Shamanism, Necronomicon, Bible …aliens

[1000ShadesofGrey]

First of all let me explain that I’m not a Necronomicon expert. And that is one of the reasons why I dare to post this, because I looked from the outside to two different things and saw the same.

When evoking entities from the Necronomicon, the Sorcerer often perceives them as geometrical figures.
Some Shamans/Nagualists also perceive the inorganic beings as geometrical figures.

The continued use of the Necronomicon changes the Sorcerer/Priest. Not only his/her energies change but also his/her mind and body. It is believed that changes happen even at a genetic level.

Shamans are also changed. In the Siberian Shamanism it is believed that to make that change in full, the shaman needs organic matter. It has been reported that during is training and maturing up to 9 people that he/she knows die to provide that matter.

Necronomicon users often complain of increasing paranoia bordering on insanity.
Siberian Shamans during their change almost inevitably become insane, for a period of 3, 6 or 9 years. The number of years and the number of dead people always coincides.
In the Bible it is said that a Babylonian king become insane for 3 years, living in the woods, singing and eating grass. This description is amazingly similar to the descriptions of the madness of Siberian Shamans. In the Bible it is said that it was the Lord’s curse. I seriously doubt that.

In both cases their world view is completely destroyed and replaced by something else.

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion they’re reaching for the same entities/energies, with a single difference. The Shaman dives in it, and is more deeply affected. The Sorcerer/Priest evokes, and that may protect him/her a bit from the full impact of the energies. It also takes him/her longer to fully change.

Both of them bring an alien energy to this world.

The Shaman/Sorcerer/Priest becomes at least energetically a Hybrid, something that is no longer completely of this world.


Comments would be appreciated…

[m1thr0s]

I'm not a Necronomicon expert either but it seems like we are talking about very different things here...connected in some way, though I am not sure where exactly. For one thing people working through the necronomicon are actually working through a modern framework...a kind of fictional repackaging of Sumerian archetypes that have "madness" more or less as a deliberate sub-plot running through most of Lovecraft's work. If you bypass all of that and just go through the original Sumerian archetypes based upon more credible information sources, your connection to the whole landscape will be a lot cleaner...less distorted etc...

The "geometry" connection is very interesting. I hadn't heard that before but would seem to make sense with anything involving serpentine imagery in general. I am not quite sure how this connection has evolved although I think that the whole relationship with visual inebriants is highly suspect. It may not be so much a matter of the inebriants themselves however as the fact that most serpentine related systems have a lot to do with directly altering consciousness in some way which often results in very similar kinds of visual/auditory activity...a good deal of which is highly geometrical by its nature.

There is no shortage of references to "divine madness" anywhere to be found however and it would seem we often must pass through something like this to emerge at a significantly different place than we started from. It seems almost more a matter of change itself, and what is required for the human mind to really achieve any kind of powerful paradigm shift.

m1thr0s

[1000ShadesofGrey]

I'm not a Necronomicon expert either but it seems like we are talking about very different things here
If you bypass all of that and just go through the original Sumerian archetypes based upon more credible information sources, your connection to the whole landscape will be a lot cleaner...less distorted etc...
I don't think/feel that they're very different things. Allow me to explain. Sumeria was the first civilization Their religion can be considered a direct offspring of other more shamanic, more primal worldviews. And their religion, like all religions can be said to have made the magickal act of locking out their followers from other places and sources of power. It is in Sumeria that the first anthropomorphic gods appear, and even those that are not anthropomorphic are somehow organic, easier to understand and connect in human terms.

I think that the Necro subtext somehow created a door where more primal gods or more primal ( non organic shaped ) manifestations (and perhaps truer) of those gods was possible…precisely what the Sumerian religion was created to avoid. However I think that the more modern approach also prevents the Priest/Sorcerer from most of the backlash, a kind of protection that the Shaman usually doesn’t have. It is just the Shaman and the spirits.

[m1thr0s]

It's a very interesting theory 1000ShadesofGrey, though I admit I am not sure of where it's leading. It does seem like some sort of paradigm shift went down with the rise of the Sumerian empire. Somehow the spiritual leadership of whole nations switched over from the Shaman to the Divine Right of Kings. Perhaps kings did not wish to pay the same price for their spiritual authority as the Shamans had always done.

But one is sort of left wondering why not? If the Shaman actually becomes something greater than human, why wouldn't kings want to have this same advantage? In the case of King Nebukadnezar, perhaps there actually was a concerted effort to achieve this. Yet, by all appearances, the risk would have been tremendous so I can well imagine it might have become considered too high a price to pay for most.

The geometry connection really intrigues me in all of this. I have my own reasons for this because as an I Ching practitioner, I have become intimately aware of the intellegence of the hexagrams, which are simple glyphs by all outward appearances, yet powerful archetypes in their own right. Pythagoras was onto this geometry connection as well with his Tetractys of the Decad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetractys) etc...this whole idea that certain geometries are a lot smarter than they appear and may even qualify as a higher order of intelligence in themselves.

m1thr0s

[Amur]

Might be that the shamans get removed completely as their own being, only to be used as an instrument for spirits to act through to get theirs done in this world. Some initiations might evolve around making ones energy bodies defense into 0 against spirits for the duration of the breakdown process. Which will certainly grow into insanity after a while, though it is still far away from actual insanity. Another characteristic of some shamans is that they have the words 'eternity' written on their entire body, which is probably why many are so scared about them. Whatever it means...

[lsvpa]

At the very least, we can consider that in the timeframe that we are talking about, which is really in and around 5000-8000 years, there has been none or very little change in human neurology. It shouldnt really matter how the experience is accessed, the thing that should matter is the experience itself. Of course the 'how' is very interesting! Naturally there will be concordances across time and cultures so long as the experience is the same one.

Visible language is an interesting topic, to be sure, all of our metaphors for understanding are visual: Let me make it clear for you. Let me paint your a picture. Do you get the picture? Do you SEE what I mean? etc...There is certainly pattern recognition hardwired into the visual centres, no doubt further control over the self leads to access of certain subroutines and background tasks that are linked to these things.

The Shaman dives in it, and is more deeply affected. The Sorcerer/Priest evokes, and that may protect him/her a bit from the full impact of the energies.

It almost seems that "the shaman accepts it, and the sorceror/priest tries to negotiate with it"!

[Amur]

The human body is quite an interesting design. As we are constantly developing our software to even better extents, which is really what makes the whole evolutionary process possible in the first place. There are still so many unknown powers to tap into in the unconscious plane that I'm quite amazed by it. And yet there awaits imo another huge evolutionary leap in the time when everyone gets their spines activated. Whatever it is that happens which boosts awareness by a very large factor.

Still the spine circuit is only the beginning. During one process the creativity factor was boosted to such an extent that everything I thought and saw was purely fractals and somehow interconnected with each other. It was all perfectly clear how it worked.

It is often stated that shamans are dead to the world. Which would go akin to the definition of Nirvana, the extinguished one imo. In a sense this would mean the total dismemberment of ones personality/ego, whereafter a new one is built by the shaman itself.

Intelligence of geometry, strikes me as something familiar, though it's yet quite in babies shoes. Perhaps the intelligence of certain molcules lie in their geometrical placement, which in turn gives them their own kind of 'consciousness'.

[1000ShadesofGrey]

Intelligence of geometry, strikes me as something familiar, though it's yet quite in babies shoes. Perhaps the intelligence of certain molcules lie in their geometrical placement, which in turn gives them their own kind of 'consciousness'.

Fair enough...molecules with the same chemical composition but a diferent structure behave diferently.

[Kuroyagi]

I think that was well observed 1000shades. I also think that there is a connection between the Necro idea/concept and the shamans (archaic) path. I myself rather tend to the shamanic approach you describe and that’s also why I don’t use traditional evocation and the various Necro versions, and neither their paths and sigils. (also because I believe that I can (and did) construct better verse- and spell-books, myself).

For me congruencies between these two things (shaman and Nec.) are for example the relevance of dream-work to both, oneiric sorcery, of literature (of the songs/stories themselves) and poetry (and art generally- my def of art is very wide, btw). What I like about HPLs stories is particularly their atmosphere (their qi), the intuitive feeling they transmit to you and how they can enshroud you till you are in one of them; and I think much of this subtlety and the resulting opportunity for spontaneous magical action and reception could be lost if they are dealt with via a method that doesn’t allow for enough free space or that defines too much beforehand already. Some things can really only be viewed by the illumination of the moon and will crumble under sunlight- yet this is part of the technique itself and not obscurantism at all.

Maybe the shaman does endanger himself of being more radically- also structurally- transformed which could be seen as reckless, too. To give an alternative explanation (alternative to the Platonists and Spare/Jung): this process of change neednt always be explained as a remembering of atavisms (a la anamnesis etc) but, generally formulated, the exiting of our life-form and the entering into another, an utterly alien one- and thereby we turn into aliens ourselves (but never completely- so that we can return and heal our societies on this side of the fence). This process is of course somewhat reciprocal as I have experienced; something is taken away from you and something is given, and don’t forget: to be bereaved of something that belongs to your human nature can be quite horrifying indeed- Cthulhu will use your eyes as searchlights, but so will you be able to see trough his- and more: will be able to use them for yourself. Empathy can include the whole palette of feelings from love to cruelty- the whole spectrum that constitutes a form of being. Here often the theory of the widened being instead of a body mind spirit categorization comes in handy- e.g. to better explain the shamans flight etc, and already the expression OOB is misleading, IMO.

Its an initiation not only unto a new path/way of thinking, its also an initiation into a new way of being in its most physical sense- hence its always “death seen as an experience” (and don’t let yourself be misled by philosophers who sometimes want to dictate what we are able to imagine and experience and what not: who says that practically death cannot be where life is?). I have also wondered about some similar things recently in this thread (if I may give the link here)- http://www.magicatastrophe.com/viewtopic.php?t=574

Geometry is also alien cause it doesn’t occur in nature. There is no perfectly straight line in nature, and numbers are suppositions though they have an empirical base- but all in all those things are fictions. No wonder that they were (and are) deemed divine/sacred fore they are a miracle. Cause even though they are unnatural and in this respect unreal they practically do work! (one can build bridges and houses by the aid of them). But what Lovecraft again did was to point out the connection between some eldest things before history and time (the GOOs) and the latest cutting edge discoveries in mathematics (non Euclidian, Goedlian) that culminate in some form of non-logic. The same thing happened with the substitution of predictability with probability in quantum physics.

If we as humans deny the alien, the wild, the demonic aspects of ourselves and try to create a perfectly rational and stable world (and ban those things to the inside of our psyche respectively explain them away scientifically) they will start to manifest in our culture and wreck havoc on it. (But who knows what the future will bring? - our societies develop in the direction of having more interrelations and interdependencies of persons. Yet at the same time those persons are less emotionally involved in those relations so that individuality is very much emphasized).

[Amur]

This is perhaps more unto shamanism. Saw this gallery and can see the same patterns which have been popping up in the last 3 years. The feelings become distorted like in the pictures.

http://www.croponline.org/images/misterimente1.jpg

Scary. Oh well.. Talk about auric/mental shielding lol..

[Alarum]

I've not gone mad.... yet.

[m1thr0s]

Geometry is also alien cause it doesn’t occur in nature. There is no perfectly straight line in nature, and numbers are suppositions though they have an empirical base- but all in all those things are fictions.Huh? Don't tell that to the Golden Mean which turns out to be natures most popular means of creating structurally stable species...I think that nature just isn't blatant about anything of a mathematical nature but there is a mathematical reasoning behind even this...diversity=strength...and variations upon themes seem to determine the permanence or impermanence of those themes in real life settings...

The geometry is always there...it's just brilliantly embellished...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

I believe that even houses tend to become natural if one uses geometry underlying the natural processes. Which in turn causes the ppl to come more natural living inside those houses. But of course these are only wild theories for geese-hunters. Still I believe that it can't be in anyway constructive or even beneficial (other than shelter) to construct houses which would make an ancient greek architect choke to death on the mere sight of it. To mind comes "Truth is Beauty"

I've not gone mad.... yet.

Ahh... It's not madness, it's a perfectly established piece of melody. ;)

[Kuroyagi]

I dont know much about mathematics but I thought that geometry is always an abstraction (in some sense a simplification and also reduction) of nature...which doesnt say that it doesnt work- but how and if "nature" itself does create in that way I dont know. Of course we can see it from another angle: namely that all human constructs are nature too- but somehow that would lead the term ad absurdum (cause there wouldnt be anyhting left BUT nature and thereby a seperate term (which is a differentiation) would be obsolete).

Dont know how much its worth but this article also claims that it becomes "fuzzy" when comparing the golden mean and the shape of animals etc...(which as I said doesnt mean that it could never work: in order to eg genetical construct/engineer a living organism- its only doubtful in my opinion that it can be accomplished by the use of geometry and the GM etc alone)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

It is often claimed that the number of bees in a beehive divided by the number of drones yields the golden ratio. In reality the proportion of drones in a beehive varies greatly by beehive, by bee race, by season and by beehive health status, and the relationship is normally much bigger than the golden ratio.
Some specific proportions in the bodies of many animals (including humans) and parts of the shells of mollusks and cephalopods are often claimed to be in the golden ratio. There is actually a large variation in the real measures of these elements in a specific individual and the proportion in question is often significantly different from the golden ratio. Nevertheless, some of these ratios are observed to be quite close to the golden ratio in the shape of the organs or parts which closely follow some basic geometrical shape (such as the Nautilus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus) shell, whose construction proceeds in a logarithmic spiral). The ratio of successive phalangeal bones of the digits and the metacarpal bone approximates the golden ratio.
The proportions of different plants components (numbers of leaves to branches, diameters of geometrical figures inside flowers) are often claimed to show the golden ratio proportion in several species. In practice, there are significant variations between individuals, seasonal variations and age variations in these species, and while the proportion can be found in some individuals at a particular time in their life, there's no consistent, even approximate, ratio in their proportions.As I said I havent studied this maybe as indepth as you, m1thr0s, so I dont know if this wiki-stuff is even close to "hardcore science" etc ;)

[Amur]

I believe that a large portion of my mind is based on pure geometry. It is the level of consciousness language in itself(in my mind). Anything can be mapped with it. Even very abstract thoughts are shown as patterns. Not sure what it is about yet.

You might also want to check into some LSD experience reports from erowid and search for geometric hallucinations. I believe I read sometime about a sage from the east saying that one of the reality borders was based purely on geometry itself. It would be a bit like the OBE real-time-projection place, except that it is consisting out of geometry.

Beehives for example work with hexagons, which in themselves gives the strongest structure form with the largest volume. It had also somekind of positive heat properties if I remember correctly. This is something which is quite directly tied with nature, as it evolves more around the geometrics of the sexagon than the material in itself. Which seems to indicate something.

Another interesting thing is that the Russian goverment has made alot of researches into how geometry works on various things. Haven't yet heard about the research results, only heard that they know a hell lot more than what the public think they do.

[Kuroyagi]

Thats definitely damn interesting stuff amur. I somehow (from a humanists view) understand why eg Pythagoras thought numbers to be divine- one simple reason is that inside the system (inside the triangle ;)) they are completely and utterly perfect and without flaw (perfect proportion etc). Maybe when one would encounter perfect geometrical shapes in "nature" I could imagine that ones eyes would fall out (be blinded by divine light) and Im not being sarcastic here. And this connects to what Lovecraft (and I) were probably also getting at in this thread: perfect geometry WITHOUT any variations (as m1thr0s called them) without naturalness so to speak could drive you mad...or at least would be some kind of revelation indeed..

But if you look into robotics then youll also notice that what m1thr0s called variations will at some point become very important (dominant). eg to create a natural movement....until we will come to a point where we have intuitve science, alchemy and magic like in the anime mechas that are based on technic but are also steered by mind triggers and intuition cause otherwise (consciously) we cannot process such subtleties and/or large amounts of info with our thinking/brain (by merely concentrating)...

[Phoenix]

Hello dear investigators, (im sorry for my misspelling).

Perhaps the "key", is the concept of madness.
Have you ever thought that the power of the mistic comes from the concept of Madness?
:rofl:
Am I the only one that thinks that power comes from the mind in unissuon with the body?!
:o_O:
Your thoughts on this please...
:dull:

[Anibis]

They (meaning Israel Regardi) say that 'the Mystic swims in the same waters that the psychotic drowns in'. Certainly there is a connection between Madness and the Shamanistic/occult initiation, since the mystic or magician starts to re-wire the programming language of their unconscious energy investments. If done rashly, this can create a 'scrambled state', or put more simply, it tends towards dissolving the protective mechanisms which enable us to consciously protect/separate ourselves from forces 'outside of us'. Now, as you know, that is indeed the point, to ultimately dissolve that boundary, but to do it prematurely and without care is to invite a hemmoraging of ones psyche: unpleasant to say the least. The key to successful magicianhood, is, I would say consistency of approach. You are right that 'power' comes from uniting the mind and the body (We could call this Will to Power, or True Will). It is a similar thing, really to this voluntary madness, since as the two halves are integrated, the rational mind exposes itself to the arational unconsious (the body). However, where the mind reacts with excessive fear or agression or control hunger, or whatever, it behaves irrationally. Something to avoid, I think. Madness glamorized is one thing: "Whoa that's CRAZY, dude!", while ACTUAL madness is not so good... Shitting and pissing yourself, staring at the wall, suicide, alienation, fucktardedness, etc... Swim, don't drown. Just my three sense worth...
-Ibisis-

[Amur]

rofl... I'm beginning to drown in sorrow for how things are here, I'm quite the psychotic and mystic... Though for one, I do have unbelievable Faith in you guys. I do believe that things have gone amoc because Western Magick became corrupted. Which means that in the end, the ones being involved witih Magick will solve the problem. So again, cheers to you guys!

[Phoenix]

rofl... I'm beginning to drown in sorrow for how things are here, I'm quite the psychotic and mystic... Though for one, I do have unbelievable Faith in you guys. I do believe that things have gone amoc because Western Magick became corrupted. Which means that in the end, the ones being involved witih Magick will solve the problem. So again, cheers to you guys!


Enndeed, but i have a simple question, I am not a Magician or whatever but i consider myselt a Mystic.

Do you actualy bealieve in Magic as the solution or part of the problem that we all try to avoid?

Energy is a constant in everything we do, corruption is simply a negative form of energy, therefore exploitable - (IT´S NOT THE CASE):no:

"The one with power tends to use it" - Nicholas Flammel

[Kuroyagi]

Do you actualy bealieve in Magic as the solution or part of the problem that we all try to avoid?
Yes, speaking as a mystic I consider magic as a tool to make the "problem", as you said more flexible, to soften it up so to speak (cf. first stage of it: "the saturnian blackening" etc.), and mysticism as the solvent. Yet speaking as a magician- Id say that sorcery is to playfully bounce around in the world and Magic is getting behind/above/below it- more fundamentally. (Or in other terms: first making tabula rasa and then getting rid of the "tabula" or...etcetc :laugh: )

[Ci Celli Ddu]

.

Necronomicon users often complain of increasing paranoia bordering on insanity.
Siberian Shamans during their change almost inevitably become insane, for a period of 3, 6 or 9 years. The number of years and the number of dead people always coincides.
In the Bible it is said that a Babylonian king become insane for 3 years, living in the woods, singing and eating grass. This description is amazingly similar to the descriptions of the madness of Siberian Shamans. In the Bible it is said that it was the Lord’s curse. I seriously doubt that.

In both cases their world view is completely destroyed and replaced by something else.



The madness of the Shaman, found in most cultures, is an inspired madness, not the insanity of terror described in the world of Lovecraft. This inspired madness is due to his new perception of reality and his ability to see connections between objects, actions and symbols that are not evident to others, rather like an LSD trip that lasts for years. During this time the 'Shaman' often lives in isolation, in the wilderness. It is his onlookers who describe him as 'mad', and once he learns to integrate his new reality into the 'Real World' and society then he will be judged to be 'sane' again.