Q&A Thread

[Frater Yechidah]

This thread is for questions regarding the classwork here. From time to time I will post a question received through email, PM, or other means, and supply the answer with it. Use this thread instead of the actual lecture threads please.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Anibis]

You mentioned that the Enochian Angels have an agenda... what is their agenda? In general what is the purpose of enochian magic? From the 'call of the watchtowers' I get a very 'anti-civilization' vibe. This was what made me feel that Enochan might be a pretty laoded system... Also from Liber 418 I sensed some stuff that was 'not quite right'. Where can I expect Enochian to take me?
-Anibis

[Frater Yechidah]

Ave Anibis,

I am somewhat hesitant in answering your question, because it caused a lot of "ruckus" on another forum, when some members misinterpreted the answer. However, I will try my best to answer this with as much clarity as is possible.

Their agenda appears to be to cause the Apocalypse, or, at least, to carry out assigned "duties" that are part and parcel of that event. Of course, we have to be careful with how we interpret this (which is where all the trouble came from last time), as this "End of the World" is not necessarily what we imagine from the movies - fire and brimstone, with Satan coming to rule the earth, etc. It is more like the reality of the Death card in the Tarot: the end of one way of life and the beginning of another. Thus, it is, in essence, the procession of Ages. We could view this as us entering the Age of Horus promised by Crowley (and others).

When reading the Call of the Aethyrs, it's important to note that God is talking in it. You are reciting the words of God Himself. Of course, Enochian is very Gnostic, and it appears that this "God" is the Creator, yes, but not really the true God, who is much less "animate". Given this, we could possibly view this figure as the Demiurge, and thus the goal of the Angels is to "loosen the hold" the Demiurge has on the world, by enlisting Mankind in a kind of "rebellion" (through spiritual awakening, not violence) to break out from the Cosmos ("System") and reunite with the true God (who they would also want to reunite with, instead of being bound to this Cosmos likewise). It is a shared agenda for Ascension, which cannot be achieved without each others help.

Enochian can be used to gain knowledge about yourself and the universe. It was originally withdrawn from man for abuse of it (turning it into goetics, etc., as the Angels claim), and because it is too powerful, with man lacking the responsibility for that power. At this stage, however, the Angels seem to believe that mankind must be exposed to this kind of power in order to make its next stage of growth, and believe that we need to become mature enough to use it (though, as you can imagine, many won't). So, what you can expect, provided you take your time and don't abuse the system, is spiritual transformation and achievement of the "Great Work". Energy-wise, expect at least ten times the energy you're familiar with from other rituals, and expect this energy to linger, and, indeed, for some of it to be immune to all forms of banishing. Given this, I'd advise not using a family room for workings (such as a living room).

I hope this answers your question somewhat. This is not the only viewpoint of the purpose of these Angels, of course, but most views centre around the Apocalypse (which actually means "Revelation", not death and destruction). A lot of the system is dependent on the Book of the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the last book of the Bible, but again, I believe it's wise to "be a Gnostic" and interpret these things metaphorically.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Anibis]

Okay, thanks for the answer. Not for the feint of heart, eh...
-Anibis

[Frater Yechidah]

Not at all ;)

The following is a common question which needs to be addressed early on:

Is Enochian Dangerous?

To start the ball rolling, here is Fr. Neshamah's concise response (with an excellent analogy, which you'll begin to learn with practice):

It is, if one isn't properly prepared. Dealing with the Angelic Energies is like working with High Voltage Cabling -- one must be trained in order to do it safely.I think most people who have studied or practiced this system will agree that Enochian Magick is powerful and dangerous. If I remember correctly, Crowley stated that the problem with Enochian is that it works too well (i.e. you get more result for less intent, though that result can be chaotic and destructive if not properly channeled [with the appropriate intent]). He did not complete the majority of his Aethyr Work until he was in very high grades (again, if I remember correctly, he couldn't pass BAG [or another Aethyr "down the ladder"] at some point until he completed higher initiations), and even then, some of his accounts are dubious, to say the least.

Remember - there is good reason why the Golden Dawn had its Enochian practices reserved for Adepts. Without appropriate training and preparation (like that prior gradework), you simply won't have a strong enough "vessel" to channel the sheer volume of energy raised in an Enochian working.

I'd also suggest being wary of people who make claims like skrying all 30 Aethyrs in a week or anything like that - energy might have been stirred alright, but there is always room for illusion and deception, so I'd have my doubts they even managed to skry one. :cool:

My own response to the question of the "dangerous" nature of Enochian work can be found in the FAQ on the O.'.S.'.D.'.L.'.'s website, as follows:

10. Is Enochian (and the work of the O.'.S.'.D.'.L.'. specifically) dangerous?

Yes, but not necessarily any more so than learning to drive a car. If you follow the proper recommendations, guidelines, and safety procedures, and, most importantly DO NOT RUSH, you should not encounter many problems. However, most likely you will be forced to confront your "inner demons", so the work certainly won't be easy.I hope this addresses this question. Feel free to ask some more :)

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Radiant Star]

I'd also suggest being wary of people who make claims like skrying all 30 Aethyrs in a week or anything like that - energy might have been stirred alright, but there is always room for illusion and deception, so I'd have my doubts they even managed to skry one.
Ah, so glad you brought this point up!

I went to a workshop a couple of years ago and a group of us were being led into scrying the aethyrs. We mades notes after each aethyr and some people got the 'key' and some didn't, so I presumed that we were all to some extent scrying these things. I think I read on the old MoQ site that it was unlikely and now I am seeing this again, so were we being mislead into believing we were doing something we weren't? or are there different kinds of scrying the aethyrs? or were we able to do it because we were in a group?

I know so little about this that I was quite willing to believe we were doing what we thought we were since the leader is a well known magickian and I believe head of some kind of order and in fact has books published on magick.

Could you clarify a bit on this please?

[Frater Yechidah]

The main issue here is perhaps in term "skrying" - it's probably the most commonly-used word when it comes to Enochian, but it's important to note that there's a difference between skrying (in the proper sense of the word) an Aethyr and actually entering the Aethyr and thus raising your "consciousness" (etc.) to that next level.

In many ways, you can skry anything and see something, which could be spot on or way off the mark. You can skry the Aethyrs and possibly see the lessons associated with them. But has it impacted your life in any way? Have you learned the lessons and been transformed by them? It's the difference between looking and doing, as it were.

Of course, group work on an Aethyr may make it easier for some to enter it. The combined energies all concentrating on the same (or similar) thing will undoubtedly aid the process, but it obviously doesn't guarantee anything, and I'd still have my doubts about whether or not someone can walk away from a seminar saying "I'm in TEX now", as opposed to saying, perhaps more truthfully, "I've seen TEX". Follow?

I hope this answers your question. Feel free to quiz further.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Radiant Star]

Thank you very much for clearing this up for me, it has been something I have thought about for a long time now.

[Oroc]

I am now memorizing the alphabeth. Loved the Tablets/Watchtowers. I guess Hierarquies will be clear when we start some practical exercises and studying some examples (not to Practice Enochian but to understand it).

Anyway, I'm loving it and want more NOW!:laugh:

EDIT: My questions are about the warning: Enochian Magick is very powerful and dangerous when used unready; considering that, when will I know that I'm ready to start the practice?
Even if I have a very deep self-awareness I can never know that I'm finnaly ready for something I never experienced right?
It will always be a risk right?

Oroc

[Frater Yechidah]

To some extent it will always be a risk, but you can minimalise that risk by making sure you have more experience in other areas of Western magick. If, for example, you cannot banish well, then it is unwise to start using Enochian (or, indeed, to work with the Goetia and many other forms of magick), because banishing is a basic "safety tool" that the magician should have at their disposal before commencing more advanced work. You will also need to build up your "storehouse of symbols" (via Qabalah/Kabbalah and other traditions), which will help you considerably in understanding the message of the Angels, not to mention your own subconscious mind. Tying in with this, part of the goal of magick, in a theurgic sense, is to "know thyself" - when you know yourself, you will have a better sense of whether or not you're ready for more advanced work. You can know if you're ready for something you've never experienced (who says you never experienced it in a previous life?), but if that fails, you can definitely know in the early stages of practice whether or not you are "cut out for this". Having a mentor would, perhaps, be the best option, but not the only one.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Anibis]

Could you comment on the fact that 13 and 20 seem to be key numbers in the Enochian system? I find this interesting in light of an 'apocalyptic agenda', since these are the same key numbers used by the Maya, another system which has ties to apocalyptic energy... has anyone worked with this connection to your knowledge?
-Anibis

[Frater Yechidah]

Why do you believe 13 and 20 are key numbers in Enochian? To answer your question I will need to understand what you are basing this information on. There are many important numbers in Enochian, with 7 being, perhaps, the most common one.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Anibis]

Re-checking my sources, I realize it's less prominent than I thought, still it's there... 91 sub-aethers suggest a strong connection to the number 13, (Mystic sum), and 20 is the number of letter in the tablet of union. I had originally thought that there were 20 letters in the alphabet, but now I see there are 21... fair enough...
-Anibis

[sock]

Quick question,

Me being me, I kind of need an anchor or reference point.

I was recently directed towards 'fixed' stars in answer to a question unrelated to Enochian. It was interesting for me to find that the 'watchers' or archangels are represented by four distinct 'royal' stars;

Regulus (Raphael) -- North
Fomalhaut (Gabriel) -- South
Alderbaran (Michael) -- East
Antares (Oriel) -- West

Is there any correlation between stars and the Enochian system that you know of? (or is this one of those obvious questions where I need to do a little more research before posting).

[Frater Yechidah]

From memory (which isn't the most reliable of sources), I don't recall any definitive correlation of the stars with Enochian entities, but it could be there, hidden somewhere in the diaries. If not, you can easily relate the Solar Kings (called Elemental Kings in the G.'.D.'.) to the Elemental Archangels (BATAIVAH - Raphael - Regulus) and find appropriate stars that way. If I do find any distinct mention of the stars, I'll make sure to let you know. In ways, just because it isn't stated in the diaries doesn't mean the correlation doesn't exist or that it would be inaccurate or "forced".

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Fio Praeter Humanus]

In the latest installment of the lessons you mention the practice of "prefixing" the names with letters. Excuse my ignorance but I am more used to solomonic type systems.

In your example you say:
"If we take the Kerubic Angel of the Air of Air sub-angle, RZLA, we would prefix it with E - thus, ERZLA."

My question is, if you work with RZLA and ERZLA would they in fact be the same spirit or different altogether? Or in enochian is it more of a force rather than a spirit while this one is more defined?

[Frater Yechidah]

It's the same base spirit, but ERZLA is more "intelligent", as it were, and much more likely to be of help than his unprefixed variant. If I am not mistaken, however, the angels told Dee to prefix the name, so I think they never intended for people to work with the unprefixed form.

Generally-speaking, the more letters in the name, the more "intelligent" or "higher up" they are, barring a few exceptions (such as a five letter Kerub being higher in scale than a five letter Servient Angel).

I think the Golden Dawn might call the prefixed Kerubim the Kerubic Archangels. You could also use (as in the OSDL) Archkerubim, however.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Fio Praeter Humanus]

I think the Golden Dawn might call the prefixed Kerubim the Kerubic Archangels.

They do, but never elaborate on the differences between them, at least not in printed texts. So as a rule of thumb, always prefix the names from the tablets with the tablet of union or at least when dealing with the sub-angles?

[Frater Yechidah]

Only the sub-angles require prefixes, but yes, as a general rule of thumb, it's best to use the prefix. I've found this particularly notable when working with Cacodaemons, as the prefixed variant was much easier to "handle".

LLLSHJ,
Y.

[fr.novumorganum]

what exactly are the cacodaemons?

[Fio Praeter Humanus]

Any plans to continue the lessons?

[m1thr0s]

I need to know this as well...otherwise we should mark this class as closed I think.

m1

[Frater Yechidah]

Firstly, to (belatedly) answer Fr. N.O.'s question:

Cacodaemons are basal "entities". They have limited scope and intelligence (which is why they only have two letters to their name), and can be considered as a kind of "angelic larvae" (a term that Fr. VVV [Manjet from OF] employed). What this means is that these creatures are in an undeveloped form. It is only when the two letters of their name are joined with two more letters, creating a Servient Angel, that they come to a kind of fruition, acquiring intelligence and a broader scope of spirituality. "Caco" also means "evil", and "daemon" means "spirit" (subsequently misinterpreted to mean evil spirit without the "caco"), and these were named thus because they are considered to be the base, "corrupt", form of our desires, etc. Dee was told that they could be evoked, but that they should not be. Instead they should be bound within the magician, who is, in essence, a Great Table of their own.

As for the class itself, I intend (and have intended) to continue it, but have been a little preoccupied with other matters. I can't guarantee that I'll be posting regularly here, but there are many more topics I want to cover. Consider this a "long-term" thing, as it were, especially considering the limited interest.

If, however, you would like to close it, that's up to you.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[m1thr0s]

no, Fr Yechidah...certainly not if you still intend to add anything...as a closed class it would still be viewable but simply moved to another forum (not yet created) for closed classes...

there's no hurry...just making the rounds here...

m1

[fr.novumorganum]

thanks for the answer! I didn't know that and found it very informative.