If You Could Impose Justice in this World...

[m1thr0s]

...what would you do?

I don't know that there are any right or wrong answers to this...it's just a recurrent thought construct I seem to toy with every now and then. Anybody else ever play out these scenarios?

Personally...I think I would become rather actively involved in my *community*...I like the idea of being able to just show up for no apparent reason just to balance the books for the sheer f*ck of it. Every little thing from the murder of Curt Kobain to the genocyde of despots would be a good excuse for a little personal vacation...:cool:

What makes it kind of fun in the way I play this out is that nobody would ever really know for sure...that's a key factor in the art & science of magickal vengeance in my view...wouldn't want to spoil a good thing by being obvious.

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Ive always been a big fan of Nemesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_%28mythology%29). Maybe it has to do with having all those planets in Libra and the 10th House

What makes it kind of fun in the way I play this out is that nobody would ever really know for sure...that's a key factor in the art & science of magickal vengeance in my view...wouldn't want to spoil a good thing by being obvious.

It's essential. Equally when this translates into direct face to face encounters, the less the other knows about you and your abilities (or rather, your limits), the more empowered you are.

[Talkingfox]

yeah I'm with you m1....a little neighborhood cleanup.

Oh that and I'd go back in time and smother the inventor of light beer in his sleep.

[Anibis]

Didn't Kurt Cobain off himself, or am I out of the loop here? It's true what you say, though, invisibility... in some way Justice is like a spider web... Those who act with guilt become flies, and those with clean consciences glide across with no trouble....
-Anibis

[deviadah]

Well there are two theories on the Kurt thing... just as it is with JFK (inhouse or not).

But I wouldn't mind to be a Dark Knight of sorts that - in the dead of night - made certain individuals vanish from this planet... like Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Kim Jong-il and such.

A few days ago I found a list of the 25 most evil people in the last millenium (a New York Post poll). Adolf Hitler is number one, obviously since he has been so heavily marketed, but there are several strange ones like: Bill Clinton (#2), Hillary Clinton (#6) and Marquis de Sade (#23).

List HERE (http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/campaign2k/evilpoll.htm)!

PS
Kurt Cobain saved my life! When he died, was murdered or by suicide, I - as a lost suicidal teenager - decided to live instead and fight against that which killed him: Corporate Media (which killed him, either direct or indirect).

Love sold Kurt (http://nidhoggz.blogspot.com/2006/10/love-sold-kurt.html)

[Anibis]

I see it more as 'weaving justice into the world', rather than imposing it upon the world... I think that is part of the problem; justice done from the top down works less well, than justice which grows out of peoples consciousness itself... Justice which is inseprable from Mind, and Mind which is inseperable from time...

Abrahadabra

-Anibis

[m1thr0s]

Didn't Kurt Cobain off himself, or am I out of the loop here?
I doubt you could find 3 people here in the Pacific Northwest that believe that crock-n-bull story considering the mountain of suspicious circumstances involved (it's really hard to blow your head off with a shotgun and leave no blood, just for starters...) Most people here are quite convinced that it was Courtney Love's signature all over the place on that business. She was stuffed to the gills with every kind of means, motive & opportunity you could possibly imagine...

I didn't know that about Nemesis...that's interesting.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

That's weird, I've been thinking about Kurt Conain all week now off and on. I don't think Courtney did it to tell you the truth, that's not personal bias, I don't like her music, just a feeling I got.

Justice? Hmm I guess I'd loop the planet Saturn's gravity through Mars and make the two sister planets (rejecting the masculine Saturnian god) and put Ma'at on the throne of Saturn. Then I would instill Mars with a new meme (ie kill nothing without purpose towards the benefit of the universe) and then chain that all to the planet Ouranos. Then I would sit back and let all of the gravity and electricity of the spheres tow everything along.

But that's complicated....kinda boring too.

[Anibis]

It's interesting... Obviously with Kurt Cobain, it's much more personal to folk where you are at, from here it was, okay, another rockstar... At least to me... I hope that doesn't sound callous... actually I know it does sound callous, but I don't mean it that way... It just felt different... I will take your word that there is more to it than meets the eye, there usually always is, and it's so easy just to believe what you hear.... I know I do all the time... hm... THen again, I do hear alot of strange things, given the company I keep. But Justice. Justice is a major concern for me.... much moreso than power... I think that properly employed 418 very MUCH operates principally in the hands of justice. It is 11, and 11 is 0. 11 is the double wand of Maat, and Abrahadabra seems to lay out a field wherein karmas find their way to their ultimate expression.... They ripen... So, far from asking the question "if I could..." in regard to justice, I think of it more along the lines of "since I do...", but again, Justice is NOT imposed, is is grown, in the garden of Time, so to speak...
-Anibis

[Naomi]

Can't say I really disagree Anibis but justice for me personally has always been an unstoppable force that is closely paired with every movement I make. It's a sacrifice but comes with some added uhh...recreational...benefits.

On a more interesting level, if I were to say impose justice upon the United States I'd start by changing it into a more Spartan society. Beginning with politicians. They don't need to be wearing fancy clothes to work nor do they constantly need to be erecting nasty monuments or even holding so many grand parties. Something that should be focused on - that is, if the U.S. wants to remain a superpower, is that you must bring more of the war into the political arena instead of attempting to seperate the two so much. It will come back to bite you in the ass. Bush for instance isn't handling the karmic backlash well because he's not a warrior, if he was he might have come out ok given his - or rather, his father and associated criminal pals ideas for world domination.

You can't stick your hand in the affairs of the great Abyss without expecting to be caught up with the channels and currents associated with the particular stream of illusionary nature. If you're not acclimated to that wave or stream of consciousness then you will be pulled in under and drowned. That's just the way it is.

So yes I would like to start with fancy suits...sell them off, or just phase them out, and Senators, you can go to work in shorts and a t-shirt, or a toga, if you have any class...

Naomi

[Naomi]

Oh I don't think Kurt killed himself either...just a thought, maybe random....

[m1thr0s]

well it's a curious sort of thing, but the whole idea of Justice, Retribution, even Vengeance, does seem to be a subliminal subtext in Abrahadabra itself, though I am not entirely sure why that would be. To some extent, anything that is attempting to address the elevation of Consciousness itself is also indirectly addressing reparations of injustices rooted in (and dependant upon) Restriction itself, so it may be that you can never address the one without also addressing the other. I have a tough time feeling very confident of this in any direct sort of way. I feel like it has to find some kind of direct expression to ever really be very useful.

Now if it turns out that Abrahadabra does eventually facilitate a higher technology every bit as real as guns and bombs and so on, then the whole thing becomes a little more believable. But if you don't really have any means of affecting Retribution other than this whole process of reeducation, then I would tend to think we all got ripped off in a sense. I can't get very excited about placid retribution to violent kinds of aggression for instance.

Maybe it's just me...but I want to see somebody get their f*cking asses kicked over this shit. It would be really cool if it was the one's responsible for all the murder and mayhem for a godamm change.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

omg this conversation is awesome

[m1thr0s]

I had a dream about this stuff once that was kinda cool. In this dream people's "auras" had become magnified due to some sort of weather event that altered the energy constance in earth so you could suddenly look at people and know exactly what they were hiding. People's actions hang on them whether they like it or not and in this dream you could clearly tell who the murderers and rapers and corporate criminals were just by looking at them. And in the midst of all of this arose an army of hooded warriors carrying what would have normally appeared to be traditional talismans, only suddenly these simple talismans had become nuclear or something so they all appeared very high-tech. An attack was launched against these energy pollutants the likes of which was pretty thrilling to watch...all this garbage standing there stark naked with nowhere to hide and no amount of lies or excuses could shield them...so they ran like hell and a huge purge went down in this dream that ultimately eliminated something like two-thirds of the human race before it was all over...

Just a dream...but certain elements of it seemed to be rooted in reality, or perhaps a future reality or something...

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

I had a dream about this stuff once that was kinda cool. In this dream people's "auras" had become magnified due to some sort of weather event that altered the energy constance in earth so you could suddenly look at people and know exactly what they were hiding. People's actions hang on them whether they like it or not and in this dream you could clearly tell who the murderers and rapers and corporate criminals were just by looking at them. And in the midst of all of this arose an army of hooded warriors carrying what would have normally appeared to be traditional talismans, only suddenly these simple talismans had become nuclear or something so they all appeared very high-tech. An attack was launched against these energy pollutants the likes of which was pretty thrilling to watch...all this garbage standing there stark naked with nowhere to hide and no amount of lies or excuses could shield them...so they ran like hell and a huge purge went down in this dream that ultimately eliminated something like two-thirds of the human race before it was all over...

Just a dream...but certain elements of it seemed to be rooted in reality, or perhaps a future reality or something...

m1thr0s
Yeah thats the way to go- post more of such dreams! Im also in the unfortunate poistion to see their "auras" but havent got the weaponry (yet)...lets do this!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

*...I like the idea of being able to just show up for no apparent reason just to balance the books for the sheer f*ck of it.

Going on with the secrecy element, I think tactically it is a good idea to have a reciprocal cooperative deal with a magus from out of town, one that is able to visit your area and whose own area you too are able to visit. In part because it avoids shitting (on a psychic level) on your own doorstep, but also because the visitor has several advantages, such as a sense of otherness which amplifies magic but which to varying degrees would be lacking in one completely familiar with his or her surroundings, as well as having the advantage of being the Man (or woman) With No Name as far as the target location's residents are concerned. As most of this kind of work involves speeding up Karma, the visitor also has the advantage of impartiality. Of course, the local magus might want to take a short vacation while this is happening.

On the other hand, if the target location is an entirely different place, cooperating magii have all the advantages of being outsiders, but will also escalate the nemesis energy between them (Im sure most of you have experienced how energies escalate when there's more than one magus in town) adding to the results. Of course, for subsequent grounding, it's best not to go on such joint outings with someone you see on a frequent basis, otherwise you're in danger of dwelling too much on how much of a bad ass you are and becoming a nutter.

[Anibis]

I really don't like the idea of 'doing' justice on somebody... it smacks of all the ironies of self-rightouness... The seeds of Justice, when sown in a heart will grow, and will judge that heart... We cannot intervene on the part of justice... it is injust... Each persons 'Guardian Angel', or projected future self, or whatever makes that judgement... Justice arises in the intimate relation of a person to Tao, or Being... we can foster it, and create communites which bolster it, we can ever construct a Time that upholds it, and we should do all this, but 'deal it out?' come on...
-Anibis
If we are to impose justice, we start and finish with ourselves, and the rest is resonance...

[MythMath]

I'm a bit more meek than some here, but it
seems that an extreme, cataclysmic event that
would purge all the scummanders of industry, etc.,
would undoubtedly create a power vaccuum
that would only be filled by inferior evilidiots...

These matters could be more elegantly and organically handled...

Gradual refinements from within...

The targets could be persuaded to become hyper-sensitive...

Then, all of the undesirable decisions and actions they
make would cause a proportional allergic reaction...

Like anabuse for shitheads, if they choose to continue
to make abominable choices, they make themselves
sicker and sicker til they can't function...

However, all Corporate Attorneys as well as Energy and
Insurance Company Executives would immediately implode... :p

[Anibis]

Lol, sortof like a clockwork orange.... We could call it, the 'digital plum'.... Or 'the atomic peach', as it were... I am with you though... enviroment generation is a superior method to vigelante attack... To deal Justice one requires intelligent weapons... THe best think I can think of is a sound: a resonance which sings or screetches, depending on what it passes through....

Justice must be held in the hands of Love... Maat taught me this.. Compassion is to weild Justice.... This is the teaching that i recieved while on the 22nd path sometime back..
Rahamim....
-Anibis

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I really don't like the idea of 'doing' justice on somebody... it smacks of all the ironies of self-rightouness... The seeds of Justice, when sown in a heart will grow, and will judge that heart... We cannot intervene on the part of justice... it is injust... Each persons 'Guardian Angel', or projected future self, or whatever makes that judgement... Justice arises in the intimate relation of a person to Tao, or Being... we can foster it, and create communites which bolster it, we can ever construct a Time that upholds it, and we should do all this, but 'deal it out?' come on...
-Anibis
If we are to impose justice, we start and finish with ourselves, and the rest is resonance...

It all depends on the circumstances. Justice isn't simply about right and wrong, it's about restoring and maintaining a balance, as well as about compassion. Was it unjust of you to take in a lost snake? No, it was an intervention of compassion. Likewise being a nemesis (in the original sense of that word) is an intervention. The very fact that such work involves speeding up karma -including that of the magus- should be sufficient restriction to prevent him or her from becoming a vigilante.

[Anibis]

Oh believe me, I am one hell of a Nemesis... ALL the time... I just don't pick my targets based on some set of criteria... they are chosen by themselves, and this applies to everyone on the planet, as we speak. It IS about restoring and maintaining a ballance, absolutely... I fear you may have taken my approach as placid, but it is not that. I am doing it right now, and have been for some time... it is my path... It just doen't usually involve me taking any action per-sey... It's just how I resonate with my environment...
-Anibis

[Anibis]

By the way my (or anyones) power to effect this lies not in what I or anyone is willing to do to anyone else, but rather what I or anyone is willing to have done to themselves to affect adjustment... That and it also reaches greater strength with greater soldiarity of numbers... If you, and I and m1thr0s and everyone else can will In Unison then that will is amplified most intensely, and that resonance will carry all the farther... This is how I see it... Again just communities are the foundation for just actions... anything else seems to me to be catharsis, and doomed to perpetuating the same boring cycle...
-Anibis

[Anibis]

Kain deserves to be quoted in this regard:


The Left Hand Path is based on the premise of Self Deification, thus I have come to feel that one's main effort should be directed on internal development rather than revenge, because the things that need to be settled, will be settled out of the potency of sheer alignment if one attends to it.


I am in concurrance with this view on the individual level and well as on the level of the larger social ecology.

-Anibis

[Naomi]

wisdom above all

[Ci Celli Ddu]

The Left Hand Path is based on the premise of Self Deification, thus I have come to feel that one's main effort should be directed on internal development rather than revenge, because the things that need to be settled, will be settled out of the potency of sheer alignment if one attends to it.

Quite so, but I believe here we are talking more of individual interventions to redress a balance rather than the rights and wrongs of revenge.

If you, and I and m1thr0s and everyone else can will In Unison then that will is amplified most intensely, and that resonance will carry all the farther...

Definately, without a doubt

just communities are the foundation for just actions...

I agree, but this is in the long run.

[Naomi]

bushido in compassion is budo

or wisdom

revenge is sweet, and remains so if it tips the scales in favor of balance

[m1thr0s]

yes, yes, all very fine and good. At some point in time any true physicial leadership must lead by hard means as well as soft.

the problem I think is a two-fold one. On the one hand we have the problem of discretion, while on the other we have the problem of punishment itself. To the extent that we may not have a way of judging things with perfect integrity then we also have no way to do so with perfect impunity...if errors can be made in judgment, then errors will be made in judgment and innocence be made to suffer as a result. A similar problem exists with punishment...if the punishment itself is unjust or in some way abhorent, then how can justice be implemented by its standard?

In the example of Nemesis we have a hypothetical resolution of both issues in one package. As a goddess who is tailored to this kind of work from inception, we have the idea of her judgment being infallible. Since the sword she carries is presumably a sword of Truth (=Balance), we have the idea of balanced punishment...punishment that will always fit the crime in practical application.

I am perfectly aware that if you cannot do this whole thing with a very high degree of perfection in itself, you can't really expect to be able to do it at all and we are left with an imperfect justice in an imperfect world the same as mortals always have been. These are logistical matters to be resolved in some way, if there is any way to resolve them, and I think that there may be.

As for doing justice "on somebody" per se...I think that's a fairly parochial view of justice to begin with. I sort of assume among magickal/occult folk at least that we are never really as concerned with the persons involved as we are concerned with the forces that have gained dominance through them. If I awoke one day to discover that Nemesis had retired her position and left her cup and sword to me, I would turn to that occupation with at least as much artistry and passion as I might apply in any other walk of life. The fact that there would certainly be physical targets involved would not be of as much interest to me personally as the ability to make a positive difference in things through a very direct (and targeted) course of action...a freedom that had not existed before that suddenly would exist and would need to be aggressively asserted lest the balance of nature be upset through omission.

And actually, this whole idea of restoring the balance of nature is the most intriguing sub-plot going on with this whole scenario anyway...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I had a dream about this stuff once that was kinda cool. In this dream people's "auras" had become magnified due to some sort of weather event that altered the energy constance in earth so you could suddenly look at people and know exactly what they were hiding. People's actions hang on them whether they like it or not and in this dream you could clearly tell who the murderers and rapers and corporate criminals were just by looking at them. And in the midst of all of this arose an army of hooded warriors carrying what would have normally appeared to be traditional talismans, only suddenly these simple talismans had become nuclear or something so they all appeared very high-tech. An attack was launched against these energy pollutants the likes of which was pretty thrilling to watch...all this garbage standing there stark naked with nowhere to hide and no amount of lies or excuses could shield them...so they ran like hell and a huge purge went down in this dream that ultimately eliminated something like two-thirds of the human race before it was all over...

Just a dream...but certain elements of it seemed to be rooted in reality, or perhaps a future reality or something...

m1thr0s


aaaaah! m1thr0s, so cool


I can sense their auras too. I can't talk about any of my stories here. I'm curious about what you would think if I told you -

I've had dreams like that before. When someone has nothing to lose, what else is there? Cosmic reunion....and tantra...lol

[MythMath]

temper tantra... :p

[Naomi]

very punny

[m1thr0s]

Looking at things from a purely technical angle, we are really having to confront a very lofty standard of technology to begin with. In one sense, that's where this dream was right on target.

Let us imagine for a moment that being on the right side vs the wrong side of justice has nothing to do with specific actions at all, but rather has to do with how those actions impact ecosystem. Let us further imagine that people are a kind of "ecosystem" that can either be in a state a health or sickness. One way of determining guilt or innocence would be looking at the ecosystem itself to see what condition it was in. If it was in a diseased or disfigured condition we would know it was on the wrong side of justice, since justice is all about balance...it always has been...and that's why this whole thing might actually be doable eventually.

So there may be ways of approaching this whole thing that are a lot more akin to medical science than they are to traditional law & order...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Like on the tower tarot card, where you see the people falling and screaming but it doesn't matter at all - the lightning itself cares about balance, not about the protestations.

[m1thr0s]

it may just happen to be the case that people have no actual right to be spiritually deformed. Physical infirmity comes with the territory as does all manner of poverty and neglect but IFF "every man and every woman is a star", for instance, they may not actually have any justification for not being stars!

So if a star becomes a monster...well...there may be no excuse that justifies that disfiguration at all...

In such a case we are free to dispatch the monster with perfect impunity in all cases. If the person clings to the monster then the person is a wash anyway. If he/she does not...but somehow manages to pull out at the last minute and return to his/her proper orbit...then the person in not a wash and is free to "leave the court" and continue about his/her business...

I just think there is a way to do this...I'm not sure how it all plays out exactly but I do think that in the end the odds are more in favor of it than against it. But this is sort of what I am hitting on when I say that doing justice "on people" is not the same as affecting justice at all. It's a little easier for me to see this because I regard people as phantoms anyway...a transitional species (as I have said) that have more in common with bookmarks than they would otherwise care to admit.

note: "IFF" is a formal philosophy term btw = "If and Only If"...just in case anybody was wondering...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Well that's an entirely new perspective I've never heard before. Pretty heavy stuff...

Worth considering since most of the people around us are in fact monsters, if not to others, usually to themselves.

We have many tools available to us to attain balance - I found them on my own, the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, for instance. Why are these not being acquired and applied to the problem? It's not that hard to find.

What's the biggest obstacle here? Is it fear? Perhaps it's a great big lie sitting somewhere within the human mind itself or smtg.

[m1thr0s]

I don't know...lots of reasons I guess. Many of the mystic schools made a fatal error very early on in the scheme of things by drawing an artificial line between the physical and the spiritual, more or less demonizing the physical in the bargain. This renders spirituality uninteresting to anyone captivated with the physical. Unfortunately the line is false, but it has been drawn with such force that it's nearly impossible to undraw it now.

So that's one thing...there's a lot of factors all sort of lumped in together...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I know! That's what really struck me with Niguma's assertion that "All is Mind". One could just as easily reassert that as "All is Physical", but it's the same thing.

"All is Illusion" is much too selfish and somewhat destructive in and of itself to be of any use to us.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

it may just happen to be the case that people have no actual right to be spiritually deformed. Physical infirmity comes with the territory as does all manner of poverty and neglect but IFF "every man and every woman is a star", for instance, they may not actually have any justification for not being stars!

I find it difficult to follow this line of thought. Do black holes then have no right to exist? What then is this balance thing exactly? Are we not being a bit homocentric here? Does Justice have any validity outside of humanity? Or are we transposing our own baggage onto the rest of the Universe?

What happens when the Unstopable meets the Unmovable? The Unstopable stops and the Unmovable moves. Is Paradox the only true universal form of Balance?

[Naomi]

Black holes function perfectly just the way they are - I was contemplating that very force of nature today. Like water to fire....kali is the divine ma

[m1thr0s]

wow...that's a l-o-n-g way from anything I was intending to assert. Sure blakholes have a right to exist...why wouldn't they?

as far as the star theory goes...we aren't really talking about that kind of star. I'm not sure where homocentricism figures into things since I'm not homocentric at all.

I don't buy into the paradox = reality idea myself...I think it's just double-talk that leads to nowhere useful. I like paradoxes and all of that. I just don't feel that reality is an aimless sort of thing for anybody.

These are all interesting questions but I have no idea how you have extracted them from anything I might have said. Maybe you could clarify?

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

m1thr0s is some kind of pro humanist but he's also some kind of alien.

edit:

On a destructive tangent I think black holes are probably functioning as a kind of new universe reseeding process...not recycling...rejuvenating

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Sure blakholes have a right to exist

To clarify...with "black holes" I was following the no-right-not-to-be-a-star thing and replacing "monsters" with a suitable stellar equivalent.

But clarification is what I myself am getting at. When we talk of Justice and Balance, what exactly are we talking about beyond Human ethics? Suggesting that monsters have no right to exist on a cosmic level confuses me, mostly because it transposes the concept of 'rights' onto Being.

[silentjohn]

...what would you do?




I would impose justice.

[m1thr0s]

Does Justice have any validity outside of humanity?
this question I can answer I think...i don't believe for an instant that human beings are the only form of evolved intelligence in the universe, nor the most intelligent species that universal nature has evolved. Justice is going to have immediate relevance to any thinking beings responsive to the conditions of Injustice and this is always going to hinge upon oppressions not rooted in necessity itself. So wherever we find thinking beings who have been wronged...or at least perceive themselves as having been wronged...we are going to find beings who have some vested interest in the notion of Justice.

I have no idea how many species this might amount to and I really don't know if it is an idea that species eventually outgrow or not, but I tend to doubt it. I think that our awareness of injustice is one of the things that propels us towards a more perfect equilibrium on both a personal as well as a societal levels. So I think it's an integral evolutionary awareness that ultimately leads to some kind of resolution and thus an even higher state of awareness.

We can negate Justice as a construct...we can say it's just in our heads and pretend it doesn't affect us but when we are wronged...or perceive ourselves to be wronged...that facade comes off. We are locked into Justice so long as we are subject to Injustice and even if this is no more than our own perception of things, it's real enough to motivate us and that's all that really matters.

So I can't see where people are the only ones for whom it matters unless we allow that humans are the only ones who can formulate the construct. That may be the case for all I actually know but I have no proof of this and it doesn't strike me as very likely. Even housecats will complain if they don't get fed on time...and I mean really complain about it! Animals have their own sorts of rules and protocols and so on and when the lines are crossed the shit hits the fan. Justice as a bunch of words may be a human thing but I don't feel that Justice itself actually is. I think it's a kind of self-awareness hard-wired into our psyches...rooted in self-preservation on a very basic level.

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

To clarify...with "black holes" I was following the no-right-not-to-be-a-star thing and replacing "monsters" with a suitable stellar equivalent.

But clarification is what I myself am getting at. When we talk of Justice and Balance, what exactly are we talking about beyond Human ethics? Suggesting that monsters have no right to exist on a cosmic level confuses me, mostly because it transposes the concept of 'rights' onto Being.
I see..."monsters" is a loaded term then...I probably should have chosen something better. I don't see blackholes as monsters. For one thing, so far as we know right now, there wouldn't exist stable galactic systems without them. What I am calling a "monster" in this context is a hideous distortion of what should otherwise be the norm...and these are generally personnas that people have created out of their own ass that nature itself never did give either birth or license to, specifically. Have you seen the Last King of Scotland? Idi Amin was a raging monster. That shit has no rightful place anywhere at any time. If you were to observe that "person" on an astral level, you would not be looking at a person and you sure as hell would not be observing any kind of "star" as emanates from Universe itself. This is a deformed, aborted, failed specimen of human sub-species. Whatever "person" was once attached to it was long ago devoured until only the "monster" itself remained.

It's late and I need more time to go over this other thing. I'll return to it as soon as I can.

Ok...as to the second part, I'm not terribly interested in trying to resolve these loftier questions of Justice & Balance on a universal scale. This topic isn't supposed to be that intense, or at least that was not my intention. I come from the assumption that humans are born into this world with a "first order of business" already carved out for them as a matter of having been born human to begin with. Everything else they do in life is secondary to that first order of business, whether they acknowledge that or not. IFF every man and every woman is a star, then reclaiming that stardom is this first order of business and the reality is that most people aren't going to even attempt to do this in one fell swoop and I don't blame anybody for that. But if you are born a star and become a worthless piece of shit, I think you have a problem that is a whole lot bigger than you figured it for. People may have a right to fail at Completion but I do not believe they have a right to become something less than they were born. We can debate that this is all a value judgment and indeed it is...I've met all kinds of shit in this world and I know exactly what it is. I don't really care why it came to be this way. Things are what they are and if I had the power to eradicate it from the face of the earth, I imagine I would probably do it for the simple pleasure of it and nothing else.

But I know that being able to actually do such a thing would require ME to finish what I myself have started first and I don't really know that this will be possible. If it happens, things are gonna get thinned out a bit in this world, I can guarantee you that. In the example of Idi Amin, for instance, we have an especially troubling sort of thing to deal with. Idi Amin himself was, in some respects, just a psycho-circus act. The real monsters were all the sadistic shitheads standing right behind him ready and eager to do any kind of brutality whatsoever for what...money? prestige? power? And what was their excuse? They were ignorant fucking peasants?

So sorry...excuse rejected...every man and every woman is not an ignorant fucking peasant...

So if I had my way...they would have all wound up as catfood - shot dead on sight with no explanation given and no clues left at the scene - and I would be apologizing to my cats that I didn't have time to get them their preferred salmon stew which is almost certainly a better grade of meat anyway...

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

This topic must turn into a complicated debate about the nature of Justice, its inadvertable I think.

To create Justice one has to:
First think about what is just and not, then agree with others about a system of justice and modify it by what m1thr0s called the human star element. That means that there are things like a sense of justice for balance and for ethics, a human conscious that gives us- some more some less- a good sense for whats right and wrong.

Then this system can be used as an ideal (of justice). The execution of wrongs itself then should also follow some rules: for example is it not wise to give victims or offenders the authority to judge in their own cases cause then they could easily over-do their "justice", theyd be biased...but one could compensatethem or give them the right to execute their offenders themselves...fairness and equality have to be balanced,and so on ...and so the (human) system was created more or less.

There are so great injustices everywhere that I dont know if it is better or worse than it always has been. Justice sometimes struggles very hard with material wealth (if youre rich basically nothing can happen etc...) and other influences an its corrupt human executors...

For one I can say that the abra system is very balancing- relentlessly so in my experience- and thats already a good sign- cause balance is a prime element of justice. But of course it has to be supplemented with said human star element (from stars we come to stars we go), and that partly inborn maybe partly learned sense for justice...maybe then if it does mutate us in unprecedented ways there will be those who can agree on a higher justice, or walk in higher justice, manifest it without effort, and have the means to execute it; and then maybe the clumsy human approaches to it will be made obsolete.

[Anibis]

it may just happen to be the case that people have no actual right to be spiritually deformed. Physical infirmity comes with the territory as does all manner of poverty and neglect but IFF "every man and every woman is a star", for instance, they may not actually have any justification for not being stars!

So if a star becomes a monster...well...there may be no excuse that justifies that disfiguration at all...

In such a case we are free to dispatch the monster with perfect impunity in all cases. If the person clings to the monster then the person is a wash anyway. If he/she does not...but somehow manages to pull out at the last minute and return to his/her proper orbit...then the person in not a wash and is free to "leave the court" and continue about his/her business...

I just think there is a way to do this...I'm not sure how it all plays out exactly but I do think that in the end the odds are more in favor of it than against it. But this is sort of what I am hitting on when I say that doing justice "on people" is not the same as affecting justice at all. It's a little easier for me to see this because I regard people as phantoms anyway...a transitional species (as I have said) that have more in common with bookmarks than they would otherwise care to admit.

note: "IFF" is a formal philosophy term btw = "If and Only If"...just in case anybody was wondering...

m1thr0s


Well of course, we are not that far off in our views... My notion of producing a frequency which affects all beings such that their adjustment or lack of adjustment is directly addressed to the degree that their own form merits it seems to be the same as you say: holding people to the standard of being a star. No problem their. 'Doing justice on people' came up as a result of envisioning people from this forum dressing up like giant bats or whatever and going visiting... THat's where I draw the line, and maybe that is not even being considered, but I think there has been an undertone of it in this conversation... How to you go from willing and spreading justice through auric means to going and effecting justice physically in the world, ie by becomming a vigilante? I do actually think that many of the magicks which are ust beginning to emerge here will be instrumental in re-aligning the balance, and that your physician's allegory is the correct one, IMO...
-Anibis

[m1thr0s]

How to you go from willing and spreading justice through auric means to going and effecting justice physically in the world, ie by becomming a vigilante? depends on your weapons in my opinion...you wouldn't call Shiva a vigilante yet he kills at a glance and destroys entire universes...you wouldn't call Ra Hoor Khut a vigilante but his MO is virtually identical. Nearly all the wrathful deities I am aware of have very little to no patience at all for mediocrity or bullies and often prey upon the weak or the vile or the cowardly etc...no one calls them vigilantes. I think that if your standards of execution are high enough you are exempted from these kinds of platitudes which really only pertain to those who assume an authority they have not actually attained to. If you can kill at a glance...you have a perfect right to do so. If you can take out whole armies with magick...you're a freaking messiah, man...you just left "vigilante" in the dirt...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

This topic must turn into a complicated debate about the nature of Justice, its inadvertable I think.You're probably right K...dammit...just wanted to have a bit of fun with this. I suppose it's all relative though...you should see my war strategy re: China though...it seriously rocks...lol...

They should have left Tibet the fuck alone is all I can tell you...Mahakala is not amused.

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

I do at the end of the day think that Justice must first be invited into the hall of one's own soul... THEN when attuned, one becomes an instrument to carry that justice to others... One becomes capable of expressing justice in accordance with whatever one's particular talents are...

As for the discussion, I think it's great... one of the most hopping threads we've had here for a while...

-Anibis

[m1thr0s]

I do at the end of the day think that Justice must first be invited into the hall of one's own soul... THEN when attuned, one becomes an instrument to carry that justice to others... One becomes capable of expressing justice in accordance with whatever one's particular talents are...that's exactly right...rather...that's the process as I understand it. Certainly the average gump reading through all of this would think the whole thing looney tunes but power is really not the province of gumps, as we know. There is a certain price to be paid, then you can cut loose with a little panache...not so much before.

Even assuming a stabilized omnipotence there are certain complications that enter into things at junctions. Not everything that appears to be an injustice necessarily is and so on...there are global ebbs & flows to be weighed...some things exist solely to be overcome and so on. Even powerful magi's with the power to waste whole nations still have to watch their backs a little...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Did you ever see the old tv show 'Dinosaurs'? It was the silliest tv show but what it depicted was a human-like mockery of everything that dinosaurs were - fat lazy slobs with human complexes withering in the face of corrupting entropy. Dinosaurs were actually hot blooded vibrant creatures who ruled the earth for hundreds of times the span of time humans have been here - that's including individual species too.

Humans are mostly a spastic failure complete with all the degenerative disorders marking a species doomed for extinction. It's no small wonder they produce idiotic television shows to make them feel better about their monstrousness.

We can choose to evolve, or die. Justice isn't even really the main question on the floor here in any occult discussion - progression towards a more natural and harmonious way of being is the first duty of any occultist. That duty is to the universe herself and not any human construct or paradigm.

I think if Nu Kua had visited China today she would have been killed before she could remember what she had come for...

[Naomi]

But if you are born a star and become a worthless piece of shit, I think you have a problem that is a whole lot bigger than you figured it for. People may have a right to fail at Completion but I do not believe they have a right to become something less than they were born. We can debate that this is all a value judgment and indeed it is...I've met all kinds of shit in this world and I know exactly what it is. I don't really care why it came to be this way. Things are what they are and if I had the power to eradicate it from the face of the earth, I imagine I would probably do it for the simple pleasure of it and nothing else.

I think you're totally right on this note. I have my theories about why things are the way they are, and it's not pretty by any means. Our friends are not called "Dharma Guardians" for nothing.


When Naljor, a middle aged monk in India visited the cremation ground where a fierce Dakini was said to reside, he was not looking for comfort and material pleasure. Isn't that what most of the other humans are seeking in this world? Anyways as he knelt there in the burning grounds hoping and praying for the dakini Niguma to visit him, he felt a creeping, horrific sensation wrap around his body - this is the feeling of enlightenment at first encounter. rofl

But he was brave and stayed still. And then he looked up and saw me---er, Niguma looking down at him from the clouds - she looked extremely ugly! This was because of his perceptions from his physical body. She was smeared with blood and surrounded by other ugly women - I think the Dionysus had followers like this as well.

Once he realized he had succeeded in attracting the dakini's attention he was mindful enough to hold onto that link and offer the traditional gestures. She took his "gold" - his alchemically balanced soul and took it up into the clouds with her. And thus he was transformed. Then he came back down and imparted these teachings and made a big mess of things. I don't like the Shangpa Kagyu. They should really know better. Trying to help people is fine, but like with Christianity when it becomes dogma it only acts as another fetter for humanity.

So, I see why you are hesitant to create a book. Perhaps you could put a note in there warning about that.

This conversation is magnificient! You should start more topics!

edit:

oh Niguma was also a real...human too, which is kind of weird but that's how it works...Naljor had seen her before but he didn't know who she was or that they were the same. She definately knew though ....nine bodies, I guess that's like the body of light...

You know Niguma never had a problem with killing *and* eating people - she's not called the cannibal dakini for fun. Offerings to Mahakala in "offering type" thangkas (they don't depict the deity, just the offerings) usually depict lots of chopped up bodies and organs and intestines draped on a tree on a field of black.

Sure, so our mind has to watch out for #1 - our lowest body, but it's also the most potent body because it's where the light from above concludes in the descent to a tiny point, like the burning point of a magnifying glass under the sun. The clearer the light the fiercer the burn. It's about selflessness really. Devotion liberates. Money is a huge obstacle because it is usually acquired selfishly - you are catering mostly to the selfish desires of corporate monsters. That's annoying.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

'Doing justice on people' came up as a result of envisioning people from this forum dressing up like giant bats or whatever and going visiting... THat's where I draw the line, and maybe that is not even being considered, but I think there has been an undertone of it in this conversation... How to you go from willing and spreading justice through auric means to going and effecting justice physically in the world, ie by becomming a vigilante?

I think it's fair and valid to include in a discussion such as this one the practicalities of implementing an intervention through magical means, whether auric or in a more hands on fashion.

[Anibis]

Absolutely fair and valid. As fair and valid as my challenges to the notion....
-Anibis

[m1thr0s]

I guess my feeling is that if you have the ability to turn into a giant bat and visit vengeance upon garbage in this way, then you have a perfect right to do so...maybe even an obligation to do so...afterall...it's a pretty rare ability.

(Mahakala is a giant bat by the way so it even follows a certain classical form...)

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

Lol. Difficult to argue with that.... Funny image, really... Not sure though that all this isn't crossing the line into the personal, and I would say that justice is impersonal... vengeance not so much... Are you attacking the out of wack energy, or the person... or IS the person the out of wack energy... I really do think that justice and injustice is structural to a great degree and that's where we should aim for... I mean, if for example we are all on a boat, and it's sinking, and there is a lifeboat that can fit everybody... except that that lifeboat has a door, and that door is such that only those whose aura's vibrate at a certain frequency can pass through it, that is fair to me... people can always work to remodulate their energy... its a fair game... it doesn't strike me as so fair to get together a hunting party from the lifeboat and enter the sinking boat for the purpose of tossing people who cannot pass through the door overboard (or keelhauling them, or just scaring the shit out of them). Similar idea to the chamber of Maat. If you pass through, you pass through, if not, you get devoured by Ammet. Nobody from the chamber of kings is going to leave said chamber and start hauling people in, are they? Will they themselves not be weighed in the same way each time they re-enter? Basically we have the building blocks of a just society. We are going to be called on to build it in our lifetimes, because the social structure around us is a patchwork frankenstein ruled in large part by creeps with big guns... I am more contect to work on devising the new structure in such a way as to cut out the corruption structurally, which means building an internally coherent set of mathematical patterns into time, into thought, into education, into beurocracy... I don't see the value in sport-hunting token assholes... It's too likely to become corrupt itself, IMO...

But, all that being said, I AM pro Bat-suits...
-Anibis

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Not sure though that all this isn't crossing the line into the personal, and I would say that justice is impersonal
Not necessarily. A magus will inevitably be confronted with a direct situation where he or she will have to choose between intervention and nonintervention, and nonintervention in this instance would amount to complicity with an injustice.

I have to add that, while we seem to be concentrating on individual entities in this discussion, this matter of injustices also includes a wider range of issues such as historical injustices, and interventions to restore balance can include exorcisms.

[Anibis]

I agree with you CCD, and I for one find the posture of 'neutrality' in the face of actual injustice to be abhorrent. So yes, take action to right the imballance... Guess where all of this perturbs me is the issue of vengeance and taking pleasure in vengeance, since it seems liable to became it's own nemesis. Take for example the period of the 'Terror' in post revolutionary France, or the great Stalinist purges, or any number of times where justice has turned to vengeance has turned to tyranny. And this all tends to occur when some person mistakes their egoistic goals for the measure of the just. I for one would like to see a notion of justice that is less easily whored to power...
-Anibis

[Naomi]

So become Ammit - or rather, get her on your side, thus her abilities become your abilities. She's not that ugly, is she?

Mahakala is a giant bat, of course, of course (http://www.allsaintsschool.org/Students/Michael/batman%27s%20bio.htm)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Well, as ever, one has to consider the consequences of ones actions. A vigilante who rushes into things will most likely cause more harm than good -and to the wrong people. Precision is the key to success in such ventures, but this can only be learned and honed through experience of the mechanics involved, though of course learning from the experience of others can save one from making unecessary mistakes. Likewise, when it comes to vengeance, "Revenge is a dish best served cold". While I don't dispute the philosophical failings of vengeance, it has to be said that in certain circumstances it can be a valid option as a course of action.

[m1thr0s]

We haven't really talked all that much about specific attack strategies so I think it's a little premature to start assessing the problems involved. I do think it's a mistake to try to take all the fun out of it though...Shiva reminds us...destruction is a dance, the same as creation. While I can understand concerns over getting too fixated on dealing out death and mayhem, I don't feel like the warning much pertains to me and I doubt it pertains much to anyone posting on this so far. There's a lot to be said for enjoying the ride for what it is...not making any more or less of it than that.

I also do not perceive this as the whole gambit in itself...I have thought quite a lot about all of this for some reason so I sort of know what you are driving at here. There has to be a multi-pronged sort of agenda happening at all times. If something is going to be eliminated, something else needs to be replaced...that's all a part of this overriding *balance* we keep returning to. When the two things are working in perfect tangent...creation & detruction...you're a lot more likely to be on target and actually getting something useful accomplished.

But I'm not going to pretend it wouldn't be a freaking gas taking out the Mafia or whatever happened to be on the hit list at any given time. I think it's possible to enjoy the hell out of all of this...you know...whistle while you work sort of thing...lol...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

But I'm not going to pretend it wouldn't be a freaking gas taking out the Mafia or whatever happened to be on the hit list at any given time. I think it's possible to enjoy the hell out of all of this...you know...whistle while you work sort of thing...lol...

Hehe, definately. Scaring Christians is fun too, though they pretty much do most of the work themselves.