Ingvi Freyr=God of Nature?

[Nuhad418]

The gifts of Ingvi Freyr are many. Freyr is known as “God of the World,” and according to Ingeborg Nordén, “The word for "world" does NOT mean the earth or the environment. (If that were what Snorri had meant, the Old Norse would have called Freyr _heimsins goð_, not _veraldar goð_!) The word _veröld_ literally translates as "man-age" or "human lifetime". ("God of everyday life" or "god of the here and now" would be more accurate, though less formal, translations!) Those tie in with your comments.”


Hello everyone,

I came across the above citation from this (http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/Paths%20To%20The%20Gods/Freyr%20Article.htm) site. My, very limited, experience (on a personal level and in study) with Frey indicates that he is very much a nature god (for want of a better term). Seems to me that though Snorri may not have used the term "heimsins goð" we should not dissmiss the nature connection. If Snorri did mean "man-age" we have to look at that period of time...sex, hunting, planting, and healing are all parts of the "man-age" AND they are directly related (then as now) with the natural world. While I cannot argue issues of language (being sadly unilingual) it seems limited to disconnect Frey from the natural world. The world in Snorri's time and certainly before were directly connected with nature. There could not be a disconnect from it like we see today. So, while Frey may be "God of the World" it is my assumption that "world" includes nature and the environment. Comments?

[feranaja]

I thought he was the lead guitarist for some 80s heavy metal hair band...

[m1thr0s]

I know so little of all of this. Are we talking about this Snorri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson)?

If so, and if the Wiki article is right regarding his theory of the gods of this culture, then it would stand to reason that he would have linked "the world" and the natural world together in his own mind at least.

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

Hello everyone,

I came across the above citation from this (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejordsvin/Paths%20To%20The%20Gods/Freyr%20Article.htm) site. My, very limited, experience (on a personal level and in study) with Frey indicates that he is very much a nature god (for want of a better term). Seems to me that though Snorri may not have used the term "heimsins goð" we should not dissmiss the nature connection. If Snorri did mean "man-age" we have to look at that period of time...sex, hunting, planting, and healing are all parts of the "man-age" AND they are directly related (then as now) with the natural world. While I cannot argue issues of language (being sadly unilingual) it seems limited to disconnect Frey from the natural world. The world in Snorri's time and certainly before were directly connected with nature. There could not be a disconnect from it like we see today. So, while Frey may be "God of the World" it is my assumption that "world" includes nature and the environment. Comments?


I really think that the aesir (and vanir) represent man's manipulation and working of the environment rather than nature in it's raw form. IMO it's erroneous to make any separation between the 'natural' world and the world of man (by default unnatural). I really do NOT believe that Frejr is a 'nature' god in the way that the Greenman or Cernennos kind of archetype is though.
The Norse had no god of the wildwood archetype. Why? Mostly because the 'wildwood' unaltered/in it's raw form at those latitudes will kill you dead. The raw forces of nature/time/creation are better illustrated in the Jontar than the Asa or Vana. The Aesir/Vanir constant struggle against the Jontun folk for survival neatly extrapolates upon the idea.

[m1thr0s]

The Norse had no god of the wildwood archetype. Why? Mostly because the 'wildwood' unaltered/in it's raw form at those latitudes will kill you dead.
I'm a little geographically impaired TF...could you break that down just a little more? I suspect I am not the only one who doesn't quite get that bit...

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

I apologize for the delay in response, but we have been discussing this for four days now, double-checking our sources, trying to figure out where we could have missed something that would make someone associate Frej with nature gods. I would have to say we didn't miss anything that would lead to that association.

First, the idea that Gullinbursti (Frej's golden boar) ties him with nature is mistaken, in that Gullinbursti is not a natural animal (or even really an animal) but is a magical creation of the svart-alf (dwarves). Frej is most often associated with the sea (as in sailing and sailing lanes - his ship Skíðblaðnir) and horses (which are often metaphorically linked to ships) and to peace and prosperity.

The closest one could link Frej with nature is in man's interaction with nature in order to tame it, and take from it the things man needs to survive. In a place with a growing season that is at most 3 months this is no small task. Frej is also indicative of man's desire to control nature - consider that he wanted so badly to have the Jotun Gerđ for himself that he gave up his sword to win her, (and then is slain at Ragnarok for want of a sword.)

While the Jotun (who are a personification of nature) can change their shape at will, the gods all need some sort of robe or amulet or other magical device to shapeshift (with the exception of Loki, who is actually a Jotun in the first place.) With the Jotun are the wights, the spirits of rocks, plants, rivers, streams, glaciers, etc. So what we have are things that are incredibly 'tricksy' that represent a natural world that is at the very least tricksy (temperature drops of 40° F or more are not all that uncommon in the early Spring and late Fall) and often fatally dangerous.

I'm a little geographically impaired TF...could you break that down just a little more? I suspect I am not the only one who doesn't quite get that bit...

m1thr0s

Think 60° (and further) North. (Marked in the red circle of the attached image - image courtesy of the CIA Factbook.) Arctic environments can kill ya' quick. Even in Summer, if you try to travel the tundra unprotected the mosquitoes are so bad that they can actually cause death due to blood loss in a matter of hours.

[Talkingfox]

I actually would extend the influence a bit further south than what is
technically considered arctic. Southern Sweden fr'instance.

I'm not so sure that Frejr is about so much the controlling aspect that you mentioned and more the actual desire aspect. What is it that man desires and the passion, drive and inspiration that fuels that.
I've not seen anything anywhere that implies that Frejr has any control whatsoever over the Landsvaettir.

[Nuhad418]

Thaks everyone for your input. There is a great deal of information to sift through and that is always good. I also like the idea of Ratatosk and Talkingfox pouring over some runic tome, discussing reality all the while asking themselves...why don't we just ignore Nuhad?

;)

[Talkingfox]

Thaks everyone for your input. There is a great deal of information to sift through and that is always good. I also like the idea of Ratatosk and Talkingfox pouring over some runic tome, discussing reality all the while asking themselves...why don't we just ignore Nuhad?

;)

Yeah uh huh...ignore Nuhad :laugh:. Actually Nuhad I really appreciate your questions and comments. It's seriously requiring that I get my shit wired tighter and make my communication clearer. And I love anything that makes me examine and question the status quo...especially my own! :yes:

I've been pondering the complexities of the Asa/Vana (and boy are they) and I think I've come up with a pretty good way of expanding ones viewpoint when it comes to these guys. Every godform has an opposing Jotun form, thus the very prescribed battles at Ragnarök.
The Jotun are the very things that the Asa are made of...but without control. So to examine and understand the Jontar is to understand the Aesir/Vanir at a core and primordial level. No wonder they tend to cancel each other out.


As far as Frejr goes...I really don't think one can even begin to define the energy there without looking into the nature of the Ljusalf themselves. It's like the whole of the sphere is supposed to be just barely above the literal surface of the earth proper, just as the Swartalf are supposed to be just below the "skin of the earth'". The Swartalf are the force responsible for the actual physical fruits of the earth and of ideas made physical. This removes Frejr from the actual physical/offspring/ harvest aspect of fertility and into the realm of the potential or idea.
I find it interesting to note that for all the f***ing about that Frejr/Freja do that neither has offspring.....hmmmm. It is perpetually Summer in Frejr's realm , never moving to the end of the agricultural cycle in the Autumn, which is more Thor and Sif's thing.

[Nuhad418]

Yeah uh huh...ignore Nuhad :laugh:. Actually Nuhad I really appreciate your questions and comments. It's seriously requiring that I get my shit wired tighter and make my communication clearer. And I love anything that makes me examine and question the status quo...especially my own! :yes:

I've been pondering the complexities of the Asa/Vana (and boy are they) and I think I've come up with a pretty good way of expanding ones precision when it comes to these guys. Every godform has an opposing Jotun form, thus the very prescribed battles at Ragnarök.
The Jotun are the very things that the Asa are made of...but without control. So to examine and understand the Jontar is to understand the Aesir/Vanir at a core and primordial level. No wonder they tend to cancel each other out.


As far as Frejr goes...I really don't think one can even begin to define the energy there without looking into the nature of the Ljusalf themselves. It's like the whole of the sphere is supposed to be just barely above the literal surface of the earth proper, just as the Swartalf are supposed to be just below the "skin of the earth'". The Swartalf are the force responsible for the actual physical fruits of the earth and of ideas made physical. This removes Frejr from the actual physical/offspring/ harvest aspect of fertility and into the realm of the potential or idea.
I find it interesting to note that for all the f***ing about that Frejr/Freja do that neither has offspring.....hmmmm. It is perpetually Summer in Frejr's realm , never moving to the end of the agricultural cycle in the Autumn, which is more Thor and Sif's thing.

It's funny, although I have read most of what you and Ratatosk have said elsewhere (either through books or hours of surfing) I still hold a "wiccan" or "neo-pagan" (all goddesses are one goddess idea) bias when it comes to reading the Norse gods and cosmology. Of course the landvaettir and related nature spirits take precedence over Frejr. Man am I slow. Only by fusing or collapsing aspects of the Norse deities and cosmology can you claim something like Freyj is a nature god. I'm starting to understand why cranky Asatru don't like to be lumped under Neo-Paganism. Well this has helped with shaking up my own status quo! :laugh:

[Talkingfox]

The landvaettir are essential to the Nordic View. There tends to be an attitude of dealing with live things (which includes rocks mountains rivers and such, thus is closer to animistic than not in the Nordic ) as a series of individuals to be dealt with as suchrather than an abstraction painted with a broader brush.
Even the ljusalf can't be easily pigeonholed as to function/alignment as the Seelie/UnSeelie are. The are what they are on any given day just like everyone else.

So much for working with a script....

[Nuhad418]

The landvaettir are essential to the Nordic View. There tends to be an attitude of dealing with live things (which includes rocks mountains rivers and such, thus is closer to animistic than not in the Nordic ) as a series of individuals to be dealt with as suchrather than an abstraction painted with a broader brush.
Even the ljusalf can't be easily pigeonholed as to function/alignment as the Seelie/UnSeelie are. The are what they are on any given day just like everyone else.

So much for working with a script....

Yay! Fox is back :laugh: Why does that sound like I'm a 13 year old girl? I'm starting to realise how vital the landvaettir are to the Norse cosmology. Nothing can be taken for granted in this worldview can it? :o_O:

[Talkingfox]

Nothing can be taken for granted in this worldview can it? :o_O:


Nope. But consider that the whole system is a allegory for the very real and very physical dangers of the world.
Say someone takes it for granted that it's safe to travel in May...packs for springtime and gets a foot of snow dumped on them in the process (and yes I've seen it happen). What happens in a less technological society? One dies with the taste of what Freya's really about on their lips. So much for the temperate zones' archetype of the sweet gentle spring maiden, eh? :eek:

And yes the forms are very complex as well as mutable....but what that is alive isn't, really?