The Cynic and Stoic Philosophers

[Naomi]

I wanted to talk about some of the ideas of the Cynic and Stoic schools of philosophy.

Cynicism

It is based on two major themes; eleutheria and autarkeia, or freedom and self-sufficiency. These two principles were the tools with which the Cynic philosophers determined the right kind of behavior. They believed in a return to a natural lifestyle where humans were not dependent on a system of laws and social institutions. They particularily held disdain for the wealthy happened to rely on slaves or servants to survive, viewing them as weak.

Many philosophers in ancient Greece sought to teach to a small highbrow group of elite audience members, whereas Cynics would crash large festivals and parties to engage as large an audience as possible in the dissemination of their ideas.

"Cynicism was the ancient Greek philosophy, primarily concerned with virtue, whose followers were known as "The Dog Philosophers."They believed virtue was the only necessity for happiness, and that it was entirely sufficient for attaining happiness. The Cynics followed this philosophy to the extent of neglecting everything not furthering their perfection of virtue and attainment of happiness, thus, the title 'Cynics', derived from the Greek word 'kuon', 'dog' in English, was assigned them because they lived like dogs —neglecting society, personal hygiene, family obligations, pursuing money, et cetera— to lead entirely virtuous, and, thus, happy lives ."

- Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stoicism

Cynic philosophy was later drawn upon by the proponents of Stoicism, who also agreed that happiness is not dependent upon material posessions. They valued logos as their central guiding pillar.

Stoicism was founded by the Cynic, Zeno of Citium.

"Nothing outside the will can hinder or harm the will; it can only harm itself. If then we accept this, and, when things go amiss, are inclined to blame ourselves, remembering that judgment alone can disturb our peace and constancy, I swear to you by all the gods that we have made progress."

- Epictetus, Stoic Philosopher

"For the Stoics, reason meant not only using logic, but also understanding the processes of nature—the logos, or universal reason, inherent in all things. Living according to reason and virtue, they held, is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe, in recognition of the common reason and essential value of all people. The four cardinal virtues of the Stoic philosophy are wisdom (Sophia), courage (Andreia), justice (Dikaiosyne), and temperance (Sophrosyne), a classification derived from the teachings of Plato."

Diogenes of Sinope

Diogenes is my favorite, mostly because of his antics but he has some good points about life as well. I also dislike Plato and he did as well, in fact he had luxury to insult the man in person. He was born in 412 B.C in Sinope, where he was later exiled for allegedly defacing coins. He was a critic of society and often succeeded in disturbing the population of Athens, sometimes by doing nothing more than going about his daily business.

He also met Alexander the Great. Alexander was said to have been delighted to discover the famous Diogenes of Sinope sunning himself presumably in the streets of Corinth, where he asked Diogenes if there was anything he could do for him. Diogenes only said something to the effect of "You're blocking my sun, stand aside."

Diogenes is also the first recorded person to have said, "I am a citizen of the whole world." profound then, in its implications in a world where citizenship dictated who or what you were.





References:

Michel Foucault, Parrhesiasts- Diogenes, The Cynic Philosophers and Their Techniques. May 5th, 2007 <http://foucault.info/documents/parrhesiasts/foucault.diogenes.en.html>


Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. May 5th, 2007 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoics>

tbc...

[Kuroyagi]

I think that especially the stoics and the sceptics had very good lessons on deconditioning and self analysis.

Plato neednt be viewed all that critical either: imagine him primarily as a poet (which he originally was) who had "discovered" a new "poetical" form for himself- and that was the dialogue. Those dialogues have very many layers and some, like a poem could be understood in an ethical, a social a literatry way and scholars are sometimes not clear what hes exactly teaching about cause hes teaching about more things simlutaneously. Also he was defending his new form not like a scientist is supposed to do (more objectively but with the zeal of a poet or a magician who wants to enwiden his own creation or "reality" bubble and envelop others in it.)

Diogenes is also cool, allegedly he said that: if a philoospher doesnt offend those whom he teaches hes not effective. lol..this means that he needs to touch the people at their very hearts so that they listen to him. The story with Alex isnt historical but you as a magician can do personal research of course/regress to akasha if you like of course..

I have written very much about this topic elsewhere some of it can be viewed here: http://occultforums.com/archive/index.php?t-5331.html

[Naomi]

Yeah Kuroyagi - deconditioning. I think we need Diogenes preaching 24/7 on TV these days. Shut down all other channels and just put him on.

I find it amusing to dislike Plato, because everyone thinks he was so brilliant. I think he was an idiot. He was a pedophile and promoted the idea that every male should pay to have sex with boys. Then he goes on to describe man as a "featherless biped" shyeah Plato, you just wish you were a velociraptor, you skank.

Also I don't agree with his view that the mental world was superior to the physical, there's no real sense in that. Diogenes gladly accepted the material world for what it was, and encouraged people to feel at home in it. Plato encouraged the opposite - to reside in the world of the mental. He seemed like a man very uncomfortable with reality.

Personally - just my opinion, mind you, I think Plato had ulterior motives that he didn't really expect to come to bear much fruit other than garnering him fame, but they were not borne of a selfless regard for mankind.

"He used to express his astonishment at the grammarians for being desirous to learn everything about the misfortunes of Ulysses, and being ignorant of their own. He used [to] also to say, "That the musicians fitted the strings to the lyre properly, but left all the habits of their soul ill-arranged." And, "That mathematicians kept their eyes fixed on the sun and moon, and overlooked what was under their feet." "That orators were anxious to speak justly, but not at all about acting so." Also, "That misers blamed money, but were preposterously fond of it." He often condemned those who praise the just for being superior to money, but who at the same time are eager themselves for great riches. He was also very indignant at seeing men sacrifice to the Gods to procure good health, and yet at the sacrifice eating in a manner injurious to health. He often expressed his surprise at slaves, who, seeing their masters eating in a gluttonous manner, still do not themselves lay hands on any of the eatables. He would frequently praise those who were about to marry, and yet did not marry; or who were about to take a voyage, and yet did not take a voyage; or who were about to engage in affairs of state, and did not do so; and those who were about to rear children, yet did not rear any; and those who were preparing to take up their abode with princes, and yet did not take it up. One of his sayings was, "That one ought to hold out one's hand to a friend without closing the fingers."

Diogenes: Life of Diogenes from Lives of Philosophers (http://www.classicpersuasion.org/pw/diogenes/dldiogenes.htm)

[Kuroyagi]

Look Naomi, I really thought about how to answer this yesterday, but I have to honest: you simply cant study philosophy successfully at "wikipedia university".

Study the peoples ideas and not only their private biographies.

Apart from that, you're right that also non-historical myths can be very insightful. For example the story with Alex and Diogenes has many parallels in various Taoist tales about kings who ask some enlightened hermits to help them rule the state. Latter always decline cause its either not in the least important to them or they think that politics are corrupting them. I agree. If you have any amount of magical power than there are only two ways to effectively influence the vulgar world (of politics or money), otherwise let it be and concentrate yourself on more important research: one is from your enclave in absolute obscurity and the other is the normal one, by becoming a politican or exec. at a company or something. Theres no other- all okkultists who proclaim to defend "world peace" from their armchair and yet make ANY compromises in their lifes- and be it "family", "job" or any luxury or anything else are bound to fail. Thats it. (And be fair: one cant ask that of everybody.)

[Kuroyagi]

(post 277) so: PS: I mean that also Diogenes said quite contradictory things, himself. Theres the biography of the link above (by Diogenes Laertius?) but I for example remember sayings that were ascribed to him and related to us by Clement of Alexandria and Xenophon that would make the old bum maybe not so attractive to you lol (e.g. quoting from memory...can give you the exact biographical dates later if you want): one was to the effect of: "If I could lay hands on Aphrodite I'd kill her!" LOL (yet he ALSO said (allegedly): "If my body needs love (i.e. sex) then I can as well also make it with an ugly woman. This is even better cause such a woman will be more grateful to me cause noone else wants her.", or another of his sayings was probably: "Better turn mad than to succumb to lust." etc...so if one looks closely it becomes more and more complicated till you'll just say: I dont have the right or the ability to judge in this or that way, cause often both interpretations can be supported. Then its simply more efficient to merely "use" his ideas and mix them with biographical details so that they acquire depth.

Iwaly, K. :)

[Lucian]

Yeah Kuroyagi - deconditioning. I think we need Diogenes preaching 24/7 on TV these days. Shut down all other channels and just put him on.

Wouldn't that just be another form of conditioning?

Indoctrination is indoctrination is indoctrination.

[Naomi]

I don't know at what point does deconditioning turn from conditioning? Quite right I suppose. Well....what would you have us do with television audiences everywhere? I'm not much of a tv person, really...

Is there anything that isn't indoctrination that is information? I mean, it's almost a universal yang principal....come to think of it. Like the nature of thought, will or mind itself.

If conditioning a mind to be free counts towards indoctrination, then so be it....I'm not suggesting we strap people down or anything....its a half baked plan anyways, I don't have access to tv networks and even if I did, I wouldn't know what to do once I got in the secret broadcasting room.

all the best,

N

[Picatrix]

Quoting the Assassin Old Man of the Mountains: "Nothing is True, and Everything is Permitted"

I wonder, could the Cynics and Stoics respectively be embodying 2 sufic principles: negating everything, and then accepting everything (respectively)?

Diogenes is also cool, allegedly he said that: if a philoospher doesnt offend those whom he teaches hes not effective. lol..

My interpretation of that statement is: he must take the student through the process of negation at some point. Offending = a manifestation of negating.

(post 277) so: PS: I mean that also Diogenes said quite contradictory things, himself ... I for example remember sayings that were ascribed to him and related to us by Clement of Alexandria and Xenophon ... one was to the effect of: "If I could lay hands on Aphrodite I'd kill her!" LOL

Maybe he meant do not idolise love, it is something that sets you free, even though it could be love of something good or bad.

(yet he ALSO said (allegedly): "If my body needs love (i.e. sex) then I can as well also make it with an ugly woman. This is even better cause such a woman will be more grateful to me cause noone else wants her."

Maybe he was showing that sex in itself is different to love, and that love is not necessarily about appearance, and maybe he was making some point about unrequited love, true love, and simple demand and supply. Some deep stuff being hinted at in that quote l think.

or another of his sayings was probably: "Better turn mad than to succumb to lust."

Maybe he was making the distinction between unwilled and willed slavery lol. I'm not sure which is parallel to which here though. Madness removes one's responsibilities, but someone acting under lust can do some pre-meditated stuff l guess. That negates Crowley's "Love Under Will" thing?

[m1thr0s]

That negates Crowley's "Love Under Will" thing?Not really...there's a couple of thousand years and entirely different social climates between them.
Crowley obviously took a much nobler view of lust than Plato but then Plato wasn't choking to death under victorian morés...

m1thr0s

[Picatrix]

I was refering to Diogenes by the way ...


Diogenes of Sinope
He also met Alexander the Great. Alexander was said to have been delighted to discover the famous Diogenes of Sinope sunning himself presumably in the streets of Corinth, where he asked Diogenes if there was anything he could do for him. Diogenes only said something to the effect of "You're blocking my sun, stand aside."

I think that gels with the idea of not idolising love, maybe he saw Aphrodite as blocking the sun ?


He was a critic of society and often succeeded in disturbing the population of Athens, sometimes by doing nothing more than going about his daily business.

Is he the person who said that he walked around Athens once in search of an honest man, and found none? Was he a cynic or a stoic?

[m1thr0s]

I was refering to Diogenes by the way ...oops...lol...

m1

[Kuroyagi]

As far as I remember Diogenes himself was The cynic (from dog= living like a dog etc.) but the Stoics werent there yet so to speak; yet he was amajor influence for them...about the sex vs love thing I dont know...as far as it goes I think he was mostly making a point about "reducing lifeto its bare necessities" and thereby he critizised others who were much better off but still perpetually moaning about their losses their fate etc...so in this the Stoic position also shines through already..."to be unaffected by loss you cant doanything about anyway"its given, its taken kind of thing...I would think that there could be many parallels to Sufi teachings as there are to Taoism too (like eg Zhunagzi)

[Naomi]

Diogenes was the kind of guy who said what he meant and meant what he said...

So it was probably more like

"Get the fuck out of my sun, I'm trying to get a tan"

with no hidden meaning. The only deep meaning you could really draw from it would be that the sun is greater than any earthly king, or Diogenes trademark attitude - that nature itself needs no high cultural trappings or social parameters, man needs none either. Most of all the cynics held much disregard for high birth and high wealth. (haha no offense Kuroyagi! Lol!)

Diogenes cut out some ideas which are clearly outrageous even today, for one thing, he promoted free love, masturbation and sex in public, discouraged marriage, was reported as pissing in front of his students whenever he took a fancy to do so (in the middle of a lecture) and furthermore despised high fashion. Cynicism was very unpopular and remains one of the less explored schools of philosophy today.

I love it though.

But let's talk about Hipparchia! Philosophy is such a sausage festival. :P

Hipparchia was also a Cynic, and what's more she was born many years after Diogenes. Because she was female her works are not well recorded, though she was married to another Cynic philosopher, Crates of Thebes, who himself was a student of Diogenes of Sinope. Hipparchia was very popular with the boys but instead of marrying one of her wealthy suitors she decided to run off with this crazy broke ass philosopher. Cynics all despised wealth so they very rarely owned anything - thus Crates was a true Cynic. After she threatened to kill herself to her parents if she was prevented from joining Crates, her parents convinced Crates to have a word with her and discourage the idea, which he attempted but she was still adamant.

Finally after being unable to convince her, he stood up, saying (something to the effect) "OK fine you crazy bitch! This is all I own!" and proceeded to throw off all of his clothes and stare at her to see her reaction. Then they had sex on the front porch in front of everybody.

After that they got married -a custom which is ordinarily against Cynic custom, since they abhor social restraints, but in this case it was accepted because they were both Cynics and spoke for the Cynic cause.

Another tale to relate about Hipparchia is it so happened, during one of her rounds she made with Crates, she happened to engage the Atheist Theodorus in an argument.

She told him, that if it is not wrong for Theodorus it is not wrong for Hipparchia to do something, and so, if it was not wrong for Theodorus to slap himself, she too, might also smack him upside the head and not be wrong. At this, Theodorus attempted to lift up her robe to expose her to the world, and withdrew from him, but did not complain like a woman normally would. (ie I think she defended herself by slapping him probably)

And when he said to her: "Is this the woman 'who left her carding combs beside her loom'?"(6) (http://www.stoa.org/diotima/anthology/hipparchia.shtml#n2) "Yes, Theodorus," she replied, "it is I. But do you think I have made a bad decision if instead of wasting my time at the loom I have used it for my education?" These are among the numerous sayings of the woman philosopher.Celia Luschnig

You can find that all here:

http://www.stoa.org/diotima/anthology/hipparchia.shtml



From Wikipedia:

Hipparchia was married to another Cynic philosopher named Crates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crates_of_Thebes) and in doing so chose the Cynic lifestyle. This means that she chose a life void of material possessions and artificial social conventions. For most Cynics, this included marriage because of the Cynic belief in rejecting social and political order in order to become an unconventional citizen of the universe. However, their union could be reinterpreted as a rejection of having to conform to the beliefs of the Cynics, thus being an act of cynicism.Anyhow, I consider myself a modern Cynic, and there's quite a few differences. For one thing I consider Aesthetics to be a prime modus operandi in nature, whereas Diogenes I believe would probably criticize my style of dress and my use of cosmetics - even if some of them are completely naturally available, ie charcoal, berry juice or w/e - I cheat and use Lo'real but I have used natural products in the past. Yet cosmetics are useful for my job as kunoichi, see, and as kitsune, I only use them when I have a goal in mind, - I don't care about being seen at the grocery store in my zombie shirt and half washed hair with day old mascara creating a living dead effect. It's all theatrics, a line of work and a way of survival, not slavery to social norms. It doesn't matter at all - I love Diogenes if he were to suddenly show up on my doorstep and tell me to take off all of my makeup and shave my head I would take off the makeup and say "Hair has an esoteric purpose, let me teach you about that..." hahaha :)

What was really behind despising wealth and so on was that the wealthy were extremely incompetent individuals. Put them in the wilderness for a few days and they wouldn't last very long at all. They had slaves cater to them and everything, much like today's middle and upper class survives, our culture is much farther removed from nature than even high Athenian society.

I strive to follow Cynic philosophy as closely as I can. For instance I've learned from it too - when I look back at my life and the choices I've made, trying to conform to social norms and expectations has always led to an unnatural, unhealthy and insufferable state of being.

[Kuroyagi]

Super post Naomi! When I listen to you talking about the Cynics then I want to read some of their thoughts...

Diogenes himself was real but this "poor" style can become an aesthetic all of itself: look at the Hippies or certain leftists (in Europe maybe more than in the States,of the 68 generation)...they are actually quite rich or utterly"establishment" by now but dress themselves up shabbily-same with the grunge style...or designer clothes that were aged or torn etc...

What I always find funny is that people of "noble birth" are often attracted to extremist philosophies and groups that propagate the opposite of their social background. In the beginning of the 20 th century nothing would shock ones well-born parents more than becoming a communist and that was exactly the reason why some nobs were the most avid defenders of the "working class"...

What was really behind despising wealth and so on was that the wealthy were extremely incompetent individuals. Put them in the wilderness for a few days and they wouldn't last very long at all. They had slaves cater to them and everything, much like today's middle and upper class survives, our culture is much farther removed from nature than even high Athenian society.Thats a good point.

[Naomi]

Look Naomi, I really thought about how to answer this yesterday, but I have to honest: you simply cant study philosophy successfully at "wikipedia university".

Study the peoples ideas and not only their private biographies.




Listen, I made a deal with a friend once that if I would read one book of his he would read the one I reccomended. So I did, it was Plato's Republic. I did not care for it at all. I don't understand what you mean to insinuate by this - that I don't read off of the internet or that I have never read Plato.

I do not keep any of Plato's works in my home and so it's easy enough to use Wikipedia for quick snippets, especially since this is about Cynics anyways....

One of the big differences here is that both Plato and Socrates had a certain disgust for the body whereas Cynics did not...you're always bitching about how people assail the world with old ideas repackaged, now look, I'm taking the Satanic stance that we should live in the world and enjoy it and going back right to the roots of the Greek civilization to find these echoes.

And anyways just look at Plato, his IDEAS as you put it had a lot too do with his lifestyle.....anyways I'm done...I just can't believe I had to live through Plato and get accused of not reading his ideas.

I just don't like Plato. He's weird and creepy in all sorts of ways that are no good for me.

[MythMath]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/playdohplatocopy.jpg

[wiz-oz]

Mythmath, is that Plato I see on the can giving us the "finger" or is it a can full of Play-dough?

cheers from OZ

[MythMath]

Hi wiz-oz, check your pmail...

[Kuroyagi]

The image on that "can of worms" is from this fresco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens) by Raphael.

Naomi:

I partly agree: The Cynics wanted to emphasize the world, too- but they also were direct students of Platonism or at least of Socrates (Antisthenes) and stood strongly in his tradition- they only gave it their own bend. If you think that they were not as "afraid" of the body as Plato then thats certainly true but also think about what their "aim"-their intention was…(namely: to overcome all superficialities of society and bodily differences like ugliness or cleanliness). Looking at what they could have aimed for the Platonist-idealist thought of the Abstract Ideas shines through: ideas that stand behind the world of mundane and superficial things. The Cynics wanted to show and prove to themselves not only that the body is important but, also contrarily, that it is accidental and that it can be ignored to some extent (also cf. The Stoics there), that its various differences in looks and aesthetic appearance (ugly/beautiful- old/young etc) are to be neglected and thereby to see and experience the commonalities in all the various bodies that could then be subsumed as the expression of its essence, hence its (Paltonic/Socratic) idea. This Cynic indifference about such superficial things is also mentioned in the wiki article, btw.

But I think you needn’t be scared of Plato…you may not like some things you heard of him- and I’d agree (I mainly dont like "him" cause of his utterly traitorous and insufficient-cause purely truth-based/realistic- poetic theories) but he also gave expression to some pretty genial ideas. Even the Abra-techniques and Pythagoras share one and the same principle of abstraction with Platonic thought.

I also only have read some few Dialogues and some other things like the Symposium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium_(Plato)) (a theory about love etc)…and then the stuff others have related about the near mystified death of Socrates, but unfortunately never the State- but if you like we could at some time read and discuss some of his writings or dialogues together in this spot- in a light hearted and easy going way, I mean. (Maybe my posts last year were a bit forced and unfocused there…my apologies.)

And you're right of course: Wiki is practical, what I meant is that its more difficult to grasp the bigger pic. by only reading those snippets…but you didn’t do that anyway, so no problem there I’d say. :)