The Meatrix...

[m1thr0s]

I have a certain fascination with veganism, though I admit that I am not vegan myself, nor even vegetarian. I have always felt that meat consumption was basically ok so long as you can do it with a certain amount of moderation...or at least consciousness of the fact that something had to die to provide you with that particular meal. Unfortunately, moderation is harder to mediate than abstinence for most people, so I can understand where people finally get to the point where they feel like the only real solution is just to give up meat entirely. And the health benefits are irrefutable. The real problem I think is that there have typically been very few satisfying meatless food choices available to people. This is beginning to change however. I had a huge plate of nachos the other nite completely made from non-animal products and it was great. Artificial meats have been around since early Imperial China and the techniques are getting better all the time...

Pythagoras was a strict vegetarian and was of the opinion that meat rendered the body too heavy and clogged up with gunk to promote for a clear mind. Before the term vegetarianism or veganism were invented, people with this sort of dietary predisposition were called Pythagoreans etc. So I find myself thinking about it and have been eating less meat at least and I think I already can detect improvements in my health and overall energy levels. So I am interested in this...not converted necessarily but very intrigued with the whole movement.

Here's a couple of flash presentations I think you will all enjoy if you haven't already seen them:

The Meatrix I (http://www.themeatrix.com/)

The Meatrix II (http://www.themeatrix2.com/)

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Lol...awesome presentations m1thr0s, thanks for sharing!

I have been all the more naturally tending towards vegetarianism during the past years. It seems like I am being intuitively drawn towards it, as I never had any particular reservations concerning meat consumption, providing it is done under certain moderation. However I all the more feel naturally moved to decrease the amount of meat I consume within a year, having not too long ago realized that I almost eat no meat at all at the moment! My main problem was that I felt negatively affected by it concerning subtle energy currents and energy levels, not able to keep up to my expectations. I was not aware of Pythagoras being of that view, but it makes perfect sense really...even though I have never followed vegetarianism directly until now (consciously pursuing it and officially stopping to eat meat), I find that vegan food has brought my energy levels (and accompanied subtlety of perception) to new heights, and am really amazed by the results.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

You know, there is something we might call a *hate industry* going on in this world Kain and it's been with us for a long time. Right now the meat/animal products industry has to qualify as one of it principle faces. There's just no getting around it once you begin looking at it so I think that most people really just don't want to look...already fearing what they will necessarily see. I don't know that being vegan/vegetarian is going to solve that problem all by itself but it does strike a blow where it hurts these sob's I think and doesn't have to be restricted to abstinence alone. Most of the people I know who are on this wagon are very motivated people who are using the extra energy they derive from their healthy habits to do productive things... Compare this to 400 pound *pagans* who can barely make their way across the street and chalk it all up to goddess worship and I think you'll begin to note a bizarre discrepancy going on here.

And I like pagans...but hey look...Pan wasn't fat and the goddess in question is pregnant for cripe's sake. There's just a lot of people pushing off gluttony as a virtue...even a spiritual calling. Somehow or other, it sure isn't calling to me.

I think we are talking about a whole lifestyle here...and a way of causing change to happen starting from yourself and working logically out from there. Like I said, I am not ready to give up meat 100% yet but there's just a lot going on there that I really do have to respect.

m1thr0s

[Amur]

Meat does have some advantages over vegetarian dishes. It's more compact, faster and easier to make when compared to many veg dishes. Think this is more psychological than actually tied to meat itself, but my stomach works instantly much better when I eat a little meat. Not sure what routine there is messing the digestion up with vegetarian food.

I do enjoy more eating vegetarian food as I enjoy the more altering and rich tastes which they provide. They do certainly taste alot more fresh, as they are more or less alive when cooking. Meat is quite dead in a sense. Haven't yet had the chance to bite the head off living bunnie, or a bat like our friend Ozzy.

Now when eating mostly vegetarian food, I do enjoy the heaviness that eating meat food brings. I especially enjoy the lazy cat-like lying down thing after a good piece of meat. After eating a long time, very 'pure' vegetarian food, I became very airie fairie and felt literally almost all etheric. Even people around me started to react to this as they felt that something wasn't quite right with me, but they couldn't say what it was. I felt very light and nonexisting in relation to the surrounding reality. So I noticed that I had to eat meat to bring me back. Though I tracked the whole thing as far as to notice that because of my own severe traumatization and areas of 'dead feeling parts', I like meat because it gives a resonance with those dead parts. But again it's a matter of viewpoint. Eating too much meat again makes me grow heavy and dull. Generally I think meat is quite tasteless in relation to various vegetables and other 'living' food. Raw meat might be a bit better, atleast the bunny was a bit better but, still it didn't provide the rich stimulation vegetables do.

I don't generally like the meat they produce in the stressful enviroments nowadays. It just doesn't feel right. It's as bad as drinking this clogged pipe water. They are messing up our planet and even the air I breathe. ugh. Generally I try to eat organically farmed food, as it gives a sure way to natural food. It's a bit more expensive, but in my opinion it's well worth it, and every product I've tasted, tastes alot better than it's corresponding non-organic. Back to meat, read an article about pigs in europe and how they live in such stressful enviroments that they have to give sedatives to the pigs to get their meat to taste 'normal' lol. Wonder when I can do the same to humans. :D Generally I don't think tigers would like to live in the antarctic even if they had goretex clothing.

Vegetarian food might become more home-grown in the future when somekind of free-energy device is invented. Current led lights provide up to 70% light and only 30% heat, which should give quite good growing conditions. Bring on the hemp...

[m1thr0s]

...but my stomach works instantly much better when I eat a little meat.that's because meat is extremely addicting and also because of chemistry in general. Our bodies become acclimated to whatever we eat and if you get used to eating garbage, you won't feel satisfied until you've had a bite of garbage. It doesn't matter that it may be causing tumors and cancers and completely destroying your immune system etc...the body tends to want what it's already used to getting. But it doesn't take very long to rewire all of that. You need to give it long enough to get meat mostly out of your system though and the stats on that are creepy. A hamburger you eat today will still be somewhere in your body several months later and even years at a molecular level...

In point of fact, there are no significant nutritional advantages to eating meat that cannot be easily accomodated with a non-meat diet. There are certain vitamins etc we get in meat...notably b-12 I think, which can easily be supplemented by eating a little bee pollen every now and then, which tastes great and is not known to have any negative repercussions, with the exception of small children I think who should not eat honey in general. A very few people are allergic to it in which case there are still other supplemental options.

Maybe somebody who knows more about this stuff than me will join in at some point...the stats on veganism are surprizing. Nearly every reason we have for thinking we need meat turns out to be wrong...just a bunch of "baloney" we have been fed from birth...

Meat tastes good though...at least to me. That's the hardest part I think. I'd have a hell of a time giving up Sushi or Teriyaki Chicken...lol...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

Maybe somebody who knows more about this stuff than me will join in at some point...the stats on veganism are surprizing. Nearly every reason we have for thinking we need meat turns out to be wrong...just a bunch of "baloney" we have been fed from birth...


I find it funny that people here say that vegie food doesn't taste anything. Well no wonder if they steam the carrots until only carbohydrates remain. On the other hand, the meat food they provide in kindergarten isn't any better. Generally they all had quite slack stomach as a result of the food.

In one of the experiences I had, I actually managed to turn off the entire emotional aspect, whereas only the logical aspect remained. It was interesting to taste different things, as there wasn't any taste to it except logical functions which the body needed. Meat had a property of having somekind of poisonous attribute to it whereas living food had generally an adding property. Haven't yet been able to fully reproduce the state, so hard to do further experimenting on the subject. Might be a bunch of placebo also. Generally the body is quite good at adapting to various poisons.

[m1thr0s]

yeah...no kidding Amur...try boiling a steak until there's nothing useful left in it and see how good it tastes...yuck...hehe...

dedicated vegans/vegetarians tend to get very sophisticated with spices...take Indian cuisine or Tai Food for instance...

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

I've been more or less a vegan for almost three years now. I'm not 100% strict about it.

I still eat wild meat on occasion (venison and the like) as it's a long standing tradition in my family and I have much less of a problem with the hunt, and I will very rarely have a bit of sushi. Other than that, I don't eat farmed meat, or any kind of animal products.

I'm also a martial artist, and though it has a lot to do with simply eating healthier in general (more veggies, organic/whole foods, less packaged food, etc) I can attest that being a vegan has helped my performance immensely. I've also had more energy and been able to think in a clearer fashion. It also stripped every ounce of excess body fat on me inside of the first five months, and was the first step down a path of getting more in touch with my body.

Ahhh Thai food......how I love you.....:)

I would honestly say that becoming a vegan led me to where I am today. Buddhism led me to veganism. Veganism led me deeper into Buddhism. Veganism led me to different political and social perspectives. Those perspectives led me to research different cultures. That research led me to martial arts. Martial arts led me to meet new people. It all came together to reinforce a sense of discipline and self control, promoted an open mind, philosophy abounds, etc etc.

What really bugs me are the people that are given the information or confronted by a shocking fact about factory farming, and then just shrug it off and go on about their way. I'm by no means saying everyone should go vegan, I just think you have to be very shut down and detached not to act in some way when facing the facts about practices in the meat industry. I've also heard a lot of BS arguments for eating meat, and they usually come from people who are overweight, and the arguments are always flimsy. This just goes to show that people will do anything to convince themselves that the cage they've chosen (whatever particular belief they partake of) is the best/right/holy/sane/true one.

[Amur]

Compare this to 400 pound *pagans* who can barely make their way across the street and chalk it all up to goddess worship and I think you'll begin to note a bizarre discrepancy going on here.


In the same way, compare the occultists who have their room and apartment like a mess in many aspects, with undone dishes and so on and so on, to the one keeping it tidy. The power imo, lies in these small mundane things that we do.

Another great benefit from not eating meat is that ones sweat begins to become odourless more or less. Had a funny experience where I went to a chinese place and ate some meat(hadn't eaten meat in a while) and after a few hours my arm-pits had the same odour as the meat.

[m1thr0s]

I just think you have to be very shut down and detached not to act in some way when facing the facts about practices in the meat industry.I agree, and really it should be pointed out that the Meatrix isn't pushing veganism or vegetarianism necessarily. I have just sort of fused those two conversations because they are closely related but the whole point of the presentation was really to encourage people to support family-owned farms and generally boycott the unconscionable animal torture machine. What they are willing to do to animals in the name of profit they are just as willing to do to you, and in fact, are doing to you already...

m1thr0s

[frater luciferi]

i do labor work for a living, and i have tried to adopt veganism, although i have found it difficult to do so. Meat is a very good source of protein and stores easy. Not that i am not aware of the adverse health affects overusage of meat in combination with a physically sedentary lifestyle would cause.

[m1thr0s]

I would certainly not try to argue that meat is not a good source of protein since it obviously is. It is also true however that we know of virtually no incidents of "protein deficiency" anywhere in the world save only in the very poorest nations where people get virtually nothing at all to eat for many days on end. Protein is one of the easiest things to get from food in general and is provided in nuts and grains and beans (as well as many fruits and vegetables) in great abundance. Recent medical research has pointed to an actual protein excess in many people, particularly in affluent societies, that is beginning to look like it may be a serious player in many common health issues...

So I would only challenge the myth that we need meat to provide us with the protein we need. Moreover, I think we meat-eaters mostly just like meat...hehe... That we "need" it may be a complete fabrication...one that we have allowed because we basically like the stuff.

I should perhaps point out that I am not trying to start some kind of war between meat-eaters and non meat-eaters though. Rather I am interested in challenging my own assumptions about meat-eating and am willing to do this publicly. I am having a difficult time coming up with even one good argument for eating meat as a matter of necessity. There are tons of myths in circulation about meat...that we are genetically programmed to favor meat is a big one. Are we really? It's hard to say for sure since nearly all the meat we eat has additives in it anyway, taste enhancers and all that crap. It may be nothing more than an addiction in the final analysis...one that is propogated upon us in every way imaginable.

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

We have been looking at ethical farming at college this last month so these have been really good and fun to watch despite the seriousness of it all.

We are an organic family and we believe our food is ethically produced, it costs more but despite people saying it tastes the same, I would say go onto organic vegetables for a month, then go back to the chemical filled stuff, you can taste it in many veggies after that.

My concern now is that the rules about what and how much chemical stuff can go into organics is being relaxed so I am told.

Yes Amur, we do smell of what we eat. I am told that the British Army could be smelled by the opposition if they were non meat eaters : )

[fr.novumorganum]

I was a strict vegetarian for several years, and then several years as a "veg plus fish" type. During those years there was a general increase in my levels of tranquility, spirituality, and a general upward trend to my life here.

In the past year and a half, I have begun eating meat again (in modertation)....at the very least, my life has been filled with more anger and such negative feelings than I had in the previous 5 years. I do think there is some connection here.

[Amur]

Interestingly, I took a 'fuck it/whatever' attitude and feeling and began to eat meat with no thought put into it. Consciously I didn't atleast get the anger/negativity/insanity feeling I had been getting before. This in turn brought me to a grand-theory that everything in itself is already placebo, including life itself :D

[m1thr0s]

I am curious after having made these changes in your life Fr Novum, what do you think was the main reason you started in again eating meat? It would seem you would have already gone beyond any addiction issues that might be there...were there social factors perhaps?

m1thr0s

[fr.novumorganum]

No, I was far beyond the social pressure stage as well, and allmost everyone in my life had accepted it.

It was a combination of thinking about paradigm jumping --thinking that perhaps a belief system had gotten to strong a hold on me ( I now know this was a mistake) and, well, honestly, as a result of $$$ and time constraints having to eat just about whatever I could get.

I will say this, from my experience again, after adding even a small amount of meat back into the diet, cravings for other meat products began to reappear. Oddly, these cravings were only in regards to fast food and hot dogs...never a good cut of steak or a turkey sandwich.

[m1thr0s]

The inconvenience and cost of eating healthy are not trivial issues, that's for sure. The cost of organic fruits and vegetables alone can sometimes be 2 or 3 times the cost of non-organics. That's something that can only really change through supply and demand itself really...a long hard process, to belabor the pun...

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

Yes, it is a long hard process. I have had an organic delivery service from a small company for years, a couple of us unwittingly advertised it, not sure how the other person did it, but I had a full page article devoted to me in a glossy magazine where they reported that I ate organics and mentioned the company I used; their customers grew from this 'advertising', then they were able to offer more organic goods and the more the van is seen in the area, the more they are likely to attract new customers. Slow but sure.

[fr.novumorganum]

and the options we have now compared to 10 or even 5 years ago...

[Ðanisty]

Well, I guess I'm just a crude meat-eater...lol. I enjoy eating meat and I don't even care if there is a legitiamate dietary need for it. However, I do buy my meat from a local butcher and I'd rather eat a steak or chicken breast than a hamburger or hotdog any day.

[Radiant Star]

Well, I guess I'm just a crude meat-eater...lol. I enjoy eating meat and I don't even care if there is a legitiamate dietary need for it. However, I do buy my meat from a local butcher and I'd rather eat a steak or chicken breast than a hamburger or hotdog any day.

For me, I have found that I DO need to eat meet or I get anaemic. Nothing else seems to supply it in the right way for me and over the years I have become intolerant to the point of almost being allergic to some foods, so I consider it not only enjoyable but essential for my wellbeing.

Since I have heard stories about what is in in beefburgers and processed meats, I haven't been able to face them at all. Thankfully, we have lots of cookery books here so the meat recipes can be varied.

[m1thr0s]

yeah...I really don't think there is anything inherently wrong with eating meat in itself. I do think there is something wrong with supporting the kind of industry that the meat industry has become. Anything we can do to throw our support away from that industry can only serve to make life better for everyone I think...

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

yeah...I really don't think there is anything inherently wrong with eating meat in itself. I do think there is something wrong with supporting the kind of industry that the meat industry has become. Anything we can do to throw our support away from that industry can only serve to make life better for everyone I think...

m1thr0sBeyond that, I'm really big about supporting local guys. I feel good about buying my meat from a local butcher and I try to get my produce locally too when I can. It's not even really any more expensive...not here in Savannah, anyway.

[m1thr0s]

I still think the really big issue is that people think of veganism as "rabbit food" (in the words of Homer Simpson). I found a site that has a couple of free vegan cookbooks downloadable as pdf's if anybody is interested...

The Site: The Vitalita Culinary Group (VCG) (http://www.vitalita.com/vcg.html)

• Book #1 (pdf link): A Taste of Vitality (http://www.vitalita.com/docs/ATasteOfVitality.pdf) (8.2mb)

• Book #2 (pdf link): Desserts of Vitality (http://www.vitalita.com/docs/DessertsOfVitality.pdf) (5.3mb)

bonappetit,

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

Vegweb (http://vegweb.com/) is a site completely composed of recipes submitted by vegans and vegeterians, and there's quite a bit of tasty stuff in the works.

I can attest that after going vegan, I've actually eaten a greater diversity of food than I ever would have before, and have quite come to enjoy it.

[m1thr0s]

oooo...cool link zaii. thanks!
tons of stuff on that site...

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

Vegweb (http://vegweb.com/) is a site completely composed of recipes submitted by vegans and vegeterians, and there's quite a bit of tasty stuff in the works.

I can attest that after going vegan, I've actually eaten a greater diversity of food than I ever would have before, and have quite come to enjoy it.Of course there's no reason someone can't eat all of these things and still eat meat too. I've got a lot of vegetarian recipes from my father's side of the family (they're all Seventh Day Adventists) and having had a few vegan friends, I've had all kinds of eastern dishes that don't have any meat in them. There may be an awful lot of people who think vegetarians eat rabbit food, but there are also a whole lot of vegetarians who think the rest of us don't eat vegetables at all and apparently are completely uncultured when it comes to food in general. I'm not saying you guys specifically because I haven't seen any animosity from this group about it. I have seen it a lot in person though. Thanks for the link though. I've bookmarked it because I see they have some recipes for miso soup.

[m1thr0s]

yeah well, that's sort of where any kind of positive diet changes start for most people anyway, isn't it? Just broadening your range of eating habits to begin with I mean. Not everybody is going to be able to just go cold-turkey from one way to the other and it's not all that clear that's even the best way to do things unless you are really into the challenge of it or whatever. But I am guessing that for most, eating less meat dishes is going to have a lot to do with eating more vegetarian dishes first and if you find it's not so bad and you actually kind of like some of this stuff you'll probably start rethinking some of your food habits and start eating a little healthier more often etc...

I know a few vegans/vegetarians and right now I'm rooming with a couple of dedicated vegans. Most of them transitioned into being vegan over an extended period of time just because it made them feel better to do so. There are certain philosophical considerations as well of course. There are a few people who are just sort of food-fixated in some way that seem to attack it like a religion and they can actually be a little scary. I know a couple of people that really are not very healthy in their approach to food...think they are fat when they are actually anorexic etc. The whole health genre seems to invite a certain percentage of hypochondriacs who somehow manage to turn being healthy into a mental disorder, but it isn't the norm and people don't have to fall for extreme ways of thinking.

m1thr0s

[fr.novumorganum]

. The whole health genre seems to invite a certain percentage of hypochondriacs who somehow manage to turn being healthy into a mental disorder, but it isn't the norm and people don't have to fall for extreme ways of thinking.

m1thr0s

much like the occult or drugs or any activity which induces brain change (which i believe diet certainly does). experiment with diet changes for various operations and you'll get a new respect for those old fasting injunctions in teh old texts.

[Luciftias]

I've gone through the various phases of going veg and vegan. I very definitely felt as though I was addicted to the various types of meat. Breaking my addiction to beef took about a full year for me. I then spent two years having only eaten beef twice during that time (both times it was a high quality steak served to me at a special function such as a wedding.)

I also got really into raw foodism. I wasn't a raw foodist, but I was working towards drastically increasing my intake of raw and living foods - such as fresh fruits and vegetables, sprouts and soaked almonds. Even when I was cooking a meal, such as a lentil soup, I would short sprout the lentils first. It drastically increases the nutritional value of the legume by making the nutrients more bio-available. Anyways, I actually got to the point where it was taking up so much of my energy (the preparation of the sprouts fell into a kind of routine, so that wasn't too bad, but I was constantly thinking about food.) I got somewhat neurotic about it. I would sometimes rather not eat than eat something that I felt was unhealthy, and I'm a thin guy so that's not a good thing.

I finally decided to junk the whole thing and just eat what I felt like eating, or what was convenient, just to break my state. I started eating meat again and processed foods. Recently I moved to a much smaller city because of a new job that I applied for and received. Instead of working in an office, I pretty much drive around all day, stopping off at various locations where we have our equipment. During my training I started eating a lot of fast-food because it was the most practical thing at the time. My new place (including the kitchen) has taken a very long time to get in order - in fact, it's still in flux. I've been eating massive amounts of beef.

I can tell you that eating a diet low in meat and high in fruits, vegetables, legumes and whole grains especially with lots of raw and living foods, is without a doubt better for the digestive system. I personally find that if I don't have any animal products in my diet at all, that I start to get that "etherial" feeling that someone mentioned earlier in the thread. I find that it isn't the best state for me to be in. I prefer to have a bit of meat here and there to help keep me grounded. I also happen to really enjoy the taste and texture of meat. Maybe you could say that it's from my addiction, but I honestly doubt it. During that two year period of not eating beef, I still was able to really enjoy the taste of those two steaks without the cravings coming back. I think that the natural diet of the human animal is omnivorus. We started out as hunter/gatherers, and that kind of lifestyle would involve a heavier load of meat in the winter and an increase in plant foods in the warmer seasons. My body simply feels more natural when I eat for the season. More root vegetables and animal products (the good ole meat and potatoes) in the colder months and more sprouts and fruits and such in the spring, and somewhere in between the rest of the time.

Once my gf moves in (this week) and we get everything organized, I will definitely get into a routine of sprouting again and will be eating more reasonably than I am now. I prefer not to support the factory farms. I agree with, I think it was Zali, who said that they prefer wild meat. In my opinion, it's much more humane to let an animal live a free life in the wild before killing them for their meat rather than grow them as slaves in horrible conditions and artifical hormone/medication regimines before slaughtering them.

Luciftias

[Seipiriz]

Well I Turned to the vegeterian side of nutrition, however I had to stop after a muscle degrade in my ankle due to a dislocation I had in the past when doing tae kwon do...

I turned to vegetation not because of any religious or diet issues but because my body after the practice of Tantra desired a more lighter form of nutrition..

[Zaii]

Well I Turned to the vegeterian side of nutrition, however I had to stop after a muscle degrade in my ankle due to a dislocation I had in the past when doing tae kwon do...
.

So the diet was worsening your condition?

That sounds like a protein consideration more than a meat/no-meat one to me, but I could be wrong.

[feranaja]

Interesting thread, as always, and I don't think I have ever seen the topic discussed on a board with such maturity and respect.

As a canine nutritionist (and animal lover from way back) I encounter this topic professionally and personally all the time. Some of my clients have dogs on vegetarian diets and some have instructions from their vet to follow a meatless diet - even a Vegan diet. People on dog forums argue incessantly about this, but I find it's most constructive to strip away the personal - just for starters - and examine the facts as we currently know them.
Hard to do with such an emotionally charged topic..

Dogs, like humans, do not have a scientific requirement for "meat". Neither do they require protein per se, but the constituents of protein, which as most people know are amino acids - 11 essential for the dog, if you count taurine, which is "conditionally essential" - and nitrogen, which is less well understood by the layperson, but must be kept in a state of correct balance for optimal health to occur. All of the above can be accomplished in the canine, which to be fair, is a facultative carnivore, unlike ourselves who are much more omnivorous - on a plant based diet. The trick is to ensure that all amino acids are present in adequate supply - lysine, for example, is hard to find in adequate quantity in plant foods but abundant in quinoa - so, when I design a vegetarian or vegan diet for a dog, I always use quinoa as a staple carbohydrate source. It's a question of knowing what nutrients you arer removing when you remove meat - let's not forget zinc, copper, iron etc - and replacing them in other forms - not always so easy, but doable.

What I'm saying is, with some nutritional awareness and determination, one can easily feed a dog , who is far more carnivorous than we are - quite well on vegetarian diet. Allegedly the oldest dog in the world - well the most publicized old dog in the world at any rate - is vegetarian:
http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209/articles/020918a.htm
Living organisms require specific nutrients, and foods are delivery systems for those nutrients. There are other questions and factors of course, but for starters, no one requires "meat" except a true, obligate carnivore like the felidae family(and some people are successfullly feeding cats a vegetarian diet, which I think is pushing it, but that's my opinion only) . Dogs and humans can and do survive and even thrive on pant based diets, depending on the quality of the food and adequate presence of essential nutrients.


From a human health perspective, there are two points I feel are critical in this discussion. One, I do feel that humans must be like dogs (lol) in that beyond the parameters of minimum requirements, safe upper limits and so on, there is always a certain bioindividuality, wherein a diet that should, on paper, work well for one person simply doesn't, and yet is pure magic for another. This goes into that region that few in the nutrition world like to talk about, which is, basically "the stuff we don't know". A few years back we all thought flaxseed was a panacea, and we stuffed it into our dogs at an alarming rate, in cookies, Kongs, sprinked over home made food - and then the science told us that dogs can't convert the fatty acid in flax from an n-6 to an n-3; in plain language, it's useless, lol. And to boot, it causes allergies in many. So I stay humble here and recognize we have a LONg way to go in nutrition. What works for one may not for another. I see it in dogs every day.

And the second thing is, those 400 lb Pagans m1thr0s referred to - thanks for a chuckle there - may be vegetarians allright, because whoever said the diet was helathy? If all you do is remove meat, but continue to consume, oh let's see - heavy cheeses, excess omega6 fats (vegetable oil) and God forbid, heated fat - if you load up on honey thinking its somehow better than sugar - stuff yourself with bread muffins trans fats etc at the same time you have removed a great source of various minerals and accessible amino acids - well why would you expect to be healthy? I see people all the time who are radiantly healthy eating judicious amounts of meat and limiting heavy carbs and trans fats. Diet is never as simple as just removing a food group, but if you're going to do that, I suggest deep fried foods or refined anything before you take out meat.

Ditto for dogs; if you decide your best friend is a cow in disguise and feed stuff like corn and wheat all the time, you will have a very unwell dog. A good meatless diet for a dog should include lots of legumes and if possible yogurt and eggs. I personally wouldnt feed this way as I feel it's unfair to the dog, who lives to eat meat, let's face it - but I do feed two tofu/lentil days per week which I feel rests the liver and GI tract and promotes health in a variety of ways (you'd be amazed at how much dogs love tofu, lol) . Again as m1thr0s stated, moderation is harder to mediate than abstinence, but for me it's a preferable way of approaching this issue, for myself and for my own dogs and my clients.

On the ethical level, consuming anything factory farmed is repugnant to me. I can get anemic without a heme iron source in my diet - I can eat all the non-heme I like and it doesn't absorb, so I either eat a bit of red meat or else take supplements; the 7 years I was vegetarian I suffered poor health but then in those days I din't have the knowledge about nutrition that I do now, so I often think about giving it a shot again. At the very least I think I will detox over the winter and give my liver a rest. BUt I definitley feel that it's a mistake to assume vegetarianism is healthier than meat eating. That statement needs to be qualified by taking into account what kind and how much meat we're talking about, and whether the person giving it up will carry on with fried foods and white flour etc.

Ethically, I feel giving meat up entirely is ideal, but failing that, informed choices and moderation are a big step forward. As for becoming "lighter" etc, I also practise a CRON appraoch to my own diet - calorie restricted optimal nutrition - which can make you feel vyer transparent simply due to the fact you are eating so much less.(I do eat some meat but not beef or pork). When I started restricting calories (to maintain weight but also to promoted longevity) I felt really spacy a lot. Nowadays when I eat what a normal person does - for example I had a chicken enchilada at lunch the other day - I feel like I've been drugged...my mental clarity diminihses, I feel like there's a bowling ball in my abdomen - so the "lighter" state becomes the new normal and one is forced to employ other methods of grounding.I can put myself right out with enchiladas or I can practise breathwork and grounding - I'd have to say that the latter is preferable for me at this point. One does get lighter with less food, but I dont think the mere process of eliminating meat will do that, if, as mentioned, you just replace it with deep fried Mars Bars.

That's my take on all this. Studying canine nutrition has taught me a lot about how I eat, too -and working with animals keeps the inner dialogue regarding meat eating very active - so this is indeed a topic dear to my heart.

fera

[Forest Breath]

I have always been interested in the vegan life, however I do eat meat. I either process deer myself or I raise chickens for meat, putting them in the freezer in the Fall. Although I do have my share of meat, I fix a tremendous amount of vegan style dishes.

There are two things to consider. One is retraining your mind that meat is not absolutely needed in every meal, or every day for that matter. Another is....learn your spices and how to use them properly. Also, many people who have a distaste for tofu or tempeh may have never really had it cooked properly.

I have many vegeterian cookbooks that I refer to quiet often. I attempt to try new dishes on a regular basis. I can say, the spices and herbs are the maker or breaker for any veggie dish. Some people are a little leary and afraid of them, simply because they have never used them much. Go by taste....taste the dish as you cook it, taste the spices and see what tastes right for you. In all honesty you may screw up a little every once in awhile, but you can always adjust the recipe the next time you make it....

take notes!

I like my deer steaks, chops and even meatloaf with deer meat....but I enjoy my butternut squash lasagna and potato, mushroom and apple soup as well!

[Naomi]

Yeah I get that ethereal feeling when I don't eat meat....I found out it's anemia.

This is purely genetic, but when I went vegan I almost died. If I don't get red meat twice a week my body pretty much freaks out and I look whiter than I usually do.

When I told my native american side of the family I was a vegan they laughed at me. 'Yeah we'll see how long that lasts with your genes." and I hate that. I HATE being told I can't do something. It's really a big challenge to me. So I had to prove them wrong. Okay well, I almost died and that was the end of my year long veggie fest.

I save a lot more money now too. I don't have to buy bee pollen, 12 different vitamins, a variety of beans I don't even like to eat and various ingredients for expensive and complicated vegan recipes which can't be easily purchased from the local fast food restaurant on my busy busy mornings.

So really, we all have different engines, there's no one diet that's right for everyone. I suppose if your ancestors were from an agrarian nation a diet rich in wheat and vegetables is great for you.

Dairy makes me feel terrible. Look terrible too, and smell. :mfrown: Eggs do the same thing.

Magically speaking, there was a point there where I felt my consciousness swinging towards a new path. I suppose if I stuck with it I may have found myself practicing things entirely outside of my primary belief system because of the nature of the energy associated with vegetarianism or veganism.

Krsna consciousness advocates vegetarianism. India is a country of people who love dairy, with some regions allowing for the consumption of chicken or lamb....never beef. Hinduism has strict rules regarding any beef eating. Such a person is an untouchable. They're not really sure what came first...the untouchable nature of the person or the beef eating. It was not always this way in Hinduism. At one time, even Brahmins were cow eaters. The changes to their belief structure came after a series of revolutions within the Brahmin leadership. This extremism is possibly due to something in the scriptures that confessed that with an abstinence from sex, meat and alcohol, spiritual virtues could be obtained. I researched this on this site on untouchability:

http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ambekarbeef050703.htm

Lakota belief (which I adhere to as a sort of vanity for my genes) encourages the eating of beef...or at least buffalo, when it can be had these days, and states in general belief that buffalo give this sacrifice freely and it is pretty much a big insult to not accept it. Lakota also consider themselves a part of the buffalo nation. The two are inextricably linked. In legend Lakota and Buffalo people have even entered into marriage.

Now personally I think that Hinduism evolved and is present today in the state of Buddhism. Much of (not all) of what we call Hinduism today is only a qlippothic instance of what it once was.


Buddhism, too, prohibits meat eating on the grounds that it causes much suffering and prohibits other living creatures from experiencing life and the knowledge of enlightenment.

So where am I getting with all of this?

Quite simply, the thing that made me start eating beef again was not the fact that my health was fading, fast, but the knowledge that the Dalai Lama himself, a descendant of hunters and livestock herding people, ate meat for his health, on occasion, on the advice of his doctors.

So interesting, Feranaja that you seem to have had the same experience I did.

[feranaja]

It is a complicated issue, isn't it Naomi.

To be fair, I was vegetarian for seven years and I did not do the diet especially well. Plus, we know a lot more about nutrition in general, now than we did 20 years ago. For example, I am gluten intolerant (although not full celiac) and highly sensitive to yeast, so all those damn whole grain bagels practically put me in a coma. Peanut butter may contain aflatoxin and stresses the liver, honey is pure glucose in the system (just great for those of us with blood sugar issues, as I have a flat curve hypoglycemia) and myriad other granola fantasies of that era have now been scientifically debunked. I used to take B12 shots since I lack the intrinsic factor to absorb cobalamin (B12) from the stomach; we now know that if people like me just take a very high dose of it we can actually absorb some, so I take 1000 mcg twice a day as opposed to the useless 50 mcg that was the RDA back then(and no more shots).

And so on.

In any case, at the end of the day, if you feel like horse pucky on a diet you need to re-evaluate it. I feel superb on limited calories with a protein/fat/carb ratio of about 30/30/40 - and to make it more complicated, the protein needs to come from animal sources, I dont get the same energy from lentils. The fats needs to be PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids for those who care) and the carbs should be low glycemic and high fiber, such as sweet potato and quinoa. WHew! Its not all that complicated but it really makes a difference on how I feel. I consider this diet to be life extending and anti-inflammatory so I have no more joint pain and I sleep well. One day of beer and pizza I can handle, two makes me ill and if I do it more than a few days I'm a total wreck. the diet is the foundation of how I rejuvenated myself and went from Disability and overweight a few years ago, to doing 14 hour days, 3 miles a day, high energy and being mistaken for 35 :) Nutrition is serious magic.


On the other hand - my ex husband who is naturally very thin, absolutely thrived on the vegetarian diet when we were on it and could not understand how I ever went back to smelly dead animal parts.

The ethical issue is, to me, far more complex. It's more a matter of reducing the harm we do rather than thinking we can eliminate it. I may be sliding into a safe midddle ground here, but I truly think if we all made small but significant changes it would be more powerful than any small group making huge ones. In order for a radical shift in consciousness to occur, one that would create a true feeling of horror in people as to how we treat our non human brethren, many, many things need to manifest and it's quite possible it will take true catastrophe before we see such a change.

In the meantime, somewhere between veganism and factory farms there has to be a viable, sane, compassionate middle ground.

And Naomi, you advised me elsewhere last year on action I might take against the farmer who is lambasting the who area with herbicides, including the area right outside my house. I waffled a bit and felt that taking the moral higher ground was a better way. Three months ago my beloved Luke collapsed and died from an herbicide related cancer. I cannot tell you the devastation this has wrought to me and to my other dog. I'm sure I dont really have to try...

I have started a local initiative against this carnage - there are children here, for those who dont care about other species - and I have a motto with regard to people who flagrantly, needlessly toxify the environment: NO MORE PLAYING NICEY-NICE.

I doubt any action I took other than moving would have saved my poor baby, but action I take now may save others in future. I'm registering the Lightbringer Foundation in Luke's memory as a not-for-profit organization dedicated to eductaion regarding herbicides and pesticides and also to raising money for hemangiosarcoma research. A fairly common canine cancer, I spoke with the leading researcher (in Denver, Dr. Modiano) and he feels dogs are the canary in the coalmine here. We dont see HMS in humans other than Vietnam vtes who were exposed to Agent Orange - but Modiano feels we will start to see it more and more, in the general populace. This is a very aggressive and indolent cancer, as there are often no signs at all and then your dog simply dies. When this starts happening to humans, we'll all get upset. Meantime, idiots like this farmer need to kill every burdock and oatstraw he can find. Better idea that he should pull them up and sell them - both hugely useful medicinal herbs as you no doubt know.

Sad, short sighted species we are, really. I fnd it hard to separate issues like factory farming from things like pesticide use and cancer - it's all so blind, so ridiculous.

Ethically, I dont know quite what to do about meat consumption, except avoid the factory farmed stuff for now and limit cosnumption of that which I do eat.


Nice to hear from you, as always.
fera

[Naomi]

Sorry your dog died. That's why I don't have morals. They're a luxury no one can afford in the long run. You choose your camp and stay in it. Even if you're opposed to herbs there's no reason you couldn't send someone else to do the job for you. Maybe the giant black dog god of death and killing people who do stupid human things? Plus, killing by curse is pretty extreme. Maybe you could have distracted him or encouraged in his mind the idea that spraying pesticides was bad. It's not my mode of operation, but if it works, it works.

Well it does sound like some good came of it.

I hate nutrition and avoid studying it. My mother...that was her bag and you never want to be exactly like your parents these days, do you? Well the diet you say you are on sounds pretty much what she does, too, though she was a vegetarian for 7 years, now she eats meat every day and is incredibly healthy. I still managed to pick up some knowledge to get me by, as I was bombarded with health food and herb knowledge daily, so I did know of those herbs.
:mconfused:

But the information you gave is very useful to me and I am going to modify my grocery list.

Because I don't have the patience to study nutrition scientifically I try to reason with it. Genetically my body should be most suited for the food my ancestors ate in native territory. The only way to get this info is to have my dna sample analyzed to figure out where in the world I come from, as I'm a mix of a lot of different ones, and look at what they eat.

Who eats peanuts and yeast as a traditional food? Why did it spread across the entire world food system? Is there anyone who can tolerate the modern diet without feeling sick?

:mfrown:
Veganism is a nice idea. It's the reason why I wanted to try it in the first place. I suppose they'll figure out a way for it to work eventually, both economically and nutritionally, but until them I'm not going to advocate a wide scale effort to veganize the population. Meat is a cheap and easy way to afford good health for many people who can't afford supplements.

People just need to stop eating cheese and meat and eggs at every meal and take their damn garlic. Then they also need to stop spraying lysol on everything in their house. I'll bet that most of the cancer in the U.S. is caused by cleaning freaks more than meat freaks or herbicide.

I would appreciate a grocery store system that had nothing but organic local foods. I don't want to be a farmer. :dull:

[feranaja]

Ahh so your mom was a hippie, yes? I understand your concerns. :) My parents are of a generation that allowed themselves to go all to pot at a shockingly early stage, and so my group - which likely is the same as your mom's - got a bit extreme in our reaction. But seriously, obesity is linked to so many illnesses and in many cases its a reversible condition - although I dont say by willpower alone. It always pains me to hear my obese, prematurely aged father going on about canada's troubled healthcare system. If people would learn some nutrition basics and live a bit more healthfully, we'd take a huge burden off the system. I'm not an extremist in any sense as you know, but I do think it behooves us all to eat right for our own needs, and to recognize that food is powerful medicine.

A book that clued me in a long time ago is by Anne Marie Colbin, simply titled Food and Healing. In it, she discusses how it just makes sense to use food therapeutically to correct whatever imbalance we have been indulging in. For example, if you've been gluttonizing on red meat and white flours, processed foods, all acidifying - then a phase of eating alkalinizing, plant based foods will help clear the system and you'll feel much better. But she points out that longterm, there are potential problems with all diets and because a diet helped you recover from an excess state doesn't mean it's an optimal one for life, much less for all people. It may just be the right approach for that particular phase of your life, much as I am cutting out meats for now since I've been abusing my liver with alcohol.

I'm not entirely convinced about the genetic idea, to be honest. We hear this a lot in dog nutrition and there is no hard sciiece to back it up. I'm not about to feed my Ridgebacks gazelle and zebra at any rate(the whole so-called natural diet movement in dogs is just this side of idiocy, but that's another topic)
And as for me? I'm Irish, and profoundly allergic to potatoes. So if there's a clue, it may also be that whatever one's ancestors ate a lot of, could have annoyed their immune systems to the point of reaction?

Peanuts seem to have been a staple in parts of Africa as far as I can tell. Yeast makes me immediately ill so if I have it, it better be in the form of a nice Chardonnay. Bread I may as well tape to my ass, as the expression goes. Just not worth it. Now gluten - dont get me started or I will no doubt evoke your mother's kitchen tirades. But... it's a horrible thing to feed dogs and many people have a subclinical reaction to it as well - usually cumulative and often with direct immune system fallout. The catch here is that dietary gluten - in wheat, barley, oats and rye - can cause a condition called leaky gut, whereby the intestinal mucosa breaks down and allows larger molecules through than it ought to, this creating an auto immune response (inflammation). In dogs we see this all the time, a grain based diet creates such conditions as Inflammatory Bowel Disease, allergy, lupus and probably cancer, although we dont have any science on the last one its widely believed in the community. In humans, I think the"reasoning with your body" approach works well; if you suspect gluten is a problem, take it out of the diet for a while and see if you dont feel better. Grains are a huge problem for many people; we all have to experiment a bit and see.


And while I tend to agree about garlic, again, people need to exercise caution. Some people are adversely affected by it (GI distress, and no one with anemia, a clotting disorder or who takes anticoagulant medication should take garlic regularly - I think that even those who are using high dose blood-thinning supplements such as Vitamin E and fish oil, should exercise caution when it comes to garlic). I use the Sloan Kettering site quite a bit for my own resources; here is a good page on garlic:

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69230.cfm#Warnings

Note that one is advised to discontinue use prior to surgery. Platelet function may be a problem for some individuals and especially if used in tandem with other blood thinners.

Household chemicals are a huge problem of course and Lysol?? DON'T get me started, lol.

The single most common mistake I see when it comes to canine nutrition may well have human applications. People read some diet book,and decide this one (usually a bad book filled with hyperbole and rhetoric and lacking in any scientific back up) is the Ultimate One - so if the dog doesn't thrive on it they look for answers elsewhere instaed of reconsidering the diet. It seems basic to me that not all diets work for all individuals and if Atkins made you ill? It may well work for someone else.

If you have good energy, are not overweight or suffering from various ailments - then whatever you're doing works. but bear in mind that it may change. Seniors, menopausal women - people with health challenges - all face unique nutritonal challenges. Stay open, don't stress and dont believe everything you read.

Unless, of course, it comes from me.
;)


feranaja

[Zaii]

The Atkin's diet makes me want to punch babies.

[feranaja]

Too much protein, your serotonin shut down. Try a Zone type diet which of all the pop diets out there makes the most sense to me, nutritionally. Lower carb but not nearly as low as Atkins. Atkins made me dizzy and my breath smelled like acetone (ketosis). And, you gain all the weight back as soon as you go off it.

Still, it works for some people. One size definitely does not fit all when it comes to food.
fera

[Zaii]

Oh no, I've never been on the atkins diet. I've been more or less a vegan for the last four years or so. Just the fundamental principles of the atkins diet piss me off and make no sense.

[Okazaki Castle]

Well, I used to be vegetarian for 11 years as a child, by voluntary choice, then took a break and ate meat for a while, then became vegetarian again but stricter when pursuing an indian meditation system (no eggs either this time) then after all that, found Jasmuheen. She taught a new fangled method whereby you fasted for three weeks, no water or liquids for the first seven days, and then after that coiuld live on light! Now I thought that was a fantastic idea because it meant that I could then go trekking without having to pack supplies, could stone without having to do munchies ever, and would not need to cook if I couldn't be bothered.

So I did that, and found that it worked!! But. When you live like that you get really thin, and don't need to sleep really either (cuz digestion takes up huge ammounts of the body's energy and recuperation time). So I went back to eating after about 4 months. More social too. People think you're weird when you don't food at all, just smoke and have sex all the time...

However, tha advantage of doing the breathrian process was that after that I didn't have to give a damn about what I ate really, as my body would just adjust. Food being surplus and for pleasure and weight after that, as nutritional the light took care of it all. This is what firts made me realise that Jasmuheen was connected to, and fronting, a group of very talented PSI Vampyres - though prbbly unaware of the fact herself, tthough a very sweet girl worthy of strong respect.

Now I eat mainly for pleasure, plus ginseng. Ginseng I have a lingering taste, plus its good for you and helps one to connect to Taosit sages (like a link principle). Pleasure is based on leisure time, plus quality, organic ingredients. Though I occasionaly like to cook and am in fact exceedingly good at it, like most things, when I turn my hand in that direction, fundementally I believe, as a matter of personal ethical principles, that one should delegate culinary matters to a professional chef. Thus it is revealed how, once again, this world forces me to be evil and interferes with the Religious Tenets of my religion in an oppressive way, for they don't give me enough money to have my own personal team of chefs, and my personal religion happens to be Temple of Venus and the worship of sensuality.

Ultimately I'd like to subsist on a diet of sexual energy, the occasional fine meal, fresh fruit and juices, and occasional blood from pretty, sexy and kinky women, once I've got the Vampyric fangs properly mutated into place. Restaurants also too at times for fun and to pass the time.

I also think we should do dinner parties all together.

As regards meat, I think people should be willing to kill what they eat personally, if they want to eat it. Beyond that I don't take a moral position, because as Naomi said, or didn't, life is more fun without morals...

Regards all,
Oazaki.

[Zaii]

I'm not trying to be a prick, but if people can live on light alone, why do we starve?

[m1thr0s]

I'm not trying to be a prick, but if people can live on light alone, why do we starve?maybe we're chewing it all wrong...:laugh:

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Coming soon to a theatre near a McDonald's near you:

http://www.reelviews.net/2005images/fast_food.JPG

Linklater has fashioned Eric Schlosser's
exhaustive nonfiction bestseller about
the bloody tentacles of the fast-food
industry into a morality play about the
vicious circle of consumption that puts
the worker in the maw of the corporation.

from: http://www.boston.com/movies/display?display=movie&id=9315

I like the tag line... :yes:

[Naomi]

Well, I used to be vegetarian for 11 years as a child, by voluntary choice, then took a break and ate meat for a while, then became vegetarian again but stricter when pursuing an indian meditation system (no eggs either this time) then after all that, found Jasmuheen. She taught a new fangled method whereby you fasted for three weeks, no water or liquids for the first seven days, and then after that coiuld live on light! Now I thought that was a fantastic idea because it meant that I could then go trekking without having to pack supplies, could stone without having to do munchies ever, and would not need to cook if I couldn't be bothered.

So I did that, and found that it worked!! But. When you live like that you get really thin, and don't need to sleep really either (cuz digestion takes up huge ammounts of the body's energy and recuperation time). So I went back to eating after about 4 months. More social too. People think you're weird when you don't food at all, just smoke and have sex all the time...

However, tha advantage of doing the breathrian process was that after that I didn't have to give a damn about what I ate really, as my body would just adjust. Food being surplus and for pleasure and weight after that, as nutritional the light took care of it all. This is what firts made me realise that Jasmuheen was connected to, and fronting, a group of very talented PSI Vampyres - though prbbly unaware of the fact herself, tthough a very sweet girl worthy of strong respect.

Now I eat mainly for pleasure, plus ginseng. Ginseng I have a lingering taste, plus its good for you and helps one to connect to Taosit sages (like a link principle). Pleasure is based on leisure time, plus quality, organic ingredients. Though I occasionaly like to cook and am in fact exceedingly good at it, like most things, when I turn my hand in that direction, fundementally I believe, as a matter of personal ethical principles, that one should delegate culinary matters to a professional chef. Thus it is revealed how, once again, this world forces me to be evil and interferes with the Religious Tenets of my religion in an oppressive way, for they don't give me enough money to have my own personal team of chefs, and my personal religion happens to be Temple of Venus and the worship of sensuality.

Ultimately I'd like to subsist on a diet of sexual energy, the occasional fine meal, fresh fruit and juices, and occasional blood from pretty, sexy and kinky women, once I've got the Vampyric fangs properly mutated into place. Restaurants also too at times for fun and to pass the time.

I also think we should do dinner parties all together.

As regards meat, I think people should be willing to kill what they eat personally, if they want to eat it. Beyond that I don't take a moral position, because as Naomi said, or didn't, life is more fun without morals...

Regards all,
Oazaki.

Oazaki, what do you mean that cooking is against your religious principles? I don't understand. :mconfused:

Yes, my mother always told me when I bemoaned the lack of fangs that seem to be common amongst native people, she told me "Just picture them growing, and they will come in." So I did that and it worked! But only on one side. :mmad:

I havn't had a real vampire fetish for a while, I guess the easiest way to do it is by dentist. Unless you want to have a contest to see who can grow fangs the fastest using meditation.

But damn, vampires are sexy. Yes, I like Venus and all that but give me Lelith in her Queen of the Night form and damn, I'll be a lesbian right then and there. That's why I stay away from her. :mrolleyes:


maybe we're chewing it all wrong...:laugh:

m1thr0s

AAAH! AH! Of course! :mshocked:

[feranaja]

OT but Venus has a very dark smoldering aspect. It's only her public image thats all blonde and sparkly. How could She rule the erotic and be limited to a sweet and sunny persona? My Aphrodite has many faces...no stereotypes in the Temple, anything goes.

fera

[Radiant Star]

Interesting diversion, but can the next poster get this back on topic please.

[Okazaki Castle]

Oazaki, what do you mean that cooking is against your religious principles? I don't understand. :mconfused:

Well, I don't mind cooking but I choose to have religious principles which play havoc with established mainstream human legal precedent. Thus, it is part of my religion for me to be very rich, rule everybody and also have lots of personal chefs. That banks, who create money out of thin air, refuse to cooperate with that religiohn and give me what I need to fulfill it is grounds for holy war,. or jihad. That's why I occupied the Al-Qaeda forms and got Laurent of the Xavier (French Vampyre clan) to kill Osama for me (plus OBL needed rewiring and stuff, and was losing, unforgivable crime when doing the mahdi role...)


I havn't had a real vampire fetish for a while, I guess the easiest way to do it is by dentist. Unless you want to have a contest to see who can grow fangs the fastest using meditation.


Don't like dentist, the contest sounds like fun, let's do it!! The winner gets to suck blood from the other person, deal? We can use other esoteric tools aswell, eg magick, mutation, etc Sound good to you?

I'm not trying to be a prick, but if people can live on light alone, why do we starve?

Well, you can't live on light alone unless you do special alchemical, meditative or other such practices to develop/acquire that ability. It doesn't come for free you know. That does not mean however that it is not possible to develop. This is more understandable to most people when reffered to the realm of PSI vampyrism whereby you can get your nutritional needs simply by leaving others in your vicinty very, very drained. They feel it, hence believe it, hence their mind structure gets out of the way regarding your living off other ethereal energies instead. People don't like to be food you see, even less so than they like having thier long-standing assumptions broken, all self-interest in a way, but it works, etc and so on...

all the best,
Oazaki.