Using Qlippothic energies on magickal weapons

[BrotherM]

I have asked this in the past on other forums and gotten the usual "OMG, if you do this you will DIE, and then, and then, THEY will EAT YOUR SOUL!" but I suspect that the calibre of magickian is higher here.

So the question is this, is it not more "complete" to use both the ToL and the ToD in the creation of magickal weapons? Has anybody actually tried this? I just bought a new sword and I am tempted to consecrate one side with the ToL corrsepondences and the other side with the ToD ones and see what happens.

Before you ask, I have pathworked the Qlippoth, I have worked with the energies and I have done the same with the Sephiroth so I know I can call up the energies and use them, I just don't feel like wasting a pretty sword with the suck and see approach...

[fr.novumorganum]

That's a great question. Unfortunately, one I can't answer from experience. However, if you balanced the dark side of the tree I see no reason why this wouldn't work.

[BrotherM]

I was kind of hoping the dark side of the tree would balance the normal weapon. Although not at all orderly, nature is very balanced. The chaos that exists in natural balance is what gives life momentum and energy. My wish is that this chaotic energy (conflict) brought by combining the light and dark parts of the tree will create something very alive in its own right...

[m1thr0s]

I think that what has really been happening here is that the Tree of Death is coming into a newer (and probably much better) definition than the Qliphoth as outlined by older versions of either Qabbalah or Kabbalah...

m1thr0s

[Neshamah]

The Dayside Tree already has enough negativity on it (Binah, Geburah, and Yesod) that you don't need to mess with the Nightside Tree. As a matter of fact, the Nightside Tree would be counter-effective against your weapons.

You see, Binah and Geburah have intensely Negative sides (some of the correspondences for Binah are Kronos [who eats his young] and Saturn - the very image of Death, complete with Black, tattered robe, skull and scythe). Geburah is Mars, which has the connotations of War, Pestilence, Famine, and wholesale Death. Yesod is the world of Illusion, so you have Deception, Lies, and Negative Astral entities galore in that Sephirah.

The world of the Qlippoth (means "shells") is a tricky one. Much of the Tree is empty (hence "shells") waiting to be filled with human evil and "sin." Once the human begins working with it, all manner of evil can be displayed -- however most of this is coming from the user's own heart and mind. In all honesty, I don't believe you'll get anything useful from the Nightside Tree (unless you plan to do some psychological work with your "shadow").

Use the Dayside Tree. There's more than enough Negative Energy to "balance" your weapons. You won't regret it.

Love, Light, and Peace,

Neshamah

[BrotherM]

Neshamah, I don't quite agree with your definitions. There are things in the ToL that I do not like and that do not cause me comfort, but they are born of light and the negativity is based on my perception and stage of development. You may find death an uncomfortable thing to encounter on the Tree, however, I have overcome that and am very comfortable with this aspect, in fact it is something that I relate to on a very deep level and even love. Likewise, you will have overcome things that I still struggle with.

The Dark side is totally different in my experience as the energies here pour out from the lamp of darkness and are very chaotic by their nature. Where as the figures on the light side may be unpleasant based on perception, they aren't evil in the way the beings on the darkside are. In my many wonderings on the ToD, I have found it to be far from empty. The lessons of the ToD are also very different to the ToL, so hard to explain, but it is like a reversal of senses and after you let go and embrace the madness, it is unlimited joy.

My thinking is along the lines of this: Qabalistically, God first created darkness and he did so so that it may eat away at himself and create space. Within this space God could then create the Trees which I view as the machines which built the universe. As the light flows down the ToL, so does the dark flow up the ToD and when the two combine they create this glorious duality of life, balanced through constant conflict. That conflict cause presure and that is the force that is the driver of all creation (IMHO). I would really like to capture a piece of that creative energy.

EDIT: A side thought, think of it as a giant cosmic battery and the polarity of light and darkness (like the plus and minus terminals) is what makes the current flow. It's true, ABRAHADABRA will one day make techies of us all!

[m1thr0s]

I can see a kind of parallel to your ideas in the Bardos BrotherM...which, while not exactly the same, incorporate both Wrathful and Peaceful realms comprised of completely unique kinds of archetypes.

The principle of Ain Soph Aur allows for a number of manifest possibilities of the Tree of Life/Death in my view. On the "Ain" side we have this whole idea of things manifest via the "Great Black Mother" whereas on the "Ain Soph" side we have the idea of things manifest via the Father, more akin to what the Chinese call "Banners in the Light". In principle the Tree of Life is a direct emanation of Ain Soph Aur, positioned more central to the triad, but I think it can be reasonably asserted that we have tended to do preference to the Yang side of the equation here in the west. In the east we see a greater emphasis on the Yin with its various doctrines of "Nothingness" etc...

I do not see the Tree of Death as directly equatable to Qliphoth however. I feel like this is where a certain confusion slips into things. Qliphoth doesn't "emanate" from anywhere...it is the refuse or shadow remnants left over from the first manifestation attempt of the ToL which is purported to have failed, sending "shards" or "shells" of matter flying everywhere. Unless we are attempting to completely rewrite this whole scenario, I don't see where the two conversations can be the same...

But this all very fascinating in my view. It comes up occasionally and I tend to think it is an idea whose time has come somehow...

m1thr0s

[Neshamah]

m1thr0s, that was my thinking as I was trying to describe the Qliphothic nature of the Nightside Tree. The 'brokenness' of everything; the shards of irreparable cups and spheres; entities that are more pure broken chaos than evil -- this has been my experience of the Qlippoth. Except for a couple of exceptions, I found nothing on the Nightside of the Tree that I could call evil with any degree of confidence.

I do see the two sides of Shiva in Geburah, though. I see a darkness in Binah that is frightening in its black-heartedness.

I'm not all that familiar with the "Tree of Death," as BrotherM has been calling it. My travels into the Tunnels of Set lead me to the Nightside of the Tree where everything is shattered and there is much sorrow. Now, some of the guardians of the Tunnelscan be pretty intimidating; but as far as blood-curdling screaming demons, I haven't found any on the Nightside Tree.

Searching for Understanding,

Neshamah

[BrotherM]

Hi Neshamah & m1thr0s,

I am sorry for my poor terminology, I am referring to the Shells to be specific, I call this the Tree of Death but I agree it is bad terminology. Perhaps I can clarrify what I am on about and then people who are better read can put it into common terminology (after I fail to clarify anything) and we can continue the discussion in mutual understanding (I would very much like this)

Tree of Life: As in the Sephiroth joined by the paths. To me there are positive and negative aspects to each, however the vast majority are orderly in nature.

Tree of Death (Qlippoth): The shells, left overs of the first attempt, places of madness and depravity and sadness, but also places of joy depending on if you are mad yourself. Qlippoth are joined by the tunnels of set (I think this is the correct terminology). There are between 7 to 10 Qlippoth (I believe 10)

Hidden Paths: Places on the Tree of Life where the Qlippoth touch, creating an area of disturbance where very unique energy exists

The reason for my wierd terminology is because I first saw the Shells as waste, a mistake, something to be avoided. After revisiting my attempts to know them (many times), I eventually got to appreciate their purpose, or what I saw as their purpose and they (in my fuzzy mind) stopped being useless leftovers and started being essential parts of life and existance. It was through this that I was able to find the Hidden Paths on the tree and that is to me where the real understanding is to be had.

IMO the Shells offer a different kind of basic energy to the Sephiroth. Avoiding the concept of good and evil, or dark or light, I tend to view the Qlippoth as chaotic energy and the Sephiroth as orderly energy. It seems that the physical world is in a space between the two, as we little life forms strive for order and as soon as we stop trying chaos reverts (Observing life often made me wonder if we are the 8th/11th Qlippoth). The point being that the meeting of the two contradictory (not opposite) energy forms creates a motion and power, which fuels creation. Lets face it, nothing in observable nature is wasted, why would whatever created the universe leave masses of "Shells" out there that serve no prupose at all?

Sorry, I continued the discussion before waiting for clarrity. m1thr0s, I believe that you are right, the time of the Qlippoth is coming, or at least, our time for the Qlippoth.

BrotherM

[m1thr0s]

I have mentioned this before in some other thread but it bears repeating. There is a stark resemblance to the idea of the "shells" and what scientists now refer to as first generation galaxies. Our galaxy is a second generation galaxy in which the stars which make up its total are a great deal more stable than those of first generation galaxies which had a very short lifespan due to an overabundance of infrared. Thus they could not "hold" the emanation from Crown for very long before they "shattered". The entire universe is filled with the remnants of these shattered elder galaxies...

Looking at it from that perspective, it would certainly be difficult to view these shells as being "useless" anything. Indeed, this was a critical first step in the evolution of our own galaxy and therefor, ultimately, of our very lives...

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

Not to mention the fertile source of ALL the material which the second generation galaxies are made up of... Rich deep humus... Wait... is that the same as the chickpea dip? I dunno... yum!
-Anibis

[Neshamah]

BrotherM,

What you call the Tree of Death has been called the Qlippoth (or Qliphoth) by many people for many years. Kenneth Grant calls that Qliphothic Tree the Nightside Tree, while the Tree with the Sephiroth is the Dayside Tree. I prefer his terminology, but can use yours if that is your preference.

While the Nightside Tree does contain broken shells of no value whatsoever, it also contains places of madness and despair. These places are connected by the Tunnels of Set (of which there are 22 - corresponding to the 22 Paths on the Dayside Tree) and the Tunnels of Set can be reached by "burrowing" into Da'ath (they may also be reached through Yesod, but this far more difficult and "dangerous").

We are basically talking about the same thing, BrotherM; the only difference between our views is that I see less that is useful in the Nightside Tree; and see far more that is useful in the Dayside Tree. I would prefer to use the 'negativities' that are part of the Dayside Tree, rather than the 'chaotic, unpredictable, and unstable energies' of the Nightside Tree.

I have sought balance for Elemental Tools, as well as balance for my own internal energies, and have found that balance in the "Negative" Polarities of the Dayside Tree (as we have discussed, the extremes of Geburah and Binah, etc.). For my personal operations, the energies of the Nightside Tree are simply too difficult to control.

I think we are in agreement about the nature of the Trees we are discussing; however, I think that our use of these energies (or lack thereof) is what separates our points-of-view.

I am interested in hearing about HOW you intend to use these energies and in what context they will be used. I am always intrigued by the methods of those who use magick differently than I do.

With Respect, In Love, Light, and Peace,

Neshamah

[m1thr0s]

I'm a little stuck between the worlds on this one since I can sort of see both sides on this. In a practical day-to-day sort of context, I don't really see where the pursuit of qliphotic universe actually adds anything to our knowledge base that we especially need to know...nothing that we don't know already basically. But looking at the Tree of Death as a kind of parallel universe to the Tree of Life, rooted in the Chinese equivalent of Wu Chi (http://www.ichingwisdom.com/IChingWisdom/intro.html) for instance, it is a lot easier for me to find the relevance...

Many things in life are made up of the remnants of other things and if we track it all down on a subatomic level there may in fact be nothing we can point to that isn't. So I fear that some of this whole fascination may simply be a busy-work that chews up a lot of time and energy and really takes us nowhere of any real use to any of us. But to understand the magickal value of something like this you have to also understand what parts of consciousness itself actually correspond to it and this, I think, is not at all clear. Some would argue that we are defining delerium consciousness essentially and this is even a demonstrable assertion to extents. I have, in fact, personally witnessed this rung of consciousness in action and can attest to the fact that it's no place to raise your kids. Others might point to hidden genetic memories linking back into primordial first-beginnings of universe itself...thus whole classes of archetypes both exceedingly ancient and exceedingly strange to our normal sense of things...Lovecraftian "Ancient Ones" and so on... This would seem to be a much cleaner take on so-called qliphoth, so much so that I am not even convinced it is proper qliphoth at all.

So I am hesitant to rest on what poor tradition alone might have to say since I cannot see where these kinds of questions have really been dealt with thoroughly enough to warrant any sound conclusions from there. I think that these are complicated questions that may not have easy answers no matter what. This is typically where personal experimentation rises to the occasion and there are pros and cons to this as well since no one can really be certain if this is a profitable area of investigation until it has been fairly soundly investigated. I think Neshamah's question is a reasonable one in general and would like to hear some answer to this as well. At the same time, I recognize that some things can only be answered on a sort of "because it's there" sort of basis. I am not so sure that such an answer demonstrates any compelling prioritization defense in a world beset with many real problems in real time screaming out for real and viable solutions...which sort of leads us into another sort of question...that of defining what the so-called "great work" is (and is not) about. Or, if we are already a little fed up with the rhetoric, what the proper business of any magus might or might not amount to relative to the world itself.

m1thr0s

[BrotherM]

Dear Neshamah & m1thr0s,

Our understandings are alinged, I am happy to use the Grant definitions as mine are not common and may cause confusion. I have a lot of respect for Grants work, well, as much as I can understand, but then I am more of a "jump in and see" kind of magickian.

You mentioned two ways to the Shells, Yesod and Da'ath and yes these exist. There are also other places in the tree where the Shells touch which I call the "Hidden Paths" and these are nasty places which are very unique. The most common method I use is through Yesod as I am most familiar with the energies of "the path under the moon". Definately not a place for a holiday ;)

As for the day-to-day uses of the Qlippothis energies, I found the Nightside initiatory experience essential in fully grasping not only my place in the universe, but also putting the whole Tree of Life experience into context. In addition, when you get to the lower rungs on the Nightside tree, it evokes very primal memories. Alchemaically, it is essential to know the wild beast to properly tame the wild beast. It may sound extreme, but being the king of beasts not only lets you tame the wild beast, it lets you intergrate properly that raw primal power in practical workings.

On the great work, I think 50% of it is to even understand what the term means to the magickian. We are in different places and even though ultimately we all walk the same road, we are at different parts of it.

You must forgive me, because now I am going to sound like an idiot, but I firmly believe, from all of my 22 years of magickal practice that being human is further advanced than being an angel or demon. Think of it like this, Light Side beings lack free will, but have great power. The power flows from the Divine and as such these beings are like the divine. Nightside beings have free will, are generally controlable by employing Lightside beings implying that they are less powerful. Potentially, but they (Night side beings) have free will and so need to exist and choose in themselves. I believe that Night side beings are still connect to the divine, but through different means, ultimately being more independent and thus more advanced than Light Side beings. We on the third hand are even further removed from the Divine, so much so that we need to consume all elements (Air, Water, Warmth, Earth (food)) via external means to exist at all. We are weak and frail and hang onto life in a constant battle to survive. BUT we have the largest extent of free will in that we can learn and grow. I believe that once we were Angelic beings and having bathed for long enough in the Divine light we were given licence to "Fall" (How can it be possible to go against the true Divine WILL?). Once fallen, we bathed in darkness and indulgance, like a kid in a candy store we indulged in our free will and chaos reigned. The will can only be indulged for so long and eventually I believe we incarnated for the single purpose of unifying all that has gone before. So to me, the Great Work is to re-walk the paths of our previous existances, to unit the Higher (Light Side) and Lower (Dark Side) selves and absorb them into our physical conciousness. It is only in this, physical world that true duality can exist and so only here that we can bring Light and Dark together and become more than human. To do this, we need to walk the dark paths and become dark, walk the light paths and become light and then claw back sanity and balance by force of our magickal Will.

Sorry for the long post, I don't usually talk about the results of my magickal work.

BrotherM

[m1thr0s]

that all made perfect sense to me BrotherM.
I like the bit about "context"...I think that's right on target with my own dealings with these realms thus far...

I am still leaning in the direction of feeling that the Tree of Death proper has a higher functionality than Qliphoth alone...but this may perhaps be something to explore at another time...

edit: one thing I will diclose regarding this, and it's not a finished thought-process or anything...something I am still sorting out. There is a distinct relationship between the ideas of "Completion" and "Death" at the highest levels, and it has been said "Death is the Crown of All" etc...all referencing this general connection I think. Since I have come to understand the Tetractys as a variant form of the ToL and have good reason to believe that Abrahadabra is a vital key to Completion itself, I have been left with the nagging sensation that the Tetractys presents us with the equivalence of a so-called Tree of Death. So you can perhaps see that my interest in this terminology is not a passing thing. I have a strong suspicion that it is a very important principle that we are perhaps only just beginning to gain a handle on...

m1thr0s

[Neshamah]

I realize that Grant says that one may only access the "Primal" part of humankind through the Nightside Tree ;) , but I disagree. My own experience is that the "Primal" can be accessed (from the Dayside Tree) through The Devil, through The Hermit (more difficult), and through The Fool. As far as I have been able to determine, these are true "racial memories" apart from the 'influence' of ANY level of the Tarot as a system. Experiencing one's self as an animal in a "racial memory" is not something anyone is likely to forget - whether once approaches it from the Dayside Devil, or through a part of the Nightside Tree.

Perhaps I'm missing something here; but I don't really think so. I think we are talking about oranges and oranges, we are just approaching those oranges from different directions on the "compass." At least that's how I see it. If I'm missing something, please point it out for me.

Interesting discussion, BTW.

Love, Light, and Peace,

Neshamah

[BrotherM]

I don't really understand what Grant says to be honest, perhaps if he spoke in words less than 8 syllables I would actually read his books cover to cover. Night Side of Eden was a good book, this thread will make me revisit it I think.

I think it ispossible to access the primal side without using either tree, but I honestly don't think it is possible to Master it without using both.

Neshamah, I think maybe it will help if I explain my understanding of Balance. My understanding is of two distinct kinds of Balance. Type 1 is Equilibriated Balance (EB) where balance is obtained by harmonising present forces. This is the intended result of grounding or bannishing rituals and in mundain terms is similar to a justice scale. EB is defined by stillness and calmness and in nature is quite hard to witness. The second type of balance is balance caused by conflict (CB) of opposing forces. This is prevalent in nature, for instance, there exists a state of balance in a forest eco system, where life grows and is destroyed by fire. Fire is a bringer of death and destruction but is essential to continued forest life. CB is also the state in which our ever changing universe is in balance, like a pendulum, swing between darkness and light. Perhaps the best example of CB is Tzim Tzum.

IME the ToL can be used to obtain EB very effectively, because the majority of the energies in the ToL are harmonised. This gives those energies great Potential energy but virtually no Kinetic energy. The Qlippoth on the other hand is chaotic and is pure Kinetic. Using just the ToL is like lining up Dominos and injecting the ToD energy is that one Chaotic event that knocks a few dominos over and starts the energy moving.

And that brings us to my intentions. I want to use this Qlippothic energy to create magickal tools that are, in many ways, alive with their own energy. If the Qabalistic definition of God is "Pressure", then a tool which helps me in my present state of incarnation create my own piece of pressure is a powerful magickal instrument indeed.

I feel that the Qlippoth is so understood because 99% of magick material available is, "The beginners guide to..." type stuff, mostly because magick is an initiatory experience and as I am finding now, very hard to express in words.

[m1thr0s]

The Qlippoth on the other hand is chaotic and is pure Kinetic. Using just the ToL is like lining up Dominos and injecting the ToD energy is that one Chaotic event that knocks a few dominos over and starts the energy moving. This is very compelling and very well said. It also goes right to the heart of the controversy regarding qliphoth though. Some feel very strongly that qliphoth itself cannot and should not be equated with "chaos" at all...that we are instead looking at entropic process...looking at putrefaction, to be blunt. Certainly this is one of life's integral processes but it may not be accurate to liken it to "chaos" at all...

And for myself, I am not so sure...certainly there is a kind of chaos going on there. That it is a pure chaos? I find that a little hard to swallow... I admit to having a nobler view of chaos than some, but even so, being as brutally exact as I can be I am not so convinced that qliphoth and chaos are synonymous terms at all...

m1thr0s

[BrotherM]

Is the Qlippoth rotting or is it the engine that rots? Is the Qlippoth potentially a process of decay that ToL energies need to go through to return to the source? I have no idea, but very very interesting points m1thr0s.

As for chaos, depends on your definition of chaos, which is why this type of argument is so bloody hard, especially over an internet forum with written words. You (meaning everybody) can't hope to express what even simple concepts are or aren't and when you try and define something as esoteric as the Qlippoth then it is impossible. Words are a bitch, especially when suitable ones do not exist (one reason Grant is so damn hard to read).

Put most basically, the combination of Qlippothic and ToL energy I feel will generate a synergistic power, not in the standard sense, but in the sense that the conflict will generate a new kind of energy that will be more powerful than both counted as individuals. Like ocean currents meeting.

The problem is how to capture both energies in a tool?

There is more...

BrotherM

[Luciftias]

I just found this thread and read through the posts. I have done very little study of the Qlippoth, however I'm not totally ignorant of the subject. I've picked up a bit of info here and there over the years. I know just enough to cause myself harm, as they say. haha.

Before I get into my main point, I'd just like to point out that in alchemy, our work begins with death and decay. Alchemical work with plants and herbs (often equated with the originally broad term "spagyrics" by modern speakers on the subject) for example, starts out with fermentation of the plant matter. Alchemical work in the mineral realm also starts out with a "putrefaction" process. Not saying that the nightside of the tree equates to death and decay. Just saying that you couldn't have alchemy without putrefaction.

To my main point, the Tree of Life is supposed to be a model of reality. It attempts to both compartmentalize the universe into categories, while at the same time recognizing a great deal of interconnection between these categories. It's layout also attempts to explain other facets of reality such as the sequence of the creative process and types of experiences that are brought about through attaining various trance states. The Tree of Life is a map, it isn't what actually exists out there. I mean, there is no literal Tree of Life out there with actual spheres that we can occupy and travel between. It's a symbolic construct that we can use to better manipulate what is symbolized.

It seems to me, that adding a "Nightside" to our map of reality is an attempt to
incorporate an understanding of the "Shadow" architecture. I mean, just think about it for a second: If the Tree of Life describes the body of Adam Kadmon, who's body does the Nightside Tree describe? Seems to me that it must be Adam Kadmon's shadow. I'm basically just talking this out as I think of it, but the ideas have been slowly percolating in my mind for years now.

The image that pops into my head when I think of the Qlippoth is of various mollusks or shellfish with sparks of Light trapped inside. Ideally that hard shell can be cracked and the Light released. Just occurred to me that a great symbol for this would be an oyster with a pearl in it. This idea may be way off, but from what I can tell, it's very close to how the brilliant Qabalist Rabbi Issac Luria understood the Qlippoth. Also, in my own journeys within, a lot of my own estranged sub-personalities have appeared to me as antagonistic entities with exoskeletons.

In Darkness Visible,
Jeremy Crow

[m1thr0s]

great posts all around...my head seems to be spinning with a whole range of different ideas on this whole thing...

I definitely agree that even if we are dealing with something more akin to putrefaction in qliphoth, that hardly dismisses it as useless.

I am not so sure I can agree that the Tree of Life is not a literal "something" although perhaps I am not understanding the reference (as intended). At the level of energy at least, this "map" is very similar to Chakras or Chi maps etc, all of which are plotting a very literal "something"...but at the level of energy itself, both physical and mental.

Lots to think about with this one.

m1thr0s

[Neshamah]

Is the Qlippoth rotting or is it the engine that rots?


I believe that it is both. Many get "hung up" examining that which is rotting and forget that there is a 'process' happening all around them. That 'process' is putrifaction, as has been said; further, it is the 'process' of dying by degrees, forever. It is the 'process' of "unbecoming" (just as the ToL is in the 'process' of "becoming").

[m1thr0s, I believe that 'chaos' is on the other end of "unbecoming." It isn't on the other end of 'death,' since 'death' is a natural 'process.' But, when something has "unbecome" it is in a state of 'chaos;' it is then outside of the 'processes' of 'life' and 'death.' ;) ]

So BrotherM, if I understand you correctly, you want to tap into the 'process' of "unbecoming" and pair it with the 'process' of "becoming," and then use the combined eneriges to empower your tools. Does that describe what you are planning?

Just trying to understand,

Neshamah

Edit: I didn't see your post, m1thr0s, before I posted this. I agree that the ToL does refer to a "something." I believe that it is energy, both inside us and outside us. I've spent way too much time in my life working with these 'energies' to deny their existence.

[BrotherM]

Neshamah,

I agree, the ToL energies are "real" in the most basic sense of the word (with out pissing off the subjective reality view that I do not subscribe to).

Want I want to do is combine these energies in a tool to study the effect. Then I want to complete the process within myself as I see it is meant to be, once studying the effect in my magickal tools.

Like everybody else, I have a really hard time reconciling the two energies, I am more working on a staged approach ;)

BrotherM

[m1thr0s]

personally, I feel like the Tree of Life itself inherently encourages a more expanded approach to things than is available within the confines of its own internal rhetoric. this doesn't hit everybody all at once or in quite the same way necessarily but it is a pattern I have definitely noted...particularly among those who would appear to have studied it the most.

I believe that instinct is a valid one but it places one out on a limb even to explore it, let alone assert any kind of conclusions in this regards.

We are perhaps beginning to stray from the original question but I don't see any avoiding it. returning to the idea of consecrating a weapon on both sides of the aisle, my general feeling is that the truth will out in all such matters and it is the magus's job to push his limits...to push the envelope itself as far as he/she can in the dedicated pursuit of a greater personal authenticity & a more enduring grade of wisdom. People who might respond to this idea with shock or alarm are simply parroting what they imagine they might have learned from books they might have even read. We play a dangerous game or we don't play at all I think...even though we might think we play it safe and sound...the harsh reality is always just around the bend. So to hell with this kind of milktoast mediocrity...if you've got a bold experiment...give that puppy a spin.

There are things you can do I think to afford yourself a certain leverage in the case that things go badly and you wind up dealing with a matter-antimatter sort of crisis on your hands (something i seriously doubt, but one can never be entirely certain). One good strategy might be to always include some third element in the equation deemed authorized to stand in as mediator in the case of violent collision. This is a personal choice but it should be something that stands aloof from either standard i think and is uniquely capable of universal creation/destruction on its own terms and merits. For me the Tetractys would suffice this "third position" for instance, but there are other possibilities as well. even wild-eyed tantric alchemists are not oblivious to the requrements of sound ritual magick protocols...:cool:

m1thr0s

[BrotherM]

hey good post m1thr0s!

I agree, time to just do it and see what happens, I'll plan out my stuff and see what I come up with and potentially post the layout here. The thing is, I am a bit of a purist and I think that the desired result is attainable only through a violent collision. Given my approach to magick, I've lived through those in the past but it can be a rocky road. The closest I have come to doing something like this is my Golem experiement using the Qabalistic permutations, which got me very "on the edge".

BrotherM

[Neshamah]

Now that I know what it is you are planning, maybe I can help. I'll need to research through my journals and notes, but I may have something that will help. I know I have something that will enable you to "pull the plug" on this thing if it gets "out of hand."

I'll post as soon as I find what I'm looking for.

Love, Light, and Peace,

Neshamah

[m1thr0s]

I agree, time to just do it and see what happens, I'll plan out my stuff and see what I come up with and potentially post the layout here. The thing is, I am a bit of a purist and I think that the desired result is attainable only through a violent collision. Given my approach to magick, I've lived through those in the past but it can be a rocky road. The closest I have come to doing something like this is my Golem experiement using the Qabalistic permutations, which got me very "on the edge".

well I'd love to see what you come up with BrotherM as I can easily imagine so would others here. I understand the confrontational approach to things...so much so that I almost have no understanding of any other approach I think. For me the most expedient thing is always to bang the rocks together and just sort of see what happens. One learns to be defensive about all of this though...just like any other dangerous sport I think. You take the necessary precautions...you check your ropes...you test your harness...and then you make the jump...not the other way around.

m1thr0s

[BrotherM]

Hi Guys,

Neshamah, I would very much appreciate any material that you have, it is always so useful to share that sort of stuff. m1thr0s, I hear you about the safety first, as a rock climber, the ropes and harness example rings true as well! I know I can do this, I also know it will be a bumpy ride and help is always welcome :D

Many thanks,

BrotherM

[Neshamah]

Dear BrotherM,

I don't know how familiar you are with Gematria, but I've discovered some numerical keys that might help you with what you are planning.

First, the Hebrew word for Life is Chayyim, which equal 628.

Next, the Hebrew word for Death is Maveth, which equals 446.

Subtract Death from Life and the number left is 182.

Half of 182 is 91.

This is significant in that 182 is the difference between Life and Death. As a number it tells us that Unity (1) acted upon by Splendor (8 - Hod, the 8th Sephirah) reveals Wisdom (2 - Chokmah, the 2nd Sephirah). Also, the number 8 equals Ahab (Love in Hebrew). Given that 182 ends in 2, it calls us to divide the number 182 by 2 getting 91.

The number 91 is one of two keys to your operation. Some Hebrew words that equal 91 are Angel, Amen!, and Kamael (the Archangel of Mars, and of Geburah, the 5th Sephirah).

Using the NAEQ the number 91 means forsaken, leavings, outcast, servant, sighing, veiled, and within (and others). The number 182 means restriction (and many others - you should explore this).

There are many other correlations with 91 and 182 that you should look into yourself. But, these are the real keys to what you are doing.

I hope this has helped you. If I can answer any other questions or be of any other help, let me know.

Love, Light, and Peace Profound,

Neshamah

PS: Four other numbers of interest are 1074, 537, 378, and 179. One hint, 378 is the Mystic Number of Path 27 (Netzach to Hod) which corresponds to the Hebrew letter Peh, which is the Path of Mars.