Kuji-in and Kuji-kiri (Ninpo invokations)

[Qaexl]

Back on OF, this thread invariably comes up: "what the hell are those crazy ninja doing with the mudra and chanting?" followed by, "I want to learn, someone teach me."

I'm not sure of this information myself, and the following information has not been fact-checked for historical accuracy. These are working notes, and not all of it translated yet. From what I understand, kuji-in are the individual seals (mudra) which are learned seperately to invoke specific states of mind, then chained together. Kuji-kiri are cuts made, similar I imagine to the cuts made when inscribing a banishing pentagram in the air or on paper. Each cut is done with an invokation to the in related to that. The whole thing works out as a grid. There may also be a further association with the 3x3 magic square.

Recently, I had found the Chinese hanzi for the nine-word invokation. This is, 九字真言 (jiu zi zhen wen, Nine Characters (of) True Words, or perhaps, Nine Characters (of) Power Words). Following this, I found some online pages about 九字真言手印, 手印 being "hand seal" or mudra.

http://www.v4uu.com/blog/article.asp?id=343
http://blog.zandwich.com/?p=62

http://hiddenstorehouse.com/somatic_way/images/7/74/%E4%B9%9D%E5%AD%97%E7%9C%9F%E8%A8%80%E6%89%8B%E5%8 D%B0-2.jpg

And below are my half-ass translation. I translated these to understand them as much as to translate them; some may disagree with the translation, and I invite comments on them. I will edit this post as I translate more of the characters.

The Chinese description here are very easy for me to translate, when compared with the I-Ching, Art of War, or Tao Te Ching. Those three older texts are written in Old Chinese, practically another language. This leads me to believe that these descriptions are modern descriptions, though they make sense. If someone has an older, source text, I would be happy to see it. I do find it interesting though, that what I came up with here differs from some of the English descriptions floating around. It may be because I don't know that much about these specific invocation. However, many of these states are useful to me, and seems fairly universal teachings.

臨 （りん）(lin) Imminent

身心穩定 Body and heart, secure and determined

表示臨事不動容 Demonstrates "imminent", without (premature) action.
保持不動不惑的意志 Protect and hold; no action, no confusion in intent (yi) and will.
表現堅強的體魄 Projects (the) solid image of powerful guts and courage.

結合天地靈力 Unite and harmonize the supernatural force of Heaven and Earth
降三世三昧耶會 Touch three worlds to three concealed questions.
手印：獨鈷印 Mudra: ?
咒語：金剛薩埵心咒 Mantra: ?

Commentary: Think of all those fighting anime characters, "I must get stronger!" No hesitation, no halfway measure. Bruce Lee asked, how hard can you punch if you did not worry about breaking your hands?

兵 （びょう）(bing) Foot-soldier
能量 Ability (to) measure
表示延壽和 Demonstrates extending longevity with
返童的生命力 reverting (to) virginity: the power of birth and destiny.

行動快速如鏢 Move (as) fast (as) spear-point.
降三世羯摩會 Touch three worlds castrated-ram rubbing.

手印：大金剛輪姦 Mudra:
咒語：降三世明王心咒 Mantra:

Commentary: The length of a spear measures the life (destiny) of a person; the spear point thrusts out into the future. Return like a child (virginity), like the castration of a ram.

鬥 （とう）(dou) Struggle (Warriors raising weapon)
宇宙共鳴 Universe, Singing-Together (resonance)

勇猛果敢 (Be) brave (and) fierce, resolute (and) courageous,
遭遇困難 (when) encountering exhaustive-constraints (and) disasters,
反湧出鬥志的表現 rather than pouring forth (the) expression of ambitious struggle.

統合一切困難 United (and) harmonious, at one with exhaustive-constraints and disasters.
理趣會 Need and desire meet.
手印：外獅子印 Mudra:
咒語：金剛薩埵法身咒 Mantra:

Commentary: Duality. Joyfully meet those that oppose you, for in that struggle is the harmony of the universe, opposing forces reuniting once more.

者（しゃ）(zhe) Person, Thing
復原 Returning (to the) Origin

表現自由支配 Expresses the power to freely allocate
自己軀體和 one's own body and
別人軀體的力量 others' bodies.

萬物之靈力 (The) ten thousand manifestations of supernatural force
任我接洽 allows me (to) meet and negotiate.
一印會 One seal meets.

手印：內獅子印 Mudra
咒語：金剛薩埵降魔咒 Mantra

Commentary: The universe is holographic, the One in Many Bodies.

皆（かい）(jie) Empathy

危機感應 Danger sense (Danger and Opportunity).

表現知人心 Expresses (the) knowing (of) human nature,
操運人心的能力 ability to motivate people's hearts.

解開一切困擾 (With) one slice, cut the Gordian Knot.
四印會 Four seals meet.

手印：外縛印 Mudra
咒語：金剛薩埵普賢法身咒 Mantra

Commentary: People and individuals harbor fear and doubt like the Gordian Knot. Like Alexander with his mother's sword, cut swiftly and move an entire nation.

Translation Notes:

* 感應 translates as "sense" as in empathy -- 應 suggests the image of "the heart of birds flocking together". In this context, "Danger Sense" refers to groups, not just danger to oneself.
* 操運 literally means to "drill"/"manage" the "troops in movement". Although translated in the more sterile English word, "motivate", this is laced with military leadership.
* 困擾 idiomatically means trouble, of the worry kind one keeps close to the heart. The whole expression sounds like the story of Alexander and the Gordian Knot reached into the East.

陣 （じん）

心電感應/隱身
表示集富庶與敬愛於一身的能力。
透視、洞察敵人心理──────供養會
手印：內縛印
咒語：蓮花生大士六道金剛咒

列 （れつ）

時空控制
表示救濟他人的心。
分裂一切阻礙自己的障礙──────微細會
手印：智拳印
咒語：大日如來心咒

在 （ざい）

五元素控制
表示更能自由自在地運用超能力。
使萬物均為平齊──────三昧耶會
手印：日輪姦
咒語：大日如來心咒

前 （ぜん）

光明/佛心
表示佛境，即超人的境界。
我心即禪，萬化冥合──────根本成身會
手印：寶瓶印（或隱形印）
咒語：摩利支天心咒

(Archive (http://hiddenstorehouse.com/somatic_way/index.php/%E4%B9%9D%E5%AD%97%E7%9C%9F%E8%A8%80%E6%89%8B%E5%8 D%B0-2))

-Qaexl

[1000ShadesofGrey]

3 of those mudras are used in Raku Key for healing. Some Reiki Masters of "tibetan" lineage also teach them to third level students.
here are some further info : http://web.archive.org/web/20010505054645/angelreiki.nu/mudras/rakukai.htm

[The Tengu]

In ninjutsu, there are far more important things than making mudra with your hands.

One of the signs that someone has "gotten it" in ninjutsu is when the student realizes on their own* that everyhing they are doing physically in their martial art is a mudra. Every stance, posture, strike, and movement is a mudra. Mastery of the techniques leads to each stance, posture, strike and movement becoming imperceptible from one another.

In this regard, mudra are eventually no big deal. When the student realizes that, all that pretty sign language becomes pretty useless.


*And by on their own, I mean the student did not just read some post on some website and quote it verbatim.

[Qaexl]

In ninjutsu, there are far more important things than making mudra with your hands.

One of the signs that someone has "gotten it" in ninjutsu is when the student realizes on their own* that everyhing they are doing physically in their martial art is a mudra. Every stance, posture, strike, and movement is a mudra.

Budo taijtusu as mudra? Natural expression of Right Action? Really!? No way ...

I think that's a "duh" thing for most occultist. The point of the above was a publication of a possible original source -- not likely as the Chinese syntax is modern rather than ancient. The general audience on this forum tend to be fairly advanced, observant, and involved in a variety of traditions. I imagine most of the serious ninpo students are off training rather than checking this site out. I don't claim to be serious or a ninpo student.

-Qaexl

[Naomi]

In ninjutsu, there are far more important things than making mudra with your hands.

One of the signs that someone has "gotten it" in ninjutsu is when the student realizes on their own* that everyhing they are doing physically in their martial art is a mudra. Every stance, posture, strike, and movement is a mudra. Mastery of the techniques leads to each stance, posture, strike and movement becoming imperceptible from one another.

In this regard, mudra are eventually no big deal. When the student realizes that, all that pretty sign language becomes pretty useless.


*And by on their own, I mean the student did not just read some post on some website and quote it verbatim.


Franz Bardon uses a technique similar to the hand gestures which is optional. He uses as simply a learning vehicle for students to invoke a spell. He also claimed that Eastern schools taught hand gestures as a means of connecting the school together to call on the collective power of the tradition, although to outsiders of the school, they would be completely useless. There was a mention of misuse of this technique, possibly I think in reference to the Nazi salute.


Truly it's merely conditioning the mind to accept quick shortcuts to mindsets. I've never had the need for them though.

I feel my mind reacting to the poses my body takes up, mostly from conditioning...two decades of watching television, observing North American and European human body language and being an animal lover.

Certain body positions and maybe hand gestures to a lesser extent have a connection to the human collective unconscious.

For instance, thumbs up here in North America means "Good job" or "I like this"

In ancient Rome it signalled for the gladiator to end the life of his opponent by the crowd..."daggers up".

We're in love with action and morbidness here, so this makes sense.

Intricate finger gestures are too cumbersome and advertise themselves too loudly for my way, and on a closing note:

"focus on the future for 50%, on the present for 40%, and on the past for 10%"

- Masaaki Hatsumi

Good thoughts though, Ten, you get a thumbs up from me! Don't mind the people in the bleachers, they're only human!

http://www.thetengu.com/police_verso.jpg
Police Verso
Jeane-Leone Gerome
1872

[The Tengu]

Budo taijtusu as mudra? Natural expression of Right Action? Really!? No way ...

I think that's a "duh" thing for most occultist. The point of the above was a publication of a possible original source -- not likely as the Chinese syntax is modern rather than ancient. The general audience on this forum tend to be fairly advanced, observant, and involved in a variety of traditions. I imagine most of the serious ninpo students are off training rather than checking this site out. I don't claim to be serious or a ninpo student.

-Qaexl
And like most occultists, you think too much.

[The Tengu]

Intricate finger gestures are too cumbersome and advertise themselves too loudly for my way, and on a closing note:

"focus on the future for 50%, on the present for 40%, and on the past for 10%"

- Masaaki HatsumiYou will also notice that Hatsumi Sensei never uses stances.

The only exception is if he is making a point for people who still need stances, which is practically everyone.

Or if he is posing for a photo. :D

[Naomi]

No I never noticed that actually.

What's the reason for it?

I want to ask what is the perspective in Ninjutsu between the physical and the mental? Is there little or no difference between them?

[The Tengu]

No I never noticed that actually.

What's the reason for it? It is because stances are strong.I want to ask what is the perspective in Ninjutsu between the physical and the mental? Is there little or no difference between them?You can not have a mental aspect without a physical aspect, and you damn sure can't control the physical aspect without a mental aspect. They are rather interconnected.

Hardware, BIOS, software. You understand.

Eventually, a there comes a time when you stop thinking about what you're doing, and you stop doing what you are thinking.

This is no-mind time. Mushin.

A lot of people talk about it. Hell, people do it all the time when they're meditating. Sitting. In one spot. Comfortably.

But that's not what I'm typing about.

[Qaexl]

And like most occultists, you think too much.

You make some pretty big assumptions there.

You don't even know what I do. Honestly, what you write is worse than what I typically see on Bullshido. At least people who talk tough there can physically demonstrate skills; but who can prove the ineffable?

-Qaexl

[The Tengu]

You make some pretty big assumptions there.

You don't even know what I do. Honestly, what you write is worse than what I typically see on Bullshido. At least people who talk tough there can physically demonstrate skills; but who can prove the ineffable?

-Qaexllol

[Kuroyagi]

In my view mudras and hand gestures and all this stuff has also another side to it. Of course we can study the traditions and read about them but one day I stood there (in my life and in the world) and wasnt thinking about anything special. but out of mere fun I tried out some hand gesture that expressed my feeling of that specific moment. It was something like those Indian Buddhas or gods do, too. I had one hand- palm open- pointing to the ground and the other one- thumb and ring finger joined, palm pointing outwards and the other fingers outstretched- pointing towards my head or even further above. This somehow expressed my being at that moment.

but that moment passed and i couldnt remember the exact position of my fingers anymore- or: the positions, yes, but not all there was to it. it was weird. one minute ago I had it and the next I couldnt do it "correctly" anymore. meaning that I could reproduce it but it didnt feel right anymore.

that was strange.

[Kuroyagi]

hmm- yet theres the other side of it. its the old yogic teaching that is often referred to as "fake it till you make it" nowadays. If I will force myself to smile or laugh then I will eventually truely begin to laugh. I think thats how those gestures should also be used.

[Kain]

hmm- yet theres the other side of it. its the old yogic teaching that is often referred to as "fake it till you make it" nowadays. If I will force myself to smile or laugh then I will eventually truely begin to laugh. I think thats how those gestures should also be used.I think that mudras have, in fact, an objective influence upon the nervous system when properly conducted, an influence that also manages to effectively reach to the mental and emotional faculties of oneself, since the body and mind are so closely related. It is a subtle effect however, one that requires a sufficiently clear system of nadis (subtle channels or "nerves") in order to be successfully conducted and perceived. Due to this reason, mudras are usually practiced only after a certain amount of physical purification has taken place (through diet, specific excercise etc).

Having said this, I was actually surprised with the "objective" accuracy of mudras since the mere physical gesture (after the said purification had taken place and the effect could actually clearly take place in my system) managed to cause me some quite intense sensations and even slight burns in the past. I suppose it can be still argued by some that the whole process was one of elaborate auto-suggestion that actually did fake it till it made it, but my personal opinion is that it is a set of practices that are deeply rooted in objectivity, or at least as much objectivity as we can say we can possess in the occult field.

Kain

[Zaii]

The real hilarity in this thread is the association of the word "ninjutsu" with the word "reality".

Anyway......as far as mudras of any kind go, in my experience some do have a neurophysiological effect, but most are the equivalent of putting on a costume to get in character, in and of themselves, they don't really do anything.

[Naomi]

The real hilarity in this thread is the association of the word "ninjutsu" with the word "reality".

Did someone delete the post you're referring to or am I just missing it?

[Kuroyagi]

The real hilarity in this thread is the association of the word "ninjutsu" with the word "reality".

Anyway......as far as mudras of any kind go, in my experience some do have a neurophysiological effect, but most are the equivalent of putting on a costume to get in character, in and of themselves, they don't really do anything.
Its like a sensei dan martial artist who dresses up in a Peter Pan costume. the costume doesnt make him weaker, it makes him stronger cause it will make him look ridiculous. Why bother with reality anyway? (cause its fun!) :laugh: in my opinion its utterly senseless to talk about martial arts online at all. theres only one place to do that and thats in the physical- (dojo or wherever you fight)...so its impossible to prove or disprove ninjutsu or any other art here by physical means. but still the conecpt of it can be used as a meme or an idea or as some sort of romantic ideal, for magic and art, and why not? this is what it can be used for here, too.

one of modern occultisms downsides is its endless prejuidice about what works and what not. "mudras dont work or work "only as"..."..fuck that. who has asked "does the mona lisa "Work?" who has asked: does beethovens symphonies work?...yeah- please only listen to them after "some extreme cleansing exercises" else they wont work and you wont feel anything. "I can guarantee you that."

Thats how many occultists and modern martial artists talk..why anyone should listen to them is beyond me.

[Kain]

one of modern occultisms downsides is its endless prejuidice about what works and what not. "mudras dont work or work "only as"..."..fuck that. who has asked "does the mona lisa "Work?" who has asked: does beethovens symphonies work?...yeah- please only listen to them after "some extreme cleansing exercises" else they wont work and you wont feel anything. "I can guarantee you that."

Thats how many occultists and modern martial artists talk..why anyone should listen to them is beyond me.Actually, I think it would make quite some sense to discuss whether Mona Lisa or Beethoven's symphonies work, as despite "personal taste" we are still functioning in a system where the multiformity of things communicates the essential properties of Mind/Consciousness in varying degrees of veiling. Sure, different things may work from person to person due to their varying standpoints, but that does not in any way overrule the fact that there are varying yet objective modes of clarity in different forms of expression. What utilizes that clarity to communicate it's essence, is the transcendental aspect (which can also not be bypassed, in all honesty, from one's judgement of the situation). Thus, it makes quite a lot of sense to discuss the objective clarity of the Form that those mediums of communication use (be they paintings, musical compositions etc) , as long as we also keep in mind the fact that our personal approach to that material will make it's usefulness slightly variable due to our objective standpoints. Objective quality does in fact make a fully real aspect of how things function I beleive, and it would be an error not to accept that.

The viewpoint of absolute subjectivism towards reality is rather an escapist tactic of it's aspects of essentially hard, solid truth I think...Sure, "make what you like of it" essentially occurs in all our fields of perception, but that is due to our biased outlook rather than the fact that there is no objective structure/hierarchy underscoring reality. In fact, all common sense and perception of our findings so far does quite intensely hint at such an underscoring structure. Due to this point, discussing the objective efficiency of a model to communicate what lies behind it is quite a straightforward thing to do I think.

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

klaus kinski made a presentation about the new testament. it disagreed with many x-tians views in the audience and so it was becoming loud. so he called one man who disturbed him most on stage. the man said: "the real jesus would have been more modest and wouldnt have told his listeners to shut up but would have tried to convince them." thereupon kinski: "NO! THE REAL JESUS WOULD HAVE TAKEN A WHIP AND WHIPPED THE MANS ARSE." I think kinski was more jesus than the man.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veWe0WOKyA4

you make some good points kain, let me come back to you. im not for outright subjectivity either.

[Kuroyagi]

The viewpoint of absolute subjectivism towards reality is rather an escapist tactic of it's aspects of essentially hard, solid truth I think...

basically I think that the moderns are enslaved to the (pseudo) scientific paradigm too much. ideally its not about objective truth and not about subjective truth either but more about context- about communication between "you and me". the objectivity paradigm is too corrupting. every human has to sell its soul to it...or lets say: the temptation to do so is normally too strong to resist.

[Kuroyagi]

I dont mean to throw all my rationality over board, either.

objectivity is good, but also people who do not know the terms nadi or bindu or whatever CAN have those experiences, too. so youre right: "objectivity" serves this function of making oneself understood. yet we shant forget that also terms like "gods" and "energy" are only place-holders.

about the artworks: there really is a pseudo public dictate in the arts as there always was. some ppl tell others what they ought to like and whats not so good and the stupid or indifferent ppl will swallow it cause they have no time or courage to look for themselves. thats why I think that "subjectivity" is undervalued in the power-circles of todays world. and I would rather see more creative occultism than more a dogmatic one, simply because between magicians and occultists I would expect a higher percentage of self-aware individuals as average who let the art come to them "just as it is", instead of relying on public opinion. thats why I cant afford to trust AC or Spare or Buddha or masaaki hatsumi on hearsay alone. yet i can use them (as in Chaos magic), or rather: use their avataras and or public images, too, for magic. its quite tricky for sure.

I trust that I have a good aesthetic sense, hell, else I wouldnt hang out here. The abra system itself is so good in my view cause it 1) knows what does work (in a certain frame) and then 2) creatively mixes these elements to make them more powerful. this is the core concept of all powerful teachings. but there are more of them (not only one)...;)

[Kain]

basically I think that the moderns are enslaved to the (pseudo) scientific paradigm too much. ideally its not about objective truth and not about subjective truth either but more about context- about communication between "you and me". the objectivity paradigm is too corrupting. every human has to sell its soul to it...or lets say: the temptation to do so is normally too strong to resist.The narrow-minded approach towards objectivinsm does not influence true Objectivity's actual existance in any way. In fact, the narrow-minded approach is not even "objectivism" to begin with, as the person following or expressing it has lost a grip of the actual facts and their respective spectrum of phenomena by doing so. He/she negates actual aspects of reality by their conduct rather than negating fiction by "sticking to the facts". To adhere to what is objective is to adhere to what exists independantly of your acceptance or negation, to reality regardless of personal projections. This is a quite different approach from what the (pseudo) scientific paradigm offers, and thus remains forever unaffected by it, just like all Truth is always only "temporarily veiled" rather than contaminated by erroneous notions.

Due to this fact, I think that in order for actual communication to take place, it also needs to be rooted in Objectivity. Otherwise we are in the end only talking to ourselves while looking at each other's faces. We need to have an objective aspect we perceive to reffer to, one that although coated with our subjective projections still holds an independant and thus "real" existance that can serve as a landmark that is also perceived by the other person's subjectively coated impressions. Thus, an objective Truth can be communicated through a partially subjective outset.

Also, the temptation to adhere to the paradigm of "naive realism" or narrow-minded objectivism is strong only as long as one cannot or has difficulty seeing beyond it personally. Like all temptation, it is the part of us that is already adhering to it and is "game with it" that is tugging to us to follow it and stand completely under it's light. So no, I don't think it has any influence on the Way of things apart from serving as slightly annoying interferance.

Kain

[Kain]

objectivity is good, but also people who do not know the terms nadi or bindu or whatever CAN have those experiences, too. so youre right: "objectivity" serves this function of making oneself understood. yet we shant forget that also terms like "gods" and "energy" are only place-holders.That's a very good point Kuroyagi, and there's a quite big difference between dogma and Objectivity I think. All systems are essentially subjective...they all try to track an actually objective process however, that is also universal in nature (due to it's objectivity). One may reffer to a nadi and another to a path of the Tree of Life, yet, in fact, they are both referring to the same objective phenomenon of an energy conduit between two points. Names and forms (namarupa) are essential as long as we function in multiformity for communication to take place, but they are also essentially subjective to a degree. The point is that nadi, bindu and all other such connotations essentially map a process that takes place parallel and outside of their respective terminologies as systems. Thus, they manage to communicate an objective truth through a partially subjective outset, like I said earlier. Such a thing would not necessarilly occur with any subjective Form we utilised, however. Taking nadis and inverting their flows "just because we can, and all is subjective anyway" does have an actual effect on the system's course, that of fumbling it's function and destroying it's connection with the transcendental aspect. This is clearly felt through working with the system in that format (for instance try reconnecting the paths of the Tree of Life randomly and run it. It even hurts if you do it in a sufficiently focused way). This aspect of things, coupled with the fact so many different systems and models essentially manage to portray the same principles at work show us that systems are indeed wired to something much bigger than themselves and that their subjective terminology is actually hinting at a very real and objective Truth, that cannot be directly pointed to but can be indirectly described with increasing precision.

and I would rather see more creative occultism than more a dogmatic one, simply because between magicians and occultists I would expect a higher percentage of self-aware individuals as average who let the art come to them "just as it is", instead of relying on public opinion. This is related to what I said above.

thats why I cant afford to trust AC or Spare or Buddha or masaaki hatsumi on hearsay alone. That is commendable I think, as long as you manage to remain aware in your strive for reading between the lines that there is an objective "grid" on which we are functioning, and not extend the essential (varying) subjectivity of a set of systems to Reality itself.

Also, I think it was the historical Buddha who had said that one should not adhere to what is "said" unless one also has experience of it to some degree. So description can only take oneself so far, and from then on Instinct and Direct Experience lead the way for the realization of the Way of things. Trusting the "just as it is" sensation is in fact what this is all about...and following it is the prerequisite, as that is what will in fact eventually lead you to Objectivity.

creatively mixes these elements to make them more powerful. this is the core concept of all powerful teachings. but there are more of them (not only one)...;)Certainly so...and this is so powerful due to the fact that neither of them has absolutely managed to nail the essential process 100%. But there are variations to their percentage too, and that's where objective quality of a system's (or art form's etc) conveyance (of what their form represents) can be also applied. Coupling that with the partially subjective perception we inherently possess in our current form, this unlocks the whole puzzle I think...

Kain

[Edit]

Toshitsugu Takamatsu is considered to be

http://www.crystalinks.com/mar10takamatsubw.jpg
the "last combat ninja" by the Bujinkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan).
According to the Bujinkan, his family had both
samurai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai) class and ninja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja) roots.

Toshitsugu Takamatsu studied under various masters of several ryu,
and as a result, became the "only man ever to master all aspects of
ninjutsu".

When he was still a young man, Takamatsu gained his notoriety by "singlehandedly stopping a small riot".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshitsugu_Takamatsu

[Zaii]

Wow. At some point, the mona lisa was compared to mudras. I have no words to begin to approach that statement.

Takamatsu made claims to lineage in martial arts which were later found to be without ground, but he was a much harder fellow than his eventual descendents. What's ironic about the Bujinkan is they have such an emphasis against sparring, fighting, and generally truly testing your skills, yet their "founder" went around beating ass all the time.

Another absurd facet of the Bujinkan is their constant de-emphasis on strength and constant emphasis of "softness", which is a fantastic philosophical viewpoint, and as mentioned in another thread has been espoused at length in the Dao De Jing, but as far as physical fighting goes, you can't sit in one "mode" all the time and expect to prevail. This to me appears more as a safeguard against their techniques ever actually being pressure tested against (god forbid) a resisting opponent.

Naomi - No one specifically said "ninjutsu is reality", but it's being approached as if it's practical and effective for anything besides convincing yourself you're something you're not, which sadly with all incarnations of "ninjutsu" in the modern era is not the case.

[Edit]

YUNA ITO - Truth http://www.designchronicle.com/memento/images/PVs/yunaito/truth0111LG.jpg

- Truth - Truth - Truth

[Naomi]

No one specifically said "ninjutsu is reality", but it's being approached as if it's practical and effective for anything besides convincing yourself you're something you're not, which sadly with all incarnations of "ninjutsu" in the modern era is not the case.

Really well I agree with your assessment of the practicality of it, but it is interesting, and I don't know what you mean by it not being real. It's generally accepted that it did have roots in historical Japan, you can find several references in television and books.

I like the modern ninjutsu practitioners too, in the Bujinkan too. They teach good things and promote justice and friendliness especially considering they don't take part in sport events as a general principal. I think this is very good.

“I think that the day Japanese martial ways become sports will be the day they die. Sports emphasize the fun of winning and losing and even physical education is only a secondary concern. They are totally devoid of character training. This is not what martial arts are about. If the river of Japanese martial arts should ever flow into the ocean of sporting activities, it is sure to become polluted by salt water before it has flowed even one hundred yards.”

Minoru Mochizuki 1907 -2003, Founder of Yoseikan Budo


I think this has already come to pass. Even if you do not like something, it does not make it less real. If that were so, we would not have any problems in the world.

Another absurd facet of the Bujinkan is their constant de-emphasis on strength and constant emphasis of "softness", which is a fantastic philosophical viewpoint, and as mentioned in another thread has been espoused at length in the Dao De Jing, but as far as physical fighting goes, you can't sit in one "mode" all the time and expect to prevail. This to me appears more as a safeguard against their techniques ever actually being pressure tested against (god forbid) a resisting opponent. "You need to have ferociousness in a real fight!"

- Masaaki Hatsumi, Bujinkan Soke

This is true!

Zaii you did not spend very long in the Bujinkan and you are very embittered seeming about the experience. I do not think it is logical to presume you know what they are constantly saying.

Yet to take the point, water is soft, but it is very destructive. Isn't that interesting?

[Naomi]

one of modern occultisms downsides is its endless prejuidice about what works and what not. "mudras dont work or work "only as"..."..fuck that. who has asked "does the mona lisa "Work?" who has asked: does beethovens symphonies work?...yeah- please only listen to them after "some extreme cleansing exercises" else they wont work and you wont feel anything. "I can guarantee you that."

Thats how many occultists and modern martial artists talk..why anyone should listen to them is beyond me.


You are right Kuroyagi....I think they can be made to work. If they have some secret property pertaining to the meridians I can only guess at it, so it is probably best I not discuss this subject any further, as I will only find I have made a fool of myself 10-20 years in the future. :)

[Naomi]

The narrow-minded approach towards objectivinsm does not influence true Objectivity's actual existance in any way. In fact, the narrow-minded approach is not even "objectivism" to begin with, as the person following or expressing it has lost a grip of the actual facts and their respective spectrum of phenomena by doing so. He/she negates actual aspects of reality by their conduct rather than negating fiction by "sticking to the facts".

I saw this on television a few days ago by some jewish guy. I thought he was a televangelist at first but he was actually promoting world peace and religious freedom and speaking in a political context about the so-called spiritual crisis idea the Republicans use or misuse, as he put it, as a weapon. He was talking about how Scientism is the belief that the only thing that is real or absolute is that which you can recieve through sensory input. Which in itself is a religion, because the people inside of it cannot see that there is no proof that what you can sense is the only absolute truth!

[Zaii]

Zaii you did not spend very long in the Bujinkan and you are very embittered seeming about the experience. I do not think it is logical to presume you know what they are constantly saying.


I would suggest you take your own advice, given that you don't train at all and only read books about the subject.

How long should I have had to spend in a terrible school of martial arts to deem it terrible? Was a year not enough? Should it have been five, or ten? The day any one Bujinkan trained student comes forth and beats a real trained fighter, we can have this discussion all over again from the top, but until then, regardless of what I say you're not going to change your opinion or be open to the idea that maybe what you have so much stock in can't actually stand up to the test. I could point you towards former Bujinkan students and instructors who decry the system, or a current Bujinkan instructor who cross trains in BJJ and kickboxing and admits that the Bujinkan is "only for fun, and not of huge practical value", but you're not interested. So the only thing for me to do is wish you the best with it.

[Naomi]

Well you're mistaken, I do train. Or rather, deliberately mislead...

Yet in this time martial arts are not very practical at all...

You don't deny then that ninjutsu is historically documented?

[Zaii]

Well you're mistaken, I do train. Or rather, deliberately mislead...

Yet in this time martial arts are not very practical at all...

You don't deny then that ninjutsu is historically documented?

No one in the X-kans can trace their lineage back beyond their modern day founders in the majority of the schools they claim to instruct, and the Bujinkan has even invented one out of thin air.

The other "ninjutsu" schools in circulation have outright laughable gimmicks. I'm sure you've seen them. The guys standing out in the woods in full camo gis......etc.

You said, verbatim, in our last discussion, that you didn't train in anything. Either you mislead me then, or you've since taken up training, or are misleading me now.

[Naomi]

Well it's a bit of a play on words, Zaii....I'm sure you can figure it out...

I've seen a couple of photos of I think Haye's school back in the 80's wearing camo gi's but that fad has died down, taijutsu is just as respectable as any other school. I don't find them laughable - Ashida Kim is laughable....his books are hilarious!

The Bujinkan was formed out of several historical lineages - a conglomeration of many real traditions under an umbrella school. As for not being traceable...would you find it authentic that a system based on fighting that survived a Japan hostile to it would be anything but secretive? I would think not, but apparently you think that public records are a good idea in guerilla warfare...

I have been privy to the discussion of oral tradition in two native american tribes. There are over five hundred other nations like them int he United States, Canada and Mexico, and many others in South America. It is tradition to pass these teachings on secretively unless they get leaked - a rare occurrence today. They will die with the tribes. So from my perspective, it is not a stretch at all to believe that there are many secret traditions around the world in the many diasporas and unique cultures around the world.

What is 'thin air' anyways? In a universe populated by almost endless tiny oscillating strings, one has to wonder if this catch phrase has become a bit outdated.

[Zaii]

Right. So the "ninja" excuse is not only supposed to explain why the lineage can't be traced like every other respectable martial art, but it's also to explain away why the instruction sucks. That's mighty convenient. Whatever. I'm through talking about this. You're dead set on believing in the organization beyond any doubts actually fueled by evidence, including the testimony of the high ranking greek instructor I offered to you, to which you brought to bear the ultra-mature, "too long, didn't read" as an excuse. If you think the Bujinkan is so hot and can't be convinced otherwise, then by all means, continue to do whatever it is you do or don't do with them. I hope it works out for you.

[Okazaki Castle]

The real hilarity in this thread is the association of the word "ninjutsu" with the word "reality".


:rofl::laugh:

OC.

[Naomi]

Right. So the "ninja" excuse is not only supposed to explain why the lineage can't be traced like every other respectable martial art, but it's also to explain away why the instruction sucks. That's mighty convenient. Whatever. I'm through talking about this. You're dead set on believing in the organization beyond any doubts actually fueled by evidence, including the testimony of the high ranking greek instructor I offered to you, to which you brought to bear the ultra-mature, "too long, didn't read" as an excuse. If you think the Bujinkan is so hot and can't be convinced otherwise, then by all means, continue to do whatever it is you do or don't do with them. I hope it works out for you.


It wasn't an excuse, it was long, and boring! :(

Zaii you strike me as one who is a contradiction in terms: bright and hopeful towards the magic and secret possibilities of the universe denied by humanity, yet at the same time, bitter, distrustful and jaded by a world which has taught you that nothing is what it seems...and quick to hang 'em high at the first sign of murky waters...

In other words, you seem scared, which is also disjointed because you hate that idea...you hate it so much you hate anyone who reminds you of it...


;)

[Zaii]

It wasn't an excuse, it was long, and boring! :(

Zaii you strike me as one who is a contradiction in terms: bright and hopeful towards the magic and secret possibilities of the universe denied by humanity, yet at the same time, bitter, distrustful and jaded by a world which has taught you that nothing is what it seems...and quick to hang 'em high at the first sign of murky waters...

In other words, you seem scared, which is also disjointed because you hate that idea...you hate it so much you hate anyone who reminds you of it...


;)

That's cute. What does your opinion of my psyche have to do with the fact that you can't come up with anything to challenge the factual information about the Bujinkan beyond just your opinion? I have this crazy idea about "staying on topic".

[Radiant Star]

It wasn't an excuse, it was long, and boring! :(

Zaii you strike me as one who...

This sounds personal and is not for the public forum. Lets just stick to the topic, Zaii's personality is his business and is not up for discussion here.

[Naomi]

my apologies ricci

[Kuro-Ryuu]

I know the incantations for the Kuji In seals individually if that'll help.
Rin: Om vai shi ra mantaya sowaka
Byou: Om ishia na ya in ta ra ya sowaka
Tou: Om je te ra ji i ta ra ji ba ra ta no o sowaka
Sha: Om ha ya vai shi ra mantaya sowaka
Kai: Om naumaku samanda bazara dan kan
Jin: Om aga na ya in ma sowaka
Retsu: Om Hi ro ta ki sha no ga ji ba tai sowaka
Zai: Om chirichi ibarota ya sowaka
Zen: Om Arabashanau sowaka

I hope that helps a little bit.

[Naomi]

Tengu actually knows the Kuji-in for seeing in the dark - and it works! Maybe I can get him to pose and I'll photograph him. It's also in one of Hatsumi's books but it might be out of print.

[The Tengu]

Tengu actually knows the Kuji-in for seeing in the dark - and it works! Maybe I can get him to pose and I'll photograph him. It's also in one of Hatsumi's books but it might be out of print.
Yeah.

That being said, I still carry two flashlights at work and keep one in the trunk as a backup.

The magic stuff is good for seeing in the dark, but not for seeing in the dark.

Get it? Good.

[Kuroyagi]

thats cool, I also experienced that inuitive night vision in connection to magical practice (even made a thread about it: http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=19896 )

I dont know much about Ninjutsu but Id certainly enjoy a good pic!

Recently I was walking the nightstreets and thought: shit I can see so clear and so far, must have gotten an upgrade. But then I remebered: a soo, its because Im not drunk for once. lol.

[Naomi]

I posted some Kuji-in to my LiveJournal to be clever:

http://bsinterstellar.livejournal.com/597.html

[Zombiegunclub]

Great thread. All of the Anti-Buj stuff is pretty much as old as MMA cage fighting.

Eff it. If you can't stab people it isn't real combat or even a real test.

I think the proof of the Bujinkan's efficacy is in the fact that they don't jump up and throw their balls on the table for every one to look at.

Tengu and Naomi are on solid ground here. If you're curious they seem to have the flashlights.

[telecino]

In case any of you are interested, there is a website dedicated to kuji-in, interestingly enough, it is www.kujiin.com (http://www.kujiin.com) , and another one focussing on kuji-kiri, interestingly enough it is www.kujikiri.com (http://www.kujikiri.com)

They even have a detailed introduction training, much richer than any other try-it-yourself websites that are thought by copy-pasters from elsewhere on the web.