Spider Wisdom

[Qaexl]

I see these phrases, "Spider Wisdom" and "Spider Kissing" pop up from time to time. It wasn't until I saw this post back on OF that it came together:

Spider LinesI don't know if anyone else has experienced this but i think it is energy of some sort (chi?) that I am able to perceive now. I notice this stuff energy more or less that comes off of everything that looks like some kind of fuzz or energy that comes off of everything. Sometimes it is in different colors. Me and my freind will go down to these woods we will become very energized and see spider webs of light and what looks like heat distortion coming off of our arms, heads and bodies in the dark. OccultForum Post (http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=26140)SophiaThis view could hardly be more opposite to the understanding of Wisdom's (http://hiddenstorehouse.com/somatic_way/index.php/Shakti) essence as sheer delight in the bringing together of mind and matter, of the creative force and the material which is to be worked and so transformed. Instead of that essential unity, there is as essential a divorce between spirit and matter. As the Olympians might have seen it, it is the shift from Athene, the ever-near, the mistress of crafts, to Apollo, who shoots from afar his arrows of pure, bright and abstract thought. In the terms of this book's hypotheses, it is a decisive shift in the understanding of the nature of consciousness. THere is no room in this scheme of things for a creative feminine consciousness. Already the creative power of the mind is being sexed as wholly masculine.-- Ann Shearer, Athene: Image and Energy (p 125)Did they tell Pandora, that other woman, that above all and whatever else she was not, repeat not, to open that jar? And did she, lik Eve, just have to disobey, to do that one forbidden thing, and so let fly into the world every grief, pain and sickness known to humankind? As we know, Pandora, the All-Giving, is one of the titles of Rhea, daughter of Gaia, Mother Earth herself; her other name, Anesidora, means 'she who brings gifts from below'. Some say that what she contained in her great pithos, her great jar, was nothing less than the power of the goddess, the cycle of life and death itself. (ibid., pp 113-114) ...The shift in understanding of the nature of masculine and feminine -- and so, inevitably, of man and woman -- could not have been more profound. Athene as nous kai dianoia, Minerva as mens: these esssential qualities of mind, thought and understanding which were once intrinsic to the feminine spirit are now entirely matters for the masculine. There is now no place in the concept of the feminine for the bright, inquiring energy that Athene brings to her transformations of matter, for any one of her ideas and devices, inventions and resources. There's no palce either for that 'seeing' which is the flash of understanding -- of the way things fit, how they work, where it's all going. When Pandora and Eve exercise that very energy, when they want to explore, to find out, to move humankind on a bit, just as the goddess so often did herself, it is not their courage or their adventurousness which is praised but their disobedience which is condemned. The very curosity which is the motor of the human urge to understanding, the very refusal to accept the given ways without question become part of woman's sin. All those openings through the ages -=- of jar, of gateway, of forbidden locked room -- are supposed now to lead to nowhere by a crudely sexual metaphor for woman's insatiable and dangerous lust.(ibid., pp 115-116) ... Already in the early years of the fifth century, Mary is recognized in the sermon preached in Constantinople on her December feast day not simply as 'servant and mother', but as 'the only bridge between God and men, the awesome loom ... on which the garment of union was woven.'. There is an echo here of another loom, another weaver -- Athene's Egyptian counterpart, Neith, who as creating mother wove the loom of the sky, 'the first to create the seed of gods and men'. The shift in the imagery is instructive: the femiine is no longer the active, creative weaver, but rather the passive loom, that upon which a greater power is at work. (ibid., pp 118-119).Spirit Valley

谷神不死 The Spirit Fountain never dies
是謂玄牝 We call this the Mysterious Feminine (Great Mother)
玄牝之門 The Doorway to the Mysterious Feminine
是謂天地之根 We call this the Root of Heaven and Earth.
綿綿呵若存 Lingering like gossamer (breath), it appears to exist
用之不勤 Use as you will, never exhausted.
-- Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching (http://hiddenstorehouse.com/somatic_way/index.php?title=Tao_Te_Ching&action=edit)Like a tourist, you must slip through Lucifer's huge, dark, empty throne room buried deeper than a bomb shelter -- a shattered bunker at the end of a desolate and blasted path through the legions of the damned -- before you appreciate the kindness of the war angels of the Great Mother to whomn everything is personal. Her eyes see every sparrow, yet you doubt that you are not already categorized within the web? Dream on. Angels who get uppity also learn to fear Mother Nature. When the old mystics opined, "As above; so below" they might have been referring to the power struggles that exist in both light and shadow.-- Glenn Morris, Shadow Strategies (See Valley of Death (http://hiddenstorehouse.com/somatic_way/index.php/Valley_of_Death))

See Also

Archive (http://hiddenstorehouse.com/somatic_way/index.php/Spider_Wisdom)
Livejournal Post: Drugged Meat Method (http://qaexl.livejournal.com/161965.html)

[Kain]

Spider Lines

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this but i think it is energy of some sort (chi?) that I am able to perceive now. I notice this stuff energy more or less that comes off of everything that looks like some kind of fuzz or energy that comes off of everything. Sometimes it is in different colors. Me and my freind will go down to these woods we will become very energized and see spider webs of light and what looks like heat distortion coming off of our arms, heads and bodies in the dark. OccultForum Post (http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=26140)I see it too with a little effort...I am not always sure as to what exactly it is, as usually the fields I am absolutely certain I visually perceive are quite detached from ordinary 3-dimensional space (like those pictures I posted not far back concerning portal-like constructs, Bindu and Ajna)...the interesting thing I perceive is that, them being free from adhering to the three dimensions of physical space, they can also 3-dimensionally situate themselves temporarily and at will. This is the fundamental principle allowing telekinetics, and other similar direct manifestations pertaining to the physical plane...a very interesting property of subtle space...

Kain

[Qaexl]

I see it too with a little effort...I am not always sure as to what exactly it is, as usually the fields I am absolutely certain I visually perceive are quite detached from ordinary 3-dimensional space (like those pictures I posted not far back concerning portal-like constructs, Bindu and Ajna)...the interesting thing I perceive is that, them being free from adhering to the three dimensions of physical space, they can also 3-dimensionally situate themselves temporarily and at will. This is the fundamental principle allowing telekinetics, and other similar direct manifestations pertaining to the physical plane...a very interesting property of subtle space...

Kain

I have seen the field distortion. I don't think I've ever seen the spider webs. Until that got posted, every time Dr. Morris mentions "spider wisdom", I thought "huh?"

Since then, I have been able to see ... sorta, lines of fate as spider webs. I've been able to track semantic webs since middle school. Interestingly enough, I was reading a book on neural nets and asked my teacher what 'paradigm' meant; he grabbed the dictionary and said "model" and I realized there's something interesting about paradigms derived from a dictionary.

I can see streaming ... steaming flowing around. But spider webs? Two of my friends see them, one having seen them a long time, and one without. I can imagine someone in ancient time having come to see this, wondering ... just who is it that wove these strands of light?

When I hear those words, I think they look either like gossamer (like real spider webs), or they look like sharp webs of light. What do they look like?

-Qaexl

[Kain]

When I hear those words, I think they look either like gossamer (like real spider webs), or they look like sharp webs of light. What do they look like?

-QaexlThey can be both at times. You see, the "steaming" distortion you describe is certainly a very common one. However, looking closer you will often see inner geometrical structures inherent to the steam, as if the subtle visual "fluff" you see is composed of complex geometrical matrices very akin to how a spider web looks like. Another good parallel whould be a snowflake. A quite common occurance would be the webs of light motif however, as you can get to see various "connections" around you, sometimes more distinct than others...I have a friend who used to see these almost constantly for quite a few years as a kid...he tells me that his feelings at the time were that he was disgusted (!) to see himself so intricately woven with his surroundings...lol...especially in public places...

For me however it seems like a "steam" distortion first appears (most detached from three-dimensional space), which slowly becomes clearer, it's composition revealing intricately complex lines/links with the environment. Spider lines wouldn't be the first depiction to come to mind, but I can see why they could be viewed this way, especially in ancient times.

Kain

[Amur]

If you haven't read Frank Herbert's take upon time/fate as a spider's web, I suggest you get the dune sagas and read through it.

If you have an oppurtunity to study the workings of a spider in nature, I suggest you take it. It can be very valuable to monitor how it functions.

A functional web, provides functional patterning for all.

Grand-mother spider generally ties together all-time for everyone, according to their own place/path. If she creates time, then she is behind the experiencer for everyone. As without time, experiencing would be quite different. Lady in Black, or The Black Mother. If she calls you, she can give you quite the lesson. Humility brings alot in these kind of encounters.

Materia is the receiving part in this place, light is the emitting part. The other one is active, the other frozen. Matter is by definition black, as it doesn't emit light. It only becomes visible in it's various shapes when a light particle hits it bouncing off from it, whereas the matter eats the light resonating with the matter, the rest is bounced off.

A wicked idea just came to be. If we go forward in rotations, every particle is matter. If we go backward in rotations in the same place, every particle turns to anti-matter, which in turn added to the other time-frame synchronistically should create pure energy or light everywhere. hmm. :D Guess it's time to destroy the universe soon :cool: Might be a logical blip in this though. Checking backwards in time at things. The matter becomes the light-emission source, which in turn is collected at the point of the sun with the fusioned matter dividing itself with the energy it got from the light. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Light(moving energy) loves matter(frozen energy), and matter loves light. That's the way I see it. But feel free to take away the love replacing something else with it hehe... That's about it what I wanted to ramble out on the matter. Flaws in logic pointings are very welcome. This mind is far from efficiently working.

[Kuroyagi]

Some intersting quotes, Qaexl.
When Pandora and Eve exercise that very energy, when they want to explore, to find out, to move humankind on a bit, just as the goddess so often did herself, it is not their courage or their adventurousness which is praised but their disobedience which is condemned. This author unfortunately seems to lack the ability to differentiate: I havent read anything else by her but she seems to propagate some pan-female theory that equals female=always suppressed and good.

I think one needs to be a little cautious with Athene as she represents something completely different than the other Goddesses (Pandora and Eva)- her wisdom is (positively) formulated: a yet-growing one, or a restricted or even stunted one. She is not fully a woman. In my experience with her she is quite a tomboy. She is under-sexed, likes to hang out with men as buddies and is overintellectual- and this is no wonder since she is born from the head of Zeus and wears that shining armour. She is the anti-thesis to such sorcerous women like Medusa, Pandora or Medea who are normally very voluptious and conscious of their femininity- and for me incorporate much more the side of female wisdom per se. [but surely I’d agree that the anitque Greek society itself was one of the most misogynic ones I know.]

Athene's Egyptian counterpart, Neith, who as creating mother… And this should be Athenes- the virgin Goddess’- counterpart?? A Creating Mother? I confess that I’m not that firm in Egyptian lore but I know the Greek pantheon quite well…

Anyway, that shouldn’t mean that I’m averse to the basic theory of the Dark Female, the Earth Mother of Creation- actually I’m quite fond of it, too; but still there are other female archtetypes and other female experiences that are well represented by various goddesses- and are possible to experience in e.g. invocation or poetry/creation and journeying etc…

All in all I think that the whole Underworld is very much distorted by the (Christian) view of Hell as a place of suffering and punishment. I get the impression that very many occultists and other ppl (like Dante) are wrongly influenced by this and thereby perceive the underworld as a cruel place of sinners, heathens and (personal) enemies who are punished.

Now back to the general theme of the thread (?): Though I myself think that this sort of pandaimonic hell-region of suffering may be existant in form of a pocket reality, it is only an unimportant and non-representative part of the underworld. As Laodan wrote: the more powerful meaning of the Underworld is rather that one of a place of regeneration and transmutation. True: there are streams of blood- but there are also vast oceans of sweet-water (cf. Sumerian mythology: Enki/Ea, the land of Kur, and the palace of Ereshkigal, but also e.g. Greek: Poseidon, Bacchus (transsexual deity originally))…and these waters are as you see the waters of Life, often guarded by a beast which is not the Devil but maybe rather a wise creature. Also: often high Underworld deities are either female or feminin males or if primordial then often both male and female (with a slight leaning to female)…what I mean to say is: somehow I very much agree with those authors but for my taste they are still (unconsciously?) very much coloured by their (religious) conditioning, be it that they are against everything that could even remotely reek of (female) suppression and x-tianity or be it that they employ the unnecessarily cruel and hierarchical angel/devils(demons) dichotomy…

As for Spider: it’s a bit difficult to make the connection here. For me spider is the eightfold clown, sometimes controlling sometimes cheating and perusing time and space, weaving fate and being fond of writings and technology, s/he can be cruel and a trickster even to hir own disadvantage…yet (only IMO) he’s not the primal force of creation and reception and neither the thing-to-be projected therein but rather the manipulative joker on the wheel of life itself…

[Qaexl]

Some intersting quotes, Qaexl.
This author unfortunately seems to lack the ability to differentiate: I havent read anything else by her but she seems to propagate some pan-female theory that equals female=always suppressed and good.

See below.

I think one needs to be a little cautious with Athene as she represents something completely different than the other Goddesses (Pandora and Eva)- her wisdom is (positively) formulated: a yet-growing one, or a restricted or even stunted one. She is not fully a woman. In my experience with her she is quite a tomboy. She is under-sexed, likes to hang out with men as buddies and is overintellectual- and this is no wonder since she is born from the head of Zeus and wears that shining armour. She is the anti-thesis to such sorcerous women like Medusa, Pandora or Medea who are normally very voluptious and conscious of their femininity- and for me incorporate much more the side of female wisdom per se. [but surely I’d agree that the anitque Greek society itself was one of the most misogynic ones I know.]

That was not the author's thesis at all, though it might not be apparent in the tiny excerpt. For one thing, she made clear (in passages not quoted here) that Athene in the early Greek was one of the triple-Goddess image that used to be unified into a single imagery. Your description of Athene is actually the later-evolved Minerva image the Romans used, and not the feel the Greeks have.

Athene commissioned Perseus to bring back Medusa's head, which she then mounted on Aegis. That is, Athene reclaimed the power of Medusa. Athene was the co-creator of Pandora. She breathed life into the vessel forged by Hephaestus, that is, the essence of Pandora at its core is Athene. In two of the three examples you gave of the sorcerous women that appears to be the antithesis of Athene, there is not that large of a gap.

In the wall carvings of the Parthenon, she is depicted sitting with Zeus, Hera and Hephaestus -- Hephaestus is the Athene's counter-part, being born from Hera. It is balanced, even in the temple dedicated to Athene's worship. This was brought up by the author in the book, that is to say, an example that she wasn't trying to apply a pan-female theory.

(By the way, Aegis is not a shining armor. It is animal skin, her father's Aegis. Maybe you were thinking of her shining helmet or her flashing eyes.)

This image that I see is resonant to shakti, action; in the singular form, you have the terrifying Daikini. Suppressed? No. Good? According to the author, this was an artifact of splitting the goddess image into Eve and the Virgin Mary.

And this should be Athenes- the virgin Goddess’- counterpart?? A Creating Mother? I confess that I’m not that firm in Egyptian lore but I know the Greek pantheon quite well…

The excerpt I wrote above had a number of supporting details and assertions leading to that massive block of what appears to be unsupported assertions. The main thing is that Minerva != Athene. That is, Athene was an active image that later evolved to the more passive, intellectual Minerva. The image we receive today is Minevera rather than Athene. The older images of Athene was characterized by the bright eyes (the Owl at Night), what in the internal achemy is the emission of wisdom light. The author wrote how, most of the Olympian gods stayed up in Mt. Olympus, yet Athene often came down to inspire and motivate the humans in the field of action.

Remember the story of Athene and the weaver, Arachne? Arachne became proud of her weaving skills (skills, which apparently in the ancient times were in the domain of the feminine) and came to challenge Athene. Arachne lost. Instead of killing Arachne, Athene transformed her into the spider. That is to say in this mythic image, Arachne's skill is Athene. Athene wasn't just weaving a random loom; she was weaving the loom that is the people of Greece and the matrix of Time and Space, and that is the connection with the Egyptian goddess and the spider.

Now, I admit. As the author wrote more and more of the modern imagery later in the book, it appeared more and more like a diatribe of the suppressed feminine, enough so that I had to slog my way through the chapters until I gave it up for the moment. When I picked this book up, I was searching for an answer for this question: what is feminine power? In our current society (specifically America), there is a very real disconnect between the meaning of "feminine" and "power", since 'feminine' brings up the emotional imprint of passive; to reconcile with the image of an active female, we see the image of a tomboy, as you have done and I have done and still sometimes do. I was searching for an undistorted image of the active feminine that is not a tomboy, and I found it in Athene: Image and Energy.

However, the main thesis of the author's book is not that the energy of Athene became suppressed. Rather, she became a protector of the active feminine principle that appears suppressed in these days. That is to say:

若蚨母之 This is like a mother ground-spider
從子也 following the needs of her offspring:
出無間 when she leaves her burrow, she leaves no gap;
入無朕 and when she goes back into her burrow, she leaves no trace.
獨往獨來 She goes out independently and comes back independently,
莫之能止 and no one can stop her.

From the Master of Demon Valley

-Qaexl

[Kuroyagi]

Hey, thanks for freshing up my memory here and there. (And I knew that- depending on the version- Athene has Medusas head engraved on her shield and that her harnish is of goat fur IIRC I was rather referring to the armour as "a whole", part of her image etc...)...but still I have had two impressions when dealing and analysing the now-present goddess image of her 1) that all her paraphernalia (the night owl- bird of night and the underworld with those piercing eyes, the armour, the medusa head engraving) somehow serves an evilaverting an apotropaic function, also somehow to protect her virginity- as if she were afraid of letting herself go resp. being deconsecrated and 2) her connection to the initiation of Western philosophy and science for that she still somehow stands and that "she" influenced since it got major impulses from her city Athens (and the platonic academia etc): dont you think that some of its shortcomings (like being quite intellect-logic and scripture based) as well as some of its great advantages (as the author maybe supported) can also be brought in connection to her (at least to her modern (in your words Minervan) mythology? Or are such theories too unscientific or speculative/occult in your view?

Well, anyway, the thing about the triple Goddess image sounds exciting to me- it would be interesting what her sources were for that...got any links? (Im unfortunately severed from my library right now out of personal circumstances)

[Qaexl]

Hey, thanks for freshing up my memory here and there. (And I knew that- depending on the version- Athene has Medusas head engraved on her shield and that her harnish is of goat fur IIRC I was rather referring to the armour as "a whole", part of her image etc...)

That's true, she is rather shiny.

...but still I have had two impressions when dealing and analysing the now-present goddess image of her 1) that all her paraphernalia (the night owl- bird of night and the underworld with those piercing eyes, the armour, the medusa head engraving) somehow serves an evilaverting an apotropaic function, also somehow to protect her virginity- as if she were afraid of letting herself go resp. being deconsecrated and 2) her connection to the initiation of Western philosophy and science for that she still somehow stands and that "she" influenced since it got major impulses from her city Athens (and the platonic academia etc): dont you think that some of its shortcomings (like being quite intellect-logic and scripture based) as well as some of its great advantages (as the author maybe supported) can also be brought in connection to her (at least to her modern (in your words Minervan) mythology? Or are such theories too unscientific or speculative/occult in your view?

I agree with you in the sense that if Ancient Greece was the cradle of Western civilization, then Rome was its childhood. The Virgin Goddess image, I think ... it can be seen as being afraid ... now that you brought it up, it explains why Schearer was so careful to present Athene as active, as weaver-creator; that is, the virginity itself is not so much as something vulnerable to be protected so much as the protective mechanism. It sounds 180, but that was one of the things I had to turn around in my head before Athene-as-active-feminine made sense. So Athene appears to be using her father's Aegis to protect her virginity (consequence of the sky gods meeting the earth goddess culture, merging together to form the ancient Greek culture), a virginity that implies passive-feminine-imagery ... drawing attention away from Athene-the-active-feminine energy. All of this being Zeus's idea. Once he ate Metis, of course :-)

Then again, in the excerpt I have way, way below of Athene's origins, there are themes that contradict what I said above, too.

When I read the passage about Pandora, I had already read elsewhere from Joseph Campbell explaining the Pandora story as the curse and blessing of a beautiful woman. That clicked for me. That Athene co-created Pandora, gave her the box, then told her not to open it

Well, anyway, the thing about the triple Goddess image sounds exciting to me- it would be interesting what her sources were for that...got any links? (Im unfortunately severed from my library right now out of personal circumstances)Hmmm. The sources I got was from her book specifically. Here, I'll excerpt the passage:

Transformations, transistions -- as in matter itself so in the relationships of the material world, and of the world of the gods as well. That work of changing, developing, moving things on which is so much Athene's she got in her maternal inheritance. Great-grandmother Gaia, Earth herself, was first distraught and finally enraged when her son-lover Uranus the starry sky kept stuffing their offspring back into her womb because he was so terrified that one would displace him. At last she drew from her own flesh a hunk of metal and fashioned it into a sharp sickle. Of all her many children, only Cronus dared what she asked of them; he cut off his father's genitals and threw them into the sea. So he came to power in his turn. And so, in time, the pattern started again. Earth's suffering was lived once more by her daughter Rhea, sister-wife to Cronus, who had to endure his swallowing each of their newborn children. Finally Gaia spirited Rhea away to safety in Crete to be delivered of Zeus and old Cronus asked no questions when they gave him the latest swaddled bundle, but simply gulped it down, not realizing that he was smacking his lips, this time, over a stone. Well, we know that Zeus overcame father Cronus in his turn, but let's remember too that it was MEtis who mixed up a special emetic for him to give the old man that he sicked up each of those earlier bundles -- Hera, Demeter, Hestia, Hades, Poseidon, all blinking and stretching into the light. So the Olympain order wouldn't have got started if it hadn't been for Metis's willingness to lend it her skill. It wouldn't have continued either, if Athene in her turn hadn't shown Zeus where to find the herb of immortality without which the new gods could not have defended themselves against the giants. (Shearer, p 26)Pandora, the All-Giving: this is one of the titles of Rhea, Zeus's own mother, daughter of Gaia herself. Pandora's other name, Anesidora, means 'she who bestows gifts from below'. Whatever else is going on, once more the ancient feminine is brought into the very citadel of masculine pride. Once again the parents are Athene and Hephaestus. And just as Pandora is at the base, the foundation even, of Athene's image in the Parthenon, so was the birth of Erichthonius commemorated on the base of the statues of both god and goddess in Hephaestus's own temple that overlooks the market-place at the foot of the Acropolis hill.

Four children 'unnature' in their birth: Pandora, Erichthonius, Athene and Hephaestus (for Hera had him in the old parthenogenic way in retaliation for Zeus's brainchild). Two created from Earth herself: Erichthonius, the product of passion, from her womb, Pandora, the product of technical skill, from her substance. Two created from the heavens, yet with their own earth natures, too: Athene through her mother Metis, Hephaestus through his foster-mother Thetis, who reared him under the sea and taught him his trade when Hera, in disgust at his lameness, threw him out of Olympus. Four is the number of completion, and something has come together here in these multiple relations of masculine and feminine at patriarchy's center. (p 36)One of Athene's paradoxes is that we know both precisely where she came from and not at all. Even the precision of that birth from her father's head is contested. The Libyans swear that she is water-born -- the daughter not of Zeus but of Poseidon and the Tritonian Lake, as anyone can see from those grey-green eyes, the very colour of her father's. They say she was found there, on the lake shore (it wasn't just Moses ho had that sort of beginning!) by the three nytmphs of Libya, who nurtured her and brought her up. Herodotus the historian backs up this tale. If you want proof, he says, just take a loo at that aegis she wears: it is exactly like the working gear of any Libyan woman, 'except that their leather garments are fringed with thongs, not serpents'.

So it was her father from whom she won the rule of Athens -- a new twist to that old tale of parent-child hostility after all! Or was it? Some say that aegis of hers means something quite different: that her father was actually a hairy winged giant called Pallas, and that after he tried to rape her -- the old goat! -- she didn't just kill him but skinned him too, and wore his hairy goatskin for ever after. Well, certainly the goddess is also and often known as Pallas Athene, or even simply Pallas. But would she have wanted to carry for ever the sign of such a horror, such intrusive violence? Others claim that Pallas was actually the name of her dearest playmate in those youthful Libyan days, and that the name attests to that, meaning no more -- and no less -- than 'maiden' and maybe 'tough maiden' at that. And that one day as they were horsing around, these tough young girls, things got a bit too rought, a bit out of hand, and that by a dreadful accident she killed the girl. And that for ever after, heartbroken, she bore the name herself, and even put up that great temple of hers, the Palladium of Troy, as a memorial to the person sh'd loved best in the world. (And for ever devoted herself, we might add, such are the effects of childhood trauma, to trying to repair that first and terrible damage she'd inflicted, by working to moderate the use of force, to conquer undisciplined violence -- as Ares could angrily attest.)

So wherever did Athene come from? Plato opted for the Libyan claim: he thought she was originally their goddess, but that there, as later in Egypt, she was called Neith. Others have since agreed. His version, they reckon, clears up the fundamental puzzle of her name -- which certainly isn't Greek, but may, as the city name Athens itself, derive from the Egyptian Ht Nt, meaning the temple, or house, of Neith. Or did she come first from Minoan Crete, where an inscription in Linear B script from the palace at Knossos make reference to Atana Potinija, meaning 'Mistress of At(ha)ana'? Or maybe she first appeared in Mycenae, as warrior and defneder of the citadel, later bringing the olive tree which figures on so many Mycenaean seals as her particular gift to Athens. Or maybe again this is all too literal, too fixed to time and place, and she was in her origins a personification of one of the great elemental forces of air, earth, water or thunder, given a form and a name which means simply 'the goddess' - A Thea.

We are talking about an archetypal energy here, and there can be no final knowing of where archetypes have their beginnings. 'It seems to me,' as Jung says, 'that their origins can only be explained by assuming them to be deposits of the constantly repeated experience of humanity' -- and each age and each culture will give its own image to what is finally unknowable. What we can say is that in those differing stories of Athene's origins there is a thread which has to do with a tension between the feminine and the masculine powers, and that the goddess -- in her battling against the rape by her maybe-father Pallas, in her return to the feminine society by that Libyan lake, in her honouring of the girl Pallas -- has an allegiance to feminine ways which the later story of her birth from her father Zeus's head directly challenges. And we can say too that in this bewilderment of theogenies ther eis a strong energy to which somehow Athene is heir, an elemental energy of air, earth, water or thunder. The image in that Trojan temple was a great sacred stone, its origin so mysterious that it was said it had been hurled from the heavens. The very name Palladium, it's said, means 'sky-fallen' -- and we remember that even under the reign of the sky-god Zeus, Athene alone had access to her now-father's thunderbolts. And maybe too that energy can be found in a place far more intimate: some say that what Pallas really means is 'throbbing', 'pulsating' -- and that Athene takes the epithet from her rescuing of Dionysus's still-throbbing, still-living heart after his dismemberment by the Titans, so that father Zeus could sew this vital organ together with the other bits into his thigh and render the new god twice-born to bring his energy to the world.

So where does that energy come from, that throbbing, pulsating, thunderbolting, earthy, watery, airy energy that is also Athene's own? The fact that the question can't ever have a final answer doesn't stop us from trying to find it. (pp 41-43)
So the goddess in one of her bird epiphanes hovers over Rome. But such echoes of her ancient beginnings have been getting fainter for a long while now. Perhaps her essence was brought from Troy in the mysterious image of the Palladium. But by the time she arrived in Rome and for long before, she was already Minerva. The very name denotes a shift in what humans perceived of this archetypal force. Athene may, as we have seen, be a version of Ht Nt, of House of Neith, or it may mean simply A Thea -- the Goddess. Minerva derives from mens, mind: already one aspect of that rich and complex energy that was iamged as Athene has become emphasized at the expense of others. (p 75)
Unfortunately, I don't know of any internet resources with this much crammed into one place. Hopefully, the above have enough keywords and interconnections that you can check it up. I didn't type up all the excerpts that addresses some of your questions, such as Athene's influlence on Athens. There were several passages approprated to that in Shearer's book. Because I don't want to type up the first five or six chapters, I highly recommend the book ... at least the first half of it. I havn't finished the second half to give it a yay or nay, other than that I have a difficult time reading it. I devoured the first half.

-Qaexl

[Kuroyagi]

No this is sufficient. Sources wont be needed since the author herself freely admits that she is speculating on the various versions of the myth and on varying local interpretations...

I myself have another method: I rather concentrate on the facts, but at first dont construct an individual core persona of Athene that then is subject to changes over the centuries (cause this supposes too much- underneath one could eg see the theory of her having an unchanging soul etc.): rather I would look at the eg Greek and Roman and archaic and modern interpretations seperately and then one can well see how this image changed over time...

Basically I maybe have a different take on the whole issue since I for myself wouldnt make so much differences between male/female to begin with. (In practical life this has been successful for me too). As I said: the very primal dieties and those who are of high status either are androgynic or always have also a female side in themselves anyway...(like you have too if you are male: and this is what this thread is aiming at anyway)

I do think, too that many of those myths were influenced by earlier "fertility" and also mother cults but I dont think that a negative interpretation of the development (like: from golden to bronze etc age) is necessary. Rather I could for example see that the elder cults were life-assertive even in their death-aspect (which was not seen as something so negative but part of life): for example there was a great mother of the animals that went underground in the winter- now, in spring a young man (sacrifice or a shaman and also god-husband (pareidros) etc) had to go into the cave and/or the underworld to free those animals or to make wedding with the goddess- this only as an example.

What I would do now with this info is that I would rather try to make use of this positive take on "religion" for my own life and practice instead of constructing a theory that did more than explaining the influence of elder cults on the Greek myths in that it would also put a (20th century) modern stamp on it in form of: she got raped, death is something bad, or the female became suppressed by the male aspect (also in my experience the non-mythical construction of a soap opera story (meaning equaling the motivations of the Gods with those of humans) often doesnt work so well)...but the same I would do with the Greek image(s) and the various differing ones in the mythological tales: and ask myself: how does this relate to my life (thats what myhts are there for, also in my opinion: as a helpful examples or as possibilities for making decisions- something that should be reinterpreted on a strictly personal level.)

Its a bit difficult to explain, but I tried to exempilfy my method with this- hope its not too off-topic, but I did this so that you can contrast it with the quoted texts. (I read them with interest, and they inspired me- so thanks.)

[Qaexl]

I do think, too that many of those myths were influenced by earlier "fertility" and also mother cults but I dont think that a negative interpretation of the development (like: from golden to bronze etc age) is necessary.

The negative image is part of the positive. I've come to celebrate them both, even before reading Shearer's book. It is in the same kind of duality as the male-female one. Joseph Campbell had the understanding that whether you see the universe-creator as male or you see the universe-creator as female significantly changes how you see life and act in life; and that heroes who can transcend the boundaries of their known culture eventually reconcile the two images. But the duality in some contexts makes a difference even in other ... contextlessness doesn't.

The publisher's description of Shearer is that of a Jungian analyst; what seems like speculation isn't exactly. Going deep, at some point, the facts get in the way. I've noticed constructs in these days like:

Myth: blah blah blah
Fact: Well, actually it is ...

as if fact is necessarily equated with Truth.

-Qaexl

[Kuroyagi]

Surely not- and I hope you dont believe that I wanted to imply this with my post. :)

Cause practically I have reinterpreted many myths myself and drawn their parallels to my life and conversed with Gods too but I cant presuppose this knowledge when conversing with others about the myths in general...

Jung is a good scholar and enjoyable to read but he is not the authority on myths (yet on psychology to an extent of course, which cant be holistic like e.g. life or ones magical path itself): in my opinion those are the poets.

p.s. actually when thinking about it I have never seen the universe in relation to any creator at all...[also in Greek myth its very vague: Chaos. [the poet could have also written: glbgl, or: go ask your dad! or whatever] ) :mwink: (cool monkeys!). I hope you dont think that Im polemic or something- Im just stating my HO...

Btw Qaexl, my friend I have found this page on Greek mythology (due to my present lack of books); it seems to be pretty good and comprehensive...http://www.theoi.com/

[Qaexl]

Btw Qaexl, my friend I have found this page on Greek mythology (due to my present lack of books); it seems to be pretty good and comprehensive...http://www.theoi.com/

Cool! This should be useful.

Though I'm dipping in the Eastern stuff these days, so I'll keep this in mind when it swings back around to the Greek myths.

-Qaexl

[nK.CCC]

Hey, Im new to this site, and Im from Sweden, so dont mind my English (my first post ! <3)

I dont know if this post is irrelevant or not but, I see those "spiderwebs" when I look at "lights" and concentrate, I almost look cross eyed (to see it), and thats when I see the "spiderweb" and the "snowflake" formations etc. Sometimes, they take the shape of something I cant explain with words =)

Also, I can zoom in and out (make the formation bigger/smaller, I cant control it 2 good tho)

[Kain]

Hello nK.CCC, welcome to Abrahadabra Forums.

Yes, they can appear in such cases. You should practice it with a low level of lighting though for best effects, as when in very well lit areas one may perceive internal effects of the eye's lens instead. Also, the best of techniques I've ever found for viewing subtle space is by extended relaxation of the eye itself and all it's internal muscles, a technique harder to master but certainly worth it in the long run. Scrying a black surface or mirror can induce this effect relatively easily...

Kain

[nK.CCC]

Hello nK.CCC, welcome to Abrahadabra Forums.

Yes, they can appear in such cases. You should practice it with a low level of lighting though for best effects, as when in very well lit areas one may perceive internal effects of the eye's lens instead. Also, the best of techniques I've ever found for viewing subtle space is by extended relaxation of the eye itself and all it's internal muscles, a technique harder to master but certainly worth it in the long run. Scrying a black surface or mirror can induce this effect relatively easily...

Kain


Hm, I got most parts of what you said but, the part about scrying a black surface or mirror to induce the effect? didnt get that one :D

[Apopheros]

Can you guys extend on what you do to see the light pattern? Do you just cross your eyes and it appears? Humm, I've heard about people seeing what they called grids. What sort of light are you looking at?

Welcome on the site and great avatar nk:thumbsup:

[nK.CCC]

Can you guys extend on what you do to see the light pattern? Do you just cross your eyes and it appears? Humm, I've heard about people seeing what they called grids. What sort of light are you looking at?

Welcome on the site and great avatar nk:thumbsup:

What Im doing is, I look at the light (could be the little light next to the power button on ur computer screen or w/e, actually when Im trying it now its kinda weak, but it works, try it on a streetlight, or at a car light or something more powerful, not too powerful tho :D) and when Im about to go cross eye'd I kinda stop moving the eyes, I never go totally cross eye'd, I guess it depends on whos trying it but I dont have to move my eye's too much, when things get blurry - stop moving the eyes, and focus on the light, and hopefully you'll see the grids, also Im not doing the whole cross eye'd thing looking down on the nose, I focus on the light instead of the nose, so I guess you could say that the right pupil should point to West and the left pupil should point to East, instead of them both pointing to S (the nose - crosseyed)

So just focus on the light, and start moving the eye's to West and East and things should get blurry - dont look DOWN at your nose, keep the focus on the light and you should see the grids. The zooming is just all about your distance between the eye's, the more you move them to West / East the bigger they get, and when you move them away from eachother (like going back from being cross-eyed), the less you see the grids.
I hope that I made some sense, probably not, but hey, its late and Im really tired so I blame it on that :D

Thanks for welcoming me :) Are you a fan of The CCC aswell :D?