Ningishzidda FAQ's (Disputed)...

[dev]

Admin Note: Many of the *facts* in this thread have been shown to be unreliable and speculative and should not be treated as a scholarly presentation of anything. The discussion itself however is an important one so is being left intact as it originally unfolded (but for this note and title modification)...

You might have stumbled upon the name Ningishzidda, or Ng, during your visits to Abrahadabra Forums. I have taken the liberty to compile a FAQ so you quickly can get into this area. Now this FAQ won't have all the answers, but it might bring a lot of information together in the hope that you yourself might spawn an idea, or at least feel less lost in discussions concerning Ningishzidda. I am by no means the Ng expert around these parts and certainly not a scholar... this FAQ is subject to corrections, but that is what a discussion forum is all about.

For a lengthy thread on the subject see: Ningishzidda: The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325) or the article Ningishzidda Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm).



NINGISHZIDDA - Frequently Asked Questions





Who or what is Ningishzidda?

Well there is no short and clear answer to this question. But Ningishzidda, or Ng, was the son of Enki and Ereshkigal. The whole family tree is very complicated with several names for each individual, which just adds to the confusion. To simplify Ng can be viewed as the serpent-god of Mesopotamia and also as the mother goddess, or goddess of the earth/underworld. The notion that Ng has female aspects is debated, most assert that Ng is all male!

To generalize even further Ng could be viewed as an earlier version of Hermes.


It's [Ng] an archetype like Set or Lucifer or any other really. It's very old, corresponds to a whole class of serpentine archetypes...




How is Ningishzidda spelled?

There are many different ways to spell this word.


I am partial to *Ningishzidda* for purely personal reasons since it classes as an 11-letter word (viewing *sh* as a shin) whose notaricon (vowels removed) adds to 418 = Abrahadabra. The proof of this is here: N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418. Nevertheless, the more accepted spelling is Nin + Gish + Zida = Ningishzida, so you will tend to find more links under that spelling.

Other spellings are: Ningishzida, Ningizzida, Ningiszida, Ninjiczida, Ninñišzidda and others.




How is Ningishzidda represented?

As two serpents entwined around a rod. Ng is a polarity (duality).


Duality suggests a division in things whereas Polarity is hyphenating an organic Unity. Ebb & Flow are not a Duality but a Polarity and the very pulse of Life itself. We find this distinction hammered out over and over again in the attempt to clarify the true nature of Yin & Yang to the western world which seems hell-bent on breaking everything down into Dualities. The Chinese would argue most adamantly that Yin & Yang are not a Duality but rather a Polarity extant in all living things.




What does Ningishzidda got to do with Satanism?

Without going into a detailed account of the history of Satanism, or Luciferianism, let me simply state that if Ng is an ancient form of Isis, and Isis is a representation of Venus then we have a clear connection since Venus is the morning star, and that is what Lucifer represents.

Another more obvious connection is the fact that there was a Sepent in the Garden of Eden, an Ng is a serpent god.


...while the symbolism of the serpent in Genesis is true to its Hebrew origins, the name (or term) Satan never actually appears in the original text. This is a Christian association that was added on much later.




So what's the deal with this Serpent?

The serpent is an ancient symbol of wisdom and transformation and can be found represented in most religions and cultures in some form or another, often of a cosmic nature.

In astrology the serpent is featured as the 13th sign of the zodiac known as Ophiuchus Serpentarius (or Ophiuchusm), the Serpent Holder, which lies between Scorpio and Sagittarius. Plato called this 13th sign the God of the Underworld and later the Christians of the mediaeval ages changed it into the figure of St. Paul holding a viper before abandoning it altogether. Here again we see a God of the Underworld, as Ng was the Goddess of the Underworld (recall that Ng is a polarity).




So is it Ningishzidda that is crawling on the Caduceus of Hermes?

Yes...


“…traced as far back as 2600 B.C.E. The caduceus is depicted on the Libation Cup of Gudea [see image at the end of this post], a Sumerian artifact that was made around 2000 B.C.E., and Thoth is shown holding an early Egyptian caduceus in a mural at the Temple of Seti I that dates from 1300 B.C.E. The tall staff, the magic wand of Hermes, is topped by a winged solar disk with two serpents wrapped around a staff three times – a subtler reminder that the owner of the staff is the thrice greatest one. According to the immortal French alchemist Nicholas Flamel, the two serpents of the caduceus are the snakes or dragons which the ancient Egyptians painted in the form of a circle, each biting the other’s tail, in order to teach that they spring of and from One Thing.” from The Emerald Tablet – Alchemy for Personal Transformation by David William HauckThe famous Staff of Asclepius with a single serpent wrapped around it possibly became a symbol of medicine and healing because infections by parasitic worms were common. It is often confused with the Caduceus




Ningishzidda and Alchemy

So, apart from being an earlier form of the twined serpents on the Caduceus, Ng can also be viewed - in alchemical terms - as:


Ng=The Ambrosia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia), or Venom or also Dew [see below] of the Ouroboros (http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4f.html) Serpent itself... it's a word formula for The Philosophers Stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone)... or the original immortality elixir...

In alchemy dew "is symbolic of divine incarnation or manifestation from Above. Alchemists believed natural dew contained the divine Salt (thoughts of the One Mind) that could transform the Sulfur and Mercury of the First Matter. In many ways, dew represented the Elixir or contents of the cup of God, the Holy Grail." - from the Alchemy Electronic Dictionary (http://www.alchemylab.com/dictionary.htm)




Ningishzidda and the TwinStar

Wait, there's more...


In the TwinStar (http://www.abrahadabra.com/twinstar001.htm) it [Ng] pulls an unexpected surprize... if you use the full name to run your leylines you get N=1, I=2, N=3, G=(-), I=4, Sh=5, Z=6, I=7, D=8, D=9, A=10... so that N+G comes to occupy the same space in Ain Soph Aur (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=22870&postcount=41) in the Abrahadabra Grid... To make matters weirder the notaricon (ie vowels only) on the formal name adds to 418...

"Lift up thyself! for there is none like unto thee among men or among Gods! Lift up thyself, o my prophet, thy stature shall surpass the stars. They shall worship thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man; and the name of thy house 418." - Aleister Crowley from Liber AL vel Legis (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm) (The Book of the Law)

Some links:
TwinStar (http://www.abrahadabra.com/twinstar001.htm)
TwinStar Meditation Revamp... (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1764)
a question re: The TwinStar (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=335)
Exploring some Twin Star 'Lines' (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=2003)




So what's the deal with Ningishzidda and DNA?

Well the image of two entwined serpents resemble the double-helix. Ng created the human race, after the world was flooded as told in the Epic of Gilgamesh (and later mirrored in Genesis).


In the Sumerian creation story, humankind is not just created from fairy dust or mud or whatever but came about as an expression of this breeding technology. Ng was given the task of producing an animal smart enough to serve as a suitable workforce, and humankind was the result...part animal, part god in essence.


It doesn't necessarily mean that Ng was some sort of clinical DNA scientist per se or that the Sumerians were involved in anything resembling modern DNA research etc... And yet there are numerous indicators that genetics itself was understood on some very sophisticated levels by ancient peoples.

Ng exists, to paraphrase m1thr0s, completely outside of the DNA Code itself and yet it retains proximity via the greater 729 Code, add to this that in Abrahadabra it can be shown to originate in Ain Soph (Aur) (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=22870&postcount=41). What all this means is still not defined!



Hey wait a minute has this got anything to do with Shape-shifting lizards?

Yes and no.

Yes = Ng is serpentine and could be viewed as a lizard (as they have similar features). And some cultures refer to lizards instead of serpents.

No = David Icke might be correct that the world is run by elitist scumbags, but not that Ng is the force driving them. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if Ng equals DNA then of course these scumbags have DNA in their system - but so do you!

http://abrahadabra.com/images/Ng01.gif (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm)

Hope this was helpful, and if you want to dive deeper into this I yet again recommend the following links:

Thread: Ningishzidda: The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325)
Article: Ningishzidda Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm)

:cool:

[Moxormog]

Wow, Thank you.

[Anibis]

I found this link (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/history-of-alchemy-f8/ningishzidda-t79.htm#379). Naomi has a very stellar image of Ng poster here.
-A-

[m1thr0s]

Great work d...what can I say...Ng kicks ass...

According to some experts in this field of study the upcoming Aeon is assigned to Ningishzidda. We find these kinds of assertions in various places pertaining to different pantheons, since all evolved pantheons constitute a kind of cosmic clockwork mechanism. It is not so significant viewed only as a cosmetic "changing of the guard" in itself...

What is significant is that it predicts the re-emergence of a most ancient alchemical tradition coordinating head-on with the Information Age in the modern era. Since the type of alchemy Ng was involved in was inherently genetic in nature, the suggestion would be that the Aeon of Ng will find us rediscovering Genetic Alchemy at an accelerated pace & levels.

time will tell...

m1thr0s

[Frater SI]

Thanks for this Intro I was wondering what our Lady Naomi was going on about :) Funny I find allot of links to the whole lucifer , Lumiel , tubal cain ,venus , christ in Ng to .. The authors make some pretty good connections in the Tubal Cain and fallen angels book ..

[dev]

Funny I find allot of links to the whole lucifer , Lumiel , tubal cain ,venus , christ in Ng to...
True... Ng pops up both here and there!

Now when you feel you got the jist of Ng join the thread: Ng: The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325)

:cool:

[m1thr0s]

As a matter of form it should be pointed out that the feminine form of Ningishzidda is not the only form we find, historically speaking. There are two gender forms, as a matter of historical fact, which makes Ng just that more intriguing.

I have not committed an entire lifetime to uncovering this whole mystery but from what I can tell it is the masculine form that is almost certainly the oldest...yet we do find references to Ng as stated in the above coming a bit later in history. Exactly why this occurs is not clear to me but there does exist some historical evidence to suggest two gender forms, both identified as Ningishzidda.

In one sense at least it really doesn't break form in any remarkable way that this should happen in the case of Ningishzidda anyway, representing as it does the balance of yin and yang even from the earliest known depictions. But the dominant gender of this godform seems to have shifted from male to female over time and I am not clear whether this actually did occur as a matter of historical transitioning, or whether this is due to conflicting interpretations of ancient texts in modern times.

I have heard it said that Ningishzidda was a TwinGod form, even from the very beginning, although I have not been able to confirm this specifically. It does introduce another intriguing speculation at least...

Not to confuse things, but Ng is a complex archetype/godform...

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

Thanks, dev., I have followed this subject from the beginning on the other forum, with much interest. This is a very fascinating God and archetype, indeed. Everyone who contributed from m1thr0s, Q, SatsUrn- up to this forum and yours (dev.) with Naomi and the academics on Enuru have given me new insights. Just recently I thought how all the "components" of the classical Chinese dargon are already present (pre-figured?) in the image on Gudea's Cup: the bird's feet, the stags horns, the snakes that "became" the dragon's body and so on...it's not my own line of research but I am definitely enjoying and using the results everyone is contributing here!

Best wishes to all from K. :)

[izi]

So far as the original question you asked, after surveying some sources, we could address that. Part of what the original poster stated was:

"Ningishzidda, or Ng was the wife and mother of Dumuzi"

This logic train seems in so far as Ive seen, to be basically inaccurate before it even goes anywhere. While Ningishzida had as a fundamental aspect a fertilizing principal, this does not make him a mother goddess. While he was conceptually related to Dumuzi and even identified with wth the latter as a 'Dying god of fertility', this doesn't make Ningishzida that gods mother or wife. And beyond abundant indication in the myths of Ningishzida as male (I dont know any text that suggests otherwise) there is also the philological comment which Amarsin contributed earlier. (See the 'Ningishzidda and Gizzida names?' thread):

"The Sumerian "nin" means, in general, "queen" and is a common first element in Sumerian divine names. However, as this example (and many others) show, the "nin" must also refer to the masculine. Nin-gišzida is the son of Nin-azu, and so decidedly male. (Indeed, Nin-azu is Nin-gišzida's father, while his wife (and so Nin-gišzida's mother) is Nin-girida!)"


Besides a rigid view of nin as female, which as we see here is incorrect, the layman may arrive at Ningishzida as female or even as a mothergoddess by reading the below link, which I think seems pretty close to what the original poster was saying Lady H.

http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/TowerOfBabel.htm (http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/TowerOfBabel.htm)

However I dont believe Jim Cromwell is in anyways textually or factually amenable hrm from what Ive sifted through. So the question was "In your (scholarly) opinion, is the above paragraph in quotes true or not true?"
I dont have a scholarly opinion, but no. More to come on Ningishzida! I love an obscure deity

Also he is depicted with a beard, and had a wife. Ningishzidda is not a fucking mother deity....period.

[dev]

Ningishzidda is not a fucking mother deity....period.
Is gender such an issue?

What effects does a gender change have in your opinion?

[izi]

It's a tremendous issue. The entire basis of gender in humanity is polarized into yin and yang, two vastly different principles on a grand scale, the first two emergences of the one. From ground level this means shit to the absolute but in human perspective it defines very important aspects of Ningishzidda himself.

The fact that he is a male aspect of the sky gods acting in the underworld has important symbolic implications, as opposed to say an underworld based female goddess such as Ereshikigal. Ningishzidda in this capacity is awarded a position of authority in the underworld unexpectedly while Erishikigal is the queen of the underworld. It's an interesting juxtaposition and one worth looking at from the accurate anthropological record.

[izi]

Alright I'll simmer down!!!!

[dev]

From that perspective I guess gender is an issue, but I always saw polarities/dualities as two opposites that are supposed to merge i.e. Ng contain parts of both. Then of course there is the whole debate as to the physical issue of Ng. A human, a demon, a god, a starship, a fantasy, a metaphor, allegory... of course the answer to that we can only speculate. We will never know for sure unless there is some great discovery made!


Sometimes depicted as male and sometimes female gender... Ningishzida comprises one of the widest ranges of attributions of any godform ever recorded, from the Mother of Dumuzi in some instances to the younger son of Ea (or Enki) in others and rival to his elder brother Marduk, who was fundamentally a pompous thug by way of comparison. In the Sumerian creation cycle, it is Ningishzida who is called the Guardian of the Tree of Life and Keeper of the Gate of Heaven while also serving as Lord of the Underworld in his Mushushu Dragon form. He/She not only created humanity but also guides and protects it. - from Ningishzida Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm)

:cool:

[m1thr0s]

Right, I accept the two-fold nature of Ng according to its symbolism which is universally balanced male and female, the same as yin and yang. Having said that though, I have also learned that the least reliable informations we have access to are inevitably those portraying Ng as predominantly feminine. I don't think of Ng as feminine on a personal level but I can identify its feminine aspects through other iconographic standards such as Nu Kua and others...when the issue of dominance comes into play, I still regard Ng as predominantly masculine.

m1thr0s

[dev]

...when the issue of dominance comes into play, I still regard Ng as predominantly masculine.

One could say of Ng, as one does of women that are like men, that s/he is BUTCH!

:laugh:

[m1thr0s]

well, sure...one can say all kinds of things I guess...

there are a lot of things we stand to benefit from Ningishzidda if he is male that we don't as much if he is female, so this may also be a factor. As a male, he also sets a kind of genetic standard of maleness generally that profits humankind as a prototype...there are are all kinds of factors that enter into things on this...

m1thr0s

[izi]

Here is an article I posted on my own forum it comprises the most pertinent of 3 years worth of research:

http://www.dazimua.com/images/paintings/ningishziddasymbol-rainbow.jpg
Ningishzidda was the name used to denote a god originating in the Sumerian culture. He is an ancient god of snakes and death. In wartime, he is known as a benefactor of the good and a purveyor of retribution against the wicked. He shares the gift of fertility with his predecessors, his father Ninazu and most other serpent gods. The reasons for this are abundant in verifiable scholarly texts. (Not new age, wishy-washy shit like what you find on www.bibliotecapleyades.net or godlikeproductions nonsense) The ancient Sumerians lived in the region between the Tigris and Euphrates river, in what is now Iraq. Ĝišbanda and Lagash were two of the primary cities that worshipped Ningishzidda. King Gudea of Lagash comissioned many different works of stone, mostly of himself, but also including several of his personal god, Ningishzidda. One of these objects is the famous steatite Ningishzidda libation vessel, pictured below:

http://www.dazimua.com/images/mesopotamia/ningishziddalibationcup.jpg1631

The inscription states it is a dedication by Gudea to Ningishzidda, for the prolongation of his life.


This is one of the earliest depictions of the caduceus. It is approximately 4000 years old. We will see however, that this is not the oldest depiction. In a region called Choga Mish in Iran we find this cylinder imprint:

1632
http://www.dazimua.com/images/mesopotamia/chogamish_symbol.jpg

This symbol (or at least the vision of the symbol) is probably well over 7000 years old. The region of Khuzistan where Choga Mish was erected was first occupied in 6800 B.C. It is a very important discovery because it traces the sophisticated nature of transtigridian snake cults back even further than we have previously imagined in this region.

Ningishzidda is the son of Nin-azu. (literally - "grand physician") Nin-girida, Nin-azu's wife, is mentioned as Ningishzidda's mother. This makes Ereskigal his grandmother not his mother, as the op posted.

Nin-gišzida is the contemporary spelling of the name in most modern documents. However, we can use the spelling Ningishzidda because it shares the fortuitous number of 418 in Gematria with Abrahadabra. This is exquisitely wonderful. English did not exist at the time of Sumerian culture, so naturally we don't have to worry so much about spelling. It is truly wonderful the number comes out to equate that of Abrahadabra, one of the most ancient healing incantation/formulas on the planet.

His name means, literally one of a few different variations of ideas. "Lord of the Good Tree" alternately "Lord of the True Tree". Gizzida is also used in some later texts, as a shorthand form by the priests in the temples. His holdings at the temple were often vast, employing hundreds of priests and workers. It is known from temple documents that offerings included dates, goats, sheep and of course, barley! :raz:

Ningishzidda's Journey to the Underworld

In one myth pertaining to Ningishzidda, he is captured by the evil and demonic forces of the underworld. His sister laments his capture and begs to go with him. When Ningishzidda arrives in the underworld, he is freed from his bonds immediately, and given an office as a king of the underworld.

Therefore Ningishzidda, in some of his earliest representations can be thought of as a god of heaven who resides in the underworld. This makes him veritably special, as he represents heaven entering earth and upholding the laws of his earthly kingdom through the underworld. He obviously curries favor with Ereshkigal, who is queen of the underworld and a very early Sumerian deity. Both of them, according to various scholars, share association with the constellation Hydra. This deity is one who is depicted as having heavenly authority over the awesome and gruesome terrors that Sumerians imagined dwelt in the night desert and underworld. I should reiterate the of importance of his character as a being of heaven who is forced into the underworld to rule. It may be a reference to his nature as a god of trees, because the roots so resembled serpents. He was called upon int he battlefield because he was a master of war and magic.

The mušhuššu, mušmahhu and bašmu


bašmu or bashumu are horned snakes. mušhuššu ("terrifying serpent") are a special kind of horned dragon with a scorpion's tail and bird-claw hindfeet, leopard or lion forepaws. They are also called chaos monsters by some scribes. the mušmahhu literally means "grand serpent" it is a hydra and is described in text as having seven mouths. I have mentioned already that Ningishzidda shares association with the constellation hydra with Ereshkigal, queen of the underworld. All three of these magnificient creatures are associated with Ningishzidda through various archaeological documents. The snake and mušhuššu dragon were also associated with Ningishzidda's father, Ninazu, and it is here where Ningishzidda inherits the symbols. However snake worship was nothing new in this region. The deadly vipers that lived in the region were cultivated in artistic endeavors as guardians of the dead. There are several other gods related to snakes in the region, but Ningishzidda is unique in that he represents a kind of union of many earlier forms, such as the eagle claws, dragon horns and serpents as well as healing powers. We have a very good example of a mušhuššu on the gates of Babylon here, which is a much later time than both the Choga Mish symbol and the aforementioned libation vessel.

http://www.dazimua.com/images/mesopotamia/mus-hussu.jpg

When Ningishzidda is depicted in human form, he has a pair of horned dragons rising from his shoulders, and in some depictions such as the one I am about to show you, appear to speak. These are bašmu. Here is a fine example, partially broken, of Ningishzidda leading his protege Gudea to an unknown water god (likely Enki the water god or Ningirsu, nourisher of the fields.)

http://www.dazimua.com/images/mesopotamia/ningishzidda_leading_gudea.jpg

Finally, the mušmahhu, another chaos dragon, and a seven-headed animal of warfare, we have this primitive sketch:

http://www.dazimua.com/images/mesopotamia/earlydynasticplaque-mus-mah.jpg


A Balbale to Ningishzidda (part A) at The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.1#)

A Balbale to Ningishzidda (part B) at The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.4.19.2&display=Crit&charenc=gcirc#)


In text Ningishzidda is described clearly. He is a force of heaven, ferocious and impetuous, spreading confusion and delight amongst the people. A healer, a magician and a warrior, it's easy to see why he may have appealed to both the king of Lagash and modern day humans.

Curiously it is understood that Ningishzidda's word overcomes all powers that rule men, including personal gods.

He is called:


Lord with Holy Dignity

Falcon Preying on the Gods

Impetuous Leopard

murderous, howling mušḫuš

Dragon

Lofty-headed Prince

Serpent with a Great Tongue

Lion of the Distant Mountains

Wild bull with Tall Limbs

Honeyed Mouth of the Gods

Who Grew up in the Abzu (apsu - the ocean)

August Išib Priest Who Holds the Holy Ešda Vessels

Checker of Tablets, Who Secures Justice

Leader of the Assembly

King

Pure magician

Shepherd

Modern Times

In the present day, Ningishzidda has been experienced as an intercessor of divine origins, predicting an immediate and integral shift in human consciousness, leading to the elevation of earth as a region. Furthermore we see his connection to the formula of Abrahadabra, (N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418.) an ancient healing incantation brought to light and fame more recently by the Western ceremonialists. An important factor in this instance is the DNA strand, most frequently envisioned as a healing principal, the caduceus now shares this intimate link with the grand design through the discovery of the DNA strand's double helix formation. The pairing of the genetic code with the I Ching forms an even greater threshold for us to reach for when attempting to access Ningishzidda.


Ningishzidda is a deity of fertility, and sexual prowess, due to his nature as a serpent god. In Neo-Assyrian texts, ,when referring to the body parts of some god, the penis is described (mystically) as being a snake.

The human potential is great, and furthermore, with Abrahadabra's connection to the very stars themselves we have only just begun to witness the sprouting seed of human potential which branches out like the tree of life.

Thus ends this cursory jaunt into the realm of the good lord of the tree

http://www.dazimua.com/images/paintings/goldenmushussu.jpg

Ningishzidda - Abrahadabra

Enenuru.com Forums - Ningishzidda (http://enenuru.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=expel&action=display&thread=100&page=1)

Abrahadabra.com Forums - Ningishzidda, The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325)

[m1thr0s]

sweet. thanks naomi...good to have you back...:cool:

m1

[izi]

there's more I want to explorrre here but I gotta go to work now, i'll smell yah later

[dev]

Glad to have you back! There has been too much Osiris and not enough Isis here!
He is called: ...Modern Times...
That is an interesting name, when was he called that... do you know?

:cool:

[m1thr0s]

naomi...if you can recover that post where you emphasized the iconographic link between Ng & Abraxas, I'd love to have that posted here for the benefit of everyone.

It's one of those potent *aha* things we should all have on tap...

m1

[izi]

Several issues confront me with the Ningishzidda female outlook. While I have no quarrel per se with ng being female, bi or of mutable sex, nothing in the current archaeological records confirms this assumption. What is sustainable is a convincing association with Ereshkigal through the Sumerian constellation Hydra or "mush". Ereshkigal has a consort - he is the Akkadian war god Nergal (meslamta-ea, lord of meslam) a twin god form akin to Kain inasmuch as he is portrayed in some examples as killing his brother. Together they served as gatekeepers as well. Both comprise the authority of the Gemini constellation.

So at the level of singularity the flow between masculine and feminine is smooth with the Ereshkigal awarding Ng and placing him at the threshold of underworld (earth) and heaven, a relationship that stands in stark contrast to the later epics of Marduk who is violently opposed to the divine feminine at a visceral level - Marduk basically killed and gutted the mother of all creation, Tiamat, who sits under the name Namma in earlier language. So at least we can say Ng was female approved and by none other than the queen of the underworld herself, who, at the very least recognized his skills as a warrior who could protect Hell.

The assertion that ng is female is absurd, yet it belabors the importance of examining those ideas - however unlikely - that tend to reassert themselves with no visibly sustainable reason.

My theory is that Ningishzidda emanates himself definately masculine, but at a subatomic level he is all that becomes male or female and a great many other sexes in the process of procreating within numerous galaxies. Since he is more primeval than those gods we have created as images of our personalities, he is emanating from a place in void that encompasses more of the tao than we normally would have access to. The devout need for an authority on t he topic of genetic functionality demands both need and sacrifice. The whole idea of the devil being in the details is present here. Ningishzidda does not in fact take the world stage except at key points in the development of humanity.

More and more I would consider Ningishzidda ranging the gamut of life and that includes - dare we go there - aliens and vast differences between sexes we have not yet to comprehend. This brings me back to the basics though when I say that throughout human history, he has carried himself as male and this is an important fact we can't ignore if we are to be at all successful in carrying the proper image to contact Ng in us. The function of DNA is emanation, it is instructive, directive and procreative - a strong masculine force. Serpents are masculine, as are beards and most of the traits of Ningishzidda are masculine, not feminine.


I feel or see that the character and creature seems to flow with a broader range of flux than ordinary human beings are able to either access or assimilate perfectly. one of Ng's forms is the chaos monster (Mushushu) and he is a being who spreads confusion as one of his offensive abilities, knowing this we can properly ascertain his features only through carefully applied logick and knowledge synthesis. My best guess so far outside of concrete archaeological evidence is that Ningishzidda is the consummate prince of darkness. This i can tell from his relationship with the cthonic goddess ereshkigal and his own position - gatekeeper. Ereskigal in a way is the underworld. (almost always a queen is representative of her country's land in the flesh, since ancient times.) So it may be Ng is a child of tao unborn which would explain why it welcomed him so freely. (unborn like Ananta) Because he has a special relationship to the tetractys through Abrahadabra and his name formula, this makes him worth paying attention to even moreso if we value life itself.

Deviadah I am not like Isis at all and Osiris is dickless it just would never work out.

As for "Modern Times" I meant to bold it it's a pause in the text to allow the reader to form a transition to the next paragraph. But you knew that so i guess you meant we seem modern....I measure by millions, not thousands so I have to place importance on well researched documentation, be it a thousand years old or more. I would possibly be more alerted by discovering suddenly that dinosaurs did not, in fact, evolve into bird forms.

I'm inviting a Sumerologist here to double check my work so as to assure accuracy - I may be wrong on a couple of points here so we shall see if in case that is the truth or not.

[izi]

naomi...if you can recover that post where you emphasized the iconographic link between Ng & Abraxas, I'd love to have that posted here for the benefit of everyone.

It's one of those potent *aha* things we should all have on tap...

m1

No i did not keep it - I was not sure if you wanted that out...

(See Attachment)

Description: This ophidian god is a minor outlying deity named Istaran - either he or his messenger Nirah. There is also evidence to say he is a couple, that is, Istaran is the top and Nirah is the bottom (snake) part. The worship of the deity was active at the same time Ningishzidda's was, as a matter of fact, and was also hosted in a minor shrine in Lagash within a temple of a major god (either Ninazu or Ningirsu I am not exactly sure) this was done to pay tribute to a tribal deity of importance to one of the local peoples surrounding Lagash - more a diplomatic gesture than anything else I am sure. This is a common occurrence throughout human evolution - backtracking often yields grander finds for some unknown reason. It seems as though the harder we go looking for god the closer we just get to ourselves.

"Ištaran is the god of Der in the Elamite borderland. Although his three main traits are that of a dying god, an arbitrator and judge, and a chthonic snake god, he is also related with the sky: he is a Semitic Venus (Ištar-ān) and one of his names is An-gal/Anû rabû "Great An." He appears with an anthropomorphic torso but with the lower body of a winding snake, as in figs. 4b and 4d."

Taken from Enenuru (http://enenuru.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=expel&action=display&thread=100&page=2) (See post #53 under Ningishzidda)

The image is taken from Transtigridian Snake Gods by F.A. Wiggerman, it is originally taken from H. Pittman, Ancient Art in Miniature (1987), 23 Fig. 11; Akkadian cylinder seal.

If there was a feminine Ng, Istaran could possibly be it. And modern. Think starbucks.

[m1thr0s]

I think I may have the original post on the hard drive I had to send back to seagate...aaarrrggghhh...hopefully it will be returned with data intact...

I also have exactly no sense of Ningishzidda as a feminine form, twin serpents notwithstanding. I appreciate your detailed research into this question Naomi. It brings a lot of peripheral issues to light as you have indicated...not the least of which being the tendency of ancient semitic cultures to exalt the masculine and demonize the feminine on the waning side of the cultural time-lines involved. We see this pattern in India as well and also other places. Curiously, this was not always the case at earlier points in time, but seems to be a pattern associated to later epochs. The whole thing smacks of a knee-jerk propaganda aimed at vilifying through feminizing whatever targets might have been disturbing the *dogs-of-war* at the time...

your meta-sexual theory is also very intriguing...very star-like actually...

m1

[izi]

I think we also mentioned the earliest known appearance of Abraxas was under Quentin Severus Sammonicus in what year?

For comparison the Akkadian seal (post #23) is from the latter half of the third millenium, B.C. So quite old.

Abraxas:

[AfterViewer]

Very informative post, Naomi. Lovely Shri Yantra Avatara. AV.

[izi]

Kali, actually.

It's important to note that Istaran and Nirah were minor deities honored by tribespeople in the outlying areas surrounding the city of Lagash. They were assimilated into the larger population and thus the modern form of Abraxas may have come about through this admixture of the symbology and the larger ophidian cults. Somehow this being survived into the present age as Abraxas and we find this kind of infinity loop that I will lay out here for retrospect for those in the audience somehow not grasping this significance

N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418

ABRAHADABRA=418

ABRAXAS=ABRAHADABRA

Istaran/Nirah Symbol = Abraxas Symbol

Istaran/Nirah = Minor deity closely associated with Ningishzidda at the same time and place as the production of the Gudea cup

Something freaky is happening here!

Also I wanted to point out that Ningishzidda is called "grand physician" and "healer" - the earliest recording of Abrahadabra known is associated with a physican, the aforementioned Quintus Severus Sammonicus....

:P

[dev]

Also I wanted to point out that Ningishzidda is called "grand physician" and "healer" - the earliest recording of Abrahadabra known is associated with a physican, the aforementioned Quintus Severus Sammonicus....It is perhaps not strange then that the collective image of the serpent and the pharmacies have developed in the way it has (with Ascleipus along the way). Ng is really going back to the roots of things...

This Abraxas stuff is really interesting!

http://www.alchemylab.com/Abraxas_a_Gnostic_Pantheon.jpg

:cool:

[izi]

Yes that's an important thing to notice. i have said before that creations must follow the laws of *Tien Tsun the first cause or Brahman, to survive in a perfect form, and the same is true for expanded seed principles, you can come to know the seed by the development. As much as medicine is a field of healing it also has a mastery over death. Since Ningishzidda is both a cthonic god and a prince of heaven the current is Satanic, the core values of Satanic definition are indicated by Lucifer and his presence in Hell even though he is actually a fallen angel (the most beautiful of that mythos's creations). How this all plays out in real life is actually as a form of redemption. As the I Ching states, nothing can remain at its lowest point forever and soon must rise to its peak, so for sure, we are just beginning to see the effects of Ningishzidda's arousal after centuries of dismissal. The same principle is applied in tantra, whereas we find redemption ion the sacraments of eating flesh and opposing evils to sustain virtue....anything taken to an extreme must find an exit point in the opposite direction and redirecting that properly is part of the art of tantra (weaving)

It's a lot like bungee cording....I often think of that image when I am endeavoring on a tantric weave....

I think it would be most prudent to say Ningishzidda is a god of tantra, as it is primarily a healing profession and a bit glamorous at that....but who in here has never heard of sexual healing anyways. (though i know tantra is not about sex primarily, I'm just saying most people think so.)

*P'an Ku, the primordial Chinese god born from the cosmic egg. He fashioned chaos and made heaven and earth, aided by the four animals born with him, unicorn, dragon, tortoise and phoenix. They toiled for 18,000 years. After this he died and his body became the air, soil and trees and so on. Then after floating in space for another 18,000 years he was reborn as Tien-Tsun, the first cause.

[AfterViewer]

Hey Naomi, Kali(correction noted)Avatar. Not Shivatran, but the Goddess. Thanx for the vid on my Profile visitor site, interesting reactivation. AV.

[izi]

:viper:You're welcome. :) Thanks for the comments. (I went to great lengths to find that HQ video!!!) XD

[us4-he2-gal2]

Hey Naomi - hey all


Typing up quite a storm here I see 0_0 well as I'm committed to looking it over will have to ponder some of the wide range and diverse interpretation and get back to you shortly. I really like the new summation of the deity so far

[us4-he2-gal2]

Sorry about the delay.



Hard to decide where to start - Naomi typed the longest piece of commentary on Feb. 4th, "Several issues confront me with the Ningishzidda female outlook..." , but she was replying to opinions expressed even earlier. So first I'd look at the question of the sex of Ningishzida.


About this question I should mention I am not literally a Sumerologist as may have been inferred earlier, but perhaps an unusual enthusiast. I have on occasion been able to interest some Sumerologists in discussions and Naomi has always foisted the subject of Ningishzida at the board so a few things have been pondered over. A possible reason for confusion over the sex of this deity may relate to the name itself, as "Nin" can be translated "lady" and can be used in female names such as Ninlil or Ninmah. In fact, the cuneiform sign for Nin is basically a depiction of the female genitals. However, it must be recognized that male deities ALSO took names which started with NIN, as in Ningishzida, Ninazu and Ninurta. As for the precise reason why a male deity may have this sort of name, expects I've asked have stated "we don't know" as well as "And finally, I have no idea why it is that so many male deities begin NIN-." In this field of study, sometimes the answers simply aren't there on certain points, and at that time we would turn to other evidence: In what few depictions there are of this deity, he is depicted with a beard. And in terms of textual evidence, line 35 of a Balbale to Ningishzida, reads "(d)nin-ĝiš-zid-da dumu (d)nin-a-zu," so he is the dumu (son) of Ninazu, not the dumu-munus (daughter).


http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.4.19.1
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.1

I think Naomi pointed out the beard already so I guess the deities obvious masculinity isn't really what needs to be demonstrated at this point. As for seeking some sort of Female legitimation for Ningishzida's sometime role as chairbearer of the Netherworld, like everything else Mesopotamian this is tricky. It must be noted here that Ningishzida was originally a Sumerian deity, but with the passing of the the 3rd millennium, Sumerian culture died out and along with Ningishzida's traditional cult center's, which had been destroyed. According to D. Katz, it was in the Old Babylonian period (1950-1650 BC) that Ningishzida was assigned this chairbearing role - it was when he was integrated into the Babylonian pantheon (while retaining his Sumerian name.) This role is most often attested to in Old Babylonian incantations which mention Ningishzida, however another source of information on this is the myth called "Ninĝišzida's journey to the nether world":

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.7.3


I reviewed T. Jacobsen's article devoted to this myth; The myth dealt with here, Ninĝišzida's journey to the nether world. The basic plot reads as the capturing of Ningišzida by demonic forces of the Netherworld, who drag him off to the Netherworld - in effect meaning his death. He is lamented and pursued by his loyal sister but to no avail, however, when he arrives there "he is unexpectedly freed and attended to as a member of the corps of "throne-bearers" of the Nether World." The relevant section where he is declared Throne bearer is largely broken unfortunately, but one line reads "As for you (addressing the demon) , you may be a great demon ……, …… your hand against the nether world's office of throne-bearer." (implying Ningishzida.)

As for why he is assigned this role at that juncture in this myth, Jacobsen comments "Why the mythopoeic imagination should have given him this particular office is not apparent." However this function of throne-bearing may be more broadly interpreted - while originally the throne bearer was carrier of the the chair of the ruler, "its seems probably...that the hefty throne-bearer will have served also as bodyguard, for with time the office came to imply police powers, guarding evildoers. This was Ningišzida's function in the Nether World." It should be added, his function in the Old Babylonian period and after. So as for the question of Ningishzida being assigned this role under Ereshkigal's leadership - yes. I'm not sure this should be effeminating in any way however. :)

more reviewing shortly..

[us4-he2-gal2]

Unfortunately "shortly" equals at least a week in my life :( Okay a few more notes then. One thing I should mention I guess is a point where we are comparing Tiamat to Namma -


>>Marduk basically killed and gutted the mother of all creation, Tiamat, who sits under the name Namma in earlier language.<<


This is one we wrestled with at enenuru for some time, that is the question of what relation does Tiamat have with Namma.. its really quite close but there is a distinction we can draw when getting down to details. Below, I have pasted some of what Madness posted on the matter:



"Tiamat, the absolute state of tâmtu, means "sea."

Kramer in his Sumerian Mythology happens to equate Namma with the sea (p. 39): In a tablet which gives a list of the Sumerian gods, the goddess Nammu, written with the ideogram for "sea," is described as "the mother, who gave birth to heaven and earth." Heaven and earth were therefore conceived by the Sumerians as the created products of the primeval sea.

Jacobsen in his 'Sumerian Mythology: A Review Article' in Toward the Image of Tammuz [originally published in JNES 5] rejects this (p. 116): Returning to Dr. Kramer's treatment of the speculations centering in the goddess Nammu, it must be pointed out that the sign with which her name is written does not - as Dr. Kramer avers - mean "sea." "Sea" is a-abba(k) in Sumerian; the sign with which Nammu's name is written denotes - if read engur - primarily the body of sweet water which the Mesopotamians believed lay below the earth, feeding rivers and wells but best observable in the watery deep of the marshes. Nammu is therefore the "watery deep" of the Mesopotamian marshes extending below the surface of the earth as the water-bearing strata. She is not the sea.


Apart from both goddesses being the the primordial mothers, and both being closely associated with the Apsu, the fact that they represent different bodies of water might be a deal breaker."

So to sum, some experts have mistakenly interpreted Namma as "sea" , this would equate her with Tiamat - in fact, Namma should be understood as standing for the fresh waters, such as the underground water table. This means she is closer theologically to Tiamats husband, Apsu (himself standing for those same fresh waters in the later Babylonian literature.)


______________________________________________





As for a mention of Ningishzida as a prince of darkness type figure, this is a term that doesnt offer us much definition maybe, even if we keep it in the Christian context. It may at best give us a general orientation or sense of character in this case, so we may go farther looking at the the position of throne bearer itself. In Sumerian or Mesopotamian theology past a certain century, new divine epithets came more and more to mirror equivolents in the terrestrial realm (on earth.) You may interpret this as reflective of the fact certain officies were ascribed a divine origin (for example Kingship is said in the Sumerian King List document to have "descended from Heaven") or you may not. In any case, to gain insight on what sort of responcibilities Ningishzida had as throne bearer of the Netherworld, we may profit from researching the equivolent role in the Terrestrial realm, as one reflects the other.

I know the term for this office in Sumerian is nam-gu-za-la2 (or without the "nam", which means office roughly). We see that Šul-pa-e is called the Throne bearer of An and Enlil, so he is like the throne bearer of Heaven, in line 43 of the following myth:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.31.1

In that line he is called "the throne-bearer of An and Enlil, the fierce constable of the gods." Remember, that above I noted Jacobsen's observation that with time the function of Throne bearer in the terrestrial realm, the mortal throne bearers of Mesopotamia came to serve as bodyguards (like constables) - Jacobsen had said:

"the hefty throne-bearer will have served also as bodyguard, for with time the office came to imply police powers, guarding evildoers. This was Ningišzida's function in the Nether World."

If this aspect of the role that is observable in the historical office, policing evil doers, holds in the context of the Netherworld, we would expect this to mean that Ningishzida was in part responcible for controlling and moderating the evil doers of that realm: demons and restless ghosts who would come to haunt and inflict with sickness the living in the terrestrial world. This makes sense with the information we noted above that Ningishzida as throne bearer was a function mentioned most often in Old Babylonian incantation tests. The exorcists generally addressed deities that may be appealed to and adjured to help with the problem of containing or expelling agents of illness (demons or ghosts) from the afflicted patients.

Perhaps some more information about the Mortal functionary could be found somewhere.. There is little in the myths to tell us about the equivolent beyond this. Just for kicks, here is the cuneiform for nam-gu-za-la2

http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/img/popup/Oema.png

[izi]

Thanks for bringing up the Namma issue Us-he2-gal2 I had noticed that but wasn't sure what the deal was with it even though I did read the whole thread there.

It's very interesting to me the name Namma stands for fresh water - you know I have a thing for Ammit and one of her names is Am-heh - passable - she's got a crocodile face and a lioness's body - the butt of a hippo. :P

Crocodilians are fresh water denizens primarily...

I wish I had ten brains and twelve bodies

(the brainless ones could just sleep and snog)

[ningishzidda74]

"But Ningishzidda, or Ng was the wife and mother of Dumuzi,"

I don't really know where you took this from but it is ABSOLUTELY FALSE... Ningishzidda was a younger SON of Enki who had it with Ereshkigal, Enlil's granddaughter...
as of it, Ningishzidda was one of the 'reuniting deities' between the enlilite and the enkite deities...

[AfterViewer]

:)Um, this should be interesting!

[ningishzidda74]

Ok ok i have read all the FAQ post and it contains some errors... i answered only to the first point because it was so absurd but i didn't read all the other points...
here are some fixes for the errors:

1) "Ningishzidda, or Ng was the wife and mother of Dumuzi, and an ancestor of Gilgamesh."
Not true: Ningishzidda was the son of Enki and Ereshkigal, and was MALE.

2) "Ng is a polarity"
Why this 'polarity view'? Sumerian religion was not dualistic nor spiritual. The serpents were the symbol of all the mayor Enkite gods... Enki, Marduk (along with the aries), Ningishzidda just as the Bull was the symbol of the major Enlilite Gods... Enlil, Ninurta, Ishkur etc...

3) "let me simply state that if Ng is an ancient form of Isis"
don't state this.... Ningishzidda was the model for Thot, non Isis. Just like marduk was Ra, and Enki was Ptah... Ningishzidda's wife Nidaba (ninazimua) was the egyptian goddess of writing Seeshat

4) Ningishzidda and alchemy...
Ningishzidda as Thot was evolved in the greek Hermes, whose symbol the Caduceus was the union of the entwined serpents of Ningishzidda and the anunna's winged disk...

see this:

http://virtual-hd.gets.no-ip.com:280/uploads/caduc2.jpg

Both hermes and thot were the 'magicians' among the gods, and Ningishzidda was the 'lord of the artifact of life'... he had good knowledge of medical practice, geometry, buldings and temples projecting, etc...

It must be noticed that for the sumerians Ningishzidda had no 'ruling planet' but in the personification of Hermes he was identified with the planet Mercury, that is the planet of transformation and mutations (along with neptune).

According the occultist and hermetic Benjamin Rowe It was the mercurian influence in earlier exoterism that priduced the 'solve et coagula' motto of alchemy.

5) "Ng was given the task of producing an animal smart enough to serve as a suitable workforce, and humankind was the result...part animal, part god in essence"

Not that much true: it was Ningishzidda's father Enki who created the Lulus (Adapa & Titi), using the blood and sperm of Geshtu-e (galzu) and the ovuli of a female inhabitant of the Absu... then Ningishzidda 'clonated' the 2 Lulus and produced 14 Hybrids (7 males and 7 females)

[ningishzidda74]

According to some experts in this field of study the upcoming Aeon is assigned to Ningishzidda. ..

m1thr0s

I agree with this... eventhough there is one thing to consider...
In the earlier myths of Egipt Ra was exiled and had to quit the throne of Egypt, thus to be adorated as 'amen-Ra' (Ra the hidden). His powers and roles were attributed to Thot, his brother, because Ptah observed that the stars were giving the sign of Thot. And Thot was the egyptian Ningishzidda...

When Ra returned he dethroned Thot and got back powers and roles... there is a myth called 'the attributions of powers of Thot' that describes this...

The new precessional Era would be that of Aquarius which is the 'mirror' of Enki... but obviously the 'aquarius' could not stand for Enki himself but for an Enkite god, thus Ningishzidda (I don't consider marduk because his Era was the Aries starting about 2000 a.C)

[ningishzidda74]

Ningishzidda is a deity of fertility, and sexual prowess, due to his nature as a serpent god. In Neo-Assyrian texts, ,when referring to the body parts of some god, the penis is described (mystically) as being a snake.




That is one thing very few scholars note.... i think this girl has a good clue about NGZ... i would only like to add thet the sumerian term GISH means both 'artifact' and 'Penis'
e.g. GISH DUG = to copulate (litterally: practice with penis)

[dev]

Not true: Ningishzidda was the son of Enki and Ereshkigal, and was MALE.
Although I personally am not satisfied with the fact that Ng is 100% male, I am in full agreement that Ng was the son of Enki and Ereshkigal and not what is written in the initial post (I might correct that error a.s.a.p.)!

There is a lot of Male vs. Female discussion in this thread after the initial post!


Why this 'polarity view'? Sumerian religion was not dualistic nor spiritual. The serpents were the symbol of all the mayor Enkite gods... Enki, Marduk (along with the aries), Ningishzidda just as the Bull was the symbol of the major Enlilite Gods... Enlil, Ninurta, Ishkur etc...

Well as it is quoted by m1 in the initial post of this thread:


Duality suggests a division in things whereas Polarity is hyphenating an organic Unity... ...The Chinese would argue most adamantly that Yin & Yang are not a Duality but rather a Polarity extant in all living things.



http://virtual-hd.gets.no-ip.com:280/uploads/caduc2.jpg
Yup... that is my belief too!

Great to update this stuff... a lot of water has passed under the bridge since this thread was created. I beg you to go over this thread:

Ningishzidda: The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325)

And this article: Ningishzidda Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm)

Welcome to the forums btw!

:cool:

[dev]

"let me simply state that if Ng is an ancient form of Isis"
don't state this....

The key word in the sentence you quote is IF... theory is something you got to accept in these forums!

:laugh:

[AfterViewer]

:)Great thread!

[ningishzidda74]

Great to update this stuff... a lot of water has passed under the bridge since this thread was created. I beg you to go over this thread:

Ningishzidda: The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325)

And this article: Ningishzidda Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm)

Welcome to the forums btw!

:cool:

JUST DID IT LOL!!
Go read ;) and thanx for the welcome (I loved Ningiszida rising when i first read it...)

@ Afterviewer: i have alot of material about Ningishzidda because it is my main field of study (i began 6 years ago with Sitchin's theories and then explored the orthodox theory and material). Sadly, all my material is in Italian, my native language... in may website i have alot of work about the identification of Ningishzidda with Thot - Hermes - questzalcoatl.

Some day i may translate it in english...

[MythMath]

...Sadly, all my material is in Italian, my native language... in may website i have alot of work about the identification of Ningishzidda with Thot - Hermes - questzalcoatl.

Some day i may translate it in english...

No better time or place than now and here... ;)

And again, welcome Ning74... :yes:

[us4-he2-gal2]

Ningishzzida74:


I would be interested in giving you some idea's for alternative methodology when it comes to exploring your considerable interest in Sumerian myth and religion. I certainly think you do a good job in confronting some problematic idea's on this thread - at the same time I don't know that you are recognizing some of the contributions that are unusual in their research value .. I'm not referring to my own posts above specifically, but if you refer again to the Naomi's post at the below url:


http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=2218&page=2

and to post number 17, this is an example of a women who not only has "has a good clue about NGZ" , but also one who has gone to the best sources she could find and who has really applied herself; She has come away with some very nice perspective to share. In my opinion this thread should have ended with that post - done, all that needs to be said.

Coming back to the question of sources, I believe you have a mastery of your particular source, which could only be one of the particularly ambitious alternative history ecclectics - perhaps a Laurence Gardner? Well, in any case, I certainly encourage you to get your hands on the raw academic Sumerological material - this is not impossible for the layman, and I believe it's only in your ability to cross-reference this material that you can assert your author's ideas, or that you can know when they are erronous for that matter. There are many Sumerological web-tools which are wide open to public use (no - they AREN'T being secreted away) and which might help test your authors claims. For example you can visit:

http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html


The is the Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary project. It's electronic form is newer, but the project has been underway for decades and has been an attempt to create an essential tool for those few working with Sumerian language. If you go to the above url and type "penis" into the search bar (yes you can type it too Naomi), you will get the entry for ĝeš (javascript:showarticle('e2050.html')) - this is another writing for ĝiš3 (javascript:popepsd('%C5%8Be%C5%A1[penis]','Q000047.894.1')) [/URL] - regularized as GISH in some cases. So, we can see by this entry that the interpretation "artifact" , for example, would be erronous.

[URL="javascript:showarticle('e2050.html')"]ĝeš [PENIS] (javascript:showarticle('e2050.html')) (47x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝeš3; mu "penis; male" Akk. išaru; zikaru

Gotta run for now. cheers

[ningishzidda74]

Yes i do agree to the idea of going back to all sources expecially those 'orthodox', and that's what i did after studying "sitchin's" sumeric...
sadly what orthodox commonly call 'sumeric' is indeed assyrian... that is, a sumeric with a series of modification occurring in the 1300 years that have passed since the birth of written sumeric (3300 b.C.) and Lagash period (2000 b.C. circa)...

basically i used as sources the E-csl online tool and archive, 2 books written by Kramer, 1 from Gardner, and a bunch of translitterations and translation by King and Cunningham...

Expecialli ethe 'Sumerian Lexicon' from which i take the meaning of Gish:

1) giš, geš: n., tree; wood; wooden implement; scepter; tool; organ; plow; natural phenomenon
(describes a trunk that goes out into many branches and leaves) [GIŠ archaic frequency: 381].
adj., describes an animal assigned to the plow (sometimes ñiš-šè).

2) giš2,3, geš2,3, uš: penis; man (self + to go out + many; cf., nitaþ(2) and šir) [GIŠ3 archaic frequency:
16; concatenation of 2 sign variants; UŠ archaic frequency: 101; concatenates 2 sign variants] .

the first series of meanings is the one that is extended to 'artifact', it is deriving from 'wooden implement' and 'tool - sceptre' that are handmade, so 'artifact'.

Hey nice suggestion I didn't know the Pennsylvania Dictionary i'm taking a look at it as soon as i go home...
thanx alot :thumbsup:

p.s. if anyone wants to take a look at the sumerian lexicon gere is the link:

http://virtual-hd.gets.no-ip.com:280/uploads/sumerian%20lexicon.pdf

and this is a small (28 pages) dictionary with the basics of sumerian :

http://virtual-hd.gets.no-ip.com:280/uploads/Sumerian_Dictionary.pdf

[ningishzidda74]

hey by the way.... is naomi still an active member? in some pages i saw: account closed, but in the page you posted it doesn't seem so....
i think she is a very talented girl, and considered her age it is much more impressive.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Ningishzidda74:


Ah, I see you have certainly made some good ventures into the strange territory of professional Assyriology and Sumerology - let me respond point by point to your answer:


"Yes i do agree to the idea of going back to all sources expecially those 'orthodox', and that's what i did after studying "sitchin's" sumeric..."

I should point out that orthodox is probably a word that will be misleading here, when it comes to Sumerology versus alternative history - what the two types of researcher do is quite different. too different for the former to be called orthodox in comparison. This is like calling NASA photos of the moon orthodox in comparison to an artists conceptual lunar piece. They just aren't the same thing.


"sadly what orthodox commonly call 'sumeric' is indeed assyrian... that is, a sumeric with a series of modification occurring in the 1300 years that have passed since the birth of written sumeric (3300 b.C.) and Lagash period (2000 b.C. circa)..."

I think your term "sumeric" must be from the Italian :) Well, I think I know what your getting at with this. If you go to a site like ETCSL which houses the vast majority of available Sumerian literature, you may note that the myths and poems etc. are read from tablets that date to the OLD BABYLONIAN period (approx. 1900 BC or later). Yes most Sumerian literature comes to us from a point *after* the Sumerians themselves were a dead people. Writing did indeed start in Uruk around 3200 BC, but complex literature such as myths didnt develop until 2600 BC, and we dont see a great flourishing of literature until almost the end of the Sumerian period - caled l the Ur III period in 2150 BC. Sumerologists are able to read this literature first from around 2600 BC and then 2150 BC, and they can tell from the *actual* Sumerian literature (as broken as most of it is) that the Babylonians, who are responsible for making most of the tablets that survived, *continued* the intellectual tradition of the Sumerians, copying their texts *word for word* or making adaptions, usually slight. To put it simply, yes it is possible to get a reasonable, if not perfect, accounting of Sumerian culture, often is must be indirectly.

"basically i used as sources the E-csl online tool and archive, 2 books written by Kramer, 1 from Gardner, and a bunch of translitterations and translation by King and Cunningham..."


Ah - that is good! ETCSL is a must, its simply the best there is or ever will be for accessing Sumerian (Old Baylonian) literature. Kramer is a standby, the man who really brought Sumerlogy to the public. King is a bit outdated though good - and is that Graham Cunningham? A great scholar who put alot of work into ETCSL. Gardner is the exception here in my opinion, yet I think you've taken alot from him 0_0 Hey makes it too easy and its not!



As for: "Expecialli ethe 'Sumerian Lexicon' from which i take the meaning of Gish:"


I see how you`ve come to that - first of all I am assuming you mean John Halloran's lexicon? I believe John is an amazing mind in that he mastered alot of Sumerian outside of the University. However, while this is inspiring, I`ve spoken to a few academics who find his interpretations of archaic words unsustainable. As far as your associating the two GISH in question here, I can mention something important here - well..

Notice the first entry, the one relating to wood, is written just "giš" while the second entry is written "giš2" ? This is a Sumerological convention - the 2 really makes a difference! Here is why - When experts are examining cuneiform writing, they notice that sometimes the SAME SIGN is used, but different meanings are meant! Think about our "A" sign - it may make a long A or a short A (in English). In cuneiform, the same sign may suggest many different sounds and meanings. The word for tree and the word for penis can use the same sign - you can see this by going back to

http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html

Type in penis - and then type in tree and scroll down to the enty ges[/URL](Tree) - you can see both entries contain the sign:

[url]http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/img/popup/Ogis.png (javascript:showarticle('e2052.html'))


So again, in cuneiform, the same sign sometimes convery two entirely different ideas (called "polyphony"). It doesnt mean that the ancients necessarily though the type to be related concepts, its a limitation of the cuneiform script - they had to keep reusing the same signs or the whole system would have got even more monstrous! In any case scholars mark items with the same sound with numerals ges as one concept, ges2 something completely different.


Lastly, I believe Naomi is still an active member she just hasn`t posted in the last week which surprises me anyway :)

[ningishzidda74]

Yes it is Graham Cunningham i love his material from which i started my serious study of comparing Sitchin's sumerian translation with orthodoxy...
I didn't use much of Garner's material... i only have 1 book which shows some interpretation of myths translated by King and Kramer... an alternative interpretation if we may say so, but little thing.

I don't understand what you mean by the part about orthodox and non-orthodox... (i know it may be my fault cause, as i wrote before, i don't practice english since long and i sometimes have a hard time with complex sentences - i apologize).
if we take Kramer on one side, (or jacobsen or king etc) and we take Sitchin on the other side, they DO look at the same signs and terms but give different interpretation. IN this case i would consider Kramer, or Jacobsen or the other 'official scholars' as 'orthodox' and Sitchin as a 'non orthodox' because many of his interpretations or meaning assigned to the cuneiform signs are not welcomed in the official community.

That is why many many scholars talk about sitchin's translations as 'junk' (one thing that i always hated, expecially for the stupid reason they give).

Yes, i do know about the meaning of 1 and 2 in the sumerian convention, but still gish1 and gish2 have the same sign with different meaning. And when a name is written with that particular sign, you can associate the many meanings for that particular sign in translating the entire word.
That is why, for example, gish dug can mean 'to copulate' or also 'to make great' and ningishzidda sometimes is a deity of fertility (if we use the translation as 'penis' and 'wood') but sometimes is a 'prince lord' (when the translation as 'sceptre' is used) or, as i commonly translate it, 'lord of the artifact of life.

(I once read some scholars - like Pettinato - prefer to call him the 'prince of the tree of life', accordingly to the fact that the 'snake' is almost often associated to a tree in sumerian icons and seal - but i rather notice that often we have a SINGLE serpent with a tree, not the entwined serpent of ningishzidda).

[us4-he2-gal2]

Ningishzida74:


Well, the more you refer to your use of the "orthodox" side, the more impressed I become. I think as much as Sitchin, and others like him, like to portray themselves as truth sayers, and persons fighting the good fight... The truth I think is it is far more uncommon, and far more novel, to see someone really using the orthodox material as it was meant to be used. Far more common is someone who has been taken in with the popular alternative history stuff - for all intents and purposes, Sitchin and his sort are the POPULAR ORTHODOX. The one most non-academics have ever heard of or care about.

Sumerologists and Assyriologists are among the least understood and least appreciated thinkers on earth - even when someone is bashing Sitchin, this is usually because they think the idea of Aliens is ridiculous - not because they care, or understand anything about the field of Assyriology! What Assyiologist could ever claim to sell as many books as Sitchin? Whose work do you find in just about EVERY bookstore? For all intents and purposes, Sitchin and authors like him are POPULARISTS, while trained scholars who have spent their lives quietly working away in near poverty, and in complete obscurity, who have no sway over the public and little funding from any government, are *somehow* supposed to be opposeing and oppressing these quasi-scholars?


Genuine scholars call Sitchin's work junk, because a layman like or me can educate themselves independely to the point of being able to pick Stichins idea's to pieces with an afternoon or two. I can do it and I don't have a degree, and I'm sure you could do the same thing with that willingness to use ETCSL and a few "orthodox" works.

[ningishzidda74]

Ningishzida74:



Genuine scholars call Sitchin's work junk, because a layman like or me can educate themselves independely to the point of being able to pick Stichins idea's to pieces with an afternoon or two. I can do it and I don't have a degree, and I'm sure you could do the same thing with that willingness to use ETCSL and a few "orthodox" works.

But to this day no one was able to :)
i' ve heard and read so many critics to his translations (mostly about his use of the terms 'shem' and 'me'), but no one definitive and convincing.

Anyway, going back to the original topic about ningishzidda, it would be nice to make a short 'ningishzidda handbook'.. it may help if made with both written and graphic material.