AMORC

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

I joind AMORC (Antiqus Mysticusque Ordo Rosae Crucis) (Rosicrucian Order) last month. Having been turned onto a book by M. Dale Palmer True Esoteric Traditions from a close friend, it seemed inevitable. Curious about other AMORC members here. I know a few of you so far. Interested in tying all this together on my quest for "light."

[Neshamah]

Congratulations C.A.!!!

I am confident that AMORC is a good Path for you. And, as I've said privately, anytime you need any help with anything having to do with AMORC, let me know.

Again, congratulations !!! :sunny::thumbsup::elephant::mcool:

Love and Light for a Peace Profound,

Abrah Neshamah, F.R.C.

[MythMath]

Huzzah, catsub... :yes:

[deviadah]

I've been thinking about joining these guys/gals... don't know if I will fit in though but I have always been yearning for the experience of participating in a lodge/order/group just to see what it is like and how long they will let me stay a member.

The problem with most orders, like this one, is that one of the rules to join is that they always ask you if you are a law abiding citizen. And here I will have to lie!

Some laws are simply meant to be broken... again and again!

:cool:

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

I suppose you could look at it from the persepective of whose laws are you breaking. Perhaps in the country or state you live in it is breaking the law, however, perhaps in (lets say Amsterdam) it may be perfectly legal. I certainly have broken many laws myself and the question never came up. The Rosicrucians to me is more of a path than a lodge per se, in as much as the knowledge they teach is mostly done outside of a governed lodge. I'm certain the rules they have are meant to keep out those whom wish them harm. There was a reason they went underground for a couple thousand years.

[Naomi]

A couple thousand years? Don't you mean a few centuries?

[deviadah]

I'm certain the rules they have are meant to keep out those whom wish them harm.

You are probably right. I wasn't thinking of cannabis though... it didn't occur to me that it was illegal when I posted... actually I am proud of how unbrainwashed I've become.

:laugh:

I will send in my application within the week and see what happens.

:cool:

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

A couple thousand years? Don't you mean a few centuries?


No, actually the Rosicrucians (Ancient White Lodge) has history dating back to around 1480 BC.

So, actually, it is around 3500 years old.

If you are talking about the time they went underground, that would be about 2000 years.

[Naomi]

Could you explain this please and point to references, that is not consistant with what I have read on the subject.

I found my stylus by the way (Why don't you email me??)

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

"The Rosicrucian movement, of which the Rosicrucian Order, AMORC, is the most prominent modern representative, has its roots in the mystery traditions, philosophy, and myths of ancient Egypt dating back to approximately 1500 B.C"

http://www.rosicrucian.org/about/mastery/mastery08history.html

[Naomi]

Pharaoh Thutmose III, who ruled Egypt from 1500 to 1447 B.C., organized the first esoteric school of initiates founded upon principles and methods similar to those perpetuated today by the Rosi­crucian Order, AMORC

No, I don't think so - this doesn't constitute the order being founded pre-christianity, and for other sources I'm getting that the order was actually founded in the mid 1000's by Christians. The anthropology of Egypt is attractive and shared by us all as occultists through Hermeticism and herbology. We also see the rigid Ceremonial Magick style ritual well-documented in Egyptian archaeology and anthropology. Similarly the elaborate praise-prayer form style is usually ripped from The Book of the Dead and other very old texts. Style and name is copycatted by numerous fans of the Egyptian revivial that firestormed the European continent at the height of the Napoleonic and Victorian eras.

I imagine if Mesopotamia was discovered earlier they would claim lineage from Sumer as well!

So what are your people here actually claiming founding -1500 B.C. on the basis of having some similarities to an ancient King who probably never even heard of "Rosicrucianism"?

That's absurd! :laugh:


From the "Fama" and "Confessio" we gather the religious opinions of the Rosicrucian Fraternity, and classify them as follows:--

a. They acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
b. Man is born into life by the power of God, falls asleep in Jesus, and will rise again through the Holy Spirit.
c. They acknowledge a personal devil, the old enemy, who "hinders every good purpose by his instruments."
d. They "use two Sacraments, as they are instituted with all Formes and Ceremonies of the first and renewed Church."
e. It follows from this that they believe the Lutheran Reformation restored the Christian Church to its primitive purity.
f. They consider "that from the beginning of the world there hath not been given to man a more excellent, admirable, and wholesome book than the Bible," which is "the whole sum" of their laws.
g. They call the pope Antichrist, a blasphemer against Christ. They execrate him, and look forward to the time "when he shall be torn in pieces with nails." They foretell his "final fall," with the assurance of Brothers the prophet, and in the terminology of Mr Grattan-Guiness.


The Real History of the Rosicrucians (http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/rhr/rhr16.htm)

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

I think you are playing a semantic game here N. I agree that the order AMORC is not the same "literally" as the ancient White Lodge, however, it's entire foundation are the teachings therein. The teaching I'm privy to mention nothing of Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, nor do they acknowledge any personal devil. I think YOUR intel is misleading you. I wish not to start an argument here over such a trivia. I could probably come up with supporting documentation that the moon is made of green cheese too!

I'd suggest further study for you, and, that we stay topic.

[Naomi]

A semantic game? Are you kidding me? I just saw you state the Rosicrucian Order is about 3500 years old! Now you're backpedaling and suggesting I'm playing games? I think it's the other way around.

The Wiki article states it was founded by German Protestants around 1500, I posted a book that supports this and the wiki article has a reference list a few dozen cited pieces long - you post one link to the order itself that makes claims easily refuted. Hardly trustworthy, if I believed everything everyone said about themselves on the basis of word alone I'd be really fucked up.

Your trying to divert attention from the fact that you made a pretty far out allegedly *factual* proclamation that your order is 3500, now can you back this up or are you going to start going on about invisible pink unicorns next? I really thought you made a slip with the thousand versus century comment but you need to cough up the goods man or I'm going to call you on percieved bullshit...no one is immune, not even m1thr0s and Mutational Alchemy...Anibis and Thoth Count...

What further study would you reccomend, nice little decoy there...your order isn't 3500 years old and a quick survey of a few texts show that this is the general consensual opinion outside of your order.

What makes this different from Scientology or any other belief based cult?

Don't talk down to me either, I'm getting sick of that shit...who the fuck do you think you are to suggest I "further study" for myself? I just GAVE you the examples I studied within a half hour's reading which refutes your claim. If you're so familiar with your order as you suddenly claim to be you would have a counterpoint, this is a discussion forum.

Furthermore I would suggest you treat me with a little more respect in the future regarding this topic, if you hadn't noticed, I could if I wish, bring down the entire order piece by piece intellectually and magickally, if we were to compare ounce for ounce and so on....I hold magickal lodges and orders of any kind to the same fucking scrutiny I would anything else - if that sets a few cockroaches on fire then so be it...

I hear you out there. It isn't a contest? It is. Rosicrucians, Thelemites, OTO, Freemasonry -everything earthly, they're all parasites. They are not standing on the threshold, they are not furthering the great work, nor are they reaching out to universe itself except to fondle it like some groping babe. Everytime I encounter one of them in life, on the internet, in stories from a friend, I'm hearing some sort of bullshit that turns me off to the whole idea of orders. They're disgusting and reak of the herd.

Look at the Catholic Church, for instance. This was started with perhaps, good intentions but it became the machinery of darkness and disease for an entire age. The model simply does not work. It's a false path. It produces nothing and succeeds short of any meritable goal. The only way to salvage the human race and enviroment is through independant research, something scientists have been doing for ages now!

We're not in the dark at all, it's the occult orders who are living in the dark caves of mind.

You shouldn't feel offended CS, if your order is all you claim it to be. If it's got that kind of lineage and knowledge you should be godamned enlightened by now, shouldn't you? The illusions of samsara distract the mind, but life passes quickly, like a candle. There simply isn't time for this shit.

[Naomi]

Another way you can tell how futile this system is, is by how people *in* the orders - even the little piddly shit orders like Order of Nine Angles or Temple of Set, easily dismiss outsider's opinions simply because they are not a member of the order....it's a fucking disease man, it kills critical thinking and wraps you in weird frickin illusions about life, death, everything...

I'd like to take a big fat Occam's razor to the whole idea of occult orders in general...Abrahadabra.com is a magickal "order" for xst's sakes, arising naturally and without force and rigidity....is that not obvious? Of course some people just love rules rules rules and regulations, that's why dominatrixes get paid big bucks I guess...

[Jacob]

This reminds me of a local fellow who tried to tell me the Golden Dawn as an order and system/curriculum started back in Atlantis.

So many groups claim "lineage", either directly or "in spirit," to so many past so-called "ancient" orders that it's tough to call bullshit anywhere. I think this stems from the idea that these groups study systems that were laid down thousands of years ago in Egypt, Greece/Eleusis, Sumer, and so on. That, combined with the elitist mind-set of these groups, seems to stimulate a holier-than-thou attitude. I see this consistently amongst Golden Dawn folks around here who love poking fun at other groups, systems and even religions, and then in the temple have the nerve to tell an initiate "let me advise you never to ridicule or cast criticism upon the form of religion professed by another, for what right have we to desecrate what is sacred in another's eyes?"


So, according to the so-called R.R et A.C:
"Know then, oh aspirant, that the Mysteries of the Rose and the Cross have existed from time immemorial, and that the rites were practiced and the
wisdom taught in Egypt, Eleusis, Samothrace, Persia, Chaldea and India, and in far more ancient lands. The story of the introduction to these mysteries into Medieval Europe has thus been handed down to us."
"In 1378 was born the Chief and originator of our Fraternity in Europe. He was of noble German family, but poor, and in the fifth year of his age was placed in a cloister where he learned both Greek and Latin. While yet a youth, he accompanied a certain Brother P.A.L. on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land, but the latter, dying at Cyprus, he himself went to Damascus. There was then in Arabia a Temple of the Order which was called in the Hebrew tongue 'Damkar,' that is, the Blood of the Lamb. There he was duly initiated, and took the mystic title Christian Rosenkreutz, or Christian of the Rosy Cross. He then so far improved his knowledge of the Arabian tongue that in the following year he translated the book 'M' into Latin, which he afterwards brought back with him to Europe. After three years, he went on into Egypt, where there was another Temple of the Order. There he remained for a time still studying the mysteries of nature. After this, he traveled by sea to the city of Fessa, where he was welcomed at the Temple there established, and he there obtained the knowledge and the acquaintance of the habitants of the elements, who revealed unto him many of their secrets."
"Of the Fraternity he confessed that they had not retained their wisdom in its primal purity, and that their Qabala was to a certain extent altered to their religion. Nevertheless, he learned much there. After a stay of two years he came to Spain, where he endeavored to reform the errors of the learned according to the pure knowledge he had received. But it was to them a laughing matter, and they reviled and rejected him, even as the prophets of old were rejected. Thus also was he treated by those of his own and other nations when he showed them the errors that had crept into their religions. So, after five years residence in Germany, he initiated three of his former monastic Brethren, Fraters G.W., I.A. and I.O., who had more knowledge than many others at that time. And by these four was made the foundation of the Fraternity in Europe."

[deviadah]

Nothing is new, everything is old!

Especially the stupidity of the human race!

:cool:

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

Naomi:

Firstly, I'm not offended. I simply think that you are misreading my intentions. The knowledge passed down through AMORC IS, at least, 3500 years old. I'm not sure you know what those teachings are. I think you touch many of them on a daily basis with the things YOU are working with.

As far as you being able to bring it all down...Go for it! I'm the master of MY Universe and you only have power if I give it to you!

I've never talked down to you and just because you are in a pissy mood last night you think the first article you read is gospel and can tear down my system. I don't give a shit about the "Order"! I'm only concerned with the content therein. The order can go fuck themselves.

ABRAHADABRA is no order! it is a place for people to express ideas, postulate theories, and for Mutational Alchemy to have a voice where those who seek it may find it.

It is NOT a contest unless you make it one. I have nothing to contest myself. I am seeking my path....you are seeking your path.

The teachings are timeless. THAT was my point. You are going to argue THAT with me? Come on. Every thing discussed on this site is OLD news. Humans just have a hard time remembering what they already know!

"Traditionally, the AMORC version of Rosicrucianism traces its origin to the mystery schools or secret schools of learning established in Egypt during the reign of Pharaoh Thutmose III, about 1500 B.C. These schools were formed to probe into "the mysteries of life" - in other words, natural phenomena. Over centuries of time, these Mystery Schools gradually evolved into real centers of learning and from Egypt, they spread into Greece, and thence into Rome. During the Middle Ages they were concealed under various names due to the prevailing circumstances of the times."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMORC

I might point out that AMORC and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternitas_Rosæ_Crucis are NOT the same thing!

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

You are probably right. I wasn't thinking of cannabis though... it didn't occur to me that it was illegal when I posted... actually I am proud of how unbrainwashed I've become.

:laugh:

I will send in my application within the week and see what happens.

:cool:

I was just using that as one example. I don't think it will become an issue regardless of your law breaking. Unless perhaps it involves murder....

[m1thr0s]

Naomi...you're coming off like a psycho-grenade for no apparent reason. Try to put a little distance between your points and your feelings please or this will simply become a pointless bash-fest, unfairly one-sided and a bad precedent for future discussions.

Many of your points are good ones...leave personal attacks completely out of it and your position will only be the stronger.

I would have to agree that the kinds of claims so many groups try to make regarding their unbroken roots into antiquity are confusing at best and at worst have become a sad cliché. Since the Abrahadabra Institute is rooted in many core principles that can be dated at least as far back as predynastic China, I suppose I could claim an unbroken lineage to antiquity going back at least 6000 years...but what exactly is the point? It seems like this is simply a way of trying to assert an authority that can never really be proved or disproved, since if someone manages to disprove it logically, we just switch gears to the metaphorical or - as in some cases I have seen - actually resort to other-worldly connectivity via the astral realms or something...

Many religions do this...it's not at all uncommon. The Bon is not content to be recognized as a 5000+ year old religion for instance...they instead assert themselves to be over 30,000 years in continuous circulation. The Catholic Church of course goes all the way back to the garden of Eden so who knows how old that is...at least as old as Sumer in any case...apparently an organization's age does not really say much about its actual relevance in the here-and-now.

So why then do they do this...why is it so common an assertion? One really obvious answer would be that people fall for this stuff so easily...they even seem to demand it on certain levels as a means of granting themselves permission to believe in something beyond themselves. If that's all it is then we might as well just call it a marketing strategy...since that is how it all plays out.

m1thr0s

[deviadah]

Unless perhaps it involves murder....
:laugh:

No, just general insubordination!

;)

[m1thr0s]

just as an aside (reflecting upon bonism), the word *Yung-Drung* technically means *without beginning - without end* and Yung-Drung Bonism is said to be the oldest form of Bonism itself, rooted in a symbol and subsequent traditions reflecting this.

I wonder that we have not lost something down through the ages in trying to build upon the traditional, when the traditional itself is trying to build upon the traditionless...the timeless...the *before* and *after* of space and time continuum...it seems so like a human impulse to want to place limitations on things right at the very beginning and thus qualify them in a more competitive sort of environment, but at what cost?

I think that in a strange sort of way we are gradually coming back to the notion of building upon the *traditionless* which enters into the realm of pure principle itself...traditions come and go...only these first-principles can claim a genuine Yung-Drung status...

m1

[Naomi]

ok...sorry...sorry m1thr0s :(

[m1thr0s]

thanks Naomi...I'm hardly squeaky-clean myself but I have definitely learned that when I let myself get emotionally defensive I also become rationally overextended...good to ask yourself, if I absolutely had to back up a notch...could I? If the (truthful) answer is no...you've gone too far...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Alright, I'll try not to do it again. I'm not really that emotional about it though. It's just a silly debate thing I have....

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

N

I apprecitate and hope you continue to bring it...as an outside check is always a great way to self-balance. Debate is good.

:)

[MythMath]

Well then I say, debate is a bad thing... :p

[Frater Yechidah]

AMORC, as we have it today, is definitely a post-Christian creation. Whether or not there was an older traditional it was based on, or whether or not oral tradition kept it going in a different form for thousands of years before it, what we have now, what we call AMORC, is a lot more recent, and textual evidence only supports this.

That doesn't dismiss the possibility of an older tradition. But we have to be careful with our claims, as many Orders, groups, and individuals claim an older heritage to their system in order to give it greater validity - such as Qabalah's claims for 2nd Century origins, claims that Gospels were actually written by the apostles when most were written a 100 years or more later, and then the Golden Dawn's whole Cipher Manuscript debacle.

Does knowing this dismiss the validity of the system itself? No. Not in the least. If you look closely you'll see that nearly every major group does it - it seems to be part and parcel of creating an Order.

I, for one, am a fan of AMORC, but not because it claims to be really old.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Frater Yechidah]

As an aside, my own personal conviction is that Rosicrucianism started in the Renaissance (and I would even go so far as to see that John Dee could be the father of it, or at least one of its main influencers). I can point to a few things that support this, but there's no hard evidence either way.

As for the teachings it contains, well - they're obviously older. For one, the Qabalah is a huge part of it (as we see from the manifestos), and that has origins from at least the Middle Ages, if not before. We also have alchemy and Hermeticism, with textual evidence for 400CE at least, so we know that at least that part of the Rosicrucian tradition is older still. And that doesn't even touch upon the things like "Gnosis" (whether it was called such or not), which was more than likely something that traditions 4,000 years ago utilised/taught/etc. But I'm never going to claim that Gnosticism, for example, is 4,000 years old.

Interesting topic, despite the steam...

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[m1thr0s]

AMORC always sort of struck me as the Bahai of occultism...so long as they continue in this vein I don't really care how old they are personally. I'm not much of a joiner but it seems AMORC has done a fair amount of good and I am not aware of any overtly negative aspects at all...

It's possible to expect too much of such organizations...we wouldn't expect the PTA to solve all the problems with the public education system and religious groups do not ultimately resolve all matters of spiritual development in all persons. It's just not realistic to expect it. Whatever their claims may be, I think it's pretty apparent that these are esoteric allusions, not intended as technical historical fact.

m1