What is Meditation ?

[A. Ben-Shema]

There are a great many opinions about what meditation really is. Some say that going into the countryside or sitting on top of a mountain and tuning into nature is a form of meditation. Others might say that concentrating on a candle flame or some other peaceful object is meditation. Yet others might listen to soft soothing music. So many different methods, which can each and all bring a certain amount of 'peace of mind', relaxation, and a feeling of well being. No doubt about it! But I would personally call all these things CONTEMPLATION, rather than true MEDITATION.

In my opinion, genuine MEDITATION takes place only when one has cut off ALL exoteric senses - the outer sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and feelings - and most of all: THOUGHTS. Now this requires overcoming (mastering) one's 'lower' mind - a very difficult thing to do. Perhaps THE most difficult thing of ALL! This is why a Spiritual Teacher is so important, for a genuine Spiritual Master will be able to explain the method, and reveal the 'keys' which enable one to overcome this powerful mind and enter one's innermost Sanctuary - the true TEMPLE of PEACE (i.e. the real Jerusalem = 'City of Peace').

So, imo, Genuine Meditation is EXPERIENCING the inner true Spiritual SELF - the Mystic LIGHT, SOUND, NECTAR, and LOGOS (Holy NAME or WORD of God).

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding :)

[Kuroyagi]

Meditation can indeed be many things to me: there are two major paradigms that I follow here:

One is more Eastern style (I like Zazen especially) that is very much in congruence with the things you have outlined- "no mind" stuff basically- "zuo wang"- sit and forget...first about your body then about your thoughts etc...this is very relaxing at first (even e.g. just lying still and doing nothing 5minutes a day has this effect of balancing me for the whole day) or can be even enlightening "unexpectantly" as you described in your intro too- yet for me there is also a half/hybrid form here where you will allow stray thoughts "in" for creativity's sake...(the "flashes" are somehow not so planned and happen only at the higher order when you strive for no-mind but will "attain" them w/o intent- I'd be interested in the things you wrote about "preserving/holding" that state), yet also this "simpler" allowing-in-of-thoughts is very inspirational, often its also named -when in connection with a certain topic/subject or an item like a tarot card- "object-meditation" or "object concentration" and can give new insights or angles on the thing you focus on.

...and this is also the point where I disagree with what you wrote: namely the (also Western form) of meditation -from Greek: meleté- mull things over, to ponder- which is exactly that: contemplation, and this form isnt to be belittled...in recent decades and lets even say centuries- this tradition has been neglected, and supplanted by some vision of mushin stuff from the Far East- yet also the East and especially China has a VERY long tradition in contemplative "pondering" as a way to insight into reality that should not be neglected in my view; all those Han- time graphs, even the Yi Ching itself is very apt to this kind of scrutinizing meditative observation...and so is Western philosophy, on a more general, more abstract level...for example you are reading a word lets say "anarchy" or whatever..and start thinking about that concept let your thoughts roam or think about some experience you had and get so much caught up in your visions or thoughts that you will get very enthusiastic, e.g. cannot sleep anymore...then its wise to write those thoughts down for example...they could connect, they could grow into a book or a philosophy of your own- it is what brings us forth and makes us alive to an extent...well, some of us at least ;)

[Naomi]

I meditate while in motion, and use the five senses as weaponry to reach my goal of samadhi, in the tantric style of discipline, so, no, I do not agree.

You speak of cutting off senses, where in any of the traditional texts do you find this as being suggested? Certainly not in most eastern literature, if we are cutting off the senses, how to we attain complete universe? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

integration in motion dancing with the senses is action meditation

[A. Ben-Shema]

I meditate while in motion, and use the five senses as weaponry to reach my goal of samadhi, in the tantric style of discipline, so, no, I do not agree.

You speak of cutting off senses, where in any of the traditional texts do you find this as being suggested? Certainly not in most eastern literature, if we are cutting off the senses, how to we attain complete universe? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

integration in motion dancing with the senses is action meditation

Well, Yehoshua apparently said, when you pray (i.e. meditate), go alone into your inner sanctuary, and pray to (meditate on) the Father which is hidden.

I am not very familiar with eastern scriptures, but I understand that Siddartha (a Buddha) achieve Enlightenment by sitting and meditating under a tree for several years ~ presumably with eyes and ears closed to the outside world.

The physical (outer) senses only experience the material universe ~ the ever changing world of illusion. The inner (Spiritual) senses may experience the ETERNAL UNCHANGING SPIRITUAL UNIVERSE ~ the REAL world of LIGHT.

PLU :)

[m1thr0s]

the concept of achieving stillness through balanced action has not been dealt with much in the west, so many people have never even had a proper chance to consider this methodology...but it is not without precedent once you begin delving into it.

The Sufi's achieve this through Dance...also through the art of Musicianship. Martial Artists may achieve it through Katas or various active meditation disciplines such as Tai Chi is known for and others. Certain branches of the classical yogas achieve this through highly concentrated physical "rituals" such as Ashtanga Yoga for instance... The list goes on and on really yet we rarely hear it discussed very much at the level of its principle.

In some ways the term "stillness" is a bit of an illusion since Mind itself is never really still, even at the highest levels. The motion of the Tao itself is said to be a spiral motion that is circular in nature and parallels the cycles of nature. What we are actually looking for is more in the way of a "suspension" than an actual stillness specifically - to "suspend" the dyadic mind is to open the doors of perception to that which we call higher mind or also god-consciousness. We can approach this either through deceleration or acceleration but in either instance it is really an advanced equilibrium we are seeking.

We should try not to be defensive about this I think. Some of us are a little more accustomed to these ideas as they have been discussed periodically in this forum, but this is hardly the norm of western culture in general. It is true that these things are better understood in the east and that what has been exported to the west has often been a kind of judgment call as to what the west most immediately required. Things have matured a great deal since the 1930's when the meditation movement into the west really began to pick up a little steam. There is not just one way to approach what we call "stillness", and in many ways approaching this through balanced action makes a lot more sense to active people, despite the fact that it is very rarely taught.

"The stillness in stillness is not the real stillness." - Bruce Lee - Jeet Kun Do Koan.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

http://la.gg/upl/nataraj.jpg

[A. Ben-Shema]

the concept of achieving stillness through balanced action has not been dealt with much in the west, so many people have never even had a proper chance to consider this methodology...but it is not without precedent once you begin delving into it.

The Sufi's achieve this through Dance...also through the art of Musicianship. Martial Artists may achieve it through Katas or various active meditation disciplines such as Tai Chi is known for and others. Certain branches of the classical yogas achieve this through highly concentrated physical "rituals" such as Ashtanga Yoga for instance... The list goes on and on really yet we rarely hear it discussed very much at the level of its principle.

In some ways the term "stillness" is a bit of an illusion since Mind itself is never really still, even at the highest levels. The motion of the Tao itself is said to be a spiral motion that is circular in nature and parallels the cycles of nature. What we are actually looking for is more in the way of a "suspension" than an actual stillness specifically - to "suspend" the dyadic mind is to open the doors of perception to that which we call higher mind or also god-consciousness. We can approach this either through deceleration or acceleration but in either instance it is really an advanced equilibrium we are seeking.

We should try not to be defensive about this I think. Some of us are a little more accustomed to these ideas as they have been discussed periodically in this forum, but this is hardly the norm of western culture in general. It is true that these things are better understood in the east and that what has been exported to the west has often been a kind of judgment call as to what the west most immediately required. Things have matured a great deal since the 1930's when the meditation movement into the west really began to pick up a little steam. There is not just one way to approach what we call "stillness", and in many ways approaching this through balanced action makes a lot more sense to active people, despite the fact that it is very rarely taught.

"The stillness in stillness is not the real stillness." - Bruce Lee - Jeet Kun Do Koan.

m1thr0s

I know the Hari Krishna sect and the Whirling Dervishes (to mention but two) perform such energetic dances which, I believe, give an experience of ecstasy.

But we must be very wary of these types of experience ~ what they actually are, and how they come about.

Voodoo worshipers and many evangelical Christians also use similar (physical) methods to bring on ecstatic trances. For a detailed study of these phenomena of physiologically induced states of ecstasy, see e.g. SARGANT, W., The Mind Possessed, (Heinemann, London, 1973).

PLU :)

[Naomi]

ah, the hare krishnas dance because of ecstasy...actually, I think, it goes both ways

one can be made to dance with the ecstasy of present abiding knowledge of krsna's divine consciousness in the worshipper.

and one can dance in hopes of achieving it (fake it til you make it)

[Dragon]

meditation (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=meditation) c.1225, "discourse on a subject," from L. meditationem (nom. meditatio), from meditatus, pp. of meditari "to meditate, to think over, consider," from PIE base *med- "to measure, limit, consider, advise" (cf. Gk. medesthai "think about," medon "ruler," L. modus "measure, manner," modestus "moderate," modernus "modern," mederi "to heal," medicus "physician," Skt. midiur "I judge, estimate," Welsh meddwl "mind, thinking," Goth. miton, O.E. metan "to measure"). Meaning "act of meditating, continuous calm thought upon some subject" is from 1390.
Source -

http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/header.jpg (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php)


~D~

[A. Ben-Shema]

meditation (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=meditation) c.1225, "discourse on a subject," from L. meditationem (nom. meditatio), from meditatus, pp. of meditari "to meditate, to think over, consider," from PIE base *med- "to measure, limit, consider, advise" (cf. Gk. medesthai "think about," medon "ruler," L. modus "measure, manner," modestus "moderate," modernus "modern," mederi "to heal," medicus "physician," Skt. midiur "I judge, estimate," Welsh meddwl "mind, thinking," Goth. miton, O.E. metan "to measure"). Meaning "act of meditating, continuous calm thought upon some subject" is from 1390.
Source -

http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/header.jpg (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php)


~D~

Of course, we cannot really expect true SPIRITUAL definitions from intellectuals who compose dictionaries.

PLU :)

[m1thr0s]

I know the Hari Krishna sect and the Whirling Dervishes (to mention but two) perform such energetic dances which, I believe, give an experience of ecstasy.It doesn't really matter how you try to debate it...if you cannot understand this principle at the level of first-hand experience it will be nearly impossible to understand it at all. What you are really doing here is presenting an argument from authority and what I am telling you is that this authority is incomplete...you are only really apprised of half of the equation. Stillness itself can only really be achieved as a matter of balanced opposites and motion is actually the most natural and least deceptive way to accomplish this...in practice. Breath in - Breath Out...it's all about balanced cycles. Slow them down or speed them up...whatever works best for you is fine but either method is just as valid...not one more valid than the other.

What you are referring to as "ecstacy", the dervishes themselves consider to be union with the divine...no different than the samadhi state of the yogi's...some of whom utilize acceleration, some deceleration. In point of fact, they all manipulate motion itself in some form or another. We cannot stop our atoms from spinning...it is built right into the fabric of Mind & Matter from the highest levels on down. What we can do is mediate the balance...nobody ever stops the clock...it cannot be done...it's an illusion.

But we must be very wary of these types of experience ~ what they actually are, and how they come about.As a matter of form we must be very "wary" of any and all assumptions...not just the ones we are less familiar with...

m1thr0s

[A. Ben-Shema]

It doesn't really matter how you try to debate it...if you cannot understand this principle at the level of first-hand experience it will be nearly impossible to understand it at all. What you are really doing here is presenting an argument from authority and what I am telling you is that this authority is incomplete...you are only really apprised of half of the equation.
Well, in my teen years I used to play drums for a variety of heavy rock bands. Now the shear energy and excitement created by and personally put into this form of "head-banging" music used to give me a feeling of great elation ~ what one might call a huge 'high' which would last for hours after a concert. I would thus assume that so-called 'religious' dancing and whirling would give a similar effect, only in a religious setting.
W. Sargant, in the book I previously mentioned, gives his findings on many studies of this type of behaviour and experience.
One other thing to be considered is that some people (the aged, crippled, etc.) are unable to perform such practices. Therefore it seems strange that such a requirement for mystic ecstasy would truly come from God.

This is just my opinion on the subject, and, of course, is open to discussion.

PLU :)

[Kuroyagi]

When one asks a good Zen teacher what it is he will teach he often answers: to learn how to act. But from the outside the practice he means by that -the form- seems to be very still or quietistic...there are different phrases for those things in various traditions so it may also be a problem of communication.

Exactly that same example- Rock-music- is also mentioned by Brad Warner who propagtes Zen in the U.S.: he said IIRC, that people love to hear punk rock and go to concerts cause in those instances they are able to completely "forget about themselves"-cf. the word ecstasy- and this: is what Zazen for example will teach you, too, in a more directed and methodical way. Makes sense to me.

[m1thr0s]

I don't recall claiming that every form action culminates in samadhi and that isn't what I am asserting at all. In general I assume that active-meditation practices must be focused on the divine to reach the divine, although I am less cognizant of the Zen position and would need to consider this more.

Also...as regarding disabled people etc...again the point is being missed since active meditations can be purely internalized...one doesn't necessarily need to jump around or anything silly like this. One can simply visualize certain "active meditation" formulas...so like a unicursal hexagram for instance, which is capable of going round and round indefinitely, can amount to an active meditation visualization practice. You assign a mantra value to it and suddenly you have an active mantra-yantra (sound & light) mandala that dances rhythmically as you visualize it...

A more sophisticated application is a martial arts form I have seen (can't recall the stlyle's name off-hand) that cycles through the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching as a set of 64 poses...these move with great precision and form the basis of an entire meditation system. This is hardly some sort of head-banging rave action but is specifically designed to elevate both body and mind in perfect balance.

This is using balanced motion to achieve a state of stillness...or as I prefer to call it...suspension.

m1thr0s

[Dragon]

Chen Tai-Chi The old form taught at the school is called 13 postures. It consists of 13 sections and has 64 moves. The second form is called Pao Twi (cannon fist). The learning of chen sa chin (silk reeling energy), circles around the body's meridians like latitudes around the globe. The precise movements will give extraordinary power. This also provides a form of moving meditation in time.

Source -

http://martial-art-guide.blogspot.com/

a good little quick reference page.


Is that the one m1?


~D~

[m1thr0s]

That may be it Dragon...thanks for the link-work...I'd need to see a few postures to be sure but I do remember it as a tai-chi form...

m1

[Naomi]

The trick is really staying suspended for extended periods. This is why many individuals simply withdraw from the world - it simply is not conducive to meditation practice to be around worldly affairs, and the benefits gleaned from accurate and powerful meditation are far more rare and valuable than anything the marketplace offers.

Exercisse also add a poweful mix of chemicals into our body that augment pleasure, endorphins for nstance -tthese are addictive and a really natural way to get high. Furthermore the body is the universe in many cosmologies especially tantra. By moving the body you are moving the univese. The universe is eternally in a state of motion, not inertia or stillness.

The entirety of the Yin principle itself remains still while the ever active forces of Yang disturb its surface - achieve one with the Tao and you realize perfection.

[frater luciferi]

my own meditative practices usually revolve around four different kinds---

A> zazen empty mindfullness...which is usually combined with repeptitive musick...i actually have a few good tapes of japanese instrumentalists that are very condusive to that...emptying my mind and trying to reach and find that connection of the outter realm...that point where you reach mental "clarity"

b. meditative or "thoughtful" walking...i like hiking around..its good to get blood flowing in the brain and i find my mental processes/faculties work best when i am walking..and walking to me is a very meditative process. equally so is swimming for me...

c. musickal meditation---this to me is a process where i downtune my accoustic and in the zazen posture try to play open tunings in a more improvisation fashion..trying to both combine mindfullness in practicum with the exploration of the musickal notes...

d. focused "astral" meditation-- simply put just a mental exercise where i go into my own subconcious and use its power to create paradigmal "extants" and explore syncronicities of the "spritual" ...have also found iit to be immensely powerful in creating intellectual "ephiphanys" under certain depths of a trance state.