The UFO as Grandscale Initiation?

[Nalyd Khezr Bey]

"Something out there is affecting our senses. That is the part that is real. The unreal part is what our senses tell us is there. " Don Juan in The Fire from Within

With only a few exceptions, Ufology seems to be filled with people obsessed with their own beliefs, much like religious fanatics. People who have "identified" these "objects". They seem to have too many points to defend and when that happens all rational thought tends to collapse eventually in my opinion. Who cares? How many people here are kind of bored with that approach and find the personal meaning of the phenomena and experience of UFOs and so-called aliens as an important element to consider? Perhaps more important? Who here sees this in a similar light as I do; that the UFO, and all events that twist rationality (Fortean phenomena), are meant to break down the reliability of our senses and make us question the very nature of our "world".

The UFO phenomenon seems almost designed especially for those who have a lot of convictions about the world they live in (most who subscribe to consensus reality). Most occult-minded individuals don't seem to have these experiences in the same way, i.e. they are not usually interpreted as "alien abduction" or "ufos", unless we decide they should be modelled this way. Is this because the Magickian/Artist is a step ahead of the game in that we are already trying to do what the UFO seems to be intended to do?

Now I have no idea what the real point of this thread is (if it even has a point at all) but I thought a slightly different angle was worth discussing. Make of it what you will and take it where you want.

[fr.novumorganum]

hey Nalyd, I dig this post.

another thought to consider--does this tendency towards the authoritarian personality in ufo believers come from:

1) belief system persecution
2) messiah complex (some who have the experience don't end up like us, some really believe they have been to the mountaintop)
3) character armour/ emotional plague

I guess I'm asking is this result contextual or the result of some inherent personality formation (even if that is contextually determined)? I ask because some occultists do end up that way. What determines is one becomes open and energized, or closed minded? A very important question to ask, indeed.

[Naomi]

111.
Sweet heartened One,
Meditate on knowing and not-knowing,
Existing and non-existing.
Then leave both aside that you may be.

100.
The appreciation of objects and subjects
Is the same for an enlightened
As for an unenlightened person.
The former has one greatness:
He remains in the subjective mood,
Not lost in things.

Yeah I can totally see that Nalyd, lots of useful applications for the phenomenon. :cool:

[Kuroyagi]

hey Nalyd, I dig this post.

another thought to consider--does this tendency towards the authoritarian personality in ufo believers come from:

1) belief system persecution
2) messiah complex (some who have the experience don't end up like us, some really believe they have been to the mountaintop)
3) character armour/ emotional plague

I guess I'm asking is this result contextual or the result of some inherent personality formation (even if that is contextually determined)? I ask because some occultists do end up that way. What determines is one becomes open and energized, or closed minded? A very important question to ask, indeed.
In a similar psychological view one could also say that every historical period has its "delusions" based on human development in sciences and arts too. In the MA, maybe about the same percentage of ppl believed in witches who are literally flying on broomsticks as there are alien and UFO believers today. Somehow every age is contributing to the archetypes. Now the interesting question is not whether the manifestations are real or not but if this is only a reaction to scientific discoveries- e.g. in astronomy and genetics- or if it is a foreshadowing of the future respectively the attempt of a certain "part" of reality to make itself known, a piece of reality that was newly dis-/re-covered and that strives for expression. (of course this includes the possibility that there really are ufos and aliens.)

[m1thr0s]

The UFO phenomenon seems almost designed especially for those who have a lot of convictions about the world they live in (most who subscribe to consensus reality). Most occult-minded individuals don't seem to have these experiences in the same way, i.e. they are not usually interpreted as "alien abduction" or "ufos", unless we decide they should be modelled this way. Is this because the Magickian/Artist is a step ahead of the game in that we are already trying to do what the UFO seems to be intended to do?I've wondered this myself. For some reason the whole *anal probe* thing really drives this home for me. Muladhara Chakra. Root Chakra of the 7 and at its center the word "Lam", bija mantra for Earth:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/muladhara.gif

...and a question seems to hover..."is anybody home?"

I have not once heard an account of an abductee that attempted to use magick to defend him/herself...not once in thousands of so called abductions, visitations, whatevers... presumably these are mental beings so it's at least worth a shot right? And yet...somehow...if you've figured that out already, you're not very likely to need an anal probe to get the juices flowing...you're already there somehow...

Maybe it's just a coincidence but somehow I feel like there's a connection...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

wtf!!?!!?!

that is messed up!!!!

omg

[Kazahel]

To me when people talk about anal probes in regards to ufo's they are only really trying to add toilet humor to the subject.. which is just lam-e.

And why would an abductee want to use magick to defend themselves in the first place? You make it sound as if people need to. It's like saying that you need magick to protect yourself from God, which is just kinda paranoid imo. And those that have had bad experiences I just think its because of there own fear of experience, which creates the rest in their minds. Like their own fear explodes it all.

When I had my experience in that blue light dream there was no fear when I was walking with the main wandjina.. and Lam is just another name.. but you could also call Him Wallungunder.

I mean the lion lays with the lam dude.. why would I need to use magick against the rainbow or the moon? :p

Perhaps more important? Who here sees this in a similar light as I do; that the UFO, and all events that twist rationality (Fortean phenomena), are meant to break down the reliability of our senses and make us question the very nature of our "world". Of course. And I think thats what happens to people after they have a certain experience. To me its like God poking your spirit though the material world. It's meant to stir you from your comfort zone. And for me I had my blue light dream when I was already very good at lucid dreaming, so I was already learning to see what reality was and wasnt inorder to lucid dream well. Like I was questioning my world alot but in a different way.

Most occult-minded individuals don't seem to have these experiences in the same way, i.e. they are not usually interpreted as "alien abduction" or "ufos", unless we decide they should be modelled this way.
Maybe they havent quite had the same experiences though. I mean I have been occult minded for most my life which is why I was lucidly dreaming like a master when I was only 18(I count lucid dreaming as occult knowledge).. and my experience was very typical I guess but it also wasnt at the same time. Like I'm not sure how many people get told to not speak a sound in the presence of Him in the silence(meant in a nice way of course). So I think some people might just not experience as much as they might think is so. Like seeing phantoms from lightbulbs and assuming thats the experience which you can see for what it is.

[m1thr0s]

And why would an abductee want to use magick to defend themselves in the first place?Gee I don't know, maybe it's because being forceably kidnapped and molested doesn't appeal to everybody. The vast majority of abduction reports are hardly pleasant and even if more of them were...why the f*ck should anybody be willing to roll over for that kind of shit?

I think your experiences are pretty squarely in the minority Kazahel. That doesn't invalidate them but it doesn't make you a very typical spokesman for alien encounters either. You are pretty quick to discredit mt little vision of Lam (or whatever) because it doesn't meet with your criterion but my whole point is that this is all some kind of magickal phenomena to begin with...

so why not use magick to consciously to mediate it?

Right at this moment in time I know of exactly 0 trained magicians who have ever been abducted or have reported any of the usual kinds of abduction experiences reported by thousands of others. That strikes me as a little odd. If anything, one might tend to think that magicians would be running a higher percentage than average but this does not appear to be the case.

So I am very curious why that is...

m1thr0s

[Kazahel]

Gee I don't know, maybe it's because being forceably kidnapped and molested doesn't appeal to everybody. The vast majority of abduction reports are hardly pleasant and even if more of them were...why the f*ck should anybody be willing to roll over for that kind of shit?

I think your experiences are pretty squarely in the minority Kazahel. That doesn't invalidate them but it doesn't make you a very typical spokesman for alien intelligences either. You are pretty quick to discredit mt little vision of Lam (or whatever) because it doesn't meet with your criterion but my whole point is that this is all some kind of magickal phenomena to begin with...so why not use magick to consciously to mediate it?

I am not quick to discredit, I just dont like what I see as toilet humor. Usually those who talk about probes are people who have never had an experience, so they shout about others bad ones they hear about in away which almost claims it to be all true and that that is just what happens. Which imo it is not. It's a human creation which has come from the mind because it was in such a state of fear from its own creation because it cant handle actually witnessing another being not of this world. You think you can but you cant. Your mind changes the images and I think its this which distorts the memories of abductees. Anotherwords I dont believe in the probes at all. It's like saying those outside time need to probe you. And when people who dont have any experience go around alluring that the majority get probed I think thats only to throw mud. Sorry if I read it wrong.


Right at this moment in time I know of exactly 0 trained magicians who have ever been abducted or have reported any of the usual kinds of abduction experiences reported by thousands of others. That strikes me as a little odd. If anything, one might tend to think that magicians would be running a higher percentage than the norm but this does not appear to be the case.

So I am very curious why that is...
How many magickians is that out of again?.. and out of how many people being claimed to of been abducted.. and whats a trained magickian exactly?

I would think if you were thinking about needing protection still from the universe and God, then they wouldnt bother with you too much. So the fear from the magickian wouldnt be very welcoming which is maybe why they dont have the same experiences? Maybe? I dunno. Also a trained magickian as what I think you mean, dont actually lucid dream that much I dont think.. like I know I've read who can and who cant and their ruff level of skill in that. So because of the lack of dreaming skills and in general dream recall ect I think even if the 'trained' magickian did have a decent experience, I honestly dont think they would remember it anyway. I only remembered my main experience(dream) because of previous practise and even then I only just remembered it, and when I did I was amazed that I had ever forgotten it. So I think you could be a trained magickian but still fall for the time trick just like everyone else.

[m1thr0s]

I would think if you were thinking about needing protection still from the universe and God, then they wouldnt bother with you too much. So the fear from the magickian wouldnt be very welcoming which is maybe why they dont have the same experiences?
Aliens may be God to you Kazahel...they're a load of pumped up bullshit to me.

and I very much doubt I'm the only one who feels that way...so for me defense matters to the extent that if I say I don't book that garbage in my sphere, then that's just how it is...if they don't like it...they can die...or take the hell off...either way is ok with me.

But in the end my sphere extends a very long way and I will track them every inch of that distance as needed to enforce that mandate.

Now that's just me...I admit to that. But many people would like to not be pushed around by these overgrown maggots the same as me. My feeling is they should learn to defend themselves better and they won't have this kind of problem...assuming that it is a problem for them...the same as it would be for me.

But then...I don't seem to have this problem. The only aliens that appear to me do so with a great deal of respect and also do not feign the abhorent appearance they do to others...so this is interesting...to me.

But this goes beyond defense I think. Assuming that this whole phenomenum really is a kind an initiation excercise...what's the point of the excercise? From my standpoint this is all about self-empowerment or it's about crap...just another pointless faith trip sucking off behind some new and improved asshole instead of being about anything genuinely useful to humankind directly. I really don't see all this Alien phenomena amounting to much of anything as a rule until people find some way to convert it into something else completely.

So part of using magick in all of this also has to do with placing the whole phenomena itself in a more constructive context. It's not simply about defense. If defense becomes an issue, then it's about defense, and in that case I am eager to teach these sob's what a fucking migraine headache can amount to.

But look, you know...I'm hostile to angels for the same damn reasons. I have exactly no reason to trust these kinds of beings and if it were up to me I would purge the universe of them completely. I can achieve this for myself at least and I can endorse that action for others. What they do is ultimately entirely up to them.

I believe this whole thing is indicative of a dependancy on things outside ourselves to achieve a wholeness which they cannot possibly deliver and never have done in the entire history of their involvement with human beings. They stink of fallacy and falsehood on all levels. I do not only not consider them God, I regard them as a kind of cosmic pollution...agents of Restriction, according to their actions as I have have observed them. I believe their involvement with human beings to be entirely distortional and parasitic.

If I am wrong, I can't very much see the harm in being wrong since they do me no earthly good anyway. If I am right, well, that's a whole other situation then, since the proper way of dealing with this garbage is essentially to consume it and thus convert its inertia to some good greater than itself.

m1thr0s

[Kazahel]

Hey how about you answer the questions too? So how many magickians was this out of again.. and whats a trained magickian exactly? I'm most curious... like do you mean just trained in lingo.. or actually trained trained. lol. So what is trained, just so I know what kind of people you are talking about for sure.

But many people would like to not be pushed around by these overgrown maggots the same as me.

If defense becomes an issue, then it's about defense, and in that case I am eager to teach these sob's what a fucking migraine headache can amount to.

But look, you know...I'm hostile to angels for the same damn reasons. I have exactly no reason to trust these kinds of beings and if it were up to me I would purge the universe of them completely. I can achieve this for myself at least and I can endorse that action for others. What they do is ultimately entirely up to them.

And this is just a good example of why they wouldnt of bothered with you in the same way imo. Like they are like mind readers and they would know your heart and wouldnt wish to be around it if thats what you generally think about other life in the universe. They would avoid the hassle of the ignorant mind which thinks in terms of hate towards them. I think thats what I Am for. :laugh: To say you would purge them etc after.. admitting their existance is quite bold of you(and wishful thinking).. like if they exist they must be created by the same One, which means to wish harm upon those who are created by the same as us is well.. not very brotherly or something. Like humans wishing the death of angels who all have the same creator..

Also the one I met was very God like because He told me about my family that I was going to have and He told me many things to help me.. so the main character in my experience was like a Father trying to give alittle advice to a son in times of need which were to come in the future. And I will always love him for that and to think of wishing harm upon those who help seems very wrong. People must get out of this thinking of thinking they are stealing you away etc.. its not like that.. its more like you were always One with them but you forget. You remember when you are with them but forget everything later. So I dont mean God God when I say God.. I mean like God-like compared to man. So for me I think of Wallungunder as like the being between God and man. He is more than man but still a creation in Gods mind. He is the Father which is different to God but the same as, because they share the same.. sound.

But in the end to not have trust in these beings means you are afraid that something bad can actually happen to you, which is something I dont personally believe in because a son of God doesnt need to fear like that. To be afraid to the point of wishing beings to not be, is only showing a lack of faith in what just is. I cant word it well but I hope that made some sense.

I think your experiences are pretty squarely in the minority Kazahel. That doesn't invalidate them but it doesn't make you a very typical spokesman for alien encounters either
They do seem to be in the minority I guess.. But I will share that I was told that I was to be a speaker for them from the Father over 10 years ago, which I laughed at when He told me because I didnt know who they were. lol. And He said that will come in time so dont worry about it. Only now I think I understand He meant the Wandjina's. Who are most Holy and not to be feared.

[Naomi]

The universe revolves around conflict and conflict resolution - struggles and violence are a necessity for transformation. Galaxies eating other galaxies, stars dying, others are consumed by monstrous black holes. One only has to watch a wildlife documentary to realize that most of reality isn't a happy cozy care bear land.

Alot of what you say sounds fanatical and it's apparent you love whoever this being was that you met, but is it possible that by being so zealous you are closing yourself off to other venues of magickal expression, or even misinterpreting who or what it was?

The argument that "We are all one" in attempting to convince people to merge or hug anything that comes into their sphere is only another tool of war as far as I am concerned. I will merge eventually - we all will, but it will be done properly and will entail a very long battle over the course of billions of years. Until then I will kill whatever I see fit to from my angle and trust that those beings will accept their loss as submitting to my all. Off-planet aliens arn't the only ones who can step outside of earth's time stream.

But I will share that I was told that I was to be a speaker for them from the Father over 10 years ago, which I laughed at when He told me because I didnt know who they were. lol. And He said that will come in time so dont worry about it. Only now I think I understand He meant the Wandjina's. Who are most Holy and not to be feared.Your answers only seem to book more questions...who on earth are the Wandjina's....why are they most holy? It's an obscure term as well as a reason and logick error and gets us nowhere unless you can present evidence and an objective argument that offers contrast. It's a little preachy to just expect us to subscribe to your view because you had a profound life changing experience and "we are all one". Other people here have had profound visionary experiences - in fact I would say all of them have, at one point. That doesn't invalidate yours. I don't need aliens, mostly. I don't need external beings either - I'm a self contained macrocosm.

Lastly, I like you Kazahel and I don't know if this extremism is the path to the highest possible target. I understand you've had a powerful experience but there are beings right here on this very planet who are just as cosmic and intelligent as any of the beings incarnated at higher dimensions. How do you know you wern't meeting a ascended boddhisattva disguised as an alien, anyways? I love the devil and chaos Ka, I regard them both as fully able to embody force, destruction, fulfillment and chaos.

[m1thr0s]

Hey how about you answer the questions too? So how many magickians was this out of again.. and whats a trained magickian exactly?
It doesn't really matter how many Kazahel...I simply don't personally know any and have interacted both in real life and over the internet with at least several thousand self-identified magician/magickians etc. I'm sure their training varies but this should have been a large enough pool to have least produced a few people claiming an abduction etc. It simply hasn't happened yet, except of course in your case and you already admit to not having developed any formal training of any kind. In India, by way of example, where the gods are still widely acknowledged and openly worshipped, so-called alien visitations and/or abductions almost never occur at all!

And this is just a good example of why they wouldnt of bothered with you in the same way imo. Like they are like mind readers and they would know your heart and wouldnt wish to be around it if thats what you generally think about other life in the universe.Oh no...I'm actually quite ok with other (real) life in the universe...I'm not ok with that life invading my personal space on any level at all. So if that's all it takes to prevent that, that you just think a few hostile thoughts against them...hey cool...that's about the easiest game on earth then. Yet it doesn't seem to work for others!

But I will share that I was told that I was to be a speaker for them from the Father over 10 years ago, which I laughed at when He told me because I didnt know who they were. lol. And He said that will come in time so dont worry about it. Only now I think I understand He meant the Wandjina's. Who are most Holy and not to be feared.yeah well, do let us know when all that super god-like brain power actually comes up with something intelligent or useful to say...because thus far all the alien messages I have heard about have been a load of trivial bullshit for the mostpart...just a lot of generalized lovey-dovey bs that could have come from anywhere or anybody at all. Nothing to write home about. Nothing that really amounts to much of anything important.

Your experiences are pretty unique Kazahel so you're sort of my one hold-out card on all of this so far and I keep hoping to hear that you have entered into some higher level of discourse with them or something and are being instructed or communicated with in some way that might have a little value to others. Thus far this does not seem to have happened. I have not heard you conveying anything from them that I did not know already just by using my own eyes, ears and instincts.

Hey...who knows...maybe they'll open up at Abrahadabra Forums! If you're going to be their *spokesman* as you say, isn't it about time they revealed to you something worth discussing? About all we've heard from you so far is that they predicted a bunch of unborn kids etc. That's cool and all of that, but really...so what?

Or maybe they have some non-intervention policy that prevents them from actually informing humans of anything they don't already know...:o_O:

edit: In the case of Betty & Barney Hill (if I remember correctly), the aliens claimed to be coming from a galaxy we had not charted yet and they left a star chart as well. Some years later, this galaxy was actually discovered. So it does at least seem possible that some of these *visitors* can communicate things we don't already know...

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

Well, I do actually know at least one magickian who has had an abduction experience. He reported 'waking up' on board their craft, presumably through magickal means, in a way that was suprising to the alien involved (Who of course had some wierd inscrutable purpose). This individual was also quite convinced of the whole gamut of Alien lore, and was steeped in area 51 conspiracies and such. He was a fine magician, however, and did actually introduce me to the mysteries.

I have seen a grey, although it was really just a single image, and one experienced during sleep paralysis (http://theshadowlands.net/ghost/sleep.htm). This used to happen to me with a certain frequency, and in many cases was coupled with a strong sense of malevolence. I am not sure about the grey, since my only thought was 'Hey, you're a grey', but generally speaking sleep paralysis, including the famous 'Hag' experience, is pretty unpleasant, disempowering, and comes with a sense of violation and 'evil'.

I have learned to throw off sleep paralysis via a method somewhat like Tai Chi on an energetic level... The last time I was visited by the Hag, I was able to throw off the accompanying sluggishness and actually respond. She fled right away... The paralysis seems to evoke and feed off of tension in the being of the victim, and so, enabling the tension to flow through you can help bypass it...

I have noticed that sleep paralysis tends to occur often when I sleep flat on my back, as well, although I have a very hard time sleeping that way normally, and so only would enter it if I was having insomnia that was frustrating enough for me to just lay on my back and stare at the ceiling...

These experiences actually have sometimes taught me things too, and the very first one was though terrifying, a pretty major milestone in my initiation. Still, There is no dignity in being 'abducted'. It is like a magickal rape or violence, and must be prevented.

Also in support of m1thr0s' connection to the muladhara chakra... when I had my first encounter of this sort, it was with a shadowy 'woman' floating in an ocean which I could see through the wall of my room... I recieved a word-code from here which I deciphered, and which ultimately yielded the number 496, the (third?) prime, and the number of the word MALKUTh. This was confirmatory for me rather than suprising, since the whole experience did happen at the stage in my development which I would call 'neophyte' ie Malkuth. If anything, this expeprience marked my true transition from Neophyte to Zelator, if you lend credence to those gradings...

I have had none of these experiences in the last two years...
-Anibis

[Naomi]

That's curious Ibisis. I hadn't thought about it but during my Neophyte phase (I guess you could call it that) I actually lived halfway underground in a small basement room at my nana's where I began my infernal work.

Say, could you do me a favor and tell me where I can find those gradings in a book, I'm not familiar with any of the intricacies of the various orders is it OTO or Golden Dawn or Rosicrucian?

These experiences actually have sometimes taught me things too, and the very first one was though terrifying, a pretty major milestone in my initiation. Still, There is no dignity in being 'abducted'. It is like a magickal rape or violence, and must be prevented.That's an interesting statement, I agree with it. I also think that for something to occur like this - even an unpleasant experience, some part of us has to consent to it - this doesn't hold true for earth to earth affairs, but I believe it does hold true for heaven to earth affairs.

[m1thr0s]

Well, I do actually know at least one magickian who has had an abduction experience. He reported 'waking up' on board their craft, presumably through magickal means, in a way that was suprising to the alien involved (Who of course had some wierd inscrutable purpose). This individual was also quite convinced of the whole gamut of Alien lore, and was steeped in area 51 conspiracies and such. He was a fine magician, however, and did actually introduce me to the mysteries.It's sort of been my feeling that there are two groups of people most open to this type of phenomena...those already steeped in the language and those who might be receptively open to *awakening* occurences that are pretty much off to conventional religious symbolism. Betty & Barney Hill, for instance, would have been in the latter category and they seem to have got the ball rolling on all of this in the US at least...

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

Say, could you do me a favor and tell me where I can find those gradings in a book, I'm not familiar with any of the intricacies of the various orders is it OTO or Golden Dawn or Rosicrucian?


You'll find them in 777, as the grades of the A:.A:., methinks, and also in Book IV (Magick in Theory and Practice. There is one grade per sphere:

Malkuth (neophyte)
Yesod (Zelator)
Hod (practicus)
Netzach (Philosophus)
Tipareth (adeptus minor)
Gevurah (adeptus major)
Chesed (adeptus exemptus)
Da'ath (Babe of the Abyss)
Binah (Magister Templi)
Chochmah (Magus)
Kether (Ipsissimus)

I use them very informally, and non linearly.... I imagine it like a garden with 11 plots, and one tends and waters and works all 11 at once such that they grow together (but at different rates) The TC for example is sortof like an automatic sprinkler system that takes you up and down the tree 'watering' each path as it goes by.... click click whirrr whirr click click whirr whirr....

-A-

[Anibis]

It seems that the zelator/neophyte grades (as well as the practicus and philosophus grades) would be most subject to the whole anal probe ordeal, since one you activate Tipareth, there is a higher dignity involved which can pretty much tell halucinations what's what....
-An Ib Is-

[m1thr0s]

people are too quick to reject the idea that all of this phenomena is driven by the mind itself. We don't seem to think it's unusual to encounter dream characters who are able to think for themselves, yet when it crosses over into waking states and we encounter the same kinds of things, we assume it must have its basis somewhere other than the mind. The movie "A Beautiful Mind" had a pretty heavy impact on me from a numbers of different standpoints but one of these was the fact that John Nash's *schizophrenic* characters had incredible staying power and were bright enough to keep him completely fooled as to their true nature for many years (and he wasn't exactly dumb!). Nothing but will power ever really managed to control them...shock therapy, drugs, nothing really prevented them from reasserting themselves. For all practical intents and purposes, they were quite *real*. They were simply of a different class of reality than what we precariously call the *norm*.

just because things are able to manifest in physical ways does not mean that they are not rooted in the mind.

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

I am in agreeance, and I think that film exemplifies what I consider the best way to handle disruptive hallucination. At the end of the day it's YOUR agenda that must call the shots, not that of the 'aliens' whatever their origin might be... And if you can get them to undertand that, then maybe some kind of symbiosis is possible... but the other alternative is being 'whisked away' into a set of goals, actions, and reasons for acting that are obscure to you, and which will more than likely alienate you, and confound your ability to work in the world in a way that is comprehensible to others... you can easily lose your ability to 'speak in the vernacular' (metaphorically), and the results are ugly....
-Anibis

[Kazahel]

The universe revolves around conflict and conflict resolution - struggles and violence are a necessity for transformation. Galaxies eating other galaxies, stars dying, others are consumed by monstrous black holes. One only has to watch a wildlife documentary to realize that most of reality isn't a happy cozy care bear land.

I never said reality was. But are you now saying that God isnt the shark which eats the fish?

Your answers only seem to book more questions...who on earth are the Wandjina's....why are they most holy?

Wandjinas are like the rain spirits.. They are the ones that come to earth to give laws and to help the people. They are the ones who stay in the silence which is Holy(like Gods silence). They do not speak and have no mouths because they kept them shut so the water would not flow and flood the land again. The great flood was from the Wandjina. Personally I find a connection between the Wandjina and the greys and Lam.. because of the silence and the water and what I've dreamt. Also if you look at images of them you will see the halo like thing which goes around the head. Which is why the christians liked them because they could see the similarity and they were told by the aboriginals of their nature.

I understand you've had a powerful experience but there are beings right here on this very planet who are just as cosmic and intelligent as any of the beings incarnated at higher dimensions.
Well I'm yet to meet any like the one I met. It was like walking backwards through time... It's hard to explain but you dont meet people who tell you tomorrow was yesterday very often and mean it.

I'm sure their training varies but this should have been a large enough pool to have least produced a few people claiming an abduction etc. It simply hasn't happened yet, except of course in your case and you already admit to not having developed any formal training of any kind
We look at training in different ways. I dont think there is any need of any other training other than lucid dreaming. We are from the dreamtime... so the only real training in my book is the skills to do with that. Learning to draw hexagrams around you can be fun and stuff but I dont consider that actually training. Thats what I call lingo training. You know the lingo but not how to actually go lucid after sleep. Like... have yous ever tried to do magick rituals during dreaming?? I mean I guess most schools dont train that but imo its most useful. So my lack of training isnt really a lack imo... because I'm yet to meet people who have done half the stuff I have done. So yeah... I might not be trained with books.. but I know how to do certain things others may not. And I didnt need special 'training' from a group to get there. So yeah... I dont really hold any value in formal training like you's obviously do... like if I did.. you would think I would be more afraid yeah.. lol.


Your experiences are pretty unique Kazahel so you're sort of my one hold-out card on all of this so far and I keep hoping to hear that you have entered into some higher level of discourse with them or something and are being instructed or communicated with in some way that might have a little value to others. Thus far this does not seem to have happened. I have not heard you conveying anything from them that I did not know already just by using my own eyes, ears and instincts.

Hey...who knows...maybe they'll open up at Abrahadabra Forums! If you're going to be their *spokesman* as you say, isn't it about time they revealed to you something worth discussing? About all we've heard from you so far is that they predicted a bunch of unborn kids etc. That's cool and all of that, but really...so what?

Me being told about children is not meant for others. Its meant for me. Most of what I was told is not for others which is why I dont share it. I was told to be a speaker for them which doesnt need much more than what I do. Like anotherwords.. I speak for those in the silence... how much do you think those who are silent speak?.. or wish to.. They want rememberance because old ways are being forgotten. Also how often have you lot heard the word Wandjina? Most around on forums I go to would not know that word unless from me and I'm not sure what to say but I think alot more people know about Wandjinas than before. Maybe not on this site but others. And I give you the connection between Lam and the Wandjina and the Father. Which I'm sure you wont read from anyone else.. even if it is just a crazy belief/mistake in your view.

Anyway I guess one of the main messages is a typical one.. they are apart of the brotherhood which we are apart. They just wait quietly for us to evolve. Sometimes we get the law wrong though and society changes which is why Wandjina men sometimes come.

[Kazahel]

Alot of what you say sounds fanatical and it's apparent you love whoever this being was that you met, but is it possible that by being so zealous you are closing yourself off to other venues of magickal expression, or even misinterpreting who or what it was?

Sorry I missed this question before. But He told me He was my Father. And it made sense at the time.. in my heart.. like He is not my earth father, but is like the Father of all humans, so is. He loves All, and He mainly came to me to give me a personal warning and to fill me in on my future alittle, which was most kind.

What would I maybe be closing myself off to though? I feel like I have learned heaps more with what I've experienced in dreams. I like the law of silence.. its most wonderful and I wouldnt of gone that way before. And certain laws bring rainbow serpents. And like I said.. He said He was my Father so its hard to misinterpret that.

I guess you had to be there. :p

[m1thr0s]

Anyway I guess one of the main messages is a typical one.. they are apart of the brotherhood which we are apart. They just wait quietly for us to evolve. Sometimes we get the law wrong though and society changes which is why Wandjina men sometimes come.ok...so they mostly watch and maybe quietly intervene in some way at critical junctions. But they don't really speak because it's chiefly our problem to solve or whatever...

Which makes them roughly as useful to me as a bed of roses, save that they don't smell as sweet or look half as nice.

I understand your hesitance regarding *formal training* though and I am mostly supportive of what you have said about this personally. You kind of have to go with your strengths and these may or may not meet with sanctioned methodologies...I know that drill very well.

My gut feeling on all of this has not changed but I am not as hostile as I may sound...that's just my habitual way of speaking...always my worst face forward. Defense is sort of my thing though and it's not really about being predjudicial...it's about being in control essentially. Even this is not based on any kind of personal ambition so much as necessity itself. Most times I find that the bottom line always comes back the same...our destinies are our business to sort out for the mostpart. That being the case, my whole attitude is stand the fuck back...everybody...I'm about to sort this shit out proper.

m1thr0s

[Kazahel]

My gut feeling on all of this has not changed but I am not as hostile as I may sound...that's just my habitual way of speaking...

Yeah I do that I think.. I shouldnt speak so much cause it usually comes out rude.. which is why I understand the use for silence now. lol.. almost. But I do love that song ' I Am ' by Dio which has lyrics of..

For all the words gone unspoken
Silence isn't gold
Or the story's never told

lol

Anyway I guess I usually feel more on the defensive with the greys personally because of that image of Lam. Because it is a dead ringer for who I dreamt of. And because the image is considered a grey I feel like I have to defend them. But I think from memory you do get good wandjinas and bad wandjinas.. but I'm not totally sure because its hard to find infomation on it. I thought I read it somewhere, but I think that just means some of the ones that come to Earth to teach law can turn bad.

[m1thr0s]

well...on a more positive note (perhaps), I have been told by numerous people that this archetype seems to have found its way into conventional hallucinogenic space, via mushrooms, lsd, mescaline etc...particularly predominent with the naturals apparently...

all of which means...who knows what? But it may mean that it is becoming consciously integrated into our psyches in ways that would have been pretty rare in previous epochs, where angels and demons and gods and so on would have tended to be the more dominant classes of archetypes. These images are often embellished with visions of high technology, hence spacecraft and advanced civilizations and such...

So it doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon...

m1thr0s

[Kazahel]

I understand what you mean. And sometimes somethings are just meant to be so to worry about what just is only disturbs the peace. Which is plain to see.

[Naomi]

Sorry I missed this question before. But He told me He was my Father. And it made sense at the time.. in my heart.. like He is not my earth father, but is like the Father of all humans, so is. He loves All, and He mainly came to me to give me a personal warning and to fill me in on my future alittle, which was most kind.

What would I maybe be closing myself off to though? I feel like I have learned heaps more with what I've experienced in dreams. I like the law of silence.. its most wonderful and I wouldnt of gone that way before. And certain laws bring rainbow serpents. And like I said.. He said He was my Father so its hard to misinterpret that.

I guess you had to be there. :p

Hmm, here's a wild guess...he disguised himself as a grey so when you went talking about it no one would really know it was really the rainbow serpent?

It's funny Kazahel, you refer to him as a god, a singular being, it's not the same way with Grey or Zeta Reticuli fanatics - with them it's all about the group, about Zetan hybrids and the New World Order bs....where our alien "brethren" have been sent here to merge with us and take over the reins of humanity because we're destroying the planet or some bs (as if the planet is a delicate porcelain rock)

^_^

[Kazahel]

Hmm, here's a wild guess...he disguised himself as a grey so when you went talking about it no one would really know it was really the rainbow serpent?
You lost me with that although I do think lam has something to do with the lion. The rainbow serpent is a good thing.. so I'm not sure what you mean by this.

It's funny Kazahel, you refer to him as a god, a singular being, it's not the same way with Grey or Zeta Reticuli fanatics - with them it's all about the group, about Zetan hybrids and the New World Order bs....where our alien "brethren" have been sent here to merge with us and take over the reins of humanity because we're destroying the planet or some bs (as if the planet is a delicate porcelain rock)

^_^
God in our standards. And I dont care what other groups think or say. I havent really read or followed up on that like its a fad. I know the silence is hive minded because I experienced it and loved it. So I can think of this Lam character as being god like(because the scene was set for that)while still being hive minded(which is just telepathy anyway), and I dont care how that fits in with any of the popular ufo fanatics beliefs. So I'm not trying to fit into anyones beliefs like you might like to think, but I have always found it interesting that some beliefs somewhat fit into my own personal one. So yes it's about the group which is the hive mind and that is actually what the silence is. That's the way the thoughts travel and anything other than silence disturbes it for everyone.

[Naomi]

Well, we're only able to form attachments between symbolism we're consciously aware of. I'm curious if you're also aware of the symbolism of the Roman god Mithras as a lion. I was pointing out your difference from the usual alien fanatic as a good thing - there's no need to be defensive - same with the serpents, though I would think my avatar made that obvious.

Did the intelligence refer to itself as Lam?

[Kazahel]

Well, we're only able to form attachments between symbolism we're consciously aware of. I'm curious if you're also aware of the symbolism of the Roman god Mithras as a lion. I was pointing out your difference from the usual alien fanatic as a good thing - there's no need to be defensive - same with the serpents, though I would think my avatar made that obvious.
Sorry I cant help but be defensive.. I find it hard to tell sometimes how people meant the words they type exactly. And usually I get kinda attacked so I tend to act like I am being. It's a circle I tell ya. lol

Did the intelligence refer to itself as Lam?

Nah he gave me many many names. He told me about 20 maybe.. all at once. I asked his name and he just gave me them all using his mind in a moment, which made it hard to grasp any of them. I remember the first name I picked up was an aboriginal name because I recognised the aboriginal sound of the word, and I actually felt proud that His first name He gave me was an aboriginal sounding name. I really remember thinking that and being proud He was Australianish. The problem was.. was that it was too hard to remember because I'm not good with names and when I heard the aboriginal name I knew there was no way I would remember it. Which I kinda put across to Him and He just said not to worry too much and that I already know His name and that I will know it later in time. Which was confusing because He was telling me I knew it already but not until later in my life.

So when I came across the Lam picture that was basically just an image of Him.. so I use the name Lam because its Crowleys drawing and by using that name people know what Lam is and where the picture is from. Really I should use the name Wallungunder.. which like the Lam said.. came to me later in life.. So Wallungunder is more accurate imo but I tend to use Lam more because its easy and I can have more fun with it.. ie the lion lays with the lam(cheap laugh but hey).. And I find it amusing when I find some Christians who use the name I AM.. it makes me think they know Him but usually I find they dont. lol

[MythMath]

My accountant's name is Leo Wallungunder... :eek:

[m1thr0s]

is he like...from a *small town in France*???

I've heard about these guys...

m1

[MythMath]

Kazahel,

I meant no personal disrespect for you or your beliefs...

I'm just generally irreverent... :p

[Kazahel]

Hey thats actually trippy with the Leo thing.

One of the other names He gave me though was the devil.. I remembered that one cause it was easy to. I rarely tell people that though because I know how it sounds, but He said in a joking manner that His name was also the devil and that some peope think of Him in this way and call Him that. Which we then had a laugh over and I told Him that they just dont know Him very well then. At that stage though I was alittle suspicious of Him and I started to think alittle more.. its hard to explain but I was quite a thief around that stage in my life and I started to think about stealing his blue triangle thing because I knew it was priceless and that it was better than a name to remember. Which is when it fell and I panicked and caught it for Him, but then time went backwards and it had never fallen and He laughed and we laughed over it. It was weird.

But I dont think of Him as the devil or anything.. I dont actually believe in the devil or evil really because I think more along the lines of everything is of God. I think He just meant that others call Him that who dont know.

[m1thr0s]

So...check this out. I was putting together a background tile for a new info-art image and decided to work with a fire element. But the best image I could find wasn't tileable so I converted it into a seamless tile using this little program I like to use for stuff like that. After it was finished I noticed that I felt like it was looking at me so I examined it a bit closer:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/fire.daemon.jpg

I'm not sure if anybody else can see this or not but it looks to me like a Lam character at the very top of the image with his hands clasped in front of his face, like in one of those martial arts bows people do...if you look carefully you can even make out his arms, elbows, shoulders etc...

just a trippy little whatever, but it reminded me of this thread...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Hahahaha! Yeah that is cool! Aliens are everywhere!!!

[m1thr0s]

just silliness of course, but pretty funny...they're in the machines!!!:eek:

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

Most people seem alien to me :eek: and they are everywhere.

There is no escape. We are surrounded.

[Kuroyagi]

he also has a cool respirator mask over his mouth with space for two mandibles below the chin, very focused thing.

[Kazahel]

Hey cool its like one of those ink blob things huh.

Well I dont really see what you's see at all. I see two main floating lambs facing each other(and two below) and a winged angel of fire standing between them with his arms raised. He raised them to raise the lambs maybe? So yeah.. thats the main image I see.. the tall fire angel and the four lambs.

See (http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/8459/firelambsgf0.jpg)

Do I get a gold star?

[Naomi]

No, he's making fun of us....he already controls half the universe, now the only thing left to do is to make crappy background images of the Inari Dragon gateway....(it's not seamless.)

Photoshop managed to not crash my computer for a few minutes so I laid these out for you Kazahel:

http://www.thetengu.com/abrahadabra/alien1.jpg
http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens/resource/inari02a.jpg
http://www.thetengu.com/abrahadabra/alien2.jpg

http://www.thetengu.com/abrahadabra/alien3.jpg

I don't know if the last one was intentional, if it was someone needs to be smacked, and then - wtf is up with the beaver/guinea pig/hamster? Yeah I see the meditating guy too...

Seriously though....if m1thr0s is making backgrounds and seeing aliens in them I think it's safe to say he's pulling your leg... ^_^

[Nalyd Khezr Bey]

Forgive my not really reading over this thread but I noticed a few ideas popping up about magical protection against "alien abductions", etc. How about deliberately inducing the "alien" experience using magical means? If I remember correctly I think even Whitley Strieber admitted once that he had played around with the Goetia (or some grimoire) before his experiences. His books are littered with occult references.

I might also mention that my very first deliberate but reluctant evocation was of "grey aliens" and it appearing succesful to me is what jump-started my full-on practice of Magick. I've talked about it in more depth elsewhere, like the old Occult Forums, so I think some of you might remember that little discussion. I don't really feel like typing the details up again.

As for whatever else you guys have been discussing; I'm not sure what the angle is but please continue.:confused:

[Naomi]

Yeah that is a good idea, I like that....how about also telling people about how to protect against evil aliens while really you're just giving them the keys and door to unlock access to archetypes you prefer to manifest on the planet through their minds?

Mind-jacking, so to speak....steer them to a better place.

Uh we're just goofing off I think. :tyes:

...is this it? By the way, I love how you bend reality Nalyd, it's very cool you know, I admire your finesse alot. :yes:

A Mistake I Have Been Making The following actually started out as a post in this thread (http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=14732) as a response to my own post there but it was so off topic that I opted to start a separate thread because I felt compelled enough to share this little piece of personal blah with you guys.http://www.occultforums.com/air/smilies/biggrin.gif Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd23
My first conscious effort to do something Magickally was attempting to evoke some "grey aliens" into manifestation using a mirror about seven years ago. Yeah, three of them showed up and it wasn't really cool but it did demonstrate to me what Crowley meant when he said "by doing certain things certain results will follow" and I only recently have re-approached this experiment with not so good results as back then when I had no clue what I was doing. A few years before that incident I had some similar spontaneous "magickal" things happen as a result of a combination of meditation and sickness that set me off but I don't count any of that as "first attempts" since it was seemingly accidental even though it went on to mean so much to me personally.

Personal revelations come from weird places and I thought about what I said in this post since posting it and I have realized a magickal mistake I have been making lately that I obviously already knew on a subconscious level and kind of even stated it in the above post. My lack of results in attempting to do this same thing recently was obviously due to the fact that the recent experiment served no purpose whatsoever and though it appears that my first attempt served no purpose on the surface the result of actually evoking these "aliens" into manifestation helped to replace my ignorance with a knowledge or context for these phenomena and to launch my conscious journey into actually practicing Magick. Had I not gotten the results that I did I might have just said "fuck all" to all of this Magick BS. I got those results then because I was clueless about any "proper" procedures of doing this, I just did it in ignorance but from the heart and it worked. I don't usually do evocation on the level of trying to bring something to visible appearance because I consider it an unnecessary use of energy for anything I do Magickally. Matter of fact, I think I evoke a lot more unconsciously than I do consciously.

[Kuroyagi]

oh yes recently we are all turning into one another it seems. ;)

or also called as: learning from one another.

[Nalyd Khezr Bey]

Naomi, that's not the original account of the incident that I had posted but it serves good enough for now. The first time I discussed it, before the very first hack of OF, I went into more details about what exactly I was doing at the time and why. I have since re-analyzed and re-interpreted that experience dozens of different ways as I gain more insight into what we as Magickians are doing. In much the way Robert Anton Wilson used to say, how I model that experience sometimes depends on who I'm talking to and/or the mood I'm in. At the time I first did it I was definitely trying to evoke "aliens" and that's the result I seemed to have gotten. Had I known more about the perspectives of Chaos Magick at the time I guess I could have evoked just about anything.:yes:

That is why I don't place a lot of importance on whether or not any of these phenomena really exist objectively or not as a lot of people continue to argue. What is important to me is how they change our perspectives, what kind of insights they lead us to, what types of evolutionary jumps they signal or create, their meaning, etc., hence the theme of this thread. I also caught someone mentioning above, maybe m1thr0s, that the "alien abduction" scenario doesn't seem to happen in far eastern cultures, like in India for example. Maybe they just have a different way of experiencing the same or similar phenomena. I think the alien model is very much a result of 20th century western mechanistic thinking. It may be the mask that was/is needed to shift the western collective assemblage point. Who knows?:p

Anyone up for playful experiments with the anal probe?:D Naomi?

[m1thr0s]

I think the alien model is very much a result of 20th century western mechanistic thinking. It may be the mask that was/is needed to shift the western collective assemblage point. Who knows?:p"stripped to the bone" is a term that always seems to spring to mind when I look at these kinds of images, viewed as archetypes of some kind. It's indicative of most *modernized* languages as well, english being a prime example. Distilled, reduced, prepped for maximum utility and minimum personality, our angels have lost their wings and our gods their charismatic regalia. So now we stare into the cold stark face of a still uncertain future. It just seems a little too obvious to dismiss to me...what you *will* is apparently what you *get*.

I wouldn't be too keen on doing an alien evokation necessarily but that's only because I would tend to look upon this as a group project and I typically work alone. Since I have no real need and nothing to prove or discover that I can't get along without, the operation could only be a half-enthusiastic effort. As a group working it might just be weird and dark and probably a tad volatile...which is also weird and dark...so what the hell...fun in its own way I imagine...But I'm situated poorly right now. When I do work in group I try very hard not to team up with a bunch of morons...been there, done that...got the brass ring, the priestess schlucking, the icky group hug and everything...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Anyone up for playful experiments with the anal probe?:D Naomi?

Cool great post, but that was the worst pickup line I have ever heard...

And why even bother asking...nobody else seems to these days...:dull:

In a more earthly sense, there is something weird going on with the real grey phenomenon, and I think they're quite possibly as material as Vladimir Putin or that cheeseburger down the street on the warming pad at McDonald's, but I wouldn't discuss it at length over the internet, maybe over tea...I've heard a lot of shit from military personnal and NDN's over the years - none of that Art Bell crap either, personal stories after knowing the people for years. I really don't welcome any of this stupid shit into my life, I hate talking about aliens, I'd prefer they stay in movie theatres or in anime with tentacles or something.

But yeah I don't really just jump to conclusions, I have to mull them over for a while (or get hit on the head) before I form a relatively firm opinion - I'm not a fundamentalist or anything. I'd prefer your reality over anything, Nalyd. So, let's hope you're correct then.:D

If I evoke them - they logically, shouldn't show up if they're not phantasms.....

[m1thr0s]

If I evoke them - they logically, shouldn't show up if they're not phantasms.....
yeah? that's new...so you mean if they aren't really connected to your own psyche they shouldn't really know when you're logging them in then?

that only works if magick doesn't also broadcast in frequencies they might happen to be able to pick up though, right? I mean, highly telepathic critters might be able to read you like a book just because your mind reads out like a book to them anyway...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I mean, In the past I've made it one of my pastimes to run around on the planet and kill as many as I could find - so if those are real aliens and not just some video game I'm running in my head then I wouldn't think they'd show up if they were smart or anything....because they'd probably pick up on my hostility unless I went mushin or something.

I do know there is a peculiar smell they are accompanied by - kinda like fresh asphalt or burning oil...I've only noticed smells accompanied by entities about five or six times.

They havn't shown up since I started attacking them so you know, psychologically, what would that mean - idk wot