in the reactions of other people to those actions.

This 'reaction of others' kinda hits the nail on the head there I think Ricci: that's where the real crux of one's freedom being limited enters into, for example when there are others who are bigger and stronger than you - or who somehow think they are bigger and stronger than you - take it into their heads to try and limit you. That's really what the whole fight for freedom is about, once you've completed the sorting out your own demons kinda thing. Why can't we all live in peace and harmony some say? Cuz we can't, really, not without hierarchy of some sort. Otherwise others always try to grasp for, or assert, their own Dominion. This is really only a problem for me when those 'others' are what I term 'peasants', or 'slaves'. That's most of modern society and legal system then...

On that topic, does anybody else have any ideas on how to ensure the peasants know their f*cking place - or at least don't try to impose their warped, twisted, abusive and stupid values and limitations on the rest of us? I don't put my solutions up front here, cuz I'm being cautious and diplomatic still, for a while... (though I am going to Sicily mid-month, on holiday, and who knows how that might turn out, mebbe nothing...)

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Sibylle]

Brilliant post Sybille.

Sometimes it is thought that freedom is having the power to do anything; thinking it is being able to override other people's freedoms and doing whatever you like. I think the trap there is hidden because it lies in the reactions of other people to those actions.

Overriding the freedoms of others or seeking to dominate them is indeed a trap and a flawed way to go about things. It's the opposite of living independent of the good opinion of others, which I think is what freedom and autonomy are about.

I get this, but I think the mental is the interface, and that really it proceeds from Spirit - which cannot be restricted by Man, ie other men eg with their stupid laws - but must needs be grounded in and express through physicality, ie your material body and life. But the perception and understanding of this is important and what enables you to use it in practice.

I agree. Mental, psychological and spiritual freedoms are greater (unlimited, really), because it is the material and cultural/societal realm that seeks to restrict and define us. This is the truth that makes it clear which is of the higher order, and to discover how to manipulate the lesser with ease is a difficult and worthy goal. The stubborn material obstacles encountered by even the greatest occultists and adepts implies to me that there is something being missed. I get the idea that whatever this secret is, it is probably not really hidden - yet invisible.

First time we've interacted I think

And a good topic for interaction :)

[m1thr0s]

Currently I understand it as Original Khaos, which destroys your very essence and soul and all you have inside your material form. Then you have to recombine from there later. Is this about on target or do you mean something else by the term?people say such negative things about mom...she's not so bad...when you get to know her...

Yes, I know, why do you think I like you so much? Because of your cool character or cuz you brought thru into system lots of useful tools for this?being liked is so important to me...it's right up there with getting a root canal...

A work in progress? If you are beyond time, as you are at some level of your being, have you not, at some level of operation, already completed what you set out to do?oh sure...in several thousand parallel universes out of several gazillion possibilities. the exact odds on this one bitty little string are simply too vast to guesstimate...

It may be that I never lost a fight...then again...I might lose one every now and then...I can't remember for sure...best not to get too cocky...

and then there's the spies...dullards as they are...still...good to keep them thinking you're stark raving bananas...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

being liked is so important to me...it's right up there with getting a root canal...
Yes, I know, why do you think I like your periodontist so much...?

[m1thr0s]

huh???...rofl...

I think I've been outsarcasticated...lol...

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

And a good topic for interaction :)

Indeed.

Though the topic title is not an excuse for the last two posters to go off topic ;)

Interesting angle on how we perceive freedom was told to me last night by a friend who said that he had been looking for a place to ritual and found that freedom in the middle of a fairly busy but large park. He stood right in the middle of an open space and says that because he was so obviously in plain sight, hardly anyone took notice of him - I presume they thought he was just exercising.

Not sure if I would have the freedom to do that myself though.

[Okazaki Castle]

oh sure...in several thousand parallel universes out of several gazillion possibilities. the exact odds on this one bitty little string are simply too vast to guesstimate...


Tracking. Reference Predator Race, Archetype perspective if you like, they are good at it.

On Target for Freedom as if ABRAHADABRA methodology pertains to Freedom and is mechanism for it, is of interest to Freedom to get its full working set in conscious place.

Impossible does not exist, it is a matter of self-discipline and nastiness (sic).

Original Khaos I like, but wanted to see if we were talking about same thing. So often we seem to be miscommunicating and crossing subjects last year or four... Still not sure what part of Khaos you refereth to... for later discussion, perhaps.

Sibylle, agreed, good topic for it :) .

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

Meanwhile on normality...


Interesting angle on how we perceive freedom was told to me last night by a friend who said that he had been looking for a place to ritual and found that freedom in the middle of a fairly busy but large park. He stood right in the middle of an open space and says that because he was so obviously in plain sight, hardly anyone took notice of him - I presume they thought he was just exercising.


Exactly! Do things in public and people will not interfere really. They might think you're a bit weird... but that's usually covered by Tai Chi, theatre practice, or Secret Agent talking into an earpiece. People like to come up with their own explanations as to why everything is normal. Be sure to dress appropriately though, as they make their mind up on the basis of clothes a lot, rich enough (which doesn't actually require that much money to project that image) generally works best...

The Freedom to do what we want in public. Still a ways to go there I think... Especially when one's religions are Temple of Venus (sex and orgies and stuff) and Temple of Dionysus (Drugs, and wild, um, and so on...{still being diplomatic} )

I'd say you're ready for it Ricci, if you like, and in a gentle way to start with. And after all, in London, Hyde Park is about the only stretch of nature around that's open-air enough... Natural is always more powerful and better as a workspace I find...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Radiant Star]

... in London, Hyde Park is about the only stretch of nature around that's open-air enough... Natural is always more powerful and better as a workspace I find...
There are actually several other parks where groups and individuals I know do outside rituals quite freely, though I suppose people in a circle would be appearing to be watching a talk or similar, not so obvious in some ways as the lone person practising. Even more a case for being free in plain sight it would seem.

[Naomi]

people say such negative things about mom...she's not so bad...when you get to know her...

being liked is so important to me...it's right up there with getting a root canal...


:::digs claws into M1thr0s's shoulders:::

Ooh I like you too!!!

Hey I think Freedom is also not wanting, desiring anything, like the buddhists say. Because when we want support of our friends, ie, being liked, we are not truly free. For instance, a free man, such as a Spartan, would say they would rather die than submit to trying to do base things to fit in, ie, kneeling, etc, or dimming the shine. Of course it is necessary to turn down the volume a bit if we wish to convey something to say, students...but we find it annoying.

So on the mythology bit, yeah did you know pirates worshipped mithras? I did not know that until yesterday (I been lurking). What with all of the pirate craze sweeping the world of fashion that has to mean something, being as though they were free in extremis.

[nK.CCC]

You got free will to kill someone, but u dont do it cuz u know that there will be consequence's, for better or worse, will is about making decisions, and without decisions there is no consequence's, so true FREE WILL is when you make a decision WITHOUT consequence's, or if no change happens when making a decision from what it normally was.

I dont know if Im being retarded or not, but everything is worth speculating about right ? :D

[m1thr0s]

You got free will to kill someone, but u dont do it cuz u know that there will be consequence's, for better or worse, will is about making decisions, and without decisions there is no consequence's, so true FREE WILL is when you make a decision WITHOUT consequence's, or if no change happens when making a decision from what it normally was. A lot of this has to do with living is a state of *Moksha*, according to the tantrics. We've talked about this before in other threads. There's this whole idea that if you are existing in state of perfect equilibrium with the universe, you could kill *a thousand buddhas* and exact not a penny of negative karma for having done this. In that state of consciousness your mind has melded with the universe itself, so really it was the universe that did the killing anyway...you just happened to be there to channel the happy news...

It's a very complex idea in some ways but really very simple in others...all a question of balance mainly. So yeah, I think there is merit to the notion that "free will" defines a condition whereby one's actions have somehow become liberated from the yoke of "consequences"...

I anticipate the so-called "godman" predicted by many philosophies would be endowed with this kind of ability...so he could technically take out the whole damn world if he/she saw fit to do so without disturbing the wheel of karma at all... Such a being is essentially a force of nature itself...you don't drag hurricanes into fucking traffic court...

it's really pretty damn exciting to think that such a potential might possibly exist I think...getting there, on the flip-side, is a just a wee bit complicated...you pretty much have to die to do it...and be reborn from the ashes...

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

It a question of degree, I think... freedom operates in different fields... at some points, it is wise to retreat from an impossible battle and re-group elswhere. It fluctuates, too. Who here truely claims to have an unwavering total freedom in all fields of their experience? Even the fact that we have bodies is a sort of limitation... In some ways limitation is precisely the invitation which evokes our freedom, causing us to invent ways to be free when otherwise, if we were perfectly satisfied, we would not even attempt. I think the freeman/slave dichotomy is too simple, really... sometime our energy is totally dynamic, sometimes it is forced to react to forces around us... it's how we maintain the total system of action and response which determines how we are, I think... O, you bring up family... that IS the tricky part... for some less so, but at least for me... I actually respect my family... it's old, been doing funky eccentric stuff for generations, and is tightly knit... The individualistic sense of freedom which requires me to jettison concern for them (and others) is not in my opinion true freedom (Nor do I think that that is what you are saying). At the same time I do need to be able to consider them, and their freedom, and not blindly react to their needs all the time, should they become tyrranical in some way... I need to be aware of them, and yet have the courage to choose my own way... Negotiations... perpetual negotiations... It all blends into non-duality, in which Freedom and Slavery aren't really THAT different. If slavery is simply being forcibly conditioned, and freedom is showing undaunted courage and will to overcome said conditioning, is not the coupling of the two qualities precisely what enables us to be individuals, to be evolving forms, to have finity and infinity, the circle and the point operating silmultaneously? Spiritual ambidexterity, I'd call it... Left hand right hand path coordinations... so to speak... Neat topic. Difficult too... 'Freedom' so easily lends itself to propaganda and rhetoric...
-Anibis

[Anibis]

Had some thoughts to add to this... It seems to me that *Absolute Freedom* would render one's actions as meaningless as *Absolute Restriction*... One is infinite expansion, while the other is infinite contraction. What appeals to me is the establishing of a rythmic pulse which plays the two modes off one another to create growing systems of organic complexity...

True freedom is the capacity to act 'unconditioned' (though a chicken/egg thing comes up here), however as soon as one acts, one must maintain the consistency of that act in order for it to bear fruit. Thus freedom invokes necessity. Necessity then conditions and limits the free action, developing it as if it were in a womb. At this point it is possible to rupture necessity through violence, but this then causes the integrity of the freedom which elicited it to break... the initial will then hemmorages out and is lost... alternatively, the freedom can 'map itself onto the contours of necessity', like they were making love... then, as necessity restricts and constrains the flows of freedom, freedom evolves, develops and overflows those conditionings, opening up new freedoms within the body of restriction itself. When the two disengage, the creativity ceases.

So for me, at least, the way to handle freedom is not to pursue it, but to cultivate it, as if it were growing in the fertile earth of our limits, faults and restrictions... it then establishes circuits, loops, and rosettes of integrated organic interaction... I think the confucian concept of self cultivation has alot on the go here... to be free also means not only the power to overcome, but the power to defer, and to hold back... Strength can be weak, and weakness can be strong...

The words dance around the experience. Is it just philosophy, or something lived and experienced? Each must answer that indeed.

-Anibis

[MythMath]

You jugglers, and your sense of balance, and your philosophies... :rolleyes:

{Good stuff, mate}

[Okazaki Castle]

I anticipate the so-called "godman" predicted by many philosophies would be endowed with this kind of ability...so he could technically take out the whole damn world if he/she saw fit to do so without disturbing the wheel of karma at all... Such a being is essentially a force of nature itself...you don't drag hurricanes into fucking traffic court...


That's sort of the thing: the force which backs up the position. From their perspective, is it really worth making a big deal of a minor infraction (in terms of how they themselves have set up their systems)? It's a grey area though, ambiguous, unwritten. When does law enforcement look the other way because it is in their own interest to do so? And how far can this be pushed?

For example, tax returns? That is the sort of thing which one would have to be able to disregard with impunity to even begin to have a freedom from the constraints of the system in which we currently find ourselves. Or is choosing to obey the laws around us because it's not worth fighting over and mroe conducive to harmony to do so more like freedom than this?

I like to add another dimension to such processes, namely due legal process. For example, in most countries (including, in fact especially) the USA, taxation of personal income is actually illegal on the basis of their own legal codices, when you dig into them. In the USA it's actually unconstitutional. There's a few books as to precisely why its unconstutional, but you don't need to go there really if you know that is. Personally I always like the 'equality of prosecution' in the eyes of the law thing. For me, that works very well with MI6's recorded history of involvement in the movement of narcotics worldwide. That sort of thing only works if you have names examples of individuals who are rich and unprosecuted to play with there. But, as with taxation, there is plenty of public information relatively easily available on such matters. Believe it or not. (and this one is an easy one to research).

So I think that's another aspect of the practical application of freedom. It also helps to avoid conflict and make that grey area a whole lot bigger for you. Then about the only problem you've got left in your day-to-day dealings is, either, trusting legal system and personnel not to harrass you (eg the speed camera flashed you jumping that red light... but will it really not end up with a ticket posted to you because they don't want a legal proceding to come about or are being courteous and duly understanding) or Hierarchy (eg top of command and thier lawyers may know where things stand, but does the cop on the beat know this where you are concerned?)

Where such logic and mind/information things fail, however, then either The Force of esoterics enters into...

How do you think that Force of Nature and traffic fines thing works m1?

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

O, you bring up family... that IS the tricky part... for some less so, but at least for me... I actually respect my family... it's old, been doing funky eccentric stuff for generations, and is tightly knit... The individualistic sense of freedom which requires me to jettison concern for them (and others) is not in my opinion true freedom (Nor do I think that that is what you are saying). At the same time I do need to be able to consider them, and their freedom, and not blindly react to their needs all the time, should they become tyrranical in some way... I need to be aware of them, and yet have the courage to choose my own way... Negotiations... perpetual negotiations...

Hey Anibis,

Yeah, family is the tricky one. I would say that it does not help their own progress through system to be kept in a state of illusion and limitation, deeper in maya than they need to be. Just prolongs the state of being in incarnative sufferring... and the life experience is worse at such a lower level of consciousness too, being more productive of sufferring for the individual involved.

The solution there I think is not to simply leave them to their own rate of progress, because unlike they connect to you. You're either going to burn bright and clear and leave them far behind, in a place where they can't really relate to you and you can't really respect who and what they are anymore... or you can fetch them along for the ride. To fetch them along for the ride, when they don't want to go there yet themselves, you need to do what I call forge them.

Basically make them hard and strong and not willing to kneel or really able to break. To do this you have to take them right to the edge of where they're willing to go and who they're willing to be. The flows of life carry the process and you just need to do your part with words and motions as the situations unfold through life's trials, the individual one's of the family members you run through whatever purification process you are using to upshift them through the spheres of awareness and out of the moksha. It will hurt them probably, and cut them some, and make them a whole lot stronger. And the trick is to do it all in such a way that the connection between the people involved actually gets stronger through the process, not weaker and breaks apart. Don't walk too close to the edge and know when to back off.

But I don't think it serves any positive purpose to keep them low down on the consciousness and strength/awareness scale out of a desire to be gentle and avoiding cutting them where they need to be cut. Hmm, it's a weird process I guess, the stripping away of sheaths. Helps if you have other sheaths, or pretty illusions, or layers of aura, to 'wrap' them in to make the process somewhat easier for them. Still tricky at times though...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Anibis]

Yes, and sometimes they have much to teach us too. You always need to be a little vulnerable to what others can teach you. Mind you, I think in many ways, I have done what you describe; forged my closest friends and family. Usually beacause it is also the process by which I am forged... Mabye we are just speaking fancifully about something fairly mundane? Negotiating human relationships... People who are magi however are ofter greatly misunderstood... that's undeniable... often we are left with no choice (by people who would simply try to bully us by force) but to totally and intensely jar the context. Usually shocks the hell out of people actually when they realise you are a dragon... I agree with you though, it must bring the people closer together, that's the art of it; Love under Will.... I just don't pretend to calculate it like some conspirator. When I throw down it is very much in the moment as a direct response to the context... bypasses reason, yet carries it along for the ride, so as to keep things consistent. Generally, I am open to what people who are wiser than me have to say, more and more by the day, and it's like breathing fresh air...
-Anibis
MM: I love it... you ALWAYS see when I speak as a Juggler... it makes me glow... People understand... Made of movement...

[deviadah]

Freedom concerns me a great deal. I define it as being able to do whatever you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone/anything else. To quote myself in another thread which sums it up best for me: READ (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=18909&postcount=25)

But in todays world living life in such a way is a problem since we have dictators in some parts of the world and the law in others.

Mahatma Gandhi is correct when he says that violent means will give violent freedom, but he is also wrong. Non-violence should always be the aim in any situation, and in a more utopian world such ideas would even be practical and feasible. Unfortunately the world is not such a place, yet, and when the Oppressor (that you have before you) refuse to grant you the freedom you yearn, and when he digs his claws into your skin you have two possible paths to walk down.

One is to do as you are told, even if it is against your will, and let yourself be enslaved, imprisoned, harmed or killed. The other is to refuse, even if the result will be enslavement, imprisonment, harm or the end of your life. If you live freely why die caged? Never give in. Never let anyone command you. Never subjugate yourself to an agenda you don’t fully agree with.

People should be free to do as they like and whoever that has got a problem with this should either get out of the fucking way, and if they don’t just walk, or stomp, over them.

If you don’t want to vote, don’t. If you don’t want to pay tax, don’t. If you don’t want to go to school, work or war then don’t. If you want to speak your mind, do so. If you want to take illegal drugs, then do so. If you want to do, feel, write, visit, scream, sing and refuse whatever it may be then do that, and never let anyone be in your way!

In practical terms it is difficult. I do a lot of things that are illegal for instance but it does not stop me. I have a debt that I will never pay. In fact I will soon leave the country I am in to escape it. I actually have the cash to pay, but it is the principle that makes me refuse. Although highly controversial, where I am, I refuse to vote because it is my choice.

If we can't see our chains they can't be broken. We are all slaves to systems that impose obligations (taxes, money, tradition etc) and it is impossible, for instance, to be a non-citizen.

The worst mental enemy is when people think: be glad you don't live in Iran or something like that... well to these minds I say that why settle for less, why settle for nothing, why settle for contentment?

Is that how the Pyramids got built?

[Zaii]

. A visiting Spartan was once shown by an Athenian the glories of their classical state, their architecture, philosophy, culture, big complex systems of commerce and theatre and politics. What do you have in Sparta to compare he asked, what can you Spartans do which matches up to all this? 'We know how to be free', was the reply.

I'm sure you're aware that the spartans were one of the most restrictive and discipline-oriented cultures to have ever lived, not to mention that they kept slaves, so I'm really curious where that quote comes from. Help me out?

[hitman777]

I'm sure you're aware that the spartans were one of the most restrictive and discipline-oriented cultures to have ever lived, not to mention that they kept slaves, so I'm really curious where that quote comes from. Help me out?

Probably from that piece of shit 300 movie. Nothing like ripping apart history to use as propaganda.

[Zaii]

Probably from that piece of shit 300 movie. Nothing like ripping apart history to use as propaganda.

While I've heard many times the propaganda/racist angles people claim the movie is coming from, I disagree.

The movie at no point makes a claim to be historically accurate, and anyone who does so much as a tiny little google search can find within 10 minutes a ton of information about the battle of thermopylae.

One very important piece of the story (not the history) to take into account is that it's told from the perspective of the "only surviving spartan of the 300" as he tells it around a campfire to more spartans, and ofcourse he would exaggerate and stretch to hype up the troops he was about to take into battle against the very same force which killed his comrades.

There are also basically what amount to demons in the persian army. Anyone who complains about historical accuracy must have missed the part, because it's clear from that alone that the people involved with the movie were more concerned with telling a certain kind of story than making a documentary, which they never claim to be doing. I guess the marauding, 9 foot vaguely humanoid monster wasn't enough of a tip off for some people, and if the naysayers didn't happen to realize it's just a story when the executioner demon with blades as forearms showed up, or maybe the satyr in Xerxes's tent, or hell, I don't know, the fact that Xerxes was portrayed as a giant himself.

Another key point is that Zach Snyder, the director, in multiple interviews has repeatedly emphasized that the movie was not geared around historical accuracy, and that it was aimed at telling a story aimed at an adult audience. Also to note is that he's a fairly liberal fellow, which in and of itself takes some wind out of the "propaganda against the East" argument.

The crux of this is that the primary complaint about this movie came from the nation of Iran. An interesting facet of that is that the movie is banned in Iran, so how in the hell did they ever see it to criticize it? It's like the same people here in america who don't read books, but rather read reviews by someone of their pet political alignment, and then suddenly "have their own opinion". The caveat is that while they are making cries of racism, their leader outright denies the holocaust as a historical event. How's that for historical revision and a racist perspective? Of course, as has been stated many times, the people responsible for 300 never make any claims of historical accuracy, and openly admit the hyperbolized nature of the story.

The real problem I have is that suddenly everyone and their mother is hot to trot for spartans and this little piece of history. Frankly the entire course of history would have massively shifted if this had turned out differently. Maybe the Greeks would have stopped the invasion beyond thermopylae, and maybe they wouldn't have. Maybe we'd all be Islamic at this point. There is no way of knowing. It's absurd that people didn't care about this gem in history before, but now it's a big deal. What I do know is that all the bandwagoning is ridiculous, especially given this new fetishization of spartans. The people talking this kind of talk would not have wanted to live one day amongst spartans. They murdered and severely beat their own children to expunge weakness from amongst their people, amongst other things, and were one of the most fanatic and blood thirsty cultures to have ever lived. Given that most of this idolization is coming from america, where over 50% of the population is obese, and the country values convenience and ease over anything else.....well I think you can see where I'm going with this.

So, I don't really think the film is propaganda, nor do I put it on the pedestal many have.

[Kain]

One very important piece of the story (not the history) to take into account is that it's told from the perspective of the "only surviving spartan of the 300" as he tells it around a campfire to more spartans, and ofcourse he would exaggerate and stretch to hype up the troops he was about to take into battle against the very same force which killed his comrades.

There are also basically what amount to demons in the persian army. Anyone who complains about historical accuracy must have missed the part, because it's clear from that alone that the people involved with the movie were more concerned with telling a certain kind of story than making a documentary, which they never claim to be doing. I guess the marauding, 9 foot vaguely humanoid monster wasn't enough of a tip off for some people, and if the naysayers didn't happen to realize it's just a story when the executioner demon with blades as forearms showed up, or maybe the satyr in Xerxes's tent, or hell, I don't know, the fact that Xerxes was portrayed as a giant himself.

Another key point is that Zach Snyder, the director, in multiple interviews has repeatedly emphasized that the movie was not geared around historical accuracy, and that it was aimed at telling a story aimed at an adult audience. Heheh...rightly said I think Zaii, I agree with you on this. I should also point out that the movie itself is based on a comicbook by Frank Miller, rather than historical documentation per se, making it even more subjective and potentially remote from accurate depiction of historical events.

Kain

[Talkingfox]

Heheh...rightly said I think Zaii, I agree with you on this. I should also point out that the movie itself is based on a comicbook by Frank Miller, rather than historical documentation per se, making it even more subjective and potentially remote from accurate depiction of historical events.

Kain


Uh, yeah. I don't even think I need to mention the role (or lack thereof) of women in Spartan Society?

I went to go see 300...and cracked up laughing though most of it.
I must profess a certain weakness for splat-fest films, no matter how ridiculous.

[hitman777]

Heheh...rightly said I think Zaii, I agree with you on this. I should also point out that the movie itself is based on a comicbook by Frank Miller, rather than historical documentation per se, making it even more subjective and potentially remote from accurate depiction of historical events.

Kain
Oh, I'm aware that it's based on the comic which was based on actual events. And I wasn't saying anything about the race angle, at all. What I was saying was that the movie tried to remake the Spartans as early "champions of democracy" which is retarded. Also, putting the queen in such a high role was ridiculous, considering she played next to no part even in the comic, much less real history.
I wasn't whining about any racial angle at all. The only thing that has to do with race that I can think of is that in truth, the Spartans and the other Greeks were basically fighting to make sure Greece stayed Greek. Nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think that the portrayal of the Persians as monsters was probably done to make it more fantastical and try to head off any cries of "racism." Which is getting really old. Every racial group on the planet is the butt of jokes, learn to deal with it, y'know? I don't burst into tears and try to play the race card everytime I see a ridiculous white stereotype on television. I laugh. Because according to tv, we're all either psychos, pussies, or cops. :laugh:

[Zaii]

Oh, I'm aware that it's based on the comic which was based on actual events. And I wasn't saying anything about the race angle, at all. What I was saying was that the movie tried to remake the Spartans as early "champions of democracy" which is retarded. Also, putting the queen in such a high role was ridiculous, considering she played next to no part even in the comic, much less real history.
I wasn't whining about any racial angle at all. The only thing that has to do with race that I can think of is that in truth, the Spartans and the other Greeks were basically fighting to make sure Greece stayed Greek. Nothing wrong with that. If anything, I think that the portrayal of the Persians as monsters was probably done to make it more fantastical and try to head off any cries of "racism." Which is getting really old. Every racial group on the planet is the butt of jokes, learn to deal with it, y'know? I don't burst into tears and try to play the race card everytime I see a ridiculous white stereotype on television. I laugh. Because according to tv, we're all either psychos, pussies, or cops. :laugh:

Right on brother. I feel you.

[Zaii]

No. Whilst I may not be personally attacking you as a courtesy to abrahadabra forums, I still want to see you suffer. That's just my character.

Besides, I'm not your secretary. Do you own f*cking historical research.

Okazaki.

Well, given that Athens was pretty close to a democracy, and Sparta was actually one of the societies with the least civil liberties at that time, the quote doesn't make any sense, so I was wondering where you were citing it from. Or did you just make it up?

[m1thr0s]

I thought the Oracle Girl (Kelly Craig (http://www.myspace.com/kellycraig300)) was smokin'. acting dripped off the screen like luke warm bacon grease. script was completely propogandistic (m-u-s-t • h-a-t-e • s-i-c-k-o • p-e-r-s-i-a-n-s) but pretty funny if you're drunk while watching it, and the very best part of all was the slow-mo javo-fu of those super-swavo spartans. These guys are so cool they can take on 100-1 odds without even taking their capes off!

kinda thought maybe the immortals got the shit-end of the stick but that's what they get for bein' teamed up with a bunch of loser drag queens anyway I guess...

and here I thought maybe Persia knew some shit...:o

oh yeah...the Baphomet cameo was a nice touch...except of course that that particular form of Baphomet doesn't really exist until around 1300 AD or something...but this film had nothing to do with historical accuracy. I think it was actually an overbudgeted army recruitment flick...

m1thr0s

[Lucian]

I thought the Oracle Girl (Kelly Craig (http://www.myspace.com/kellycraig300)) was smokin',
Ditto.acting dripped off the screen like luke warm bacon grease,Well, to be honest the actors themselves were just taking supporting roles next to their ultra ripped abs of Spartan bad assness. No one cared that they spoke as long as they remained well oiled beasts.

"And the Oscar goes too..... Gerard Butler's abs in "300"!!!" *applause*but this film had nothing to do with historical accuracy. I think it was actually an overbudgeted army recruitment flick...Agreed. Either join the army, or join a gym in pursuit of that hot Spartan body.

It took a few weeks for my boyfriend to stop randomly shouting "FOR SPARTAAAAAA!!!" :rolleyes:

That the Spartans were portrayed as fighting for Freedom and spent so much time talking about reason and so forth also struck me as very odd. I remember them essentially being a brutal police state intent on keeping everyone out of Sparta - even fellow Greeks. It's been a few years since my Western Civilizations class, but I don't recall them being champions of democracy.

Of course, it all makes sense if you take it for the army recruitment flick it probably is. America = Sparta in the minds of young men??

[Kuroyagi]

Uh, yeah. I don't even think I need to mention the role (or lack thereof) of women in Spartan Society?

I went to go see 300...and cracked up laughing though most of it.
I must profess a certain weakness for splat-fest films, no matter how ridiculous.
Women in antique Greece had nowhere as much actual power as in Sparta! Its true. The men were often on campaigns of war, training beating and supressing the rebellious Messenians or drinking and feasting in sisitia and the women were the unquestioned rulers of their large agricultural "companies", oikos- households with dozen of slaves and servants and retainers under their command. They managed this all and had the freedom to do with it as they pleased. Also the laws on divorce where more liberal (seen from todays standpoint). Quite amazing actually. (Of course Spartan society as a whole was based on suppression; it was striving cause they had subjugated the neighbouring states and regions and enslaved them...Aristotle too was very impressed by Spartan constitution: the old prof mentioned it positively in his works on the state.)

In Roman times Sparta had become some sort of a tourist attraction with a certain "disney land" flair. Rich Roman citizens traveled there to watch the "authentic" Spartan life. In those days it was a mere theater for the tourists and Sparta had none of its power or glory. The last Spartan king of worth was Kleomenes III. In Roman times it was nothing more but a small and otherwise unimportant town embedded in an uneventful colony of the empire.

History is quite fun when one studies it.

The film 300 hadnt much to do with history; so what, it was fun, too! it can also inspire to read the chronicles by Herodot, Ephialtes- the hunchback traitor in the film- also is mentioned there. He was merely a local shepard who lead parts of the Persians over a secret route. Or check out the The Persians by our Aeschylos. Cool stuff, too!

p.s. I have also read the quote Okazaki gave somewhere. I think its historical (i.e. authentic).

[Zaii]

I really don't think the film is propaganda any more than any piece of art is propaganda. Yes, it's obviously biased towards the spartans, but if it leads people to join the military, let's be honest, they were going to do it in the first place, and if they didn't take some film wildly out of context to inspire them to do so, they would have taken something else wildly out of context.

As far as maintaining the integrity of the story, I view the film like Constantine. It has only a bit to do with what it's based on, but if you take it for what it is, it's a well executed story in and of itself.

[m1thr0s]

well, the Persians of course occupied a territory that is now Iraq. I just find the whole depiction of the Persians as a bunch of depraved psycho's to be just a little too convenient and not at all indicative of that culture's noble history...

but yeah...what does hollywood give a crap about historical accuracy...

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

well, the Persians of course occupied a territory that is now Iraq. I just find the whole depiction of the Persians as a bunch of depraved psycho's to be just a little too convenient and not at all indicative of that culture's noble history...

but yeah...what does hollywood give a crap about historical accuracy...

m1thr0s

The movie paints Xerxes as especially kind, if a bit deranged. In the beginning he offers the Spartans a chance to surrender, and then despite their continued resistance, keeps up the offer, adding more and more concessions to it. The crux of the climax is based around Xerxes offering all manner of pleasures to Euphiades, requiring only his loyalty. The Spartans murdered and beat their children, which was not hidden in the movie, so it's not as if they were made out to be angels. Clearly you're supposed to root for the Spartans by the way the story is told, but it's not as if they're role models by any means. All in all, it's just a story loosely based on history well wrapped in fantasy.

[m1thr0s]

All in all, it's just a story loosely based on history well wrapped in fantasy.
well, if you insist. personally I saw propoganda slathered all over the damn thing...but it was pretty funny and I'd probably watch it again...

fans of Dan Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Savage) may get a kick out of his review of "300"

With nothing but time on my hands this week, I slipped out of the office and went to the movies. Have you seen 300 yet? It's about a handful of lightly armed ancient Greeks—the Spartans—who take on the mighty, massive Persian army.Some feel the film is homophobic; some feel it's a conservative, pro-war piece of agitprop.

Homophobic? It's Ann Coulter on a meth binge.

The Persian army is an armed gay-pride parade, a threat to all things decent and, er, Greek. The king of the Spartans—among the most notorious boy-fuckers in all of ancient history—dismisses Athenian Greeks as weak-willed "philosophers and boy lovers." The Persian emperor? An eight-foot-tall black drag queen—mascara, painted-on eyebrows, pink lip gloss. Emperor RuPaul is positively obsessed with men kneeling in front of him. Why gay up the Persians? So that straight boys in the theater can identify with the Spartan king and his 300 soldiers—all of whom appear to have been recruited from and outfitted by the International Male catalog.

What isn't up for debate is the film's politics. The only times the Persian army doesn't look like a gay-pride parade in hell, it looks like a crowd of madly chanting Islamic militants. And if the Spartan king has to break Spartan law to defend Spartan freedoms? Well, sometimes a king's gotta do what a king's gotta do. Because, as the queen of Sparta points out, freedom isn't free. And, yes, she uses exactly those words. George Bush is going to blow a load in his pants when he sees this movie.

- Dan Savage
m1thr0s

[Zaii]

I can't really deny the possibilities for people to misinterpret the film and use it as motivation to do idiotic things, but I think the same thing here applies to a myriad of other mediums. If it begins here, and we call the movie propaganda, do we then label every violent video game as encouraging violence? Is the grand theft auto franchise really meant to encourage slinging dope, banging and then murdering hookers, and generally harmful behavior? Or is it that idiotic people will be find any excuse to continue doing idiotic things?

I'm one of the most fervent anti-bush, anti-conservative people that I know of. I'm against practically everything the man has ever done, and don't think too much of him. However, I just don't think the movie is propaganda. That doesn't mean I don't respect your right to have that opinion, of course. What gripes me is that some people have blindly and forcefully lashed out against the film, in ridiculous circumstances (the Iranian protest, for example, given all the hypocrisy of their particular leadershi).

[m1thr0s]

well...it's just a freaking movie Zaii...I'm not sure it warrants all this high powered emotionalism. But it's a movie that creates cartoon characters out of real people and distorts real events to make the obvious heroes way more heroic than they ever were and the villains way more villainous than they ever were and to what end.

You seem to be saying it's "just entertainment" but I really think it would have been a lot more entertaining if it had been a little more truthful. So you have to ask yourself, what's the point? And the obvious answer to that question is that the point was to make the spartans look like they invented the word freedom! Why is that propogandistic? Western culture has a kind of fetish with ancient Greece which permeates everything from philosophy to art and science and now the Media as well. I don't really care so much...I like ancient Greece too but that doesn't make the Persians anything like how they were portrayed in this movie. The whole thrust of the film is to perpetrate a fraud and that fraud has a very clear subliminal message: Greeks = Freedom Loving Good Guys - Persians = Scum Sucking Losers.

And that makes it propogandistic and sure it will impact a few people in unproductive ways. For the mostpart I think it was done so badly it will mostly make people laugh... Just because we label a thing as propoganda doesn't mean we think it's going to change the world. It will mislead a few...perhaps "the few, the bold...the marines"!

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

well...it's just a freaking movie Zaii...I'm not sure it warrants all this high powered emotionalism.
I'm not remotely emotional about it. If that's the impression you got, that's not what I meant to give. It's just a good point of debate to me.

But it's a movie that creates cartoon characters out of real people and distorts real events to make the obvious heroes way more heroic than they ever were and the villains way more villainous than they ever were and to what end. How does that differ from 90% of what comes out of hollywood? If everyone flipped their switch over every film that used those elements, this would never end.

You seem to be saying it's "just entertainment" but I really think it would have been a lot more entertaining if it had been a little more truthful. and that's your opinion, dually noted.

So you have to ask yourself, what's the point? The point was to tell an entertaining story, as the director has stated over and over in a myriad of mediums, as he has fervently denied any political affiliations, and flat out turned down both the accusations that the spartans represent americans, or iraqis, which is the other rumor that's been circulating.

And the obvious answer to that question is that the point was to make the spartans look like they invented the word freedom! Why is that propogandistic? Western culture has a kind of fetish with ancient Greece which permeates everything from philosophy to art and science and now the Media as well. I don't really care so much...I like ancient Greece too but that doesn't make the Persians anything like how they were portrayed in this movie. The whole thrust of the film is to perpetrate a fraud and that fraud has a very clear subliminal message: Greeks = Freedom Loving Good Guys - Persians = Scum Sucking Losers. This situation to me seems very similar to the English who were complaining big time about Braveheart and its portrayal of them in it. No one hears about that anymore, which is really what I think will happen with this eventually. The exact same parallels were made in that film. They created a romantic angle that didn't really exist as they portrayed it in history and played up the female role. They made the Scottish out to be "the good guys" at every turn and the English to be devilish. Etc etc. You can find propaganda in that movie if you're looking for it, or you can take it as it is: a story based on a piece of history spiced up for hollywood....which is getting to be a familiar tone.

While I understand why the movie is getting so much flak, and it's easy for anyone with the least little bit of "politically correct" in them to pick it apart, it's like that in anything. I mean hell, when lord of the rings came out, people were saying it was propaganda because the orcs were dark skinned and represented dark skinned people around the world as "evil", despite all the glaring fantasy in the film which removes it from real world context......similar to 300. As far as propaganda, much that could be used for far more nefarious purposes has come out of america in the past and will come out of it in the future. The entire culture is saturated with it.

On an entirely different note, I don't inherently see propaganda as a bad thing. Anyone trying to get their ideas into other people is making propaganda (simply: words/symbols/delivery that evoke emotions/states/energy), the issue arises with the core beliefs that the propaganda is based around, but that's another topic altogether.

[Kain]

This situation to me seems very similar to the English who were complaining big time about Braveheart and its portrayal of them in it. No one hears about that anymore, which is really what I think will happen with this eventually. The exact same parallels were made in that film. They created a romantic angle that didn't really exist as they portrayed it in history and played up the female role. They made the Scottish out to be "the good guys" at every turn and the English to be devilish. Etc etc. You can find propaganda in that movie if you're looking for it, or you can take it as it is: a story based on a piece of history spiced up for hollywood....which is getting to be a familiar tone.

While I understand why the movie is getting so much flak, and it's easy for anyone with the least little bit of "politically correct" in them to pick it apart, it's like that in anything. I mean hell, when lord of the rings came out, people were saying it was propaganda because the orcs were dark skinned and represented dark skinned people around the world as "evil", despite all the glaring fantasy in the film which removes it from real world context......similar to 300. As far as propaganda, much that could be used for far more nefarious purposes has come out of america in the past and will come out of it in the future. The entire culture is saturated with it. I think this is a very good point by the way...I agree with this viewpoint personally, I think it is well put Zaii.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

You can find propaganda in that movie if you're looking for it, or you can take it as it is: a story based on a piece of history spiced up for hollywood....which is getting to be a familiar tone.yeah well...one propogandistic piece of shit's as good as the next, eh?

While I understand why the movie is getting so much flak, and it's easy for anyone with the least little bit of "politically correct" in them to pick it apart, it's like that in anything.fuck your "politically correct" card Zaii...you're pushing that shit way too hard I think. This movie was crap, man and people expected better...I expected better...it's one of history's really great stories and they shit all over it. The director denied everything??? lol...give me a break...he obviously can't deny being a pisspoor director.

But hey look...really bad movies like this have a tendency to become cult classics anyway and maybe this one will too. It goes pretty good with a couple of pints of beer...but the film itself is pure cheezewhiz.

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

I understand that you don't like the film. You've been clear about that from the beginning. Whether or not you enjoy it has never been the question or subject. I'm simply trying to point out that a person can find propaganda in anything if they're looking for it. I'm not attacking you. I disagree with the presented point that the film is propaganda, and thus I'm debating it. Why do you feel the need to be rude about this?

[m1thr0s]

rude???

lol...apparently you have never even seen me rude...

I'm not upset at all...I'm having fun with this. I think it's interesting something like this would get a rise out of you!

don't be so thin skinned now mr tough guy!

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

You're not going to provoke me, so stop trying. You took a civilized debate and tried to make it personal. I was simply trying to figure out what your beef was. I don't know what it is that you feel you need to take out on me, and I don't care. If you're determined to act like this and derail a perfectly good topic, I won't be a part of it.

[m1thr0s]

...and anyway you raise some interesting points.

I think it's fair to say that maybe 90% of everything in the media is propogandistic bullshit...so why does this bug some of us and other bits don't?

I'm not exactly sure...but I do think it's because I was really looking forward to this film as soon as I heard they were making it. Like I said...it's one of history's really great stories...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

You're not going to provoke me, so stop trying. You took a civilized debate and tried to make it personal. I was simply trying to figure out what your beef was. I don't know what it is that you feel you need to take out on me, and I don't care. If you're determined to act like this and derail a perfectly good topic, I won't be a part of it.
for Xst sake Zaii...get a grip. It's just a damn movie...I'm not going after you in any personal sort of way...you're imagining shit, man...

I'm always a little surly first thing in the morning but you are making mountains out of molehills here...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

As for derailing topics...this topic has been derailed for several pages now so it's way out of control already:

Inspired by another thread which was getting off topic, I thought I'd start this one. It is for the discussion of the nature of Freedom: what it means to be free, what freedom itself means, how one lives as a Free Man (or Free Woman) and so on.that's where this thing was supposed to be going...the movie 300 doesn't really have shit to do with anything, save that it was supposed to be about freedom...

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

for Xst sake Zaii...get a grip. It's just a damn movie...I'm not going after you in any personal sort of way...you're imagining shit, man...

I'm always a little surly first thing in the morning but you are making mountains out of molehills here...

m1thr0s

What does telling me "fuck your politically correct card" and calling my ideas "shit" have to do with the movie? That's just not respectful, and I never talked to you like that, or did anything to warrant being dealt with as such.

don't be so thin skinned now mr tough guy!

I certainly didn't imagine that. I also didn't imagine the part where you admitted to trying to provoke me.

I'm not upset at all...I'm having fun with this. I think it's interesting something like this would get a rise out of you!

How would I get treated if I was the one picking a fight with you? Everyone and their mother would be on my ass like white on snow.

[Radiant Star]

Is there a point to this thread?

[m1thr0s]

Is there a point to this thread?
lol...there is now...

let's try to get this thing back on track or just shut it down...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I can't believe you people didn't like 300...

The only thing I had a problem with was the incorrect military formations and they didn't feature some important aspects of Sparta itself, particularily the six-petalled flower icon....

Couldn't be helped though, sealed past and everything...

I have the internet, I can look at naked fucking oily guys all day long if I wanted to - that wasn't why I enjoyed 300 (the only good looking guy was Xerxes and the goat anyways)

Oh yeah great flamewar!

[Kuroyagi]

Maybe its also interesting to note how much a certain freedom is taken for granted once it has been attained/established. In many Western countries a large portion of freedom is defined by ones income/financial power and one forgets that others dont even have physical freedom.

I was surprised when my brother told me that in Lebanon where he lives many also cultured ppl have mostly Indian household aids who they practically hold as slaves....

Another thing to ponder about is how much one can restrict ones own freedom by being too paranoid about ones environment/social system. Esp. many magicians and others who practice deconditioning rightly/correctly! point out the fascist tendencies of eg large corporations and political mechanisms. Yet its often unwise to rebel against them too openly on a daily basis. Its maybe injust but if one sits in prison its also not that productive. After all its only natural that (the egregores of bureaucracy and) society try to defend themsleves against disintegration, maybe subtlety is called for...dunno Im a very inconspicous citizen myself- "in exile" so to speak, and not too interested in practical politics...

[Kuroyagi]

It a question of degree, I think... freedom operates in different fields... at some points, it is wise to retreat from an impossible battle and re-group elswhere. It fluctuates, too. Who here truely claims to have an unwavering total freedom in all fields of their experience? Even the fact that we have bodies is a sort of limitation... In some ways limitation is precisely the invitation which evokes our freedom, causing us to invent ways to be free when otherwise, if we were perfectly satisfied, we would not even attempt. I think the freeman/slave dichotomy is too simple, really... sometime our energy is totally dynamic, sometimes it is forced to react to forces around us... it's how we maintain the total system of action and response which determines how we are, I think... O, you bring up family... that IS the tricky part... for some less so, but at least for me... I actually respect my family... it's old, been doing funky eccentric stuff for generations, and is tightly knit... The individualistic sense of freedom which requires me to jettison concern for them (and others) is not in my opinion true freedom (Nor do I think that that is what you are saying). At the same time I do need to be able to consider them, and their freedom, and not blindly react to their needs all the time, should they become tyrranical in some way... I need to be aware of them, and yet have the courage to choose my own way... Negotiations... perpetual negotiations... It all blends into non-duality, in which Freedom and Slavery aren't really THAT different. If slavery is simply being forcibly conditioned, and freedom is showing undaunted courage and will to overcome said conditioning, is not the coupling of the two qualities precisely what enables us to be individuals, to be evolving forms, to have finity and infinity, the circle and the point operating silmultaneously? Spiritual ambidexterity, I'd call it... Left hand right hand path coordinations... so to speak... Neat topic. Difficult too... 'Freedom' so easily lends itself to propaganda and rhetoric...
-AnibisBtw, super post Anibis!

[Naomi]

It all blends into non-duality, in which Freedom and Slavery aren't really THAT different. If slavery is simply being forcibly conditioned, and freedom is showing undaunted courage and will to overcome said conditioning, is not the coupling of the two qualities precisely what enables us to be individuals, to be evolving forms, to have finity and infinity, the circle and the point operating silmultaneously? Spiritual ambidexterity, I'd call it..I don't think so.

Slavery is abhorrent, you'll never catch me defending it or saying it is at all similar to freedom....I've defended that position myself in the past, so I understand it, but I've come to realize I was mislead by my fear of being truly free, and accepting all of the responsibility it entails.

It's like saying ugliness is beautiful. Bullshit.

We all experience some level of slavery, whether it's mental or emotional, but no, it's not similar to freedom.

http://www.thetengu.com/abrahadabra/boulanger-theslavemarket.jpg

Boulanger
The Slave Market

http://www.thetengu.com/abrahadabra/dalou-wisdomsupportingfreed.jpg

Dalou
Wisdom Supporting Freedom

[m1thr0s]

I can't believe you people didn't like 300...it's equally as hard to understand how anybody could miss the extreme distortions going on with this film but so far as cheap entertainment goes, it was fairly entertaining. I don't like seeing predjudice passing itself off as entertainment personally. I don't think it's useful or necessary or a good thing in general. Why, for instance, was it necessary to portray the Immortals as a bunch of mutant dwarfs hiding their leprosy behind metalic masks? This bears exactly no resemblance to any kind of truth regarding the Immortals. And the list of extreme distortions just goes on and on...there was hardly anything about this film that was even remotely authentic on any level...

Doesn't mean it wasn't entertaining...the problem is that a lot of people are going to come away thinking that the Heirophants were just a bunch of diseased letches mainly into abusing pretty young Spartan women etc...or a hundred other distortions that were neither true nor necessary. If this movie had been pure fiction, portrayed as pure fiction, that would be different...but it passes itself off as an action docu-drama and then proceeds to violate everything in its path...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I saw the extreme distortions, it's kind of hard to miss giant goat anthros, the bottomless pit, the allusions to insanely dark and evil voodoo magic, the oversized rhinoceroses from hades, the ninja people descended from the Lord of the Rings.

I GET IT.

I don't get why Iran is bitching about the movie, as far as I'm concerned it made them look cool as hell. How is that prejudice?!?

I would have made the Spartans have vampire fangs and bleed their enemies dry and stuff...I mean if you're going to get crazy you might as well do it to the extreme....

It's based on the comic book anyways...

[m1thr0s]

It's based on the comic book anyways...Yes, people are saying that all of a sudden as though it were some sort of doctor's excuse or something. The problem is that this whole event actually did happen and it doesn't matter if they have thrown in behind some other distortion just to justify their own damn greed...two wrongs don't make a right...

Very few people have even heard of this comic book anyway and will be completely unaware of this. With comic books you already know you are dealing in the absurd. A movie is a different thing, particularly when it passes itself off as history. I watched every trailer produced on this film before seeing the thing. Not once was any comic book ever alluded to, whereas the real historical episode was played up to the max.

I don't get why Iran is bitching about the movie, as far as I'm concerned it made them look cool as hell. How is that prejudice?!?gee I don't know...maybe everybody doesn't appreciate having their history served up like a smorgasbord of cheap theatrical caricatures just to line a few smug assholes pockets with money...:rolleyes:

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Ok...well...you know what...

You're right.

I enjoyed it though.

[m1thr0s]

yeah...it was funny. I'd probably watch it again.

I'm only saying it was an inexcusable farce...not saying it wasn't entertaining...some of the filming techniques were the best I've ever seen...

m1thr0s