The Phoenix

[Kuroyagi]

Since I have this phoenix avatar I'd like to make a topic about this "mythological creature" from an Asian perspective. I have always somehow been fascinated by it and been drawn to it.

Here is a wiki article about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang

I would be interested in any good/solid sites or in-sights on this subject, if anyone has got them.

It is especially worthy of notice to me that the fenghuang (phoenix) is written and was depicted as two phoenixes, in ancient times: the male and the female as a sort of conjuction of opposites or as a depiction of "yin and yang conjoined". Later it became more of a female association alone, that was complemented by the male/yang-based dragon. (standing also for the emperor in relation to the empress=phoenix), of course both are animals of cardinal directions (dragon= east, phoenix=south...[tiger=west, turtle=north] ).

There is also a good anime and manga by Tezuka Osamu that features the fire-bird (called "hi no tori"). In this story it traces human and cosmic history (with an emphasis on Japan) from its beginnings to its very end, always accompanied by that Firebird.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_%28manga%29

[m1thr0s]

it's a very striking image K...

m1

[Kuroyagi]

Yeah think so, too. Its from some computer game if I remember crrectly lol., I did some image- search for Japanese Houou 鳳凰, and that came up somewhere. If you look closely theres a very small shape of a man/person standing on a hill at the bottom- he is conjuring up that phoenix- =he is conjuring up himself in the shape of it, in his "space worthy form" I'd say. ;)

But I remember you saying somewhere that you also have that phoenix connection...and also you used the doubble headed phoenix in one avatar, or am I mistaken (I'm not sure)? This is of course again spot on with the Asian mythology of it (the conjunction of yin and yang)...

[m1thr0s]

yeah...the twinstar appeared to me one time as the so-called "hermes phoenix"...two-headed, comprised entirely of the elements of fire and spirit...can't even begin to describe how intelligent/handsome it was...

hung out for awhile and poof! never saw it in that form again... I think it was just responding to a question I had in the back of my mind...

kind of a "that too" response or something...

m1

[Naomi]

Ok Kuroyagi

I summoned a whole flock of these once. And they came...and I had nothing for them, but they did show up. This was at an early point in my working with the traditional circle system from Europe so I had no idea what to do about it. Greg was there. We had some little guys watching us from the trees and they were warm orange red birds who looked at us curiously and then I sent them off. It was night, and there was no fire so it may not have manifested properly. (Oh well - what's proper?)

My eagle, for instance, (Neo Eagle) is my own version of the bluebird of happiness, and he's a very dangerous kind of bird, not Garuda, more like, Garuda's granddad, and the macrocosmic version of Raven....or Kangi, and Hohokw....the cannibal bird. Fire and spirit hmm? My guess is that's completely right, but it may be there is another element at our level of development, when it's manifesting as a bird, we're dealing with a wheel of animal forms, you can take Fire-Spirit-Dog and get a kitsune, for instance, or Fire-Spirit-Dragon and get Ningishzidda.


The range of bird deities and bird demons seems to center around cannibalism and war, while at the same time nothing like bird energy even comes close to the subtle energy of the serpent.

I think humans will end up producing their own "reborn form" like the Dinosaurs did with their supreme achievement, the bird, it may be artificial intelligence, it may be psychics, but it most certainly won't be brute force, sharks have already achieved this in the Devonian and we plunder and destroy them using the superior magick of tools - though they still manage to tag a few humans each year, anyways...

All of this reborn in-between stuff is the hallmark of the phoenix, really, so it's no surprise we see a lot of phoenix related merchandising going on these days...during the turning point of human evolution.

[m1thr0s]

I like the asian version personally and think its age is significant since the wiki article indicates it to be originating from pre-dynastic china at least 7,000 years in circulation...an impressive lifespan that could make it as old as the Sphinx for instance, or at least somewhere in that range.

It apparently has little in common with the egyptian style phoenix and strikes me as vaguely reminiscent of the peacock angel of the Yezidi...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

The phoenix represents yin in Chinese symbology, complementing the Dragon as Yang, in this form it becomes much more important as a figure, and I often correlate the dragon and phoenix with all encompassing forms - I group dogs with dragons and all birds with phoenix, for instance. Viruses, too...I think these are phoenix form, it's very intercosmic at a technical level.

After exploring the elements applied to the bigrams over the past week I noticed something else - the phoenix has always bothered me as a symbol for Yin because it seems not authentic enough to completely represent all the qualities of yin, but I determined that it would in fact fit well with the son-daughter formations, being an air form anyways. In the West you have Air acting as the intermediary between Fire and Water anyways...

Besides that there's been times when I have to include the cat as the ultimate symbol of yin - I like the tiger-dragon form of the animalistic taijitu, even though it is far more compelling and dangerous (esoterically speaking) than the phoenix-dragon combo.

I need to formulate a graphic to demonstrate this relationship, maybe I'll get to it tonight...I am trying to get a good grasp on the elemental bigrams, so thank you for posting this Kuroyagi. I'm beginning to formulate idea applications.

[Darkwater]

Through Russian Earth Magick,the burning black pebble I met a lava dog in the roots of my tree,which turned dragon for a journey into the shrunken universe.

Upon climbing my black tree I met Swan whom I had a nice dialogue with,jumped on her back when she offered & once in the astral plane she turned phoenix for a ride through the expended universe.Both were just joyrides,we didn't go any place special just enjoyed it all.

Also met a piebald horse which turned winged unicorn in the Astral.I saw it morphing back into it's natural horse shape,which was not a pretty site until it's hair grew back.

This was a year ago,I haven't seen Dragon or swan/phoenix or horse/flying unicorn since.Lava dog used to follow me through the buildings of my routes through Glasgow when driving,which was cool.

Dunno if this fits in any in this nice discussion.

Namaste

Andy

ps.I see a lot of cats,just not through the Russian Earth Magick excersise.

[Kuroyagi]

Yes I think all the cardinal animals are very powerful and represent, or rather: emphasize various interesting aspects that one can pick out by focusing on one.

It's relevant that e.g. Ng is basically depicted as a composite form who has wings and bird feet: those characteristics are "of the bird" one could say. Also the Chinese dragon is a very composite form and flight is one characteristic of it too, though it doesn't even need wings for it: its flight is more like the striking of lightning and the clap of thunder, since it brings the spring rains and new life of a different kind to the phoenix.

Now the phoenix's characteristic -if picked out/focused on- is not that it itself is of that "composite" nature, thats not its "strength".

One good prof. once told me when he explained the Chinese character with the meaning of "to advance, to progress" [ 進] that its composed mainly of the sign for bird ("olde bird" its called) because the ancients saw it as the characteristic of a bird not to be able to go backwards or retreat (like a human or tiger can do)- it can always only go forward. I consider this -namely advancement, ascension- as its main characteristic and agree with you that most of the others of those animals are maybe more "powerful" (relatively speaking). Its certainly also productive to compare the strength of the Tiger with the one of the Dragon, least is the most noble and has the most magical power in my view and former the most feral strength and majesty (closer to the human conception of it: typically king-like or queen like if you want to see it that way, also of a quick temper- I must know I was born in a tiger year myself..), and then its equally furthering to see them as parts of the whole and how yin yang interplay in each and all of them. The ascriptions are sometimes...well often a bit insufficient or unclear- thats the advantage of such clear cut components like the hexagramms or lines in general: one can construct from scratch things that are way too complicated to normally think of and the translation of them into another medium- let's call this "art"- can be incredibly difficult, yet worth the effort.

darkwater: thanks, those seem to have been some fun journeys: recently I more and more assume every "Gestalt" (shape) I encounter on such excursions for myself for a time- borrow it (learned that long ago through dream magic): this brings great insight, too (it "kicks ass" to use the modern idiom.). Again here -since you reminded me of Pegasos and the star constellation of that name- its a question of a certain focus (way of looking at things from an angle), "connecting the dots" into a context...

p.s. just as I wrote yestereve (but then didnt have time anymore): the conjuration/calling of the phoenix - as you (N) said "in the European paradigm", is very much d'accord with my exp. there- its the typical Egyptian phoenix- which is basically more bird like and normal not as strong as the Asian one- only that it regenerated and is quasi "immortal"- sort of king of the birds.

[Apopheros]

I remember playing the RPG game "Shinning Force 2" on Sega Genesis and the Phoenix was your road buddy. His name was Peter (http://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/pages/characters/peter.html). Saint Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter)was suposely crucified head down, so there's probably something about The Fool in Tarot and other mythologies.

my 2 cents


http://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/screenshots/characters/peter_vs_black_monk.gifhttp://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/icon/peter.gif

[m1thr0s]

well...Hanged Man...sure. Passive ascension and all of that. The connection has something to do with air, alchemically. Ever try connecting the dots on the hanged man? Yields the alchemical symbol for air...

http://abrahadabra.com/images/hangedman01.jpg

Fool is Air as well...different kind of air though...I think the H.Man better represents ascension from ones own ashes...



m1thr0s

[MythMath]

I don't get out much,
what deck is that card from...?

[m1thr0s]

no idea...just found the image through a search...

quality artwork though...

m1

[Kuroyagi]

Thats interesting Apo& m1- I didnt consider that- and havent made the connection- overlaying the HM with that elemental symbol- but it fits.

Actually I have found a page that also hints at the composite nature of the phoenix:
In China the feng huang was the sacred fire bird. It was truly a magnificent creature to behold, and it had the features of several different animals. It had the head of a swan; the throat of a swallow; the beak of a chicken; the neck of a snake; the legs of a unicorn; the arched beak of a turtle; and the stripes of a dragon. Its feathers were made up of the five sacred colors: black, white, red, green, and yellowhttp://www.mythopedia.info/ignis-e-coelo.htm

Also while the dragon was the totem animal of the Xia dynasty (~2070-1600 B.C.) the Phoenix was the one of the Chu tribes settling in the South of China, and also of the following Shang dynasty (1600-1046 B.C.). (colours: Xia=Black, Shang= Red...this may account for the ascription of the direction South for the Phoenix..)

Then, also Confucius lamented about the absence of the coming forth of the phoenix in his day since "the river only gives forth a chart in times when it appears"- it is the sign of the birth/rise of a wise king, a sage-king of old. (cf. the hetu and luoshu diagrams and their ascribed numbers that are said to have been arrived at by the Chinese when they counted the numbers of stars of various constellations of the night sky.)