A discussion on Tantra

[Kain]

This is an off-shoot thread aimed at general tantric discussion, originally proposed by our member, Kuroyagi:

kain you seem a knowledgeable guy in this field: I would be interested in wether the tantrics have made any reality shattering discoveries in the mystical field, or have run through some sort of progression or development over the hundreds of years (respectively if they have some core teachings and methods that are valid but havent changed that much), cause I remember m1thr0s mentioning that they -though having some good teachings- have calcified a bit. (sorry btw this is off topic, maybe we can make some general tantra discussion).

Personally, I think the tantric system of Kundalini Yoga (as I can't really speak of the less practical and more ritualistic aspects of Tantra, not being very knowledgeable about those) is quite direct and based on mechanical effects of the gross and subtle bodies, that being one of it's primary strengths and 'discoveries'. It composes a technical approach to dismantling the jiva (manifest individual) consciousness based on the anatomy of the body, both in gross and subtle terms, and proposes the following: Since it is observed that realizations and consciousness patterns of any sort have a direct modificatory effect in the formation of the subtle body's pranic flows, then affecting those flows willfully and directly and redirecting them accordingly would make an equally valid method to actually and immediately assuming direct realization of those states of consciousness as well.

I think that it offers exactly what it promises as long as the guidelines are followed, and although far from ultimately complete in it's mapping of the subtle anatomy (at least in it's formal and written form, since even though thousands of nadis and centres are recognised around the body, mention is made only of the 6-7 major routes and locations), it offers sufficient precision for Kundalini to be motivated and awakened and if that takes place, the anatomy naturally unveils itself before your eyes without further analytical scrutiny (that is the main characteristic of conscious dissolution, the invertion of our current conscious state, related also to what is in Vajrayana called the 'turning about of the deepest part of consciousness'). So I think that the crystalization of the doctrine is a healthy one for the most part, much like any trusted technique is patentized after enough scrutiny and one is left with a very technical and directly apllicable tool/system. In it's commonly described form, it is far from complete in terms of being the final word on subtle body work, although like I said, it is complete in bringing about it's desired effect and that effect is so intense and eye-opening in itself that it afterwards naturally takes point in widening one's perception further. So it is good to see Kundalini Yoga as a herald of Realization based on very technical and mechanically predictable applications, which is what any practical system ultimately aspires for, really.


Kain

[Naomi]

Yes that is a good description Kain. I also think one doesn't need to dedicate oneself to the dead parts of a belief system - though one can choose that of course. I have utilized whatever I wanted from various tantric systems without ever joining a lineage or even listening to everything that is taught. There are some basic principals to remember, but the most important aspect for me has been observation and independant study, drawing on all realms of human thought and evolution.

I suppose the only disadvantage is I rely on blind faith at times that the universe will 'catch me' if I fall but so far it's never failed to do so. For instance, imagine my surprise during my most recent crisis that I found Kain was logged on at exactly the right time to give me information on how to channel crown energy at a level I had never handled before.;)

After all, if such things were discovered thousands and thousands of years ago from out of nothing, what is stopping us modern isolated humans from discovering such things out of nothing/nature as well?

[Kain]

I suppose the only disadvantage is I rely on blind faith at times that the universe will 'catch me' if I fall but so far it's never failed to do so. For instance, imagine my surprise during my most recent crisis that I found Kain was logged on at exactly the right time to give me information on how to channel crown energy at a level I had never handled before.;)Heh...we all find ourselves in such places I think. However, due to the inherent power and directness of systems like this, it is important to learn to handle your own progress in ways that minimize polarities, i.e., know when to pursue and when to allow something to rest, learn your limits, strengths and weaknesses. The aim is the attainance of a truly frictinless and non-polarized state (not in the sense of the arbitrarily conceived and ultimately imperfect lack of motion, but in the sense of the transcendant). So even in the genuine pursuit of knowledge and transcendant realization, jumping in head first and hoping (or simply blindly believing) to come-out fine on the other side every time is ultimately a counter-productive behavior.
After all, if such things were discovered thousands and thousands of years ago from out of nothing, what is stopping us modern isolated humans from discovering such things out of nothing/nature as well?The important thing with these systems is that they have been subtly refined over generation after generation of teacher and disciple, so they offer invaluable fine-tuning advice in their given directions in a seemingly arbitrary fashion which may escape the eye of the inexperienced scholar. This is where genuine instruction and the presence of a qualified teacher comes in, although you are right that we should not forget the universality and inherent presence of all these things in our very nature, thus their ability to powerfully resurface through instinct, inspiration, contemplation, and experimentation.

Kain

[Naomi]

The important thing with these systems is that they have been subtly refined over generation after generation of teacher and disciple, so they offer invaluable fine-tuning advice in their given directions in a seemingly arbitrary fashion which may escape the eye of the inexperienced scholar. This is where genuine instruction and the presence of a qualified teacher comes in

That would be ideal wouldn't it? We don't have very many qualified ones in the world it seems. (Do you think any responsible teacher would advocate plumbing the depths of hell at the risk of having your soul eaten, dying, or going insane for the one in a million chance of recovering the lost paradise?)

So you're going to become a good teacher right Kain? ;)

[Kain]

That would be ideal wouldn't it? We don't have very many qualified ones in the world it seems. (Do you think any responsible teacher would advocate plumbing the depths of hell at the risk of having your soul eaten, dying, or going insane for the one in a million chance of recovering the lost paradise?)Quality has always been hard to find in this department, probably harder than any other. It's always been like that, and even more so nowdays where BS travels faster than ever. Still, I believe genuine contact with these things is never lost, as long as one is absolutely sincere in approaching them. The conditions may not always be ideal for us although there is always a 'furthering mode of action' for us I think, no matter where we find ourselves...
So you're going to become a good teacher right Kain? ;)Heh...you know, I have hardly scratched the surface of this tradition and am daily humbled and awed by the directness and profound completeness of the states it points to. I have a life of study ahead of me, a study that has hardly begun for me so I consider myself a sadhaka (spiritual aspirant/student) and will probably remain that way for a very long time...True knowledge and realization, Jnana, ever comes through introspection so the only thing any of us can be is students, as long as we are sincere with ourselves and our world.

Kain

[Naomi]

That would be an awful thing if the great mystery was easy to penetrate though, wouldn't it? I mean, there would be nothing to do with eternity!

Hopefully we will stay students too, because they say, when you cease to become a student of something you begin to rot. The only way to cease this I think is to be completely uncreated and have every particle in your being scattered into the totality of the tao. Even the uncreated absolute must learn something from shakti....even though clearly, the absolute tends to formulate lessons much more coherently.

My beliefs have been replaced so many times I've learned to never consider myself more than a student at any time, and that should continue for as long as I am still residing in a human body. If one keeps reminding one's self that pride cometh before the fall, and the fox steals the raven's cheese by flattering him, then there isn't too much danger of becoming lost in maya. (I think this is what happened to the tantric fellow Osho, he succumbed to hedonism and the deadly grasp of the beautiful yet poisonous jungle.)

But, still, humbling myself doesn't stop me from recognizing the divinity within others....

[Kain]

But, still, humbling myself doesn't stop me from recognizing the divinity within others....That's pretty much the only way to function in a teacher-disciple relationship without losing touch with the reality of things, too. A student-senior student relationship is the only one possible...

Kain

[m1thr0s]

That would be an awful thing if the great mystery was easy to penetrate though, wouldn't it? I mean, there would be nothing to do with eternity!According to the Tai Hsuan Ching, there is only one thing in the entire universe that is absolutely unattainable and that is the Great Mystery Principle itself. We can tap it all we like but we can never completely exhaust it...there will always remain some factor "infinite and unknown" we will never completely fathom...

I like that idea personally...makes immortality seem actually possible...otherwise I fear we are all destined to die of boredom at the end of all our attainments...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

That's pretty much the only way to function in a teacher-disciple relationship without losing touch with the reality of things, too. A student-senior student relationship is the only one possible...

Kain


On that point, here's a really good article on spiritual teachers in the Buddhist traditions and how they deal with the specific instances of human to human teaching. Both problems and proper behavior towards an instructor:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/eb_toc.html_1305527811.html

Of note they mention in the later chapters, that, while a pure buddha will express in pure language and always be understand by anyone, anywhere at anytime, an incarnated buddha will always have human flaws due to the very nature of being human. This often gets overlooked I think amongst many people fresh to this sort of thinking is that gurus are infallible, which is not true at all - and one should be suspect of someone who attempts to hide their human vices. (A number of church leaders come to mind)

As I've practiced, at first it was difficult for me to imagine any human could be divine, I disrespected everyone equally - humans simply seemed too stupid or stubborn. Then, I tried to see the godhood in a few select people, and scrutinized them for any signs of being a fake. After that (about 5-6 years ago) I tried to see the spark of divinity in every single being and person - that was hard! Later as I went more deeply into the chod practice and got up the courage to ask for the standard initiation from the dharma guardians, I became aware of the buddha nature of a great many unusual characters - Satanists and Christians alike, and their 'faults' only seemed to me to fit the archetype they were channeling through from the very core of their being. Now, very recently, it seems the realization of someone's godhood hits my like a floodlight in my face and I can't turn it off. :cool: (well I can, I just don't want to - I enjoy seeing these funny characters interact on the earthly plane)

[Naomi]

According to the Tai Hsuan Ching, there is only one thing in the entire universe that is absolutely unattainable and that is the Great Mystery Principle itself. We can tap it all we like but we can never completely exhaust it...there will always remain some factor "infinite and unknown" we will never completely fathom...

I like that idea personally...makes immortality seem actually possible...otherwise I fear we are all destined to die of boredom at the end of all our attainments...

m1thr0s

Yeah good point...ugh boredom! The horror, the horror!!!

[Kain]

That's a truly wonderful book, thanks a lot for providing that link Naomi!

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

Thank you for the explanations Kain! Somehow I was reminded of whats sometimes called the "larger heavenly circle/cycle" in Taoism: its basically starting at the end of spine and then the flow goes over the head and down again to the base- sometimes has 28 or more "points"/body-deities involved (in difference to the "minor heavenly cycle" (kan/li) that circles between the heart region and the kidneys).

But there are several differences it seems: to begin with Kundalini awakening seems to be quite an "event", meaning that its not common and that its more like the instant jump the ch'an/zen school of buddhism also talks about at lenght (is it?), yet you also say in the quote below that "it" also descneds again and then is more manifestational in nature. So the question would be: how "intentional" is it (I heard that it cant be willed to arise but that the chance of the arising can be increased by favourable practices and by creating a favourable environment for it), AND: does it "come" easier up again if it was already experienced? Do you think that there is a wide variety in how the awakening is felt by different practitioners?


The aspect of Kundalini's *descent* however, is a different subject, and it indeed is manifestational and formative in essence. This is the part where formation is naturally layed out once again in a conscious manner, increasing one's perception and ability to interact or influence it, although even in this case, this stage means the ceasing of Kundalini's manifestation and her return to latency (and the revitalization of the manifest flows of prana, being Ida and Pingala).


Another funnier q., or lets say Id be looking forward to your musings and general thoughts about this: are there already people born with an awakened kundalini, or on a higher "genetic"/energetic niveau, or are we all born with the same coiled serpent to begin with? (Id GUESS that the teachings would say something like this: that some of us have easier access to it according to previous karmic accomplishments [Id say this if I was an Indian teacher ;) ] ),

anyway funny that you also say that its a female serpent- haha- the Indians have an extra word for that?, must be some snake fanciers...:laugh: (again as an aside: the Chinese word for shaman (wu) though used unisexual even from Han times and earlier on, is actually the depiction of a female shaman...)

K.

[Kain]

Thank you for the explanations Kain! Somehow I was reminded of whats sometimes called the "larger heavenly circle/cycle" in Taoism: its basically starting at the end of spine and then the flow goes over the head and down again to the base- sometimes has 28 or more "points"/body-deities involved (in difference to the "minor heavenly cycle" (kan/li) that circles between the heart region and the kidneys).Interesting, I was unaware of that since Taoist Alchemy is not a field I have extensively inquired upon until now...thanks Kuroyagi!

But there are several differences it seems: to begin with Kundalini awakening seems to be quite an "event", meaning that its not common and that its more like the instant jump the ch'an/zen school of buddhism also talks about at lenght (is it?), yet you also say in the quote below that "it" also descneds again and then is more manifestational in nature. I am uncertain if it could be likened to that, since I don't know much about that school. It is certainly considered an "event" however, and it is the fruit of the practice rather than the object of it, in a sense. It is the deliverer to higher consciousness.
So the question would be: how "intentional" is it (I heard that it cant be willed to arise but that the chance of the arising can be increased by favourable practices and by creating a favourable environment for it)A very good question, I was in fact thinking that this should be mentioned as it is an important aspect of it all. Kundalini, cannot and should not be scrutinized with and willed to arise directly. Kundalini rising is the effect of the successful bringing about of a set of favorable factors that indirectly force the prana to be unable to anything else, *but* enter the Sushumna nadi (the spinal channel). So the practice does not handle Kundalini itself, but the pranic flow around the body, in order to force that flow to alter it's normally followed routes.

If one tries to forcefully have Kundalini ascend, the result is shortcircuits and burns, for the same reasons it cannot be in an awakening motion while manifestation is consciously retained. Scrutinizing with "it" presupposes a sustained polarity of cause and effect that negates it's dissolutional action. So, in the best of cases, nothing happens, in the worst, things explode.

Still, it is possible to bring about instant dissolution, or awakening 'on demand' if one is particularly knowledgeable on the practice, although that does not constitute a willed effect upon Kundalini, but a willed and direct effect upon the factors that have it necessarilly awaken.

AND: does it "come" easier up again if it was already experienced? Do you think that there is a wide variety in how the awakening is felt by different practitioners?It is said that it's ascent becomes easier through repeated practice, hence the ancient tantric saying "having drunk, having drunk, having again drunk" which reffers to the repeated practice of Kundalini work (which brings about the flowing of Amrita (http://www.google.gr/search?hl=el&q=define%3A+amrita&meta=)). As for different effects between practitioners, these are certainly there to an extent since different practitioners have different subtle body constitutions, strengths, and blockages to be overcomed in the process. Still, the process is quite uniform in it's totality once it gets under way I think, and this is because of the essential uniformity of the subtle anatomy.

are there already people born with an awakened kundalini, or on a higher "genetic"/energetic niveau, or are we all born with the same coiled serpent to begin with? Well, manifestation itself requires us to be endowed with a coiled serpent as a default. However, the ease with which the unmanifest aspect can be reapproached by us, and our instinctual understanding of this principle as well as our subtle body constitutiion and latent blockages necessarilly are different between individuals due to their karmic state. So both can be said to take place, I think.



anyway funny that you also say that its a female serpent- haha- the Indians have an extra word for that?, must be some snake fanciers...:laugh: (again as an aside: the Chinese word for shaman (wu) though used unisexual even from Han times and earlier on, is actually the depiction of a female shaman...)No, Sanskrit works extensively through adding suffixes to a given word-root to describe it's particular qualities, so the indication that the serpent is female is given by it's '-i' ending.

Interesting correlation with the shaman in Chinese. Still, it's important to note the difference of roles attributed to the male and female in the cosmology of the two countries, since the female is passive, heavy and obedient in the Taoist and Chinese traditionally, while the female is the possessor of activity in Indian systems, always driven, of course, by the immovable and trascendant male counterpart representing consciousness.

Kain

[Naomi]

Interesting, I was unaware of that since Taoist Alchemy is not a field I have extensively inquired upon until now...thanks Kuroyagi!

I am uncertain if it could be likened to that, since I don't know much about that school. It is certainly considered an "event" however, and it is the fruit of the practice rather than the object of it, in a sense. It is the deliverer to higher consciousness.
A very good question, I was in fact thinking that this should be mentioned as it is an important aspect of it all. Kundalini, cannot and should not be scrutinized with and willed to arise directly. Kundalini rising is the effect of the successful bringing about of a set of favorable factors that indirectly force the prana to be unable to anything else, *but* enter the Sushumna nadi (the spinal channel). So the practice does not handle Kundalini itself, but the pranic flow around the body, in order to force that flow to alter it's normally followed routes.


Hmmm...do you ever "run your orbits" Kain? One of my main practices in tantric meditation is doing the macrocosmic orbit up the front and down the spine. (You would try up the spine and down your front) and the microcosmic orbits - running the energy manually around each chakra and through the meridians of the joints....

It's not the more potent kundalini arousal, you're just pulling a little energy up and greasing your system...



Interesting correlation with the shaman in Chinese. Still, it's important to note the difference of roles attributed to the male and female in the cosmology of the two countries, since the female is passive, heavy and obedient in the Taoist and Chinese traditionally, while the female is the possessor of activity in Indian systems, always driven, of course, by the immovable and trascendant male counterpart representing consciousness. Both I think are correct... 2. Kun is described as being pretty dynamic to me in the I Ching anyways, earth+earth is a vibrant potent life force. It's responsive - responsive to what, exactly, and how does it respond? It's going to respond to the laws of heaven, in such a pure form, that could be a little scary depending on what the practitioner has laid out. You have to be cautious what kind of blueprints you have lying around your 'house'. It's going to respond just as powerfully to delusion as well....

Look at the character for Kun too, it's pretty mystic in its own right, on the left the strokes look like a sword embeded in the ground, and on the right one could make an argument that it looks like a primitive of three vertebrae and the spinal cord running through it.

Parvati is shakti too...and she's pretty submissive pink wearing princess, then again she turns into Kali....lol! Yet look who she's married to...if anyone can handle that kind of raw unbridled power I'm sure Siva could. He has a pretty firm grasp of reality due to his constant practices of meditation. Lucidity=control=power over Shakti.

Vishnu and Brahma on the other hand, their consorts seem like milktoast in comparison. Understandable - Brahma basically sucked in/as this creation and Vishnu is (was) limited by it considerably.


All the best,

Naomi Chan

[Kain]

Good points on the Indian-Chinese comparison Naomi, thanks. Hmmm...do you ever "run your orbits" Kain? Orbits should be *realized* on my view, rather than dictated, for the most part. They have been there prior to our knowledge of them, and continue to be there no matter what we do. The influence should focused on more openly fascilitating them or rather allowing them, which is a subtle but important difference, much like "visualization" differs from projection. So I would phrase it "becoming conscious of the flows in a more direct manner", which is something I in fact do.

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

Im not sure- maybe the macro- and microcosmic orbits (occult lingo?) are the same as the larger and minor kan li or heavenly cycles I referred to, anyway?

Yeah Kain its definitely worth I'd say to look into Taoist alchemy too, especially if filtered or viewed against the background of some of the mutational alchemy things on this board. (e.g. there are said to be 9 mental fields or compartements and 3 cinnabar fields on the body called the tan t'ian (dan tien: head, heart base regions). just an example I got reminded of by a recent thread where the thelemic number 9³ was used. when I see that Im reminded of this correlation, actually.)

Still, it is possible to bring about instant dissolution, or awakening 'on demand' if one is particularly knowledgeable on the practice, although that does not constitute a willed effect upon Kundalini, but a willed and direct effect upon the factors that have it necessarilly awaken.So naturally my next question would be: what are those factors? But maybe I should rather do some studying on my own from here- thanks for the inspirational replies!- and possibly this would eventually turn the discussion to your experiences Kain, so if its too indiscreet we can leave it at that.

And also thanks, I didnt know that Sanskrit was an agglutinative language (adding the -i), like Japanese.

About the wine "drink³"-quote I myself understand this both metaphorically- like you, but also concrete: dont forget that in a brahmanic context wine women and meat were often considered as impruities that were intentionally used for deconditioning in some sects (aghoris etc.).

The thing about the female male force is a very complicated topic on its own I think-, theres a big truth behind a paradox here; it yet again would call for another thread perhaps..:laugh:. Taoism often doesnt make a big difference between female and male practitioners in respect to their worth as a practitioner, yet youre right that the connotations the two cultures but on them are a bit different (but if we bring into it yin and/or earth, too- it really becomes complex). I have to think about this further, somehow Im reluctant to say much about it now cause my opinion and experience is a bit strange here. I somehow think that the male practitioner has to "become a woman" at some point and then change back again (also: woman as a form is a good shield and evasive strategy in a sense), but I dont mean like a drag queen or trans-gender or something. This specific topic to me is nearly as important as the question of (the beyond of) "life and death".

Naomi: the hanzi (Chinese character) apended to K'un has basically two parts: the one on the left is the determinating sign ("the general meaning/direction of it") and means: "earth" (element), the other one on the right is the picture of a lightning striking the earth that was originally the depiction of two hands (that pull something apart and [maybe] produce a clapping sound- thats why I think of it- the right part of the character- as a sign very close to dragons and their way of thinking: they make the lightning, but would probably say that the clapping sound, the thunder, is their dance or (joke): the sound that produced when they nonchalently crush a thunder bird with their tails. "so yes, they indicate, the thunderbirds actually make the thunder in a sense." lol.

[Kain]

Yeah Kain its definitely worth I'd say to look into Taoist alchemy too, especially if filtered or viewed against the background of some of the mutational alchemy things on this board. (e.g. there are said to be 9 mental fields or compartements and 3 cinnabar fields on the body called the tan t'ian (dan tien: head, heart base regions). just an example I got reminded of by a recent thread where the thelemic number 9³ was used. when I see that Im reminded of this correlation, actually.)Another interesting fact, thanks!
So naturally my next question would be: what are those factors? But maybe I should rather do some studying on my own from here- thanks for the inspirational replies!Well, the factors and their respective control is pretty much what Kundalini Yoga is all about as a system. Disciplined control is fascilitated in various fields for this specific purpose, such fields being an appropriate stance, breathing pattern, diet etc. . Still, the 'gist' of it all is essentially this: prana flows in the subtle body in certain ways and through certain routes when consciousness is directed outwards and residing in a manifest state of equilibrium. The factors checked in aiming to arrouse Kundalini, specifically negate this equilibrium from continuing and do not allow it's continuance through successfully arresting it's flow in those routes. Since prana has a natural tendency of movement and flow however, it does not abide this forced arrestedness and voluntarily alters it's followed routes in order to continue it's movement. Thus, since consciousness follows prana, consciousness also enters those alternate channels and routes.

So, the factors, through specified techniques, are primarilly aimed at controlling the flow of prana and altering the direction of the bodily vayus ("winds", the subtle currents in the body) in a way that fascilitates such a consciousness change (and the Kundalini awakening).

And also thanks, I didnt know that Sanskrit was an agglutinative language (adding the -i), like Japanese.And I didn't know that Japanese was one, either!

Yes, Sanskrit is amazingly agglutinative indeed, so much so in fact that often it doesn't matter much in which order the words are in a sentence since each word carries all required information about it's state within it already.

Taoism often doesnt make a big difference between female and male practitioners in respect to their worth as a practitioner, yet youre right that the connotations the two cultures but on them are a bit different (but if we bring into it yin and/or earth, too- it really becomes complex). Indeed. I was mainly reffering to the alchemical attributions of gender as seen by Tantric and Taoist philosophy respectively, rather than the actual practitioners though...

Kain