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BeautifulEvil
01-14-2008, 08:15 PM
I would like to publish some of my more fascinating work on English Gematria. The work I've done is really interesting and I believe these associations are beyond coincidence.

I've written a program to analyze English words and enumerate them using the A-Z/1-26 method. These results are uploaded to a MySQL database for easier processing. So far I've analyzed about 90,000 unique words. Some of these are from the KJV version of the bible, some are from the Book of the Law, and others are from a random dictionary list. I would like to create a website for this research to display my research in its entirety.

I can analyze any word or number for you if you would like. Just send me a private message or post the request in this thread.

------------------

Let me start with a set of associations that relate directly to Abrahadabra. This set is beyond interesting, and the probabilities of such words associating at random are basically nil. The words that are red bolded words have the BEST associations with each other. These also relate well to the balck bolded words. The unbolded words may have relations to the bolded words, but are less apparent or direct.

57: aught, height, eighth, alight, builded, might, fungi, mediate, saddhu, deaths, hasted, tides, seeth, mahatma, human, likeable, least, steal, shield, stem, blinked, omit, dilemma, abound, samekh, daffodil, demigod, magdalen, befallen, befalls, boast, gleams, embodied, amendable, defends, bless, golden, longed, golds, pineal, sleep, ions, fooled, pangs, jolt, napalm, bloom, birth, joined, drift, moon, heater, differed, heralded, regime, rent, emerged, breakable, ringed, brides, debris, refine, harken, easier, fires, shark, risk, garland, enabler, blares, farms, labored, snare, repeal, roll, fnord, absorb, roads, detect, hitched, eros, sore, rose, teachable, celibate, afflict, appear, culled, sabbatic, infect, seduce, clung, casual, clubs, major, depict, magician, lacking, abrahadabra, blackened, schemed, vitae, fairer, alliance, changes, breeder, darker, divided, reefer, fancies, claims, cost, channel, balances, veiled, peaches, congeal, pieces, given, palaces, oceans, cherub, wheat, crafted, crumb, bickered, kicker, chimera, enrich, richen, walled, wink, ascribe, actor, orchid, sacker, chorded, crammed, wiped, glow, croaked, prick, below, bowel, swan, sow, lux, wood, jews, sexed, accepted, charred, fewer, achieved, deceived, jinx, cancels, shady, lays, slay, clove, winch, crackled, anarchic, mary, city, acidify, crawl, decays, waxed, cocky, crazed, sion, megiddo, jebus, goetia

------------------

Here's some more of my work.

55: slain, wicked, bribes, exile, satan, trap, filth, judas, asps, hiss

74: finished, heavens, gavest, wandered, tempt, horns, harlot, ruler, attained, abominable, accursed, lamented, wiser, error, renewed, manifold, preacher, lucifer, messiah, jesus, gospel, pinnacle, cross, parables, unbelief, jewish, satans, fruit, greater, wandered, coequal, beauty, energy, shines, parent, holiday,

77: christ, stars, mouth, nights, fathers, strife, known,wrong, matter, meditate, glory, power, findest, stoned, wound, sacrificed, forbidden, killeth, despise, causeth, taught, kneeling,escapeth, lifting, condemned, daytime, changeth, craveth, pacifieth,endangered, disciple, arimathaea, accusing, briefly

64: dwelt, desired, built, believed, bosom, mercy, cometh, israel, true, poor, falleth, burned, chosen, bright, rideth, seize, zion, infant, pits, leaders, peter, elects, torch, nuit, prince, thou, chosen, thelema, wilt, tzaddi, dust, vital, test, spell, mercy, spit, cower

72: revealed, aiwass, world, lover, lust, sweet, first, covered, wings, reason, money, unlike, failure, mohammed, bahlasti, wheels

144: aggrandizement, drunkenness, multitudes, attestation, scruntinize, comprehensible, ankhafnakhonsu, rahoorkhuit, inspiration, overthrow

96: knowledge, knoweth, proclaimed, speakest, wounds, reckoning, wasteth, strifes, revealeth, plucketh, planteth, praiseth, disciples, christs, powers, manifested, limiteth

97: serpent, husbandman, egyptian, foreskin, pleasure, touching, beautiful, watering, present, softly, troubled, garments, butlers, besought, overtake, pilgrimage, lawgiver, horsemen, foreigner, sanctify, remembrance, testified, coupling, serveth, direction, prolong, knewest, presume, recompence, lusty, determined, hurting, disguised, fourfold, violent, bounty, reignest, story, repairing, lookest, kinsfolk, departeth, cutteth, working, extolled, equity, witty, blueness, purely, convert, mutter, instant, rendereth, waters, miseries, resemblance, tempter, peacemakers, possible, buildings, fishermen, sufficeth, treatise, approved, believers, orderly, barbarous, foreknew, strived, weakness, commending, supreme, deceivings, delicious

42: hadit, balanced, wand, sin, rare, five, axle, nine, self, rain, war, odds, coph, fish, female, war, lamp, pay, lady, judaea, dawn

32: life, eve, ended, she, men, dread, rei, ages, dew, dread, damn, abased

52: abracadabra, earth, form, from, own, shall, what, names, now, well, door, seth, lived, heart, flood, six, spake, altar, plain, arise, salt, birds, speak, ashes, some, weaned, thigh, wit, kept, hadst, hazel, doeth, ewes, staff, raise, loud, last, sighed, declared, herbs, encamp, marched, blow, sinai, gates, decline, dancing, means, spice, crop, bewail, dwarf, pride, camps, bowl, leeks, aloes, helve, besiege, seeds, necks, carmel, riddle, grind, abused, marked, caring, sawed, ledges, cleaved, roar, weigh, won, fodder, dealing, create, copied, finer, accuse, ship, mart, neighed, charmed, blacker, traded, devil, pearl, harped, adorn, seared, canker, nero, damnable, biddeth, pope

48: fool, none, tree, evil, ribs, live, blood, son, filled, drank, build, famine, wild, sell, long, sit, accept, trade, ripe, declare, ring, buy, wall, join, bondage, bunch, thief, wax, paved, fins, chewed, pole, vile, botch, deny, gleaned, climbed, abuse, hedges, device, noble, chaldean, hoped, maker, wet, crime, fixed, shaked, veil, aware, juice, cabins, handled, doted, herald, hats, craft, anise, differ, rude, cleave

101: tongues, melchizedek, measures, whoredom, vessels, division, sitteth, holiness, continue, sacrificeth, candlestick, compound, mastery, assembling, singular, presumed, pollute, blessest, fortieth, mightest, evermore, assurance, parlour, lewdness, smallest, garrison, behaviour, spittle, afflictest, merchants, eighteenth, barnfloor, revolted, blasphemy, confounded, husbandmen, soldiers, dismissed, register, reported, presses, persians, terrify, roarings, condemneth, lettest, comprehend, furrow, croucheth, spoiling, sleepest, swelling, boastest, enrichest, revenging, morsels, foreseeth, wringing, skipping, conceiving, rentest, intents, dismaying, repentance, palestine, pardoneth, rattling, quivered, unloose, lordship, traitor, doubtful, proving, sorcerer, christian, invisible, olympas, sowest, concision, immortal, sundry, speakings, philadelphia, assassin, immortal, holiness

111: lustful, infinitude, distillate, befuddlement, tanglement, fundamental, lightless, outshine, amusement, unlinking, maintaining, hothouse, litheness, knighthood, illusion, loneliest, punishes, adulterated, boundless, hilltops, foulness, bloodstain, goldstone, fissionable, fainthearted, testifier, slaughter, anomalous, pentagons, strength, unalterable, nonplus, obliterated, forgettable, disguiser, outsider, stunner, threadless, fermenting, sundering, lionhearted, opinions, resenting, stubborn, redesigning, digressing, ruleless, headstrong, trinomial, termless, opposing, firestone, bourgeois, mourning, friendless, speedster, atrophies, honourable, openhearted, metastatic, breakpoint, assigners, reassigns, formation, untouched, senators, robotism, foremost, orations, tornadoes, liquors, dishonored, mutative, indictment, grandsons, morphism, significant, prettier, troubler, determiner, disaffection, arresting, unspecified, infliction, scientism, poisoner, judicious, midsection, refinisher, drummers, fascination, bedevilment, auriculate, ejaculation, competent, sheepherder, disclosing, topnotch, slickness, assuror, pruners, quarrels, partners, disorders, confessing, speechless, confounds, compensate, vanquish, livelihood, discreditable, closeness, christiania, omissive, insolvable, encumbering, outlaws, composing, entrenches, eroticism, incoherent, indecipherable, computer, reclamation, sunglow, conflagrant, ferocious, perceptible, electrons, shivering, perfection, channellers, apprenticed, redresser, feverous, haughtily, overtaken, inappreciable, comradeship, conjuring, revolts, governing, perjurer, horrors, treacheries, delightedly, resolvable, expunges, humanity, unoccupied, amethyst, skylight, explaining, overtop, crushers, initially, unsafety, omnivore, incandescent, towering, communicable, swirling, creditors, corrupt, wiretaps, wrinkles, lamentedly, fiendishly, inverter, insanity, iconoclast, somewhere, analysts, antinomy, corporate, manifoldly, reverses, tinderbox, cosmologic, lucrative, brutally, unruly, ethereally, unwelcome, putrefy, reverter, cutwater, approver, wherefrom, divergences, reinforcer, majority, illicitly, providence, sanctity, extractable, additively, xenophobic, vaccination, executor, melodically, concoction, symbolical, coequally, atrocity, depolarize, emblazoner, shadowbox, bricklaying, witchcraft, adversely, severely, excessive, underway, necromancy, witchery, fuzzier

121: antimatter, tantrist, tritheism, hungriest, shattering, dimensions, appellation, earthshaking, bloodstone, burnishing, enumerates, saturnine, interlinked, friendliest, administered, equilateral, ruination, trueness, brightness, possessed, lamplighter, strangling, gradualness, annihilator, mesmerist, repulsing, unparalleled, spelunker, separatism, glamorous, depressant, motherhood, nurtured, intriguer, landlordism, tortured, triangular, reasonings, hornedness, unification, dishonors, suffocating, infectious, combustible, promotes, annunciates, thrillers, sustenance, techniques, vignettes, magnification, encapsulated, prolegomena, speculates, legislative, bodhisattva, transferable, forefathers, protruded, enhancements, strangers, selectness, cloudiness, displacement, poorness, omniscient, cosmonaut, dislocation, firstborn, consolidated, whiteout, turbulence, superior, antichrist, attraction, compoundable, swiftest, translucid, performing, whistling, centralist, programmable, unwilling, bidirectional, wheelhouse, dishwashing, sweetening, chastisers, virulent, empiricist, discourages, atrocious, murderers, alphanumeric, declarations, metaphorical, stonewall, primitive, refreshers, metamorphic, universal, harvestman, weaknesses, mirroring, rejuvenate, revelation, exaltation, commemorate, maximalist, behaviorism, misbehavior, grovelling, unaccounted, restricted, semiflexible, perception, slaveholder, scissors, prospected, lecturers, principles, resolving, pronounce, inapproachable, communicated, paraphraser, disunity, expedition, exploitable, misconduct, overtook, whiteners, shrewdest, midnightly, reconfigure, developers, equability, exemption, extraditable, incorrigible, reflectors, advertiser, exhauster, retrieves, intensify, procathedral, provokes, swordfish, advancements, adversaries, convenient, consequence, sorceress, exothermal, expertise, heliocentric, constrict, encirclement, hexahedrons, enjoyment, degenerately, northward, demagoguery, strangely, numerally, whisperer, maternally, yourself, generatrix, exposers, inexplicit, borrowing, exaggerator, awestruck, oysters, pharmacologic, quetzals, brainpower, ecclesiastical, overcoming, ritualize, exporter, provinces, extracting, shipwrecked, livability, syngenetic, warriors, crosswalk, standardize, vivacious, showdown, overwhelm, invisibly, primarily, knavishly, parallelized, motorize, abstractly, copyright, supremacy, capitalizes, cannibalizing, poverty, copyholder, luxury, vulgarize, apocalyptic, extravagance, convalescence, accompanying, archetypical, everybody

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Some of these are rather long and I am sorry for that. I haven't had time to cull them and remove the erroneous words. If you skim through these, you will miss some of the better associations.

Naomi
01-14-2008, 09:51 PM
Wait are you the guy who runs Mysticalnet's Gematria Server (http://www.mysticalinternet.com/gematria/index.php)?

m1thr0s
01-14-2008, 10:45 PM
that's part of robin's mystical internet (http://www.mysticalinternet.com/)...been around for years.

not sure what Robin's last name is...probably not his real name anyway...

m1

BeautifulEvil
01-14-2008, 11:35 PM
No, I am not the guy that runs that site.

This is my own research. I compiled it without the help of any site, person, or book.

I only posted a few sets of word associations in my first post. I have MANY more, just haven't had the time to compile anything.

I tell people if they can't see the significance of this then they are not well learned in the occult. Like I said before, the probabilities of some of these happening at random are extremely low.

Naomi
01-14-2008, 11:48 PM
Well, it's all insignificant to me, but I appreciate your hard work, that's something.

I look forward to reading more of your research.

BeautifulEvil
01-14-2008, 11:55 PM
It's insignificant to you? How do you reason?

Hard work you say? Nay! It wasn't hard at all. :)

-----

Let me explain number 57 and the abrahadabra association. If you notice I bolded the associations that made the most sense, and then I highlighted the words that made the BEST association in red.

Take a look a pineal; obviously that refers to the pineal gland and it's association with the third eye. Now also notice that magician and abrahadabra is associated with pineal - this is interesting because some of the more advanced magicians will have opened their third eye. Some also associate sion with the third eye and the pineal gland (this is common in some alchemy circles). Now look at mary and rose; this is interesting because mary is often associated with the rose (Da Vinci code anyone?). Also notice bloom - rose bloom? Mary was also celibate, but she had a birth (notice the word birth in there?). Pangs is also associated with birth (as in birth pangs). Moon is also associated with mary. Also it's interesting to notice the occurrence of sion and megiddo.

This is how the word associations should work. It's a game of connecting the words and figuring out how they relate to each other.

Also one more thing, I would like to note a hypothesis I have. Apparently it doesn't matter if these things have basis in history, the only thing that matters is the human belief in them. We're not talking about a single humans belief. I'm talking about belief as in all humanity, collectively. All this is the result of the evolution of language and it's subconscious associations with archetypes and cultural beliefs.

Naomi
01-15-2008, 12:01 AM
Well I had to expand to the edges of the known universe to capture a spark of divine essence and at that point words just become meaningless...

I do love to play though, and this is a good read...

I especially like 55...I'd like to see some more.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 01:11 AM
I played around with a number of like variations some years ago. For myself, I wound up hitting onto a very different concept of what a significant English Qabbalah would have to amount to...something I don't want to go into right here and now.

It's important for people to understand that all numerologies are hypothetical in nature and can vary even within cultural niches that might use them the most. There is not just one Hebrew Numerology for instance...there are untold dozens...perhaps hundreds...of which the one called AIQ BKR has generally attained to a certain popular dominance. It's not entirely certain what all causes this to happen...why one numeration may turn out to be more popular than others. But it is important to keep in mind that none of them are etched in stone and there are not any of them of which I am aware that is rooted in any kind of underscoring science, vibrational ratios of sounds or anything like this.

This does not mean they do not work...it means there is always an overhanging mystery that exists as to why they work and how...this is not exact science, yet the possibility exists that it might be someday by some ways and means we do not presently employ...

Anyway...I recreated one of those that seemed to have some success for me in the past. It's distinguishing characteristic (as I recall) was that it bore a perfect balance of letters (1) the same in Hebrew & Greek (2) unique to Greek only and (3) unique to English only...9 to each category as I remember...
The Key

http://abrahadabra.com/images/engqab01.jpg

I'm not offering this up by way of competition and I hope it isn't taken that way...this is just something I played around with for a few years that seemed to have a lot going for it at the time. Many of these various systems do...that's part of the attraction I think and also part of a great underlying puzzle...

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 01:30 AM
For myself, I wound up hitting onto a very different concept of what a significant English Qabbalah would have to amount to...something I don't want to go into right here and now.Please do, I'm publishing my results and I would like to hear what you have to say on the matter. If you don't want to make it public then the least you could do is send me a PM.

It's important for people to understand that all numerologies are hypothetical in nature and can vary even within cultural niches that might use them the most. There is not just one Hebrew Numerology for instance...there are untold dozens...perhaps hundreds...of which the one called AIQ BKR has generally attained to a certain popular dominance. It's not entirely certain what all causes this to happen...why one numeration may turn out to be more popular than others. But it is important to keep in mind that none of them are etched in stone and there are not any of them of which I am aware that is rooted in any kind of underscoring science, vibrational ratios of sounds or anything like this.Oh sure thing. For example: with the English alphabet one can come up 403291461126605635584000000 way to enumerate it. Of course there are countless other if you want to start multiplying the numbers or tacking zeros onto them. I've analyzed a few different combinations of these (some of the more popular ways discuss on the internet) but I've found little or no merit in them. They did not match up to quality of the a-z/1-26 system.

m1th0s, I will use your method to see if it has any merit. I'll post the results in a little while. Stay tuned.

-------

Here are the results:


Amount of Unique Numbers: 643
Amount of Unique Words: 1105
---------------------------------
Using Table: compilation
50: life
78: ended
84: filled
87: female
93: climbed
98: neighed
102: likeable
105: men, damn
106: balanced
112: gleaned, chaldean, handled
114: dread, rei
116: decline, dealing
121: famine
129: dilemma
130: differ, blinked, daffodil, magician, lacking, blackened
134: nine
139: demigod, befallen, embodied, differed, alliance, megiddo
143: damnable
144: dancing
148: declare, herald, magdalen, amendable, bickered
149: join, bondage
151: lamp
152: declared, riddle
157: crime, heralded, kicker
158: joined
161: coph, marched, charmed, blacker
166: maker, regime, emerged, breakable, chimera, crackled
167: long, noble, hoped, channel
170: rain, marked
171: copied
176: fool, blood, ring, golden, longed, congeal
179: carmel
180: flood, plain, grind, caring, finer
185: drank, pole, pineal, fooled, ringed, refine, enrich, richen, anarchic
189: encamp, fodder, canker
193: crammed
194: ripe, harken, orchid, chorded
195: none
198: pride, harped
203: garland, enabler, croaked
206: rare
208: mohammed
212: napalm, bloom, labored, prick
213: she, ages, abased
216: abracadabra, form, from, pearl
220: abominable, manifold
221: repeal, major, abrahadabra, fairer, breeder, reefer, charred
223: fish
229: hedges
230: roll, darker
233: sighed, besiege
235: adorn, nero, pope
238: shaked
240: moon, fnord
241: self
244: door
248: pinnacle
251: condemned, ledges
253: crop
256: shield
257: prince
260: forbidden, leeks
265: sell, philadelphia, schemed
267: appear
269: sin, shall
271: roar
274: samekh, befalls
275: fins, cabins, anise
278: odds
279: sinai
283: gleams, claims
284: defends, changes, fancies
288: pilgrimage, necks
297: spice, ship
298: commending
300: slain
301: finished
302: preacher, balances, peaches, pieces, cancels
306: names, spake, speak, means, aloes
311: ribs, golds
315: arise, birds, some, raise, herbs, seared
318: bribes
320: poor, sleep, brides, debris, easier, fires, palaces, ascribe
321: indecipherable
322: hadit
324: camps
327: desired
328: thief
329: shark, risk, sacker
330: son
332: thigh, biddeth
334: reckoning
337: height, eighth, hitched
338: blares
339: ions, oceans, sion
340: sacrificed, disciple
342: proclaimed
345: israel, leaders, spell
346: chosen
347: farms
348: pangs
353: filth
355: alight, teachable, celibate, afflict
361: remembrance
362: foreigner
364: might, mediate
366: snare
371: recompence, repairing
375: error, comprehend, absorb, roads, eros, sore, rose
380: falleth
382: bosom
383: botch, doted, infect
385: inappreciable
387: doeth
389: thelema
391: mahatma
392: gospel, changeth, accept, goetia
401: depict, accepted
402: killeth
404: incorrigible
405: kept
410: tree, trade, craft, jolt
414: earth, heart, ashes, seeds, create, traded
415: kinsfolk
417: hiss, prolong
419: parables, omit, birth, drift, heater, crafted
421: lifting, judaea
422: pharmacologic
426: cometh, bright, rideth
427: juice
432: altar
433: fishermen
436: infant, reason
437: bless
438: horns
439: barnfloor
441: mart
445: lamented, build
450: inapproachable
451: resemblance
454: builded
458: reinforcer
460: peacemakers
463: messiah
465: spoiling, skipping, rent
466: arimathaea, redesigning
468: prolegomena
470: foreskin
472: culled
473: bunch
474: actor
476: programmable
477: performing
481: trap, asps, torch
482: shines, fungi
484: concision
488: horsemen
490: peter
495: mirroring
500: clung
501: lordship
502: refinisher, channellers, cosmologic
503: despise
504: loud
509: harlot, sit, hats, rude, human
510: eve
513: seth, hadst, staff, gates
517: unbelief
518: greater, deaths, hasted, tides, seeth, sabbatic, cherub
520: five, sheepherder, comradeship
524: unlike
526: device
530: dishonored
531: salt, last
532: determined
535: divided, achieved, deceived
536: least, steal
537: abound
539: composing
540: disciples
543: elects
544: evil, live, vile, veil, cleave
545: stem, crumb
546: parent
547: garrison, roarings, morphism
548: lived, helve, cleaved, devil, landlordism
551: failure, bahlasti
553: lucifer, veiled
554: assembling
555: condemneth
556: maintaining, knighthood, infliction
558: opinions
560: believed, direction
562: satan
568: miseries
571: burned
573: cross, boast, cost
575: magnification
576: opposing, principles
581: given
582: holiness, speakings
583: sorcerer
584: nights, findest
587: rendereth
589: pits, spit
590: paved, immortal
592: fissionable, fermenting, lionhearted, disclosing
594: poisoner
596: possible
599: coequal
601: digressing
602: interlinked, bidirectional, heliocentric
608: abuse, clove
609: dew
610: lamplighter
612: abused, accuse
615: judas, first
617: comprehensible, saddhu, detect, seduce, jebus
618: soldiers
619: repentance, trinomial, friendless, reclamation, perceptible
620: christ, fathers, strife, confessing, incoherent, encirclement
625: chewed
628: pardoneth, determiner
629: weigh
630: manifested
635: ruler, candlestick, casual, clubs
638: openhearted, conflagrant, perfection
639: stoned
641: wicked
643: wild
644: sacrificeth
645: morsels
647: bewail, breakpoint, apprenticed, metaphorical
648: horrors, concoction, annihilator
650: revealed
655: persians, unlinking
656: formation, metamorphic
657: dimensions
659: coupling
661: wall
663: communicable
664: meditate, reported, significant
665: wand, dawn, well
666: appellation
670: walled
671: dismissed
672: pacifiethendangered, discreditable
673: disaffection
674: commemorate
675: weaned, motherhood
676: paraphraser
680: attained, winch
682: confounded
683: accusing
686: fourfold, reignest
687: covered
689: wink
690: enrichest, palestine, christian
691: encumbering
692: disorders
695: lookest
698: wiped
699: foreseeth
700: midsection, christiania
701: limiteth, war
702: blow, bowl, grandsons, procathedral
703: praiseth
705: lover
707: aware, eighteenth, glow, below, bowel
709: loneliest
710: incandescent
711: dwarf
712: reasonings, hornedness, perception
713: garments
716: accursed, aught, fewer
717: merchants
719: fascination, redresser, conjuring, earthshaking
721: buildings, dishonors
724: fixed
725: tempt
726: register, conceiving
727: compound, hilltops, slickness
728: friendliest
729: corporate, refreshers
730: delicious, own, now, won
734: crawl
735: livelihood
736: axle, speechless, eroticism, treacheries
737: administered, displacement, alphanumeric
741: built
744: wood
746: matter, bloodstain, goldstone, resenting, mourning, honourable, entrenches,
iconoclast, unparalleled
747: enhancements
749: exile
750: serpent, present
753: revenging
755: headstrong, firestone, empiricist
756: omniscient, dislocation, consolidated
762: satans
764: compensate
765: compoundable, reconfigure
769: nuit
773: atrophies, closeness, electrons
774: strangling
776: husbandman
778: thou, cower
779: heavens, wandered, renewed, jinx
780: husbandmen
781: parlour, unspecified
782: assigners, reassigns, arresting, thrillers
783: pentagons, declarations
784: planteth
785: poorness
789: lightless
790: presses, indictment
791: robotism, foremost, creditors
798: kneelingescapeth, fortieth
799: fainthearted, ecclesiastical
800: perjurer
801: stars, knowledge, forefathers
802: deceivings
803: departeth
804: world
805: true, test
806: smallest
807: singular, rattling
808: tanglement, illusion
810: ewes, sawed, orations, tornadoes, transferable
811: speakest, bloodstone
815: jesus, fruit, vitae, jews
817: litheness
818: mouth, governing, grovelling
819: reflectors
820: strifes, christs
821: pleasure
824: invisible
825: evermore, sleepest
826: proving, obliterated, forgettable, scientism
830: presume, tempter, supreme
832: jewish, acidify
834: presumed
835: lady, unloose
836: providence
838: testified, disguised
840: vital, approved
845: sundering
846: plucketh, partners
847: firstborn, prospected
848: wheels, pronounce
852: wringing
853: threadless
854: omnivore
855: power, burnishing
856: believers
857: touching
860: afflictest
861: division, befuddlement, swan
862: infinitude
863: bourgeois, competent, ferocious
864: overcoming
865: promotes
866: working, foreknew
869: deny, mightest
870: sow
871: assassin
872: anomalous
873: confounds
876: wings, barbarous
880: traitor, termless
881: pay
883: sorceress
884: hurting
888: distillate
889: drummers, ejaculation
891: topnotch, brightness, repulsing
896: cocky
897: whoredom, croucheth
898: inspiration, shivering, divergences
899: speedster, liquors, prettier, mesmerist
900: nonplus, spelunker
901: consequence
902: blueness
904: dust
905: wet
907: continue, fundamental, insolvable
909: what, six, wit
911: troubled
914: wiser, wheat, sexed
915: ankhafnakhonsu, pollute
917: causeth, craveth
918: glamorous
920: treatise
922: holiday
924: spittle
926: quarrels
927: unification
930: lust, instant
934: intents, testifier, unalterable, disguiser, wherefrom
935: communicated
936: senators, approver, separatism
937: sufficeth
939: dwelt, wilt
941: swelling, mary
942: blessest
943: resolvable
944: hazel, behaviorism, misbehavior
945: pruners, convalescence
948: mercy
951: measures
952: briefly
953: slaveholder
954: revealeth, murderers
955: depressant
960: bedevilment
961: explaining
962: punishes
964: possessed, superior
970: assurance, rentest, ruleless
971: boundless, foulness, tritheism, equilateral
973: strangers
974: violent
975: money
977: energy
980: strength
981: cloudiness, resolving
982: scissors
990: shattering, intriguer, antichrist
992: besought
998: computer
999: discourages, developers
1001: overtake
1007: glory, troubler, xenophobic
1008: gradualness, triangular, selectness, centralist
1009: ruination
1011: aiwass
1013: gavest, shady, decays, crazed
1014: revolted
1015: swirling
1016: taught, crushers, vaccination
1018: borrowing
1022: melodically
1024: wrinkles
1026: chastisers, restricted
1027: brainpower, provinces
1029: melchizedek
1031: lays, slay
1033: omissive, somewhere
1034: unoccupied, shipwrecked
1037: butlers
1038: convert
1039: zion
1041: bricklaying, semiflexible
1042: tongues
1045: provokes, constrict
1050: manifoldly
1051: amusement, slaughter
1052: outshine, primitive
1053: corrupt
1055: powers
1061: hothouse, overtaken, combustible
1062: suffocating, infectious
1063: knoweth, protruded
1071: assuror
1072: convenient
1078: boastest
1079: inverter
1080: techniques, revelation
1082: watering
1086: rahoorkhuit
1088: outsider
1089: hungriest, encapsulated, misconduct
1091: weakness
1095: behaviour
1096: legislative
1099: annunciates
1104: lewdness
1105: judicious
1106: dishwashing
1107: translucid, whisperer
1109: orderly
1110: sweet
1112: city
1113: quivered
1114: drunkenness
1115: reverses, reverter
1116: antimatter, enumerates
1118: serveth, strived
1119: seize
1122: sitteth
1125: stunner, overtop, adversaries
1130: dismaying, lux
1131: fiendishly
1134: wound, stubborn, accompanying
1135: saturnine, overtook
1140: vessels, lettest
1142: necromancy
1143: lecturers
1144: extolled, cosmonaut, attraction
1145: mutter
1150: adulterated
1151: towering, cannibalizing
1153: beautiful, atrocious
1159: daytime, metastatic
1161: hexahedrons
1166: blasphemy
1169: primarily
1170: copyholder
1179: advancements
1180: warriors
1185: symbolical
1190: knewest
1195: parallelized
1197: swordfish
1202: buy, delightedly
1204: depolarize
1205: revolts, unwilling, inexplicit
1206: waters
1212: doubtful
1213: unwelcome, emblazoner
1215: harvestman
1218: tzaddi
1220: illicitly
1221: olympas
1223: whistling
1224: speculates, advertiser, retrieves, crosswalk
1232: exploitable
1234: sustenance
1242: expedition
1243: northward
1248: initially
1249: auriculate
1250: untouched, tinderbox
1251: sweetening
1252: lawgiver
1259: exothermal
1262: egyptian
1267: midnightly
1268: vanquish
1269: exemption
1270: tantrist, trueness
1275: lamentedly
1276: furrow
1279: tortured
1284: ethereally
1286: feverous
1287: whiteners, generatrix
1295: wiretaps
1296: stonewall, weaknesses, exaggerator
1301: wax
1305: turbulence, universal
1306: unaccounted
1310: waxed
1316: cutteth
1320: terrify
1322: degenerately
1330: majority, witchcraft, maximalist
1331: wheelhouse
1334: wounds
1340: antinomy, archetypical
1348: lucrative
1350: enjoyment
1358: overwhelm
1360: exposers, exporter
1366: lustful
1367: sunglow, maternally
1369: nurtured
1374: skylight
1375: sowest
1377: copyright, apocalyptic
1379: sanctify
1386: vignettes, rejuvenate
1395: bodhisattva
1404: virulent, expertise
1406: softly
1414: wasteth
1415: purely
1422: shrewdest
1429: coequally
1439: insanity, demagoguery
1446: mastery
1447: extractable
1449: intensify, syngenetic
1457: expunges, extraditable
1466: numerally
1470: story
1476: exaltation
1485: extracting
1494: motorize
1499: aggrandizement
1503: strangely
1508: beauty
1538: capitalizes
1546: attestation
1555: mutative
1563: haughtily
1564: sundry
1583: executor, atrocity
1584: standardize
1592: analysts
1601: outlaws
1604: equity
1611: yourself
1612: showdown
1618: humanity
1619: invisibly
1620: swiftest
1627: excessive
1628: knavishly
1629: awestruck, supremacy
1632: bounty
1645: adversely, severely
1646: equability
1647: knownwrong
1654: amethyst
1655: shadowbox
1662: additively
1663: brutally
1673: sanctity
1675: oysters
1683: extravagance
1688: multitudes
1690: livability
1691: putrefy
1692: whiteout, vivacious
1709: cutwater
1719: exhauster
1730: lusty
1737: abstractly
1753: overthrow
1754: ritualize
1772: unsafety
1782: disunity
1790: unruly
1825: witchery
1855: poverty
1926: quetzals
1952: vulgarize
1970: underway
2009: witty
2046: scruntinize
2286: everybody
2320: fuzzier
2430: luxury

-----

This system doesn't work. The amount of numbers generated from this numeration is TOO high. There will never be any great associations because the words are too spread out. I know you weren't offering this system up for competition. My intention is to show that the a-z/1-26 method is still the best to my current knowledge.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 01:49 AM
I had a friend in computer science at the time that took this key and plugged it into the Book of the Law and we scoured the thing looking at what seemed to be especially relevant correlations. Unfortunately I have long since lost that document through assorted moves and so on...

But we did find a surprizing number of startling numerations at that time. Determining "relevance" of course is a complex art/science in itself...

The split-off at 50 is especially radical but that was exactly why I wanted to explore it...it treats the pivotal numerical remainder as resigning at the middle of 26 letters rather than one end or the other. There are a number of doctrinal supports for this especially in Eastern mathematical grids, where the center position is the logical position of "zero" or its elemental equivalent. So this was not a superficial adjustment but was very specifically something I wanted to examine with respect to English.

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 01:55 AM
I had a friend in computer science at the time that took this key and plugged it into the Book of the Law and we scoured the thing looking at what seemed to be especially relevant correlations.I'm working on my computer science / electrical engineering degree currently. I used most of the words in the Book of the Law to compile my original post. I used the words in my original post to analyze your numeration system. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I honestly don't see any relevant correlations. Please point them out if you would like.

Determining "relevance" of course is a complex art/science in itself...I disagree with you on that. Determining relevance is simply word/image associations in the mind. If you have enough knowledge, and you're a quick thinker, then determining relevance is fairly easy.

The split-off at 50 is especially radical but that was exactly why I wanted to explore it...it treats the pivotal numerical remainder as resigning at the middle of 26 letters rather than one end or the other. There are a number of doctrinal supports for this especially in Eastern mathematical grids, where the center position is the logical position of "zero" or its elemental equivalent. So this was not a superficial adjustment but was very specifically something I wanted to examine with respect to English.I noticed that. I actually thought it was rather weird! I made sure to follow your system exactly and not use 50. You also had to add that split because there are 26 characters in the alphabet. The logical pattern you had wouldn't have worked otherwise.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 02:02 AM
yes...we will certainly have to disagree on this for the moment.

When you say:
Determining relevance is simply word/images associations in the mind.what does this really mean? How do you establish the weight of certain words or combinations of words without comparing them to other relevant systems? And once you begin down this path...how do you determine what is relevant or not in other texts? What exactly is your criterion? Unless you are very clear about this you are kind of living in a bit of a daydream reality that cannot connect with others because of the lack of contextual agreements. Things can only be relevant or not relevant according to some other context...

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 02:14 AM
yes...we will certainly have to disagree on this for the moment. I'm always up for a good debate, but I really don't understand how you can disagree with me on this issue. Of course, different strokes for different folks. :)

Determining relevance is simply word/images associations in the mind.Let me clarify, sorry if I was too vague. Relevance is how closely a word or concept relates to another word or concept. That means if something has high relevance than it relates well enough to that which it is compared with. Low relevance operates exactly the same way, except inversely.

Determining how well a concept or word relates to another concept or word involves some interesting operations. The brain operates in this manner. In the brain, words or concepts are linked and related to other words or concepts. When I think "Jesus" I think "cross" and "messiah." Then I think "preacher" and "parables" and "tempt" and then "wandered" and then "ruler."

I'm referencing the number set 74 (from my OP) with this example.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 02:24 AM
As regarding this mysterious theory that I did not want to get into...part of the reason for this is that it is really a rather complex eidetic, but I will try to make it fairly simple.

It has to do with an evaluation of what English - as both a language and a cultural tradition - has to offer to the collective pool of numerological science that might actually be unique in some way. For me the whole clue to this surrounds the phenomena of Trigrammaton which is rooted in pure number to begin with. The 27 Trigrams of Trigrammaton exactly parallel the Qabbalah of 9 Chambers and each *structure* can legitimately be looked upon as a kind of *letter* value...but what are these letters?

It occurs to me in surveying the field that most of the so-called English Qabbalahs we find are actually just a revamping of older systems...they aren't really introducing anything especially new and they omit certain key factors corresponding to letters themselves. In ancient times, letters were more than simple sound properties...they were entire spiritual and elemental composites. English lacks this quality specifically because it is a stripped-down language to begin with...so the letter A is just a sound property in English...we have to go to some other context for it to derive any other meaning than that.

I believe that a meaningful English Qabbalah will need to completely redefine English letters to begin with. We will have to reject the stripped down valuations of letters and arrive at a new composite of letters that are not simply a rehash of older (and perhaps much better tested) systems. To do this we will need a precedent that makes this possible and we will also need some body of correspondences that are truly unique in some way...

So I think Trigrammaton points the way and we are not looking at simply connecting a bunch of dead letters to the Trigrams per se but rather we are looking for some way of defining the Trigrammal *letters* in a way unique to the English culture and language. It is my belief that this will have to be *scientific* in scope...that this is what English has to offer the collective pool.

This is rather complex as I say but it is a doable kind of project...but something that will have to be undertaken with great skill...in essence we need to repeat the process long ago enacted by the Chinese Sages when they were assigning *images* to the Eight Kua, or binary trigrams...The 27 ternary trigrams are virtually a blank slate...no great work has been accomplished upon this foundation yet. English could be the language that establishes this platform but it will need to be by way of something that actually bears the stamp of *relevance* in some new and vital way or it will simply blow away with the wind...much the same as I expect nearly all contemporary English Qabbalahs are destined to do.

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 02:54 AM
Very interesting post m1thr0s. It's a rather deep theory too. There's not really much to debate since these are your own personal meanderings on the matter.

I have a challenge for somebody. I will give you a golden apple if, and only if, you can give me a better number/word enumeration scheme than the a-z/1-26 one. By better I mean this: the word associations must be as meaningful, or even more meaningful than the system I used in my original post. I will use the words from my original post, to analyze your system and post the results. We will then be able to end this debate once and for all.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 03:04 AM
where exactly is your pool of words coming from BeautifulEvil? Are you drawing from some important magickal text or the dictionary or what? Because thus far I am not seeing where your sense of *relevance* is justified in any way that I can really grasp very clearly...

So what body of *relevant* words are you connecting to? You may have explained this already but I seem to have missed it...

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 03:16 AM
So far I've analyzed about 90,000 unique words. Some of these are from the KJV version of the bible, some are from the Book of The Law, and others are from a random dictionary list.From the original post.

Because thus far I am not seeing where your sense of *relevance* is justified in any way that I can really grasp very clearly...The words that add to the same amount are grouped by their number. Abrahadabra adds to 57, and magician adds to 57. These words have the same resonance, and thus the same numeration value. The relevance is how each word in the SAME number set relates to each other word in the SAME number set. There isn't a relevance between different number sets, well not from what I can see at this point.

One of my previous posts gives an example on how I relate the words in the number set 57.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 03:27 AM
yes, thank you...I just found it...

I fear that when we start talking *resonance* we are embarking on a path that cannot ever be measured as either sound or valid, logistically speaking. *resonance*, according to who? according to what? I agree that the words you have hyphenated in your example could be deemed vaguely similar but look at the percentages...they just aren't all that impressive...you could just about flip a coin with any random spattering of words and achieve better...

But I am honestly not interested in ditzing your efforts. I just think there is a hole in your logic thus far that will need to be revisited...I don't think your challenge can be met because it isn't a logical challenge, so far as I can determine.

Perhaps if you confined yourself to a more concentrated pool...or if you are going to go random then go all out and incorporate the complete Oxford Dictionary or something. But even so, *resonance* is a highly *iffy* litmus test...

edit: Most logicians that I am aware of would be much more impressed if you went with actual word-definitions for instance...words that actually bear some logical resemblance in practical definition. I am not sure this can even be accomplished but if it could be demonstrated it would certainly be an eye-opener... Resonance itself is not likely to be taken too seriously by anybody with even the remotest skeptical abilities... It's obviously extremely subjective!

addendum: from an alchemical perspective all words bear some degree of resonant correlation to every other words, and this presents us with a logistical problem. If we are going to use resonance as a gauge, then it requires some structuring to be effective. We will need to determine in advance what qualifies and what does not qualify as relevant *resonance*...If we are just relying on what we imagine to be a common consensus, our analysis will never really get off the ground at all. You may develop a following, but you will not have established any real or lasting truth.

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 03:57 AM
I agree that the words you have hyphenated in your example could be deemed vaguely similar but look at the percentages...they just aren't all that impressive...you could just about flip a coin with any random spattering of words and achieve better...No, you cannot. I have analyzed this set with other English gematria numeration systems and have not found the quality of association that the a-z/1-26 system yields. I challenged people so they might be able to debunk this.

But I am honestly not interested in ditzing your efforts. I just think there is a hole in your logic thus far that will need to be revisited...I don't think your challenge can be met because it isn't a logical challenge, so far as I can determine.Do explain why the challenge can't be met. Please point out the flaws! If this is indeed illogical, then I'll change my view. It doesn't bother me.

Perhaps if you confined yourself to a more concentrated pool...or if you are going to go random then go all out and incorporate the complete Oxford Dictionary or something. But even so, *resonance* is a highly *iffy* litmus test...This is what I plan on doing at some point. Like I said, I've used nearly 100,000 unique words to use in my research. I would like to analyze and compile the ENTIRE English language in the future. We're talking about millions of words.

edit: Most logicians that I am aware of would be much more impressed if you went with actual word-definitions for instance...words that actually bear some logical resemblance in practical definition. I am not sure this can even be accomplished but if it could be demonstrated it would certainly be an eye-opener... Resonance itself is not likely to be taken too seriously by anybody with even the remotest skeptical abilities... It's obviously extremely subjective!Very true, I will have to take this into consideration and re-evaluate my work. It is extremely subjective. The word associations change with each person. Two words that seem relative to one person, might not even be relative for another person. I guess this is where things start falling apart now that I think about it.

addendum: from an alchemical perspective all words bear some degree of resonant correlation to every other words, and this presents us with a logistical problem.Very good point. This makes me think!

If anything, there is a very interesting psychological quirk happening with this. If we take this view, then the quirk is persistent through all languages and gematria numeration system. It could very well be used to gain a clear psychological snapshot of an individual and their beliefs.

If you want to be technical, everything breaks down at some point, and all things lose meaning.

You may develop a following, but you will not have established any real or lasting truth.I could careless about developing a following. All I want is truth, and to push the boundaries of my mind. To try and find the end. This is why I wanted to discuss this at abrahadabra. I knew I would have the attention of some of the best thinkers in the occult scene.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 04:14 AM
well, let me confine myself to 57 then:
57: aught, height, eighth, alight, builded, might, fungi, mediate, saddhu, deaths, hasted, tides, seeth, mahatma, human, likeable, least, steal, shield, stem, blinked, omit, dilemma, abound, samekh, daffodil, demigod, magdalen, befallen, befalls, boast, gleams, embodied, amendable, defends, bless, golden, longed, golds, pineal, sleep, ions, fooled, pangs, jolt, napalm, bloom, birth, joined, drift, moon, heater, differed, heralded, regime, rent, emerged, breakable, ringed, brides, debris, refine, harken, easier, fires, shark, risk, garland, enabler, blares, farms, labored, snare, repeal, roll, fnord, absorb, roads, detect, hitched, eros, sore, rose, teachable, celibate, afflict, appear, culled, sabbatic, infect, seduce, clung, casual, clubs, major, depict, magician, lacking, abrahadabra, blackened, schemed, vitae, fairer, alliance, changes, breeder, darker, divided, reefer, fancies, claims, cost, channel, balances, veiled, peaches, congeal, pieces, given, palaces, oceans, cherub, wheat, crafted, crumb, bickered, kicker, chimera, enrich, richen, walled, wink, ascribe, actor, orchid, sacker, chorded, crammed, wiped, glow, croaked, prick, below, bowel, swan, sow, lux, wood, jews, sexed, accepted, charred, fewer, achieved, deceived, jinx, cancels, shady, lays, slay, clove, winch, crackled, anarchic, mary, city, acidify, crawl, decays, waxed, cocky, crazed, sion, megiddo, jebus, goetiaIf we take only the words highlighted in red and assert there is some kind of special resonance between these words, how long do you think it will take us to weed out the words that really aren't so resonant afterall? Is abrahadabra really especially relevant to mary, or sion, or rose or celibate etc? And should abrahadabra even be our kingpin word here at all? All we really have established is that these words all add to 57...that's about it. Now I will admit that abrahadabra and magician and veiled and even moon and pinneal are a reasonably related group of words but that only amounts to a very small handful of words in a fairly big list. Returning to my original point about English Qabbalahs in general, I would be willing to bet good money that the traditional AIQ BKR does better than this...have you checked this? You should always provide a negative to weigh against a positive. Perhaps this is the whole problem thus far...we are left with nothing to base any kind of rational judgment upon. We might agree that there exists a hint of possibility here but we are standing on very shaky ground concluding anything at all without at least something against which it might be compared.

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 04:22 AM
If we take only the words highlighted in red and assert there is some kind of special resonance between these words, how long do you think it will take us to weed out the words that really aren't so relevant afterall?Keep in mind these are the associations that make the MOST sense in my mind. Also, I was very conservative with the words I bolded/highlighted.

Is abrahadabra really especially relevant to mary, or sion, or rose or celibate etc? And should abrahadabra even be our kingpin word here at all?These make the most sense to me. I especially relate mary to rose, sion, pineal, vitae, moon, birth, pangs, and celibate.

Now I will admit that abrahadabra and magician and veiled and even moon and pinneal are a reasonably related group of words but that only amounts to a very small handful of words in a fairly big list.I agree with you on this. There are many different levels of relation and association. I really shouldn't have even tried to point out the best ones. It wasn't meant to be taken to heart. It was only meant to help to show some of the associations, but after all, the relevance of these associations are subjective and a product of my mind.

Returning to my original point about English Qabbalah's in general, I would be willing to bet good money that the traditional AIQ BKR does better than this...have you checked this?What are the numeration values? I will do a litmus test and see if this one works better than the other.

Perhaps this is the whole problem thus far...we are left with nothing to base any kind of rational judgment upon. We might agree that there exists a hint of possibility here but we are standing on very shaky ground concluding anything at all without at least something against which it might be compared.This is why I used the system you posted. I wanted to show that it wouldn't work like the system I used in the original post, but it was flaws since you started tacking zeros onto the numbers. Maybe we didn't have a large enough collection of words to do you system any justice, or maybe I didn't read through it well enough.

-------

I think I messed everything up when I highlighted/bolded the first example. This was meant for YOU to notice the associations. I shouldn't have pointed them out since they are different for each person.

m1thr0s
01-15-2008, 04:32 AM
well, there again...the system I posted was tested against the Book of the Law alone and this compared against corresponding values in 777. And, in fact, this did produce a startling number of viable correspondences, but I took the matter no further than this since my own work is not really aimed at any of this anyway and I had more pressing matters to attend to.

But there it is you see...we wind up comparing apples to oranges and this won't do...we can't really say that yours is better than mine or vice versa because they are operating on two entirely different basis...mine sufficed to get me where I was going in the moment, so in that sense it was very successful.

you can check this chart (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=1430&postcount=4) for traditional Hebrew & Greek letter values but unfortunately it doesn't display exact English values...these can be found elsewhere and I am pretty sure I have posted one somewhere that does...I'll try to find it.

For right now I need to knock off and get a little sleep. Thank you for a very engaging conversation...I do hope any areas we might be in disagreement upon only serve to make us both a little wiser...

m1thr0s

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 04:53 AM
well, there again...the system I posted was tested against the Book of the Law alone and this compared against corresponding values in 777.Yeah, I didn't relate it to 777. After a sudden realization I had a few minutes ago I don't doubt you're wrong.

Thank you for a very engaging conversation...I do hope any areas we might be in disagreement upon only serve to make us both a little wiser...Oh indeed, I just had part of my world view shattered because of this conversation. It's not a bad thing, oh no, not at all, but it does leave me with the horrible, joyful, blissful, great thought that NOTHING IS REAL. Like, almost absolute comprehension and integration of this.

When we work with gematria, we only impart seeming order on chaos. This order is false, there is no _REAL_ order. Something may appear to be ordered, but that's because our current mental/psychological mindset at the time of perception and processing determines the object or concept in question to be concrete. All this assumes that EVERYTHING UP TO THAT POINT HAD TO BE TRUE, and that's just wrong. Absolutely wrong.

My current situation reminds me of this: I know nothing, I am the fool. Just yeah, I'm left scratching my head in wonder, watching the meaning of everything dissolve.

You cannot read this reply and truly understand what I'm saying without having experienced it. Reading and storing it as truth will not work. The mental processes leading up to this realization HAVE to be EXPERIENCED, and yes, this is a disclaimer. :)

Kuroyagi
01-15-2008, 06:36 AM
When we work with gematria, we only impart seeming order on chaos.
Its interesting to compare these "statistical" methods ("gematria") with poetry and literature. Cause when writing a story or a poem you also can make associations between any words you want to, yet according to certain rules (grammar and custom) and in a linear frame-work, yet also in respect to a certain aim, intent or meaning. Perhaps the problem with any foreign i.e. "English"-QBL is the structure of this language that to some extent does not fit such gematrical methods- being not statistical or accumulative as they are- but more based on linear logic, the letters based on sound and not on images; and those foreign languages, like Hebrew or Chinese, that were mentioned have that accumulative or pictorial aspect contained in their characters or in their grammar itself: be it that the letters of their alphabets are also pictures, be it that they practically have no clearly defined modi and groups of words- like adjectives, nouns, verbs- as e.g. Chinese. This sameness has the advantage that all signs ("words") could stand more equally next to one another- are accumulative or also: as pictures, while in English (obviously) words like "to do" (verbs) are belonging to another category than "book" (nouns), and thereby one has more problems to consolidate these differences in the written language already from the start IF they are not brought into a certain logical con-text, and this is in our regions here the one of (a flowing), continuous text...

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 06:53 AM
... being not statistical or accumulative as they are - but more based on linear logic, the letters based on sound and not on images ...The letters may not have a definite image associated with them, but the words do. I think that's the way to go with "English Gematria."

It just doesn't work when you interpret each character in the word separately, but the words are able to be interpreted.

Kuroyagi
01-15-2008, 07:05 AM
Ok e.g. the word "to do" doesnt have one- at least not for me, and the fact that I instantly could come up with an example means that there are tons more...;) (think of more abstract ones like "concept", "ideosyncrsis", etc...)

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 07:14 AM
I don't think words of two characters or less have any real concrete image associations. That's why "English Gematria" doesn't "work well" with real small words.

Kuroyagi
01-15-2008, 07:53 AM
Small words such as "ax" or "ox"? :p

deviadah
01-15-2008, 09:32 AM
I think this work is valid, but I don't think it stands on its own - as most things. With the application of synergy true gnosis will spring forth I am sure. The work you've done here is not the beginning or the end, but a cog in the machine... if that is an important cog or not - well as have been seen in this thread different people think differently and that is ok. Once all the cogs are assembled a greater image of the machine will be visible!

Keep it up!

:cool:

BeautifulEvil
01-15-2008, 10:54 PM
Small words such as "ax" or "ox"?Now you're just taking my words out of context! You know what I mean, I know what I mean. Like I said, it doesn't work "well" -- that doesn't mean it doesn't work at all.

Thanks for the encouragement deviadah! I will continue my work with this, but I will now take a different approach to the matter. I had a brief and powerful moment of true gnosis last night. Really wicked too!

I'm really ready to comprehend the next big thing that will bring this work into a better light.

I wanted to let everybody know I designed a site for this research. It's still in the process of being completed, but most of the functionality should work at this stage. Please check out www.englishgematria.com.

deviadah
01-20-2008, 11:24 PM
I wanted to let everybody know I designed a site for this research. It's still in the process of being completed, but most of the functionality should work at this stage. Please check out www.englishgematria.com.

Have a look at this thread:

Gematria Revisited... (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=140)

It might be your cup of tea!

:cool:

Kuroyagi
01-21-2008, 07:51 PM
Yeah dont worry about it. I have very peculiar standards when it comes to magic and the things that I expect from a system and how efficient it has to be and in case of language-gematria it doesnt suffice me to take out only certain words or parts of the lingustic spectrum, but it must rather be an abstraction of the language as a whole. I have- I must admit a very -non-technical understanding of language which is IMO the only way to approach it in-system anyway. Should I learn gematria I will learn enough Greek or Hewbrew, then...(or not bother at all)....this is what I deem as "most effective" to me, dunno yet have to look into QBL if I have time in this life...though what m1. alluded to seems ok, too yet is also more a way to be able to not be restricted by language or to circumvent its (in this context)- disadvantageous structure and thereby is also a sort of "cheating"- that leads the thing ad absurdum, but can be necessary when one aims for Nature or Change itself and discards dated cultural tools by that process...anyway, we have to work with the tools we see as the most effective; what dev. said about synergy is true: we can approach the subject from various angles and show what we know in respect to the topic, and it can even have the advantage to be inspirational or to improve your gematria by incorporating some ideas you heard here...so even complete antagonism is utterly useful...just dont lose your motivation/enthusiasm!

Oroboros
07-15-2008, 01:13 AM
I am in complete agreement with Beautiful Evil that the normal Alphabet Order of English is correct, which the A-Z = 1-26 Order is based upon--its Place Values. If one posits a different number code, one must also posit a different Alphabet Order. Example: if you posit W as 16, you must place W in the 16th Place Value now, & be prepared to alter the common order of the English Alphabet. "To obtain the order is to obtain the value". It is this way with all historical Grammatometric Orders, & English is no exception.

There is no other Order based on true Grammatometric Theory that has been "tried & tested", for none are so bold as to want to arrange the natural & beautiful flowing Order of the common English Alphabet. They do not want to re-arrange the dictionaries by it, or sing it to their kids. They know their mental masturbation is false when it comes down to it.

I think his proof is lacking only (by resting it on a few personally meaningful Grammatometrics); but mine is not. I worked it out theoretically (as contained in my unpublished LIBER MXI GRAMMATOMETRIA), as well as truly solving AL II:76 by it, which I will freely share upon request (but not here, as its formatting will be ruined).

You can find some of the Grammatometric theory shared here:

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2240.phtml

OROBOROS

m1thr0s
07-15-2008, 02:14 AM
I am in complete agreement with Beautiful Evil that the normal Alphabet Order of English is correct, which the A-Z = 1-26 Order is based upon--its Place Values...the problem I have with this assertion is simply that it would seem to be rooted entirely within the subjective. What this means is that it may be right for you and/or those who agree with you, but should another person or group of persons come along and assert a completely different arrangement, it would be necessary to extend the same courtesy to them, based solely upon a subjective criterion. And in either case, or a thousand cases just like it...where is the *incontrovertible* proof? By what standard or underlying principle can we possibly assert that one sound property precedes another chronologically?

Universal chronologies are the province of numbers...not letters. Unless letters can come into some sort of exact compliance with the numbers, they cannot claim to be universally chronological. Rather what we get is *consensual* chronologies that can only be said to be chronological so long as a majority of people insist that they are. The english alphabet has only come into any kind of chronological standard within the last 150 years or thereabouts, and that standard is not genuinely universal at all. In Shakespear's time, for instance, no such alphabetical chronology existed and even spellings of people's names might vary from person to person or time to time without any of them being universally correct or incorrect...

Alphabetical organizations are principally a matter of popular consensus. So how on earth can we legitimately assert any alphabetical chronology to be universally correct?

This is one of the reasons I prefer Trigrammaton as a basis to numerology, since the *letters* (ie, trigrams) are, in fact, answerable to validatable numerical protocols...although Crowley's arrangement was completely oblivious of this intrinsic property and thus bears no resemblance to a true numerical chronology... It is a fine piece of poetic insight and is pointed in the right direction nonetheless.

As for the power to reveal hidden principles in other important books such as Liber Al vel Legis and others...this sort of thing has been going on for centuries and I have seen perhaps a dozen English Qabbalah's thus far that all have some ability to achieve this. I really cannot say that any of them are wrong, which, by the same token, means that none of them can truly be said to be right either. It boils down to what you like or otherwise feel most comfortable with and that is all.

But I am not trying to close the book on this or lay down the law or anything like that...I honestly don't understand how people think they have arrived at a bona fide *chronology* with any arrangement of english letters... If you took 26 different kinds of fruit and arranged them however you liked, would that make them *chronological* as well?

I leave open the possibility of being wrong as a matter of course at all times, but in this instance, I just can't see where anybody else is making a whole lot of rational sense.

m1thr0s