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Nuhad418
05-16-2007, 02:43 PM
A friend of mine sent this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/us/16wiccan.html?em&ex=1179460800&en=4c7ecd214919e356&ei=5087%0A)to me. Its from the New York Times. I suppose living in Canada has given me rose coloured lenses but come on wtf? Has anyone come across real persecution (as opposed to "They don't like me because I like the Goddess") in relation to the occult beliefs?

May 16, 2007

Wiccans Keep the Faith With a Religion Under Wraps

By NEELA BANERJEE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/neela_banerjee/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
DUMFRIES, Va. — Above the woman’s fireplace hangs her wedding picture, taken in a Lutheran church years ago. Below it, on the mantelpiece, is a small Wiccan altar: two candles, a tiny cauldron, four stones to represent the elements of nature and a small amethyst representing her spirit.
The wedding portrait is always there. But whenever someone comes to visit, the woman sweeps the altar away. Raised Southern Baptist in Virginia and now a stay-at-home mother of two in this Washington suburb, she has told almost no one — not her relatives, her friends or the other mothers in her children’s playgroups — that she is Wiccan.
Among the most popular religions to have flowered since the 1960s, Wicca — a form of paganism — still faces a struggle for acceptance, experts on the religion and Wiccans themselves said. In April, Wiccans won an important victory when the Department of Veterans Affairs (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/v/veterans_affairs_department/index.html?inline=nyt-org) settled a lawsuit and agreed to add the Wiccan pentacle to a list of approved religious symbols that it will engrave on veterans’ headstones.
But Wicca in the civilian world is largely a religion in hiding. Wiccans fear losing their friends and jobs if people find out about their faith.
“I would love to be able to say ‘Accept us for who we are,’ but I can’t, mainly because of my kids,” said the suburban mother, who agreed to talk only on the condition of anonymity. “Children can be cruel, and their parents can be even more cruel, and I don’t want my kids picked on for the choice their mommy made.”
She worries that because most people know little about Wicca, they will assume she worships Satan. She fears that her family and friends will abandon her and that the community will ostracize her.
David Steinmetz, professor of the history of Christianity at Duke Divinity School, said, “Wiccans have so many things stacked against them, from what the Bible says about the practice of magic to the history in this country of witch trials, that the image of them adds up to something so contrary to the consensus about genuine religion that still shapes American society.”
Wiccans worship the divine in nature. Some practice it privately in their homes, and others worship with large congregations. Most people do not grow up Wiccan but come to it from another religion.
“It’s a very open religion,” said Helen A. Berger, a sociology professor at West Chester University of Pennsylvania. “Each person can do what they want, and they don’t have to belong to a group. They take things from a number of different sources, like Eastern religions, Celtic practices. You are the ultimate authority of your own experience.”
But its symbols and practices elicit suspicion from outsiders, Wiccans and religion scholars say.
Many Wiccans practice some form of magic or witchcraft, which they say is a way of affecting one’s destiny, but which many outsiders see as evil. The Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star inside a circle, is often confused with symbols of Satanism. (The five points of the star represent the elements of nature — earth, air, fire and water — and the spirit, within the eternal circle of life.)
It is unclear how many Wiccans and other pagans there are. The 2001 American Religious Identification Survey by the City University of New York (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/city_university_of_new_york/index.html?inline=nyt-org) found that Wicca was the country’s fastest-growing religion, with 134,000 adherents, compared with 8,000 in 1990. The actual number may be greater, Ms. Berger said. Some people may have been unwilling to identify themselves as pagan or Wiccan for the survey. Others combine paganism with other religions.
Wiccans face less backlash now than in the past. The Internet provides information about Wicca, and the popularity of the Harry Potter novels has made magic seem a force for good, scholars and Wiccans say.
David and Jeanet Ewing, coordinators of two pagan groups in the Washington area, estimate that at least 1,000 Wiccans and other pagans live in Northern Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia. At least half actively hide their faith from their relatives, Ms. Ewing said. Many also hide their faith from their employers, Mr. Ewing said.
One such person is a 58-year-old former Roman Catholic who has been an auditor for 30 years in what he calls “one of the most buttoned-down departments in one of the most sacrosanct agencies” of the federal government.
“I put on this Joe Taxpayer suit, and it’s like living two lives,” he said. “A minority would have a problem with me, but it would be a big problem. They would assume we are doing weird things, illegal, immoral things, at all hours. They wouldn’t want to really know what we do, but they would go with their presuppositions instead.”
The auditor said that by “coming out of the broom closet,” he risked ostracism at work and perhaps being pushed into early retirement, which would affect his pension. “I don’t even want to contemplate it,” he said.
A New York marketing executive finds the city so secular that being passionate about religion is often met with a smirk, and it would be worse if people knew he was Wiccan, he said. “In my personal and private life, I like to be taken seriously,” he said. “Pagans are associated with the ’70s and hippies and counterculture. New York is a Type A city, and it’s all about getting ahead, and the kooky ones don’t get ahead.”
Members of other religions, including Jews and Catholics, have sometimes been forced to mask their faith in the past because of religious bias, Professor Steinmetz said. But it is rare, he added, for people to keep their religion from parents and grandparents, as many Wiccans do.
The Virginia mother has not told her mother or grandmother that she is a Wiccan. “I have a deep-seated fear that they will say, ‘I can’t be a part of this, you’re raising your kids as evil,’ ” she said.
She attends classes about Wicca on Friday nights, and she has yet to caution her older child, a preschooler, not to tell anyone about them.
“My son says, ‘Yeah, Mommy’s going to witch school,’ ” she said. “I’m just waiting for the day he says that in front of a teacher.”

feranaja
05-16-2007, 03:10 PM
Just recently someone who got in an argument with me - or tried to, lol - ona dog group, dug up the fact I'm Pagan,and threatened to"ruin my career" etc by spreading the word I'm a Witch. She called me a whacko, a nutjob, and worse, all because she found my Witchvox post and decided if I was a Witch I couldnt possibly be a good nutritionist also. She was in the US. But I work online, so I deal with all sorts. Thankfully, I don't need her business,and for every one who won't hire a Pagan to formulate dog diets, there seems to be several hundred lined up who will. but it was unnerving to see that someone would invoke my spiritual beliefs in an attenpt to discredit my standing in the canine community, as a businessperson and a nutritionist.
fera

m1thr0s
05-16-2007, 04:15 PM
take a couple a cool breaths, cock, aim steady, and calmly blow her ass to pieces...

your beliefs are your beliefs just as hers are hers...this has nothing to do with what is or is not recommended nutritional guidelines for dogs.

m1thr0s

feranaja
05-16-2007, 04:21 PM
lol, she isn't hurting me in the least. But the thing that did shake me up is that people would resort to this sort of prejudice over an unrelated argument. I haven't encountered it in a looong time, and it was disturbng.
fera

m1thr0s
05-16-2007, 04:36 PM
yeah...well she's got a bug up her butt that's for sure. Who knows why...bad marriage...violent imprinting...needs to blame others for her own shortcomings...the same old laundry list I would imagine...

She's a dying breed though...I'm sure she's pretty much aware of that...hence the force of her attack...she's desparate...

m1thr0s

Darin Hamel
05-16-2007, 09:12 PM
Its the tyranny of the majority. But if it makes you feel better...
Pakistani Christians Seek Government Protection After Threats to Convert by Pro-Taliban Forces
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273075,00.html

Talkingfox
05-17-2007, 05:05 AM
I dunno...I'm of the opinion that it's impossible to play tag when only one person runs. I've gotten occasional flack, but no real persecution. But then again I don't go looking for it either.

feranaja
05-17-2007, 06:45 AM
I dunno...I'm of the opinion that it's impossible to play tag when only one person runs. I've gotten occasional flack, but no real persecution. But then again I don't go looking for it either.


Me neither, really - I don't discuss my spirituality in many places or wear visible jewelry etc...the woman who went after me was upset because I asked her not to use my yahoogroup - where I put in untold hours of work for free - to advertise the services of a competitor. She totally freaked and started digging around to find some "dirt" on me and found Witchvox. Her letters became really hateful and mocking. I kicked her off the group and thats an end to it. But it amazed me she used my faith to vilify me. I guess I should be used to being attacked for inane reasons, but this was a shocker and relevant to NuHad's comments. It can happen anywhere.
fera

Aodh
05-17-2007, 07:07 AM
This kind of reminds me of the kind of pointless attacks or judgements people make on or of gays and lesbians; the other day in AP English class we all got into a discussion of politics (as always seems to happen) and I remember the topic of abortion came up and personally, I am pro-choice and pro-population control so I'm very much in favor of keeping abortion legalized. Someone else's response automatically after I'd said my piece was, "Yeah but you're gay, of course you're pro-abortion.".

This has happened in all other sorts of discussion and what not before and I wonder how many of them realize that being gay does not mean I'm a Democrat nor does it mean that I am a frivolous spender nor does it mean that I like to wear Mommy's dresses.

Basically, people like to take what little they think they know and apply it as a broad judgement. I bet a large part of why the woman thought she could hurt your business Fera is because of association of WItches and Pagans etc. in the minds of many uber-Christians and even uber-Athiests with animal sacrifice and other such things and dog poisonings ala Jack Chick tracts.

Nuhad418
05-17-2007, 07:41 AM
She's a dying breed though...I'm sure she's pretty much aware of that...hence the force of her attack...she's desparate...

m1thr0s

I'm not sure about that m1. I have not been keeping up with the stats but at one point fundamental Chistianity was on a steep incline. In general, I believe (again its been a while since I looked into this) that fundamentalism is on the rise. That sort of mentality can breed fear and hostility...almost like its tailor made for that purpose! :laugh: If I wear my pentagram ring the worst I have to deal with is some 14 year old asking me "Are you a pagan?" Never knowing what to answer I usally give this look: :dull: Fera was manager of a local occult shop back in the day and I recall a few times people were a bit hostile (fera can comment on my memory) but usually the only time there was direct threat or damnage was due to broken windows because someone, who shall remain nameless left athames in the front window and they were promptly liberated :laugh:

I recall articles in the 1980's about people losing their jobs or being threatened over this kind of thing. I was truly taken aback that it is still going on. Oh the joys of spending too much time navel gazing :cool:

feranaja
05-17-2007, 07:53 AM
I was hit on far more than I was attacked, when i was public. I mean people who thought it would be cool to get next to a Witch, who might not have had any interest in me without the flowing black dress and the silver jewelery (yeah, I went through that stage too). That was annoying enough and a form of prejudice, albeit fairly harmless. The athame incident (ah a Capricorn never forgets) was more about people trying to steal the knives than anything... now how did you resist mentioning the time I left a crystal ball in the direct sunlight on a shrine cloth, Oh Goatish One?

Seriously... there is so much widespread acceptance of anything New Age-y that I think a lot of Pagans, Wiccans etc slip by as nothing too exotic, or even as "cool". Aodh, the person who went ballistic on me wasn't suggesting I'd harm an animal, but rather that I couldnt be a competent nutritionist and a Pagan, since clearly Pagans are insane nutjobs who live on the fringes and can't be trusted to do their jobs well.

Oh well. The last time someone flipped on me, or one of the last times, his accusation was I don't know anything about dogs. People in a deranged state of mind do a lot of projection,and rarely make sense.
fera

Nuhad418
05-17-2007, 08:02 AM
The athame incident (ah a Capricorn never forgets) was more about people trying to steal the knives than anything... now how did you resist mentioning the time I left a crystal ball in the direct sunlight on a shrine cloth, Oh Goatish One?



Come now, the athame incedent was directly realted to the thread...wh\y would I bring up the near disaster that could have occured? :rofl: I did way more stupid stuff in that store than you did: hit the silent alarm without realising only to have the tactical team come into the store; make a shrine out of stock (how was I supposed to know that's bad form?); drink copious amounts of beer...ah those were the days. Nothing like working for stock. :laugh:

feranaja
05-17-2007, 08:17 AM
Oh God, thanks for making me totally nostalgic.

Ah yes, the SWAT team incident..rofl.

Which one of us idjits spilled a shitload of mercury all over and promptly VACCUMMEd it all up? Thats THE worst thing you could do, no wonder I got sick (or maybe the death curses from jilted Satanists didn't help)

We could make a whole thread out of the adventures from those days but I'm not sure anyone would appreciate it but us, and maybe Mikerocosm.

I miss the guy from the Pleieades the most.

Damn...we should open our own store/hangout/ritual site someday.
fera (sorry OT!!!)

feranaja
05-17-2007, 08:19 AM
...ah those were the days. Nothing like working for stock. :laugh:

Agreed - how else does one end up with the entire published works of Llewelyn AND 350 tarot decks??:eek:

Naomi
05-17-2007, 10:46 AM
Well I'm good at manipulating most people, so I actually find it fun and challenging to be pretty honest about my beliefs. Being a Satanist and practicing witchcraft is so bourgeois (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious) these days anyways, amongst occultists, that it's really only just a veil for me to lift for outsiders to see.

The average person usually doesn't pry further beyond the Satanism part. It's just too overwhelming. They're shocked already and I suppose that shock tells their mind not to investigate further in case of mental meltdown.

The thing I get a kick out of the most is a little game I like to play - show them my sweet charming side and then let them lead the boring little conversations they want to have. It inevitably leads to the topic of religion or something - especially around here. You know how Seattle has a coffee shop on every street corner? Well, we have a church on every street corner. So they ask about Jesus or what church I go to.

And I'll answer "I am a Satanist."(it's funnier if I'm dressed in my conservative clothes and eyeglasses and look like a librarian) if they pry further I'll give them the party line "Many Satanists are Atheists or Suitheists, and do not believe Satan exists." I'll throw in a few more words above highschool vocabulary and they'll be tongue tied. It's funnier than cow tipping....

Man I love it when people get nosy around me....

silentjohn
05-17-2007, 12:46 PM
...in my conservative clothes and eyeglasses and look like a librarian...


:dull: