VIII et XI

[Ci Celli Ddu]

The older decks that I have come across place Justice as number 8 and Strength as number 11, yet many guide books and other Tarot sets often swap their positions. Why?

[Anibis]

In the associating of astrological signs to the numbered cards of the tarot the logical/chronological order is Strength 8, justice 11. The marsielles deck has this reversed, as does Crowley Thoth Deck. I Think it is an error or a blind, myself. I see no reason to create a disymetry in the deck. The raw details are this: take the letters Aleph-Tau and lay them out chronologically on the paths of the TOL. Divide them into 'Mothers, doubles, and simple letters', and assign the zodiac in order to the twelve simples, the planets (in Platonic order) to the seven double letters, and the three qualities of fire water and air to the three 'Mother letters'. In the actual algorythm that lays out the signs to the letters and paths in this way, it becomes clear that leo comes before libra and thus should be numbered as 8 rather than 11. THe switch has certain docrinal implications (ie regarding th role of justice and power), but has really no mathematic justification for departing from the principle pattern by which the signs become associated with specific paths.
-Anibis

[Sibylle]

My understanding is that Arthur Edward Waite influenced the switching of the numbers attributed to Strength and Justice, as he felt that Strength (Leo) as number 8 was more in line with Golden Dawn and Kabalistic thought. Crowley adhered to the previous attributions in his deck, with Strength (Lust) as 11 and Justice (Adjustment) as 8.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Aha. I found this on Wiki:
Justice is traditionally the eighth card and Strength the eleventh, but the influential Rider-Waite-Smith deck (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/wiki/Rider-Waite-Smith_deck) switched the position of these two cards in order to make them better fit the astrological correspondences worked out by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn), under which the eighth card is associated with Leo and the eleventh with Libra.

If you take out the whole astrological equation completely and stick to the original positioning of the cards, does this order then still clash with the TOL 22 paths?