Dark Qabbalah

[DocHolliday]

The qabbalistic tradition, as it exists today within both Hebraic and Hermetic circles is a means by which one may attain a level of prophecy known as the ruah haqqodesh (lit: the spirit of holiness, understood as the Divine Will, or Holy Guardian Angel), and re-unite themsleves with En Sof. Part of this is the process of finding the fallen sparks hidden within the Qelippoth and restoring them to their rightful place among the Sefiroth. This process is known as Tiqqun Ha'olam (restoring the world) and is analogous to the Abramelin Operation, in which the mage calls forth all his inner daemons and binds them to his will, thus transforming the "evil" into agents of "good." Contemporary Qabbalah consists of two forms: Qabbalah Iyyunith (Contemplative Qabbalah), which is a philosophical excercise, focused on enhancing the religious experience, and Qabbalah Ma'asith (Practical Qabbalah), which is, in a nutshell, magic. Within the practical Qabbalah, there are two traditions: Ma'aseh Merkabah (the work of the [Divine] charriot) and Ma'aseh Bereshith (the worl of creation).

Merkabah mysticism is based on the experiences recorded in the prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. In essence, it may be considered a form of shamanism, and at times relies on aescetic techniques. On the other hand, explorations on the work of creation are thaumaturgic in nature, as they act directly upon creation in an attempt to bend reality to one's will. The consensus of tradition is that these secrets were first given to Adam by the angel Raziel. However, there is little within the corpus of Jewish tradition (that I am aware of) to support this. If anything, it's a concept created to justify the way Qabbalah would come to impact Jewish life. Conversely, the Talmud, 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and other texts state that the "fallen" angels Azazel (Sammael) and Shemyaza taught the children of Cain (who is considered the progenitor of those of "witch blood" in Luciferian Witchcraft) the magical secrets of creation.

Thus, (and I know this has been quite simplified), if one has the persistence to delve deeply into Ma'aseh Bereshith and has the fortitude to peel away the layers of masques, one finds an apotheosistic tool which taps into the very nature of Choas itself in the Supernal Womb of En Sof.

[Anibis]

Okay, so, why 'Dark Qabalah', and what is your stance on the Tzaddikim, and the Tikkun?
-Ibisis

[DocHolliday]

I suppose I should give a little background information about myself in order to provide a clear answer to the question. As a Jew, I consider the conitnuity of my people and our traditions of extreme importance. While I'm not orthodox by any stretch of the imagination, I realize that Jewish law its associated lifestyle have preserved the Jewish people in the face of things which have annihilted other cultures. Jewish law is a force to be reconed with, and one which I hold in high esteem. Thus, I do attempt to follow its precepts, according to the philosophical tradition presented in the Talmud and preserved by the sages of the Geonic era. This does include some of what would later be absorbed into Qabbalistic tradition, as reference is made to both Ma'aseh Bereshith and Ma'aseh Merkabah. However, the understanding of these two in the Talmudic-Geonic tradition is that of physics and metaphysics (respectively). The early qabbalistic school was that of the prophets themselves, and produced the Hekhaloth texts, the Bahir, and the Sefer Yezirah. Later, with the composition of the Zohar, and similar texts (e.g. Shi'ur Qomah), Qabbalah would change and would negatively affect Judaism. A few groups would remain stalwart and refuse to compromise Judaism. I belong to one of those groups.

As skilled as people might be in using Jewish law to harness the sorcery taught by Azazel and Shemyaza and transforming it into "Qabbalah," the truth remains that it's power has been stripped, to some degree. I used the term, "Dark Qabbalah," because it's roots lie within the darkness of Luciferian Gnosis. It is the path of Cain and Lillith, it is the secret of Tubal-Cain. Qabbalah has compromised Halakhah (Jewish law), and vise-versa. There is a reason why I keep those two aspects of my life somewhat separate, with my "nightside" being Qabbalah in the process of being restored to its primal and chaotic nature and my "dayside" being Halakhah in the process of being restored to its pristine, philosophical form. Were I a person who followed the Right-Hand Path, I would work towards Tiqqun Ha'olam. Since I am not, however, the tiqqunim (plural form of tiqqun) I engage in are those geared towards the revivification of the Cainite essence within my Self, the re-integration of the scattered light of Sammael (in the Qelippoth), and repairing the breach between Cain and the Earth (natural forces).

My view of zaddiqim is not mystical at all. A zaddiq, to me, is simply that, a righeous person. Martin Luther King, Jr is as much a zaddiq as R. Aqibah, Onqelos, or R. Obadyah Yosef (former Rishon Lezion). This goes back to the Talmudic-Geonic approach of philosophical rationalism as opposed to the mystical approach of post-Lurianic Qabbalah.

[Anibis]

Very nice. I find this interesting. I'll look more into what you have written about Cain, in other threads before I come back to it, but I'l like to know a little about what you think about the Sabbatian apostasy? You speak highly of the Law, and yet, it would seem that in order to merge with the Ain Soph, one would have, ultimately to leave it behind. Is the law, essentially a Merkabah, which like the 'vehicles' or rafts of Buddhist thought, serves to bring the people across the abyss, where they can leave it by the banks, or is there some other way of handling this. It's funny. I keep getting taken for a Jew. I have a dark beard, and just got a hat that seems to clinch it for people. Ah well.
-Ibisis-
P.S. It just occured to me that the Sabbatian thing might be more about 'crashing the boat' or sinking it while it's still in the water, as opposed to taking it across. What do you think?

[DocHolliday]

Shabbetai Zevi was a heretic, pure and simple. Not only was he a false messiah, but he also converted to Islam and caused others to follow in apostacy. One of his successors, Jacob Lieb Frank would do the same, converting to Catholicism instead of Islam. The only good to stem out of Shabbetai's apostacy, IMHO, was that some Jews were shocked back to their senses and realized that post-Lurianic Qabbalah was not something which should have a place in Halakhah.

Yes, I do speak highly of the Law. Keep in mind that as a Jew, I operate from a non-mystical perspective. There is no desire or drive to merge with En Sof, just as there is no pressing need for a Qabbalistic Tiqqun Ha'olam. I would not call Halakhah another form of the merkabah. Rather, I would consider it a philosophical process by which one may take the ideal and actualize it within the current world of experience. If you want a detailed view of that process, I suggest the book, Halachic Man by R. Soloveitchick.

[Ðanisty]

Doc started a great thread about Cain awhile back that you may be interested in:
http://www.forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=90

[Alarum]

I know you have spoke to me about how the actual diagram of the Tree in your specific tradition being different, but what are the actual philosophical differences?
How much has Hermeticism damaged the true meaning of qabbalah?

I talk obviously from a perspective where all I have read or learned about qabbalah is from a Hermetic source.

[m1thr0s]

How much has Hermeticism damaged the true meaning of qabbalah?
I'm not going to try to answer this question from Doc's position (obviously) but I do think the question itself is framed incorrectly. Hermeticism itself stems primarily through the Mystery schools of ancient Greece and Egypt and may stretch even further back than this (stark parallels to be found in Babylonian, Sumerian, etc). We know almost nothing about the Heirophants of Ancient Greece responsible for the Rites of Eleusis for a period of many uninterrupted centuries, just as one example. But what we seem to have seen occuring throughout European Hermeticism (mainly) is that more contemporary "Hermeticists" have borrowed heavily from many Qabbalistic sources and subsequently embellished them beyond recognition in certain instances. It is difficult to avoid the appearance of antisemitism in much of this activity, although, in truth, all the mystery schools have borrowed against each other at one time or another and Hebrew Qabbalah is no exception. The problem exists more as a matter of deliberate misrepresentation at particular times and places than any kind of general competition between Hermeticism and Qabbalism in total...at least from what I have been able to gather.

But it does make it difficult to be certain of almost any assertions we may hear being put forward in the name of Qabbalah in general. I am of the general opinion that Hermetic Philosophy needs to redefine itself and return as much as possible to its original roots which can actually be traced a lot better through Pythagorianism than it can through Hebrew Qabbalah. Still, when the matter turns to Thebes and the kinds of fusing of metaphysical systems we seem to find there, even East Indian and East Asian elements are visibly present influences...so it's not an easy task redefining Hermeticism at this point. Even so, I think this has to happen...or simply will happen of necessity itself if people are going to make any real advances of any kind built upon so-called Hermetic philosophy.

m1thr0s

[DocHolliday]

I cannot and will not say that Hermeticism has "damaged" the meaning of qabbalistic thought and tradition. My opinion is that Hermeticism's "flaw," if it may be called such derives its nature from the fact that it has never drawn from the Hebraic tradition. It draws from the so-called "Christian" Qabbalah [sic], which in and of itself is something bastardized. Christian scholars attempted to use qabbalistic teachings as an apologetic basis for their own theology and thus convince Jews to abandon their faith in favour of Christianity. The Zohar, especially, was a favoured tool of Christian scholars who chose this course of action. A general lack of understanding (and most especially a grave amount of ignorance regarding the Hebrew languag) only served to further the loss of recognizable traits within the emergent, "Hermetic" Qabbalah. Syncretizing these borrowed elements with concepts taken from other faiths (e.g. Hinduism) have simply obfuscated matters more.

[m1thr0s]

Syncretizing these borrowed elements with concepts taken from other faiths (e.g. Hinduism) have simply obfuscated matters more.you mean like the fact that the Hermetic word for "spirit" is "akasha"...a sanskrit word for "sound" traditionally assigned to the 5th chakra?

It goes on and on, that's for sure. I think the only solution is to begin a general campaign of cultural awareness within Hermeticism itself. It may not catch on right away, but it will produce much keener Hermeticists one at a time and this will have its impact in due course...

We just need to develop the habit of asking ourselves where does this word or concept originate? Is our intended usage the same or not the same? If it is not the same, we need to acknowledge that. Revisionism is the bane of Fusionism and it hits us where we least expect it...every time.

m1thr0s

[DocHolliday]

I don't mean the words themselves, I mean the actual concepts, such as chakras and what not.

[m1thr0s]

I don't follow you Doc...Hermeticism has misrepresented chakras? In any case I don't feel like it's accurate to say that Hermeticism has been an apologetic form of anything...that may depend on who we are talking about though and when. It is intrinsically syncretic, this is true but I really don't believe in the idea of a "pure" religion or philosophy anyway...they are all syncretic on some level. So is art, for that matter...science...most things really...

m1thr0s

[DocHolliday]

I am not saying that Hermeticism has misprepresented chakras. What I am saying is that it's so syncretistic that it loses much of what it borrows from. I'm not sure if that made sense...

[m1thr0s]

I think I do understand that but it seems to me what we are really talking about is intellectual mediocrity in general and not so much anything having to do with syncretic method, if we can call it that...and I think we sort of do have to look at how people typically go about "distilling" data outside their immediate frame of reference. There are certain dangers involved in this but no one ever really seems to address it...very few real scholars in this area who are trained well enough to communicate the proper techniques or potential hazards etc...

On a personal level I think you can only try to be aware of the risks and maybe develop some sort of checks and balances in your own chunking processes...it's almost always a matter of scrutinizing context in my experience at least, so being aware and respectful of diverse contexts is a good starting point...

m1thr0s

[HobGobliRob]

I really don't believe in the idea of a "pure" religion or philosophy anyway...they are all syncretic on some level. So is art, for that matter...science...most things really...

m1thr0s

My own work with the Kaballah ( I don't argue the spelling), is not the "purest or dogmatic" but my intentions are sincere. I ve studied from freemasonry, tarot , and all the other usual sources. But in the end, the fruit of my labor has produced for me a three dimisional, gemstone atom shaped, cube-octahededon like device with 144 arcana (instead of 22) ,12 spheres instead of 10. Its like a globe for my psyche. It filled for me a lot of things that seemed to be missing in the traditional wisdom. Its hard to put all the work in this small space. So im being brief. All the "greats " were experimentors.

[m1thr0s]

All the "greats " were experimentors.indeed...with or without anyone else's stuffed-shirt endorsements...for some of us, necessity is the only opinion we give a flying fuck about...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Sounds groovy...

Got any diagrams...?

CG animations...?

[Anibis]

My own work with the Kaballah ( I don't argue the spelling), is not the "purest or dogmatic" but my intentions are sincere. I ve studied from freemasonry, tarot , and all the other usual sources. But in the end, the fruit of my labor has produced for me a three dimisional, gemstone atom shaped, cube-octahededon like device with 144 arcana (instead of 22) ,12 spheres instead of 10. Its like a globe for my psyche. It filled for me a lot of things that seemed to be missing in the traditional wisdom. Its hard to put all the work in this small space. So im being brief. All the "greats " were experimentors.

Oh, very interesting, I hope to chat with you in the future as regards this. I have similarily come up with an octahedron shaped 'resonator' for the Tarot. I discuss it here (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=3321&postcount=2). I use 23 Trumps, here (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=2939&postcount=15). I have developed a tarot which is basically divided into two 'books'. One of 93 components, the other of 39. The total is 132, Which is of course QBL. All of this stuff is in accordance to a little numerological 'bow tie' that I call the abrahadabra key (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=167).
I'd love to hear how your model works. Any schematics?
-Ibisis

[DocHolliday]

Holy ressurection, Batman!

One thing I've concluded is that working exclusively within a Qabbalistic framework allows one to dispense of tools, ritual chambers, and just about every affectation within magical work. When peeling back the layers of halachah (Jewish law) which have been used to masquerade the rawest essence of Qabbalah, one encounters a system of direct manipulation. The realization that Sammael himself is En Soph Or, and that a life lived according to Qabbalistic principles allows one to liberate the form of Sammael from his prison, and reconstitude En Soph Or within the self in it's ideal: pure, unfettered balance without submission to any stricture. The seeds of Sammael and Adam are within all people, it is simply a matter of awakening the fire which will burn away the earth.

[Darkwater]

How does the "Dark Kaballah" sit with the Kabalistic "Grande Plan of Universal Causes"

[DocHolliday]

How does the "Dark Kaballah" sit with the Kabalistic "Grande Plan of Universal Causes"

There is no "Grand Plan" within the core of Qbbalah, Hebraic or otherwise. Hassidic teachings, stemming as they do from the school of Yishaq Luria may believe that there is a design behind it all, but such is not evident in the basic texts (i.e. Sefer Yesirah and the Hechaloth).

Furthermore, when one looks outside the canon, one sees indications that the Qabbalistic secrets were handed down not by the angel Raziel, but by beings that would later be known as shedim (demons).

The early ba'ale shem (masters of the name) weren't pious individuals.

[rzk]

Anyone interested in the dark side of the Qabala: the Qliphoth should check out the book
"Qabala, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic" by Thomas Karlsson.

Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic is a unique practical introduction to magic. The main thread of the book is the exploration of the Qliphoth and the dark mysteries which have for so long been a repressed part of western esotericism. Instead of ignoring and denying the dark side, the author reveals, step by step, how man can get to know his Shadow and, through this, reach a deeper knowledge of the Self. By exploring and not by repressing the Shadow it can be transformed from a destructive force into a creative power.

The book deals with the problem of evil, the symbolism behind the fall of Lucifer and man’s creation process according to Qabalistic philosophy.

The theories that are presented in this book are also linked to practice. Several examples of rituals, meditations, magical exercises and occult correspondences can be found within. Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic contains more than one hundred demonic sigils and pieces of art that were created specifically for this book. A unique collection of all the sigils from the classic grimoires Lemegeton: The Lesser Key of Solomon and the infamous Grimorium Verum are also included.


http://www.theajnaoffensive.com/ajnabound/images/embossed_cover.jpg




Another good book is of course Nightside of Eden, by Kenneth Grant:

http://www.fieldsbooks.com/fields/images/items/200x1000/A2842.JPG

[Darkwater]

Within the core of the grande plan is the point where all is art or green,arising from the culmination of ten layers perfectly compounded to form the core of the chariot,from there new layers are applied ten in total until you are complete & ready to link with others.

Love this thread,by the way.

[sethur]

I would not call Halakhah another form of the merkabah.

Blimey, does anybody? I have been aware for 23 years of the ignorance of Jewish tradition displayed by non-Jewish "Cabalists" but that takes the biscuit!

As for a previous post: Cain and Lilith? Azazel and Shemyaza? Tubal Cain?

Yawns. Gothy trad craft raises it's multiple-pierced head again, and in a grown-up forum too. Andrew Chumley has a lot to answer for, and look where his researches got him. Cruel thing to say, I know, but there you go.

[DocHolliday]

Blimey, does anybody? I have been aware for 23 years of the ignorance of Jewish tradition displayed by non-Jewish "Cabalists" but that takes the biscuit!

As for a previous post: Cain and Lilith? Azazel and Shemyaza? Tubal Cain?

Yawns. Gothy trad craft raises it's multiple-pierced head again, and in a grown-up forum too. Andrew Chumley has a lot to answer for, and look where his researches got him. Cruel thing to say, I know, but there you go.

Boredom-inspired bump:

Azazel and Shemyaza are mentioned as the "sons of God" who teach sorcery to humans in the Book of Jubilees. Lillith as a sexual vampire is all over Jewish tradition. It has nothing to do with "Gothy trad craft" and everything to do with traditional sources.

[EtuMalku]

Tree of Life is the metaphor for a collapsed 'Tree' and the unbalance of our Universe. This is the LHP's goal, to continue the collapse of the Tree and to grow a new Tree perfectly in balance for Man.

[DocHolliday]

Tree of Life is the metaphor for a collapsed 'Tree' and the unbalance of our Universe. This is the LHP's goal, to continue the collapse of the Tree and to grow a new Tree perfectly in balance for Man.

Maybe in other magical constructs, but I'm not dealing with those. I'm working exclusively in the context of Hebraic Kabbalah/Hebraic sorcery.

[EtuMalku]

Maybe in other magical constructs, but I'm not dealing with those. I'm working exclusively in the context of Hebraic Kabbalah/Hebraic sorcery.Even though you are staying within the boundaries of Judaic Kabbalaha, you cannot avoid a study of the Qliphoth and the Tree of Death or Inverse Tree.

[Anibis]

Hmmm. Let's keep this descriptive and technical... There's not much point in telling another adept 'how it is'. Please share technical details, and accounts of your own work if you wish to support a position. Please shift statements like:
Even though you are staying within the boundaries of Judaic Kabbalaha, you cannot avoid a study of the Qliphoth and the Tree of Death or Inverse Tree. to a question like:
How can you cannot avoid a study of the Qliphoth and the Tree of Death or Inverse Tree, within the boundaries of Judaic Kabbalaha?. Or from:
Yawns. Gothy trad craft raises it's multiple-pierced head again, and in a grown-up forum too. Andrew Chumley has a lot to answer for, and look where his researches got him. Cruel thing to say, I know, but there you go. to
Is this essentially a Chumbley inspired gothic fusion?. I ask politely, but I will enforce this if I have to. The reason is simple: In an "adult forum", we don't presume the nature of another's work from reading into it our own accrued preferences and prejudices. Here, we determine the nature and consistency of such work by asking, directed, respectful, intelligent questions. If you can catch 'em off guard THAT way, then good for you. What we don't know we discover through investigation and dialog, not presumption. Consider this a shot across the bow. Thanks guys;
-A-

[Anibis]

Addendum: it is considered appropriate to assume your interlocutor's position is strong and they know what they are talking about, and prove or disprove that assumption through discussion. Otherwise the conversation will degenerate into an empty-tongued flame war between straw men.
-A-
Edit: noticed that sethur's (incredibly rude and presumptuous) post was old, so it's not as much of a big deal... but lets keep this rigorous. k.

[DocHolliday]

Even though you are staying within the boundaries of Judaic Kabbalaha, you cannot avoid a study of the Qliphoth and the Tree of Death or Inverse Tree.

Both "Tree of Death" and "Inverse Tree" are concepts created in modern days, and have no relation to the Kelipoth as understood within the Hebraic framework. At worst, the Kelipoth are found through Geburah/Pahad - at best they are no different than the Sefiroth, just with a different focus.

[EtuMalku]

This is what was taught:

On the original ToL, Yesod, the astral abode of man, is an exact reflection of the highest plane, Kether, an exactness of God.

The Fall represents mankind's and natures fall into materialism.This Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss between Man and the Divine. The RHP of traditional Qabalah aims to restore the original harmonic relation between man and the Divine.

The LHP fulfills and deepens the Fall. The Dark Adept continues the Fall from God to reach individual divinity.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The LHP leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god.

The original ToL did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed., united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below).

Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out God's idea of creation.
Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.

The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being viewed as fruits of the ToK

[DocHolliday]

Whomever tought you apparently had no grounding in Judaism. Your thoughts are fine, but are not pertinent to the purpose of any of my magical work. Just to iterate for the "umpteenth" time, I'm working within a classical framework.

[Anibis]

Where's the best source to get get a true appreciation of the vast difference between the two Kabbalistic 'traditions', Doc? I would think Gershom Sholem, right off the back, cuz that's who I read in this capacity, but I would think that might even be a bit dated... The traditions diverged when? In the rennaisance at the latest? Which is less to say that the traditions diverged, but more to say that Christian/Hermetic Qabalah "invented itself" around that time, using certain structural features of Kabbalah, but really really assembling a totally incommensurable tradition (with major neoplatonic sources at it's heart)... I think, Doc, that it's hard to a certain degree for people reading this stuff to fully understand that you are acting as a Jew, and not a 'magician' per sey (at least not in the hermetic/occult sense) ... NOW, anything I said that's got you pegged wrong, do correct it... That's just how I have intuited the situation... Cool.
-A-

[Anibis]

'Dark Qabalah', might be a bit of a misleading title for this thread, as it would seem there are at least two totally other "Dark Qabalistic" lines... I might add (Judaic) into the title of this thread, if you think that would help it...
-A-

[DocHolliday]

Aryeh Kaplan, Gershom Scholem, Daniel C. Matt, and Z'ev ben Shimon ha-Levy are the best go-to authors on the subject. Aryeh Kaplan has translations of the Sefer Yetsirah, the Bahir (I think), and works on Kabbalastic meditation which are perfect. Gershom Scholem is more of a historian and approaches the Kabbalah in that light. Daniel C. Matt is currently working on a full English translation of the Zohar, which should be about twelve volumes total. Currently, vols I-IV are in print (I own I-III). Z'ev ben Shimon ha-Levy is continuing a tradition started in Toledo, Spain. If you can find it, Moses Gaster has a translation of the Sword of Moses, which is one of the two extant grimoires - the other being Sefer Raziel. Another good source would be any translation of the books of Enoch and the Bookf of Jubilees (these can all be found, along with other similar works in "The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha," edited by James Charlsworth).

Anything else may require the ability to read and understand vague Hebrew :(

[EtuMalku]

My mistake, I am speaking from a Hermetic Qabalah respect and one that aligns 'Dark' with the Luciferian / Qliphothic energies.

[frater luciferi]

Where's the best source to get get a true appreciation of the vast difference between the two Kabbalistic 'traditions', Doc? I would think Gershom Sholem, right off the back, cuz that's who I read in this capacity, but I would think that might even be a bit dated... The traditions diverged when? In the rennaisance at the latest? Which is less to say that the traditions diverged, but more to say that Christian/Hermetic Qabalah "invented itself" around that time, using certain structural features of Kabbalah, but really really assembling a totally incommensurable tradition (with major neoplatonic sources at it's heart)... I think, Doc, that it's hard to a certain degree for people reading this stuff to fully understand that you are acting as a Jew, and not a 'magician' per sey (at least not in the hermetic/occult sense) ... NOW, anything I said that's got you pegged wrong, do correct it... That's just how I have intuited the situation... Cool.
-A-

the "esoteric" scene of the day was quite icestrous ...gnostics and hermeticists as well as students of kabbala would or did often pollinate ideas through close groupings. and it was the same during the renasaince as such...

[EtuMalku]

the "esoteric" scene of the day was quite icestrous ...gnostics and hermeticists as well as students of kabbala would or did often pollinate ideas through close groupings. and it was the same during the renasaince as such...While I agree for the most part with you I would like to point out that Hermes (Hermetic) is actually the Egyptian God Thoth / Tehuti.
The Qabalaha, to me, is of Egyptian origin, though this is a very radical and unpopular concept, it is one I believe.
I also see the Judaic beliefs (all Abrahamic religions actually) as offshoots from the Kemetic religion and the work of Set.

[Anibis]

While I agree for the most part with you I would like to point out that Hermes (Hermetic) is actually the Egyptian God Thoth / Tehuti.

That's a quite disputable point. "Hermes Trismegistus" was modeled on Tehuti, sure, but Hermes is an older concept than the thrice-great. Pre-dates the period when the Greeks were in Egypt. Hermes the messenger and the trickster. Rennaisance Hermeticism I would agree with you is Thoth-inspiring, though.

-A-

[frater luciferi]

That's a quite disputable point. "Hermes Trismegistus" was modeled on Tehuti, sure, but Hermes is an older concept than the thrice-great. Pre-dates the period when the Greeks were in Egypt. Hermes the messenger and the trickster. Rennaisance Hermeticism I would agree with you is Thoth-inspiring, though.

-A-
hence the liber hermetica, and the emerald tablets of thoth. both hermetic era works? im not sure as much on their validity of at least the AGE of the works but the works themselve definately are hermetic.

i only give the qaballa any more validity as it is a perfect system. it is a mystery i that i have not had the chance to delve deeply into as of late and i apologize to doc holliday if i have caused a jar in the flow of the discussion. my favorite analogy of dark vs. light in caballa is malkuth vs. kether. the high king versus the underworld adversary. if the q inverse kaballa with the tree of death.. how would those relate to the "positively charged" spheres on the "good" caballa. which to which?

[EtuMalku]

10 Malkuth / Lilith
09 Yesod / Gamaliel
08 Hod / Samael
07 Netzach / A'arab Zaraq
06 Tiphareth / Thagirion
05 Geburah / Golachab
04 Chesed / Gha'ag Sheblah
03 Binah / Satariel
02 Chokmah / Ghagiel
01 Kether / Thaumiel

[Darkwater]

The qabbalistic tradition, as it exists today within both Hebraic and Hermetic circles is a means by which one may attain a level of prophecy known as the ruah haqqodesh (lit: the spirit of holiness, understood as the Divine Will, or Holy Guardian Angel), and re-unite themsleves with En Sof. Part of this is the process of finding the fallen sparks hidden within the Qelippoth and restoring them to their rightful place among the Sefiroth. This process is known as Tiqqun Ha'olam (restoring the world) and is analogous to the Abramelin Operation, in which the mage calls forth all his inner daemons and binds them to his will, thus transforming the "evil" into agents of "good." Contemporary Qabbalah consists of two forms: Qabbalah Iyyunith (Contemplative Qabbalah), which is a philosophical excercise, focused on enhancing the religious experience, and Qabbalah Ma'asith (Practical Qabbalah), which is, in a nutshell, magic. Within the practical Qabbalah, there are two traditions: Ma'aseh Merkabah (the work of the [Divine] charriot) and Ma'aseh Bereshith (the worl of creation).

Merkabah mysticism is based on the experiences recorded in the prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. In essence, it may be considered a form of shamanism, and at times relies on aescetic techniques. On the other hand, explorations on the work of creation are thaumaturgic in nature, as they act directly upon creation in an attempt to bend reality to one's will. The consensus of tradition is that these secrets were first given to Adam by the angel Raziel. However, there is little within the corpus of Jewish tradition (that I am aware of) to support this. If anything, it's a concept created to justify the way Qabbalah would come to impact Jewish life. Conversely, the Talmud, 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and other texts state that the "fallen" angels Azazel (Sammael) and Shemyaza taught the children of Cain (who is considered the progenitor of those of "witch blood" in Luciferian Witchcraft) the magical secrets of creation.

Thus, (and I know this has been quite simplified), if one has the persistence to delve deeply into Ma'aseh Bereshith and has the fortitude to peel away the layers of masques, one finds an apotheosistic tool which taps into the very nature of Choas itself in the Supernal Womb of En Sof.

Avoiding mindnumbing pistis & dogma on the one hand,yet remaining thorough in the straightforward analysis of data which you receive naturally,it is easier than you may think to acheive this state of Gnosis.

Gnosis(noesis) rocks,Gnostics will never understand the Universal key?:no:

Great love,

DW