Transferring Dogma

[Ritual_Kiss]

Venting is good for you!

I want to know if others have had similar experiences.

I don't have a problem with alternative religions and spirituality becoming more popular, however I do have a problem with the side effects that come along with it. Particularly, I have a problem with dogma being erroneously brought into the mix. My understanding of mysticism of any sort is that it requires people to do a lot of searching and experimenting for themselves. So when I find people discussing magick and mysticism in such a way that some things shouldn't be questioned, I get turned off by it.

I once joined a Pagan forum that I felt was very easy going. I was happy discussing magic, symbolism, and theology as well as gardening, pets, and cooking. It was relaxed until the topic of love spells came into it. Most of the people there agreed that love spells are dangerous, and by doing them, you are forcing your will onto someone else, and that it always ends badly. I respectfully disagreed, and explained why without being unfriendly about it. I brought up several points, including personal experiences, hoping that the others would address each one. The response I was hoping for was "I think you're wrong because..." Instead they just posted the same thing I initially disagreed with. I basically pointed out that I did indeed read what they said, and asked them if they would please address my points and opinions, and I just got the same thing...basically that one is enslaving others.

I wasn't so much angry that they disagreed with me, but was angry at the dogma. It seems that people are increasingly getting into religions like Wicca, or Pagan, or mystic paths, etc. and are either 1.bringing their old dogmas into their new religion. 2. They are accepting paradigms that are already laid out for them, or 3. Have dogmatic elements in their religion already, but tell people they are non-dogmatic.

I sucks trying to explain yourself to people who refuse to listen, no matter how well you try to explain it.

Does anybody else find this is happening also? Do you have similar experiences?

[deviadah]

Dogma is my mortal enemy!

Keep your mind in constant change and free ye shall be!

Nothing is as it seems nor will it ever be...

Deep in your core you know what is right for you... do that and Fuck the World!

:yes:

[Ritual_Kiss]

Thanks for the encouraging words, deviadah! And thank you for referring me to Abrahadabra.

[m1thr0s]

Well that's pretty much the story of my life Ritual_Kiss. Interestingly, it has only got worse as I have got older, ie, successive generations following the 60's have become more and more nazified, for want of a better term. I understand it...any monkey could understand it really...it's all about fear. Fear of standing apart, fear of being pegged as "weird", fear of everything really. Pretty godamm pathetic mostly...

There's not a lot can be done for it. We are approaching a kind of world where opinions seem to matter less and less. No one is skilled enough at thinking for a good opinion to register with anybody. What can be asserted in words can be negated in words and the content doesn't really matter. This much they have absorbed from their various pseudo-educations.

All the more important then to learn to think for yourself somehow, and don't expect it to come easy cuz it won't.
It isn't about easy...it's about strong.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

[quote]So when I find people discussing magick and mysticism in such a way that some things shouldn't be questioned, I get turned off by it.Yeah I used to get that way until I felt solid enough that someone else's beliefs couldn't really threaten me at all so I got all laid back. That's a native thing too, even if someone is real adamant you don't get threatened you just laugh or comment on how it is a good story. It's not really important to me whether someone wants me to question something or not, because I know deep down I can question whatever the fuck I want. :)

I once joined a Pagan forum that I felt was very easy going. I was happy discussing magic, symbolism, and theology as well as gardening, pets, and cooking. It was relaxed until the topic of love spells came into it. Most of the people there agreed that love spells are dangerous, and by doing them, you are forcing your will onto someone else, and that it always ends badly. I respectfully disagreed, and explained why without being unfriendly about it. I brought up several points, including personal experiences, hoping that the others would address each one. The response I was hoping for was "I think you're wrong because..." Instead they just posted the same thing I initially disagreed with. I basically pointed out that I did indeed read what they said, and asked them if they would please address my points and opinions, and I just got the same thing...basically that one is enslaving others. I don't believe in love spells personally but I do know how to manipulate those threads and have instructed some people on how to do them. There's no way you can really just control someone without them giving consent on some level. I don't really care much for individuals either, it's the holistic perspective that I like. We're all slaves on some level. The whole point of being a working part of the universe is paying service to your purpose. Free will is an illusion invented by people who havn't considered the fact that your body would explode if you stepped out of the earth's atmosphere. Asking oneself "What did I come here for?" can't hurt. If that means enslaving others, then ::grin:: so be it. Anyone is welcome to come try me.

I wasn't so much angry that they disagreed with me, but was angry at the dogma. It seems that people are increasingly getting into religions like Wicca, or Pagan, or mystic paths, etc. and are either 1.bringing their old dogmas into their new religion. 2. They are accepting paradigms that are already laid out for them, or 3. Have dogmatic elements in their religion already, but tell people they are non-dogmatic. Why be angry? Just lead by beautiful example....


I sucks trying to explain yourself to people who refuse to listen, no matter how well you try to explain it. Don't explain then. Just be. I don't mind explaining myself to some people though, close friends etc. You pick and choose the right components for your life and blow the rest away.

Does anybody else find this is happening also? Do you have similar experiences?Not anymore really, I mean...I do but I don't go looking for this. I'm used to it and just use Wiccans and co. for intellectual amusement. I ignore Christians. We can keep the Wiccans in check by reminding them I suppose they have very little to add to the occult unless they start calling themselves witches and altering reality directly, or they have nice tits or smtg. :dull:

[Naomi]

Well that's pretty much the story of my life Ritual_Kiss. Interestingly, it has only got worse as I have got older, ie, successive generations following the 60's have become more and more nazified, for want of a better term. I understand it...any monkey could understand it really...it's all about fear. Fear of standing apart, fear of being pegged as "weird", fear of everything really. Pretty godamm pathetic mostly...

There's not a lot can be done for it. We are approaching a kind of world where opinions seem to matter less and less. No one is skilled enough at thinking for a good opinion to register with anybody. What can be asserted in words can be negated in words and the content doesn't really matter. This much they have absorbed from their various pseudo-educations.

All the more important then to learn to think for yourself somehow, and don't expect it to come easy cuz it won't.
It isn't about easy...it's about strong.

m1thr0s

Nice fucking post.

Oh yeah if we wanted easy we can always go play Tetris or something:o_O:;).

[Ritual_Kiss]

Well that's pretty much the story of my life Ritual_Kiss. Interestingly, it has only got worse as I have got older, ie, successive generations following the 60's have become more and more nazified, for want of a better term. I understand it...any monkey could understand it really...it's all about fear. Fear of standing apart, fear of being pegged as "weird", fear of everything really. Pretty godamm pathetic mostly...

There's not a lot can be done for it. We are approaching a kind of world where opinions seem to matter less and less. No one is skilled enough at thinking for a good opinion to register with anybody. What can be asserted in words can be negated in words and the content doesn't really matter. This much they have absorbed from their various pseudo-educations.

All the more important then to learn to think for yourself somehow, and don't expect it to come easy cuz it won't.
It isn't about easy...it's about strong.

m1thr0s

Something that always caught my eye when watching old movies, aside from the reflection of the political climate of earlier decades, is the way people in these movies are portrayed as communicating with each other. It's the same with some old news clips I've seen from the 60's and 70's. The bias is still there, and their certainly were character assassinations, but it was far less common. Something about the communication seems less restricted. Whereas now, it's foolish to expect someone won't attack you with force and resentment for having a different opinion.

[Ritual_Kiss]

Regarding the love spells. They were talking about it as if it would result in a mindless zombie. I tried to explain to them that from my own experience, you are doing nothing more than influencing something to come out which already has the potential to exist. It's literally a matter of chemistry. It's the metaphysical equivalent of putting on a short skirt, batting your eyes, and wearing bright red lipstick that could stop traffic. It's giving the "victim" an extra incentive to look your way.

It's interesting you brought up the fact that we are all captured by our own environment, by the fact that we would explode if we left the Earth's atmosphere. It's true! We are limited by certain conditions, which is exactly what I was trying to explain to them. We can influence that which is around us with abilities that we already have naturally, but we can't make a love zombie out of anyone through ritual any more than we can make the Earth stop rotating.

[Naomi]

Yeah I've noticed that too, it's so hard being honest. Like it seems like when I get really honest with people, like my family lately, they wanted to attack me for it suddenly. I couldn't understand that. Like the unconditional love thing isn't trusted at all except by the fringe of humanity - people who don't try to fit in or do but are not happy with it at all. I've had a lot of run ins with my own family over the past few weeks on this new trip I've been on and it's almost like they're angry at me for being loving and compassionate, and scared that I don't give a fuck about my own well being. I mean, my best friendpractically shoved me onto the sofa for wanting to hug him when I was in my blissed out devi mode because he was so scared of me. It wasn't until I put on an act pretending to be a weird scary bitch that he warmed back up to me. He he, I guess it's all about pushing comfort zones in the opposite direction now. I wanted to join the Air Force all day today just to escape the expectations of selfishness and apply myself to a rigid regime of discipline and control that would test my metal to the limits. Weird eh?

Love zombies...lolol, that reminds me of a terrible murder mystery horror novel I read seven years ago, about a guy who tried to turn people into his homosexual love slaves by hitting them over the head, drilling a hole in their head and...well...it gets worse....

It's an absurd idea. People are so afraid of the overwhelming and potent majesty of the universe...they need to spend a little time on the Hubble website maybe, or just step outside when Venus is shining as it was tonight. (Well it might have been Jupiter, but it was more white than yellow.) :) Why be afraid of the inescapable.

It's like watching baby gazelle struggling to get away from cheetahs...just sad. Better to lift your head back and take the bite. ^_^ Sounds morbid but it really is actually life affirming...

[Ritual_Kiss]

Yeah I've noticed that too, it's so hard being honest. Like it seems like when I get really honest with people, like my family lately, they wanted to attack me for it suddenly. I couldn't understand that. Like the unconditional love thing isn't trusted at all except by the fringe of humanity - people who don't try to fit in or do but are not happy with it at all. I've had a lot of run ins with my own family over the past few weeks on this new trip I've been on and it's almost like they're angry at me for being loving and compassionate, and scared that I don't give a fuck about my own well being. I mean, my best friendpractically shoved me onto the sofa for wanting to hug him when I was in my blissed out devi mode because he was so scared of me. It wasn't until I put on an act pretending to be a weird scary bitch that he warmed back up to me. He he, I guess it's all about pushing comfort zones in the opposite direction now. I wanted to join the Air Force all day today just to escape the expectations of selfishness and apply myself to a rigid regime of discipline and control that would test my metal to the limits. Weird eh

I've been on that trip before. I've oftan thought about joining the army to get the dicipline I need, but the idea of living under the whim of politicians fighting to secure their interests leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think part of the problem is some people are afraid to be selfish. Selfishness has along the lines come to mean apathy. We are selfish by default, and it's not a bad thing. Going back to the whole theme of thinking for yourself, and all; it's so badly drilled into people that gratifying personal needs is wrong, that it causes a huge imbalance and we end up fucking each other over.

Love zombies...lolol, that reminds me of a terrible murder mystery horror novel I read seven years ago, about a guy who tried to turn people into his homosexual love slaves by hitting them over the head, drilling a hole in their head and...well...it gets worse....

Um...he aranged flowers and other pretty things?

It's an absurd idea. People are so afraid of the overwhelming and potent majesty of the universe...they need to spend a little time on the Hubble website maybe, or just step outside when Venus is shining as it was tonight. (Well it might have been Jupiter, but it was more white than yellow.) :) Why be afraid of the inescapable.

It's like watching baby gazelle struggling to get away from cheetahs...just sad. Better to lift your head back and take the bite. ^_^ Sounds morbid but it really is actually life affirming...

I agree completely!

[Naomi]

Ech, politicians, yes, they are totally gross. I've got tons of discipline actually. I mean ferocious amounts when I need it. I just don't have everything I need like a lot of people...the world is like a rusty engine right now, with forgetful and lost human minds cluttering up the grid like a hard drive badly in need of a defrag. I guess it'll get better as it goes along. But there comes a point when avenues through space and time to a goal don't appear to be plausible or worth the sacrifice in comparison to other pathways which are constantly changing and shifting, opening and rearranging. Like space time gateways blinking in and out of existence, oppurtunity knocks many times from many directions and different times.

Life is very simple for me at the moment it doesn't take much to fit into a regime but it's engaging humans at a higher level of group work is so difficult except in a militaristic or corporate structure...one is based on war the other on greed.

I know which one I prefer but there is a third option. I'm not sure how it's going to pan out yet but it definately involves discarding dogma on all sorts of levels - even to the highest and lowest points of consciousness.

Beyond time and beyond fear of death or loss....

[deviadah]

Thanks for the encouraging words, deviadah! And thank you for referring me to Abrahadabra.
I suspected it was You... nice nickname...

Enjoy AF!

:cool:

[Ritual_Kiss]

I suspected it was You... nice nickname...

Enjoy AF!

:cool:

Thanks, I thought it was kinda cheeky. :)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Witchcraft that is afraid of the odd love potion is in fact wuss (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/wuss)craft.

[Kuroyagi]

Sure I agree, beliefs are necessary and a framework for things that transcend experience too, but dogma- belief for its own sake or against reason or experience- isnt.

p.s. I never had to use love spells..was never necessary for me...I have them inbuilt already. ;)

[Naomi]

You devil.

[deviadah]

Wusscraft!

I have to start using that words. Often run into 14 year old Goths that think they are Wicca Vampires with a spiritual bond to Crowley just cause their favourite song is THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnj8X1zAZI&mode=related&search=)

[Naomi]

Yes, that is an incredibly cool song that is almost too cool for who it is about. Ozzy always manages to make mediocre lyrics sound fucking awesome with that voice of his. I think his wife is a dog, I have no respect for women who forbid the construction of black chapels dedicated to Satan featuring inverted crosses.

I think I would like to see someone successfully targetr me with a love spell. I've got a pretty thick skin, it's from the tyrannidae family....

kekekekekkee ^_^

[Ritual_Kiss]

Wusscraft!

I have to start using that words. Often run into 14 year old Goths that think they are Wicca Vampires with a spiritual bond to Crowley just cause their favourite song is THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnj8X1zAZI&mode=related&search=)

I really hate that song. I like Sabbath ok, but I find that song really condescending. Wusscraft, heh. Exactly, if you're afraid of looking at the unusual, what's the point?