The Power to say "NO"

[Kuroyagi]

The power of negation or the will to say "NO" is an often used...well, one could even call it: common place of many Satanist groups and myhts (adversary, rebel etc.) but if one looks closer at it its a concept that goes very deep right to the core of "Life" itself, straight to the mysteries of individuality and other things...

So I'd be looking forward on everyones thoughts about it...

[deviadah]

I have a little story that goes with this subject...

I was out on the street the other day talking to a friend I knew that represented Save the Children (as a fundraiser on the street). This crazy guy runs up and says to her: ask me a question I can say no to. She got stunned and asked what he meant and he went in to a long speech about not watching TV, get out and create something from the roots instead of picking the fruits, about saying yes to things one would normaly refuse thereby changing the course of ones life, about taking charge and not being a sheep etc... anyway at the end of the speech (which made sense to me) he asked her: ask me a question I can say yes to. She asked: want to support Save the Children? He answered: no, and left.

She thought he was crazy, as did a friend of mine that was also there. I was probably the only one affected by it on a deeper level. He might have been crazy, but the excellent way + twist of his speech made a lot of sense.

Basically if she had asked from the beginning if he wanted to support Save the Children he would not have said no, but yes.

[m1thr0s]

*Neti-Neti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti)* is really one of the most potent philosophical stratagems ever devised and is just as relevant today as it ever has been...possibly moreso since we are so infested today with superficial assertions of attainment.

It does have its own pitfalls but these are fairly easily circumvented by the prudent. In general, nearly all forward advances in knowledge do in fact originate as positive assertions of *possible realities* which are then meticulously followed up on and tested and finally proved or disproved. The pivotal factor here is one of recognizing your own assumptions and not allowing those to masquerade as established facts when they are not.

Saying *no* (to virtually everything) is very often a necessary precursor to learning how to say *yes* where *yes* can actually lend itself to something legitimately productive.

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Actually I enjoy the game where one attempts to answer in the affirmative or negative without using the words "yes" or "no". This is particularly easy if you speak a Celtic language and use Celtic grammatical rules in your answers. Basically we only say "yes" or "no" in very few instances, there being a variety of responses depending on what the question is. It's also easy to use, as the answer lies in how the question is formulated. Here are some examples:

Are you tired?
I am (not)

Have you got a car?
I have (not)

Will you talk to your boss?
I will (not)

Is there a bar round here?
There is (not)

Do you like Chopin?
I do (not)

etc etc

[fr.novumorganum]

excellent topic, and one of my *sacred* themes...

I firmly believe that the power to say NO is the first Affirmation of Life and Will

I--not I the first spark of self-reflection

[Ratatosk]

And NO is incredibly important in the Heathen path as well. That ability to say no to anything is incredibly necessary to dealing with the godforms involved. And the understanding that it is not this or that or the other, but all and none of them at the same time.

[frater luciferi]

had at one point thought that i could chase down the divine, but the only real dealings i had with it was not "Angels" , maybe strange spiritual occurances. but usually it was thunder or lightning, winds, that sort of thing. <--reaction to the wikipedia article on neti neti, a concept that deserves study. destroying the human framework of the perspective reality vs. the truth reality--which in a sense I guess is the absolute or DAO. but i guess in regards to the whole ask a question in which i could say yes thing i guess i would respond with my own egoistic statement----

to never bow one must never bow.

[MythMath]

Neti neti 'is not' similar to this concept:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e4/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-variations-thumb.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity

[m1thr0s]

that's just sick...morons should not be allowed to denigrate the good name of geometry...aaarrrggghhh...

no matter...I've got a nuclear shield that can make short work of their plywood version...

m1thr0s

[frater luciferi]

didnt they rip off the whole trinity thing from the celts? just so they could use that damn symbol ?

[m1thr0s]

yeah...I think that's right...the three interlocking circles ditty (can't recall its name)...not to mention several zillion triskelion variants etc...

oh well...xianity never really did win any awards for originality anyway...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Thought I'd drop in some visual aids,
don't let me interrupt the conversation, though...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/BorromeanRings-Trinity.png/240px-BorromeanRings-Trinity.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borromean_rings

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Irish_clover.jpg
According to Irish legend, the druids in Ireland looked at the shamrock as a sacred plant
because its leaves formed a triad. Three was a mystical number in the Celtic religion.

Then St Patrick, who was thought to be born in Wales, used the shamrock in the
5th century to teach people about Christianity as he traveled around Ireland.

He told people that each of the three leaves illustrated the Father,
the Son and the Holy Spirit of the Holy Trinity.

Old Irish manuscripts make no reference to this in connection
with St Patrick, so this is likely to be pure mythology.

source: The truth behind the shamrock, from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3519116.stm)
___________________________________________

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Triple-Spiral-Symbol.svg/150px-Triple-Spiral-Symbol.svg.png
This spiral motif is a Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) symbol in Western Europe:
it is carved into the rock of a stone lozenge near the main
entrance of the prehistoric Newgrange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange) in County Meath, Ireland.

And finally:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Irish_Air_Corps_roundel.svg/120px-Irish_Air_Corps_roundel.svg.png
A triskelion shape is also found in the Roundel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundel) of the Irish Air Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Air_Corps) (unique among air force roundels).
It is loosely based on the Flag of Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland) and traditional Celtic triskele boss designs.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskelion
____________________________________________
_________________________________________
______________________________________

Some great distilled geo-graphics on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundel

[m1thr0s]

Kinda makes you wanna dance a little jig...lol...

love the oldest one...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

The trinity is often thought of as coming from the Celts, but is more likely to have its origin in the Mediterranean world. There are remnants of the trinity concept in Celtic folklore, but in fact you'll find that most of what we "know" about Celtic trinities in fact comes from the comic character Slaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A1ine_(comics)) of 2000 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_AD_%28comic%29) and New Agey literature on ancient European matriarchies.

The neolithic triskel has become a modern day symbol of the Celts, but there is no authentic interpretation for this symbol, other than the importance of 3. That is to say that often people will write "the triskel is this" and "the triskel is that", but in fact they are guessing.

[m1thr0s]

well then...who carved the spiral???

I don't know...I have to think that if the Celts were not into some form of "trinity" it would probably make them just about the only people on earth who weren't. The whole triangulation thing is so prevalent that there really is noplace you can go where it cannot be found exalted in some form or another...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

well then...who carved the spiral???

I don't know...I have to think that if the Celts were not into some form of "trinity" it would probably make them just about the only people on earth who weren't. The whole triangulation thing is so prevalent that there really is noplace you can go where it cannot be found exalted in some form or another...

m1thr0s

I'm not saying the Celts weren't into trinities and triads, far from it, I'm just saying that a lot of stuff that is taking as read about the Celtic Tradition these days is actually speculative interpretation. And that, as you say, there was plenty of it going on elsewhere without the Christian trinity needing to be attributed to a purely Celtic source.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

The wikipedia entry is quite informative: Triskelion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskel), though I suspect that we've gone way off topic. Sorry K.

[frater luciferi]

http://www.aboutulverston.co.uk/celts/magatamas.htm

i use this link for a disclamer for the tattoo i have on my left arm. sometimes i have had to explain. :p

[Ci Celli Ddu]

http://www.aboutulverston.co.uk/celts/magatamas.htm

i use this link for a disclamer for the tattoo i have on my left arm. sometimes i have had to explain. :p

Oh dear. The 'translation' from the Welsh is awful to say the least. Caer Sidi / Caer Siddi (not 'Caer Sidin') means "Fortress of the Zodiac" or "Fortress of the Elves", not "circle of Sidin". It is truly amazing what utter rubbish people will come up with when it comes to "translating" Welsh, seemingly ignorant of the fact that there are a fair amount of us 700,000+ Welsh speakers on the internet, and that we are all able to read English. :rolleyes:

[Oblio]

Isn't babelfish good enough? :P

Excuse my ignorance, but does Caer = fortress or zodiac/elves?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Isn't babelfish good enough? :P

Excuse my ignorance, but does Caer = fortress or zodiac/elves?

Caer comes from the Latin Castrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra), and means fortress or castle.

Sidi or Siddi is thought to be either related to the word Sidydd (Zodiac) or derived from the Irish Sidhe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhe), meaning 'fairy'

[Oblio]

Cool, thanks - but now I can't seem to get Tim the Enchanter's voice out of my head :D

To the north there lies a cave - the cave of Caer Bannog!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Cool, thanks - but now I can't seem to get Tim the Enchanter's voice out of my head :D

You've completely lost me there, Oblio :o_O:

[Oblio]

Monty Python, and the Holy Grail :rofl:

[frater luciferi]

Oh dear. The 'translation' from the Welsh is awful to say the least. Caer Sidi / Caer Siddi (not 'Caer Sidin') means "Fortress of the Zodiac" or "Fortress of the Elves", not "circle of Sidin". It is truly amazing what utter rubbish people will come up with when it comes to "translating" Welsh, seemingly ignorant of the fact that there are a fair amount of us 700,000+ Welsh speakers on the internet, and that we are all able to read English. :rolleyes:

lame, i knew this page smelled a little fishy. oh well, as far as i know the rest of it is pretty accurate for the most part. at least it graphically displays the similaritys of differing versions of the symbol. and that was what i was trying to point out or get across.

[Kuroyagi]

*Neti-Neti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti)* is really one of the most potent philosophical stratagems ever devised and is just as relevant today as it ever has been...possibly moreso since we are so infested today with superficial assertions of attainment.

It does have its own pitfalls but these are fairly easily circumvented by the prudent. In general, nearly all forward advances in knowledge do in fact originate as positive assertions of *possible realities* which are then meticulously followed up on and tested and finally proved or disproved. The pivotal factor here is one of recognizing your own assumptions and not allowing those to masquerade as established facts when they are not.

Saying *no* (to virtually everything) is very often a necessary precursor to learning how to say *yes* where *yes* can actually lend itself to something legitimately productive.

m1thr0s
Yeah thats actually deep "moon". No, it really is. The problem and danger I often experience/d with this "Aristoltelian" either-or view (whose avoidance is hinted by neti-neti) was that even if one said "No" to the mainstream point of view, which was difficult enough, one would be quite forcibly cornered into the opposite position by default; and then as a consequence could be "forced" to identify oneself with it- this opposite-, somehow involuntarily, while one would have actually have had an alternative view to both of those if given more creative rein of freedom. (and also either the mainstream position or the adverse one could be the correct ones so that it can be quite productive to first as a test say no to both)...yes its sometimes difficult to decide/create, but that faculty can be trained, it can be forged, "steeled" in the best sense.

Thanks for the answers you all, I didn't have much time recently, but now I'm looking forward to reading all of the replies...:)

[m1thr0s]

Yeah thats actually deep "moon". No, it really is.???
Never heard that expression so I'll have to take your word for it...lol

m1thr0s