Black Flame

[chaos_mage4]

Hello everyone, I have a question about the Black Flame. What is it? I mean, I've been reading about it, and was wondering what it really was, and I never thought to just ask lol. So, what is the black flame, because I thought it was linked to your True Will, but, in another forum I was talking about it a little, and a member there said it wasn't.
Thanks in advance,
~Christopher

[Luciftias]

I've never heard anyone define it before, but it calls to mind the flames in hell as described by John Milton as follows: "Yet from those flames No light, but rather darkness visible."
The term "darkness visible" is a deeply meaningful symbol to me with several layers of interpretation. An awareness of what lies in shadow is one meaning. haha. Reminds me of that tag line from the old radio show which was turned into a really cool movie staring Alec Baldwin: "What lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"

[chaos_mage4]

How embarrassing of me lol, I looked in the back of Luciferian Witchraft and found a definition of it! I didn't know it had one until now really, but it said the gift to deify one's self basically.
It's a pretty interesting conecpt, in my opinion.
Thanks,
~Christopher

[Kain]

How embarrassing of me lol, I looked in the back of Luciferian Witchraft and found a definition of it! I didn't know it had one until now really, but it said the gift to deify one's self basically.From the few definitions that I've seen, and keeping in mind that it is a quite subjective concept, it is usually described like you say as the inherent ability that allows individuality (and as a consequence, self-deification). I've found it a very intriguing concept, although admittedly there are a few very important questions/conundrums coming up if one adopts such a view on things.

Kain

[chaos_mage4]

Ah thanks for responding Luciftias and Kain! Now, Kain, I agree it's a pretty cool concept, and I've only recently heard of it. Yeah, all I know of it is that individual thing, along with being a god, but not what's after becoming a god. Like, what happens after you become a god? I've heard some things about it a while back, but I forget it now.
Thanks,
~Christopher

[Kain]

Now, Kain, I agree it's a pretty cool concept, and I've only recently heard of it. Yeah, all I know of it is that individual thing, along with being a god, but not what's after becoming a god. Like, what happens after you become a god? I've heard some things about it a while back, but I forget it now.
Thanks,
~ChristopherWell, that's a hard one, considering the subjectivity and finality of the question chaos_mage4. How would you personally define being a god? You see, there are naturally quite a lot of varying opinions as to what the state itself entails, and under which conditions can it validly come about. Even asking about what's after could be a bit arguable if we're talking about the whole "Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Ominscience" thing.

Kain

[Alarum]

I think the whole 'God' thing isnt meant to be taken literally. I'd say you have reached self deification when you have absolute mastery of the selves... but again.. that extremely subjective. I think its only something the individual can know.
This Black Flame concept is an interesting one though.

[Kain]

I think the whole 'God' thing isnt meant to be taken literally. I'd say you have reached self deification when you have absolute mastery of the selves... but again.. that extremely subjective. I think its only something the individual can know. Well, it is certainly something extremely subjective and up to the individual...you see, taking into account the anatomical data avaiallable to us, and the ramiffications of that data, even the actual difference between the fully integrated Self and so-called "God" cannot be easily defined. I mean, where does Self end and where does "God" begin? Not an easy thing to answer really, as the whole "made you in my own image" part actually holds exceptionally true as far as subtle anatomy has anything to say on the subject, and once we manage to define a solid enough way of ascensional progress (i.e. Self-Deification) it is quite hard to consider it ends in a particular stage, as it is ever-recursive and proportionally redefines itself and it's span of influence.

Of course, that is my view of the subject anyway, as the notion of Self-Deification is a very subjective one and opinions greatly vary even from practitioners of the same path. But I think it is important to consider that the boundaries are not in fact so well-defined for us, and perhaps we may be metaphorically "selling ourselves cheap" in the sense of self-limiting our potential bounds of conscious expansion and anatomical potential. The Black Flame is certainly an interesting notion though, and according to a discussion I had today, it seems some further knowledge on it's principle can be gleaned from the books of Alice Bailey and Djwhal Khul...I guess I'm up for some research...hehe...

Kain

[TLF]

Hello everyone, I have a question about the Black Flame. What is it? I mean, I've been reading about it, and was wondering what it really was, and I never thought to just ask lol. So, what is the black flame, because I thought it was linked to your True Will, but, in another forum I was talking about it a little, and a member there said it wasn't.
Thanks in advance,
~Christopher

“There is a god – in humans and in nature. He is Lucifer, the light that breaks forth from darkness, the masculine manifestation of the feminine primeval principle that made him and rule through him, “the Black Flame”, the projection of life’s core itself. A goddess unified with her god – a creative force in the universe. Lucifer is god in a time without gods.”

(from: http://www.neoluciferianchurch.org) - a quote used in the Neo-Luciferian Manifesto.

[m1thr0s]

It's funny the difference in slants different cultures take. In the Chinese system, Yang is often defined as *Banners in the Light* while Yin is defined as *Light in the Dark*...in which case the so-called Black Flame is really just a way of emphasizing the Yin force in things...*Formation* is said to be its principle in qabbalistic terms...

m1thr0s

[Marcus_]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

^

Are we talking about forces in relation to these theoretical principals?

Or...

(Gets sigil)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e378/fruitpooper/Dusignoshoofthnun.png


The Dusignoshoofthnun: (Dus ig no shoof thnun)


Intent:
Processes/generates a physically/spiritually Correlated forms of dark-matter.


Use:
The raw "DarkEnergy"[DE] comes in through the upper left extremity of the sigil; then it moves down through a process, eventually entering the swirling area under the half-circle[which has an arrow above it pointing down upon it]; in this swirling area is where the main fusion of the energy takes place. The eventual product is put into the circle below it, which splits this energy into formats relating to all of the many sorts of energies which a human mind-body uses.
-
Ideally, one should print this page and then set an obsidian relic upon the main center which the user finds most useful at that time.


Caution:
Just like anything else which is powerful, this can be abused and become harmful. If taken in foolishly, it may cause a sort of biomagnetic "explosion", drastically distorting the aura of the body, causing pain or illness. To cure this, practice meditative self-repair, whilst waring ZeroPointEnergy plates, chakra balancing crystals, tachyon-cells, etc. Anything for repair and balance of the aura. One must return one's energy to normal pressure-levels...


Only take into your body the balanced, fully processed form of DE. Take in what is relative to your own way of existing. Do not take in a vast, incompatible rush of churning dark force; instead, take in the finest parts by themselves.


The eye is meant to see light, but within a lightless realm, such things are on the verge of unknowable, so yee must build for thyself a spiritual body -- made of the other side: the darkness. This means creating a new self: a soul made of the stuff which most persons have never known, which works in unison with the rest of the layers of the body.


Once one finds the most usable and stable part of the many sorts of darkness, this should be gathered in and used to recreate dark-matter versions of all of the physical organs, the acquired astral body parts, the soul[s] and the integrations. Hold these new parts within the physical body, and within the upper-dimensional-core. Before dealing seriously with the realm of the dark, one must first build a means for doing such.


Can you use this sigil to make a sort of black-fire..?:confused:

[Picatrix]

This seems a bit too advanced for me. I've just heard God being described as the "Black Light", it's said to be ultra-violet or something.

[m1thr0s]

Can you use this sigil to make a sort of black-fire..?:confused:sure, if you concentrated hard enough.

It's artistically elegant but mathematically zip...means nothing at all without the symbol key.

Do you happen to know where this originates? The term Dusignoshoofthnun just leads right back to this thread when you Google it. Spelling off maybe?

m1thr0s

[Frater CaO]

To me the Black Flame is the essence of Chaos.
There is alot of more information to be found here, I agree with most of it:

http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/

[m1thr0s]

nice artwork on that site. I'm not real keen on the whole us-vs-them rhetoric but there are some good points raised from what little I was able to read just in passing...(I like the lucifer=satan argument for instance...that's a fresh perspective worth examining)

I think these groups make a huge tactical error when they go out of their way to harp on the inferiority of the masses...if an elite is truly elite it should just pull it's head out of its ass and be whatever it is....do whatever it intends to do etc...

I also am not impressed with all kinds of obtuse claims to superior secret knowledge that is somehow inherently qualified to talk down to the rest of us. I think occultism is addicted to this shit personally and all too often fails to comprehend the persuasive power of transparency. If you're so altogether smarter or better informed than everybody else, you should really have no problem spelling that out in plain english. If your superior intelligence is so fragile that it cannot withstand a little old-fashioned scrutiny, maybe it isn't quite ready for this world afterall...

but these are issues I have with "dark doctrine" groups in general...not meaning to single out just this one group or anything...

m1thr0s

[Frater CaO]

m1thr0s,

I agree, alot of nice artwork on that site indeed :)
I also agree with you that it is quite stupid with all this elite fuss going on.
Seem to be running in the blood with all of these sinister little emo hobbits running around or something.
Yeah I know what you mean, it seems they cant escape this constant drivel.
Personally, I think its really conterproductive for the whole "satanist cause" or whatever. One main thing with Satanism (and other ideologies too for that matter) is that one should strife for ones individual progress and development, and frankly just mind ones own damn business.. instead it seems "these people" have a thing for getting stuck with their need to feel superior, or whatever it is, and almost stops evolving completely because of it.
Im not part of this group if you might have thought so, but I do see alot of interesting stuff inbetween the lines though.
And I personally dont really feel any need to be a part of any groups, like this one or any other either for that matter. I play my own game and if I can find like minded people while doing it then all the better.

/HS!

[m1thr0s]

One main thing with Satanism (and other ideologies too for that matter) is that one should strife for ones individual progress and development, and frankly just mind ones own damn business.. instead it seems "these people" have a thing for getting stuck with their need to feel superior, or whatever it is, and almost stops evolving completely because of it.that's exactly right...well said...mind their own damn business...

that's one of the things I am attempting to rectify to some extent with this site in whatever small way I can. I have a great deal of respect for the so-called "dark-side" but it seriously needs to pull its head out of its ass and start attending to its own intrinsic objectives. The "herd" has its place and it's not all bad...it's just the herd with all its fears and prejudices, superstitions and limitations. These things are all quite well known...there's really no need to belabor the obvious. People who do that just come off as people who are unsure of themselves and their so-called superiority (redundant elitism is ultimately just plain boring).

I'm a *globalist* in my own philosophical outlook and very much interested in whole-systems theory in everything I attack esoterically. So I agree that for the most part these groups just seem to limit that kind of progress. I keep hoping to find something different but I have pretty much resolved that I will probably have to create it to realize it at all...in some small way I think we are doing that right here. The internet is a new tool for creating whole new kinds of community...communities that really are focused "globally" by design.

It's not a perfect tool just yet but it's on the move and the most promising thing we've seen in probably several thousand years...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

It's not a perfect tool just yet but it's on the move and the most promising thing we've seen in probably several thousand years...

m1thr0s

The computer/internet for me, as an art tool
and as a communication device, has completely
changed the way I work, how I distribute the
work and ultimately the work itself...

And it all fits right here on my desk...

Hail Satan... :p

(I wanted to stay on topic)...

[m1thr0s]

Hail Satan... :p

(I wanted to stay on topic)...Satan heard that...rofl...

I should probably speak more of Satanism. I know it confuses the hell out of some of my Thelemite friends how I could possibly ally with anything so seemingly lacking in anything even remotely resembling Higher Genius etc...

And in all fairness I got kind of tired of defending my own vision of Satanism...I look at things in the ahead and in the ahead I see very powerful things for Satanism but not looking very much as it appears today...more firmly rooted in the whole art & science of autotheism and less about the whole goth-grunge fashion bit et al...

there's simply no getting around the axiom "there is no god but man"...sorry, but the buck stops right there folks...it may not be a pleasant truth but it's the most powerful lens we've got and sooner or later we will have to look through it.

Satanism itself is just a term of inconvenience really...confident Satanists don't have to call it anything at all if they don't feel like it. I only refer to the term in lieu of the very few who are out there doing justice to the name and there aren't many of them in truth...it's not the kind of philosophy that requires 24/7 lip service anyway...

m1thr0s

[Frater CaO]

I have a great deal of respect for the so-called "dark-side" but it seriously needs to pull its head out of its ass and start attending to its own intrinsic objectives. The "herd" has its place and it's not all bad...it's just the herd with all its fears and prejudices, superstitions and limitations. These things are all quite well known...there's really no need to belabor the obvious. People who do that just come off as people who are unsure of themselves and their so-called superiority (redundant elitism is ultimately just plain boring).

"The "herd" has its place and it's not all bad..." Its a necessary Evil, so to speak ;)
Yeah, I mean, the "herd" is stuck in the "old Aeon". And they will die with it eventually so I dont get why to even bother wasting a watts energy on them anyway. "Just leave them to face death and they shall perrish!"

I keep hoping to find something different but I have pretty much resolved that I will probably have to create it to realize it at all...in some small way I think we are doing that right here. The internet is a new tool for creating whole new kinds of community...communities that really are focused "globally" by design.

It's not a perfect tool just yet but it's on the move and the most promising thing we've seen in probably several thousand years...

Yeah, Ive been thinking alot of how to approach this community problem and realized long ago that the only way for it to actually work out is to reconstruct the whole thing from the ground up again. Piece by piece we build our temples..
As you said, I also think we are doing it, right Here and right Now.
And I must say that we arent doing such a bad job either, every thought put out in the open ether is a seed planted which will eventually spread like wildfire all over the field when the plants finally decides to grow.

there's simply no getting around the axiom "there is no god but man"...sorry, but the buck stops right there folks...it may not be a pleasant truth but it's the most powerful lens we've got and sooner or later we will have to look through it.

Id say its a very powerful lens too! It also carries with it the funcion to strip away all the "unworthy sheeps" :P So Id say thats another reason not to bother about them, those with the right eyes shall see the truth for what it is.
Those who wont, they wont..

Satanism itself is just a term of inconvenience really...confident Satanists don't have to call it anything at all if they don't feel like it. I only refer to the term in lieu of the very few who are out there doing justice to the name and there aren't many of them in truth...it's not the kind of philosophy that requires 24/7 lip service anyway...

A really great point! I couldnt agree more!
The "most true" or "real" or whatever is the ones who dont feel the need to defend themselves or defend what it is as soon as the question arises.
I think that might be the true essence behind Satanism maybe.
To stand strong on ones own two legs without the need for Any justification, to No one, or to No thing.

/HS! :]

[Copuldaemon]

To me, the black flame is something that you either got or don't. Not to be exclutionary but that's how I see it. If you have it, it doesn't mean that you have it all worked out for you for it needs to be worked on. It's like a gift and a curse or a gift from a curse. That's what I think.

[Frater CaO]

To me, the black flame is something that you either got or don't. Not to be exclutionary but that's how I see it. If you have it, it doesn't mean that you have it all worked out for you for it needs to be worked on. It's like a gift and a curse or a gift from a curse. That's what I think.

Ok, but what is "The Black Flame" to you then?
If it is something that one have, but it needs to be worked on?

[deviadah]

I also agree with you that it is quite stupid with all this elite fuss going on. Seem to be running in the blood with all of these sinister little emo hobbits running around or something.

So I agree that for the most part these groups just seem to limit that kind of progress... It's [the internet] not a perfect tool just yet but it's on the move and the most promising thing we've seen in probably several thousand years...


Can I join the club? :cool:

I have never heard of the expression/concept Black Flame before. My first impression is that it sounds beautiful.

I'm not sure if I get it since everyone in this thread have spoken of it in different ways, but if it is only a word to represent the light within the dark (or the order that comes out of chaos) I think society suffering from the lack of this flame.

[Frater CaO]

Can I join the club? :cool:



Id say you are probably allready a member :P


Anyways, I translated some stuff from the Swedish order MLO's book 'Liber Azerate', some stuff about the black flame and what it is according to them.


In every cultures dark esoteric tradition there is the concept which in 'MLO' is called "the Shackled Beast". This concept is a metaphor and symbol for the Anti-Cosmic impulse which lies slumbering and hidden in the depth of every mans soul.



Sorath is the force described in the Christian bible as 'Anti-christ' and 'the Beast 666'.
He who awakens the 'Black Sun' / 'Chaos Flame'(fire) within himself becomes 'the Beast 666', which is the force from within Cosmos that shall open all the gates to the 'Wrathful Chaos Forces'(powers), that waits outside the Cosmic barriers.



To release 'the Beast', open the 'Dragons Eyes' and become one with the inner 'Chaos Flame' / 'Ahrimanic Shaddow', is the same as 'Chaos-Gnosis' and is the highest goal for 'MLO' and the 'Anti-Cosmic Transcendental Satanism', which lead the satanist to eternal reunion with the ancient 'Dark Chaos-gods'.

[TheDriller]

here's a question for everyone:

Is it a case that everyone is born with the Black Flame, and some of the individuals will nurture and cultivate this flame while the vast majority will choose to smother and extiguish their flame and brilliance?

OR

Is it a case that the Black Flame is only present in a few individuals in the first place?




give reasons

[Naomi]

It's a silly question. It doesn't have an answer. (disagree if you like)

[m1thr0s]

this thread could use some links on the Black Flame in general...I get the feeling nobody knows for sure what is being discussed. I know they are out there cuz I've read a few decent articles on this.

I don't have time to dig them out right now though. If we can't get clear on what we are discussing, it won't do much good speculating on where it comes from...

m1

[Xner]

The Black Flame seems to be in league with the Great Work, in that it really has many meanings and many interpretations. It's one of the abstract concepts that means whatever it feels to you that it means. It's left to intuitive interpretation.

[m1thr0s]

that's been my impression as well. anybody happen to know who actually coined this term? I've only heard it tossed about in the past few years or so...

m1

[Naomi]

The first place i heard of it was when I was playing GemStone IV 10 years ago. Some guy who had his character worshipping Marlu the god of demonic summoning wanted me to make a website for his religious organization "The Order of the Black Flame" (based in the game world)

Now understand why I have a hard time taking anything seriously if it has to do with making up philosophy theology of the sinister sort...my bullshit meter is very sensitive because it's important to me for stuff to be real. As long as it has real substance that is inspired, well I have no problem with that.

But I've seen whole threads go on for ages trying to sort out the *real* history and symbology of a fictional god...The Necronomicon is one exception I allow others without very much quarrel, but you won't catch me practicing this sort of chaos magick anytime soon - I like to keep my games and magick separate.

"Black Flame" is either very cheesy or very cool, depending on what you apply it to, Just saying it's there to be open to interpretation doesn't do anyone any good, and is quite boring...

[fr.novumorganum]

Google and wiki seem to relate the term to Lavey....i have no idea if this is correct. The first time I heard the term outside of rpg's was from a setian.

[Xner]

LaVey is the only source from which I recall reading anything about the "black flame". It's not something that ever really intrigued me. It has a cool name, and I'd wager that its originator had a particular concept in mind, but as it stands, it just appears to be a grey issue.

Regarding leaving things to interpretation: on matters of the Occult, all things are ultimately matters of interpretation. Nothing paranormal is real, at least not in a manner that could be quantified by empirical science, and each adherent's interpretation seems to work rather well for them. So it doesn't seem to be objectively important whether or not something is rooted in historical authenticity, or if it was made up yesterday. A man's interpretation of any concept will, in the end, tie in to a universal spiritual archetypal concept and satisfy him accordingly.

I can understand wanting something more than that, but with the black flame subject, I'm not sure it will be found.

[Naomi]

I like the Yin and Black Hole slant on things but I'll just use Yin and Black Hole respectively so why bother, aesthetically it is cute but not even as powerful as the words "inferno" "abyss" "hermetic" and so on...

[frater luciferi]

black flame...inner light...tomay-to to-maat-o... its a good analogy of the inner light..just a label so to speak. i've seen the phrase alot in "dark" luciferian texts as much as the micheal ford grimoires that are floating around on the internet..not sure why it would be considered an "exclusive" LHP term..to me its merely a "chaote" meme-key as it is a very good metaphor for manifesting the incarnate inner wisdom or intenal link to gnosis. much the same as a lot of my favorite tems that i like playing with--say abyss, abadon, gnosis, satori, light etc. etc. its just a very convienient label.. whichever the "real" essence that exists within the depth of the soul i suppose i'd rather view it as a infinite bright ultraviolet ray that eminates from the heart and mind chakras..very simple and blunt and well..easy to remember..

have had similiar experiences delving deep into the concept of deep sleep as the true connection to the all..like in our dreams we return to the true current of the dream of maya..a process that continually led me interpriting my innerdreams through the eyes of my daily experience and my daily experience saturated with the overlay of the understanding of my dreams laid out..sometimes pointing out solutions to things i had'nt yet experienced...but i think in essence i view maya or the universe as just the dream of whatever "god" is.. maybe we can somehow screen our own internal reference points as we are all part of the fabric of that dream to understand /change? the outerdream?

im sure there is a better gnostic perspective on this..and a lot of gnostic "theory" i have read on the subject of gnosis always seems to play around with the idea of "divinity" streaming though us...

[m1thr0s]

I'd have to agree it has a nice ring to it...
still, I can't seem to get this image out of my head...

http://abrahadabra.com/images/she01.jpg

m1

[Naomi]

Ooh I know that song:

YouTube - Rob Zombie-Girl on Fire

[m1thr0s]

huh??? you never saw "She"???

not a zombie...She is an immortal...kind of a dumb immortal with a killer figure... :cool:

m1

[Naomi]

hell m1thr0s we're not on the same page

but yeah, naked ladies and fire, it goes together

[m1thr0s]

black flame see...source of her power...well...actually it was blue, but still...

oh never mind.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

no is this a movie film thing? I thought it was the sorceress or something from He-Man

[m1thr0s]

I'm gonna have to give you a warning for not knowing She...good lord...She practically invented occultism...lol...

yeah...stupid movie...ursula andress...really awful film...classic cheeze...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

A warning?!?! No m1thr0s don't do that I swear I doidn't mean to!!!

look I found this cool image don't ban me

http://la.gg/upl/7214222_dfeb828150.jpg

[m1thr0s]

oh yeah...that's some really practical battle garb...what the f*ck would you even call that thing she's wearing?

ok...this is off-topic for sure.

Black Flame...cool term...means whatever the f*ck you want it to mean...

hmmm...maybe this topic is done?

m1

[m1thr0s]

I'm pretty sure the Sat-Tan folks have some good stuff on the Black Flame...they've linked it to this whole Darkness in Extension business.

I like new terms personally, though they don't always constitute new ideas exactly...just a way of revisiting old ideas in a new way in many cases.

m1

[Naomi]

oh yeah...that's some really practical battle garb...what the f*ck would you even call that thing she's wearing?


Looks like frederick's of hollywood if you ask me

and no I don't think there's more to the term that what we make of it....I like this She angle though, it's not that cheesy in basic principle - women with power, ok yeah, like dark lords, dark ladies...

It's Yin stuff - corrosive, decaying, putrefying yet healing and soothing.....

[frater luciferi]

hell, maybe we could develop the next trendy cologne---

black flame...reak of the powerfull essence of satans might! lol....

[Naomi]

Lol right

something with cedar or sandalwood in it I think...and gun powder

:D

[m1thr0s]

maybe an alcoholic beverage...I can imagine tossing back a few *black flames* pretty easily...
kinda like one of those exotic hawaiian ditties only deadlier...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

mmm oh yeah the flaming drinks

i made cherries jubilee once...I like setting my food on fire, it's fun...