A Good Role Model

[zombieharlot]

To you, what makes Lucifer a good role model?

What does he stand for or represent to you?

And what are the truths that he has revealed?

[fr.novumorganum]

He was the first to say "NO", which got the whole ball rolling....

[Radiant Star]

I am not a Luciferian and I still struggle with understanding this entity. There seem to be ambiguous ideas and connections. I suppose the only thing to do is summon him.

[m1thr0s]

I guess I don't very much believe in "role models" so I would have to say nothing...I think these things either exist internally or not at all. So in that case I would have to rephrase the question more along the lines of what makes Lucifer "relevant" or "useful" to you personally etc...

But I don't have an answer to that either since I still can't seem to get a very clear handle on what Lucifer actually is at a principle level... I think maybe I need to read this book (http://www.bookworld.com/lucifer/about.html)

Anybody read that yet? Is it any good?

m1thr0s

[fr.novumorganum]

As someone who has had to know Bloom and his work professionally, I'd warn any reader to be very very wary of his material. He works from a very conservative religious and aesthetic ideology (hence his sucess) and he puts scholarship and textual work second to his "meta-narratives".


As a professor he's the "i'm a genius how dare you question me" type.

[m1thr0s]

lol...great...just what we need...another mega-prima-dona telling us all how it is...

okeedokee...the hunt continues then...thanks Fr Novum...

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

I started to read that book and got bored. It doesn't have anything to do with Luciferianism...it doesn't even have anything to do with Lucifer. Basically, it's a book that was written to tell us that man is inherently evil...

[Luciftias]

I've got that book. I thought it was interesting, but it didn't actually discuss the figure of Lucifer. It's more about how nature is amoral, including humanity. It's a good point, especially considering that the most fundamental Hermetic principle is "As above, so below."

[The Infinite Within]

I had a very enthusiastic episode on acid a few times that involved Lucifer specifically.

I hadn't really paid mind to the entity/idea/thought whatever you wish to call it.

But I found 7 years of studying Crowley come rushing together in an instant... and everything CLICKED

it's been life-changing. Like, what happened those few times have left a real lasting impression on me and view-point.

Like the name suggests, it/He brought all things that were In The Dark into The Light; and I was given Sight in dark places.

I take it with me everyday and will remember it for the rest of my natural life.

7 years of searching was nothing compared to these 5 or so hours of intensified existence, self-exaltation, It All.

I was lifted from man to God, is what i'm saying.

[frater luciferi]

welcome to the party..dont fly too high or you might burn your wings..

aiwas it is and will every be..

[EtuMalku]

My form of Luciferianism is not deity based, it is Theosophy based.

Lucifer is the god of progress and intellectual inquiry, not only the divine inspiration behind the spiritual enlightenment of the Gnostic and the heretic and the lover of God in all his/her forms.
Through Lucifer's spirit humanity first climbed down from the trees and has represented the flow of progress ever since.

But Lucifer may be more than a metaphor for rebellion, enlightenment and advancement - as the pure creative and motive light, Lucifer may actually be the key to life itself . . .

The DNA within the nuclei of all cells of living creatures contains biophotons or ultra-weak proton emissions - in other words, light!
A dynamic web of light constantly released and absorbed by the DNA connects cells, tissues and organs and serve as the organism's main communication network.

Lucifer is on the move inside you and me, chattering between cell and cell, rousing the cohorts of the life-force, keeping us alive and wonderful. Every man and woman is a star - and now we know we have our own inner light.

[m1thr0s]

wonderful description EtuMalku...pardon me for appearing to qualify your post but it's something I find unavoidable in certain instances...

I am only not entirely convinced of the word *theosophy*...words are so damn difficult really...I think I know what you mean but I suspect there may be a better word than this.

thanks for posting...

m1thr0s

[EtuMalku]

M1thr0s, em hotep . . . what did you mean 'qualify' and what would you think is wrong with the word 'Theosophy' ?

[m1thr0s]

correctly speaking, the word *theosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy)* denotes a specific religious philosophy coined by Blavatsky...
it didn't strike me that you intended to drag her into your definition, though I may be wrong about that...

by *qualify* I only mean that it's usually better to avoid commenting on whose posts are good or not so good...don't worry about it - it's an admin thing. Some posts are so right on the money it's hard not to say so...I generally try to avoid it myself but stick to agreeing or disagreeing with specific points made.

m1

[frater luciferi]

correctly speaking, the word *theosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy)* denotes a specific religious philosophy coined by Blavatsky...
it didn't strike me that you intended to drag her into your definition, though I may be wrong about that...

by *qualify* I only mean that it's usually better to avoid commenting on whose posts are good or not so good...don't worry about it - it's an admin thing. Some posts are so right on the money it's hard not to say so...I generally try to avoid it myself but stick to agreeing or disagreeing with specific points made.

m1

theosophy has a whole section dedicated to lucifer in its texts. blavatsky uses the archetype a lot to describe the ultimate figure of "gnosis".

[m1thr0s]

oh? thanks fr luciferi...I actually didn't realize this. I think I probably only read Isis Unveiled by Blavatsky some years ago. I could never much relate to her writing style to be honest. I found her thinking fuzzy and her manner oppressive...neither thing being anything I would much aspire to in myself...

But in any case, thanks for the info...

m1

[frater luciferi]

oh? thanks fr luciferi...I actually didn't realize this. I think I probably only read Isis Unveiled by Blavatsky some years ago. I could never much relate to her writing style to be honest. I found her thinking fuzzy and her manner oppressive...neither thing being anything I would much aspire to in myself...

But in any case, thanks for the info...

m1

im no blavatsky fan myself..although her biography sits right next to aliester crowelys on my bookshelf...i DO however like her wide education on different religious beliefs..and in that sense she paralells luciferianism in her attempt at "universalizing" religion.. she did some good research that much i can give her.

can agree with you wholeheartedly with you on her writing style. actually the theosophy society puts a lot of their lectures on google... they have some very good lectures on gnosticism and hermeticism as well as other matters of the occult and other esoteric schools of thought. i think that they have pretty much abandoned arianism for the most part--not sure on that one but the lectures are quite good.

[Phoenix]

For me it was the first intelgent brain around... in a fictional way, the one that refused to follow the path of, do as i say... then again if i were god i would create him exacty that way...

Every power as its oposite

[JThomason9]

A good role model absolutely! Lucifer represents to me the light of intelligence, without whom we would still be living in caves trying to work out that whole "wheel" concept.

Lucifer is the motivation that drives us to move forward when, for whatever reason we don't want to. He is the force behind the philosophical realization that "I am, and I can, therefore I will, and I will do it better than anyone!"

Lucifer to me is lust and catharsis, reason and success.

[Amur]

I guess I don't very much believe in "role models" so I would have to say nothing...I think these things either exist internally or not at all. So in that case I would have to rephrase the question more along the lines of what makes Lucifer "relevant" or "useful" to you personally etc...

But I don't have an answer to that either since I still can't seem to get a very clear handle on what Lucifer actually is at a principle level... I think maybe I need to read this book (http://www.bookworld.com/lucifer/about.html)

Anybody read that yet? Is it any good?

m1thr0s

Might be because of your lack of 'parenting' that you don't believe in "role models" as much as other people, which in turn might be a good thing, I must say that my own 'parents' have brought but a heavy burden upon myself, which feels like it isn't even mine to begin with, which is quite stupid outright. But I do believe alot in re-imprintation and learning from 'what happens around' and so forth and learning from it, it's a pity that these energies do not understand that 'learning inside' and re-imprintation, which is really why I think that Logic itself stands on a very strong Basis if it takes into consideration the human brain system....

[m1thr0s]

Might be because of your lack of 'parenting' that you don't believe in "role models" as much as other people, which in turn might be a good thingfunny, I had forgotten about that, but it's probably true. I think it takes a little more than just parents to put a quash on that one...schools, cops, hospitals, church, military, jobs, government...all other institutions that may have fucked with your life get their chance at bat as well...but when they all fuck up over and over again you might eventually decide that they are actually all quite full of shit.

Which is a little like being born all over again - alone - in a fucking nuthouse, but still...

m1

[Amur]

funny, I had forgotten about that, but it's probably true. I think it takes a little more than just parents to put a quash on that one...schools, cops, hospitals, church, military, jobs, government...all other institutions that may have fucked with your life get their chance at bat as well...but when they all fuck up over and over again you might eventually decide that they are actually all quite full of shit.

Which is a little like being born all over again - alone - in a fucking nuthouse, but still...

m1

Good point with the schools,cops hospitals, church, military, jobs and the friggin goverment :laugh: Had forgotten about that also, I mean it's even worse when the whole list of shit takes your parental emotional buttons and pushes on those in a manner to get you herded into 'their right view' which fucks you up in all ways :laugh: I mean those same assholes even tried pulling God-Signals on my ass just to get me 'back into the system' or into the non-functioning herd, and when REALLY awakening from the whole shit, of course my parents and my elder brother put me into the mental hospital without any questions asked about my Authority or Knowledge that I was supposed to bring to this culture, even the doctor looked at me with great fear and told me that "either I take the medication voluntarily or they stick it up my ass" Gee what a great Awakening and Enlightenment, alone in a fucking nuthouse full of insane people thinking you are either a Prophet or Satan :laugh: Should have a "sign" on the planet that "Here be angry dogmatic hoomans, approach with great care" :laugh:

The funny thing is that after 5 years of watching the collective consciousness here or unconsciousness the Scientists concluded that 'the Information coming from that Source is actually correct'... 5 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! I MEAN WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK, think about how much I could've done and gotten done if those fuckers would've left me alone and now I'm like 5 years back in schedule just because of that with alot of shit on my knees and what not bullshit I didn't need in the first place not to mention that I'm totally pissed off and feel like blowing the lid off this shit. No wonder people literally shit bricks when I take my true Vibration, not that I'm harmful in anyway, which is the funniest part of it :laugh:

I mean I can be mean but I rather take up a hermes style and pull pranks on their asses....

Born all over - alone - in a nuthouse, got to remember that, very well said. Someone should've fucking warned that it's like awakening into Hell directly with all kinds of fucking shit going around with no one with a clue towards where things should be headed lol, atleast things got cleaned up here quite well after fighting for 5 years on other levels... The people may be stern here and a bit too cruel but atleast they got their fucking connection with Nature which is a good thing, but still the insanity to Christianity is quite bad and it has attacked me more fiercely than any other religion, possibly because of the intense Christ vibration...

[m1thr0s]

We're way off track here I think but I just had to share a peculiarity of language you may appreciate. When you get pulled out of your home environment and put under the jurisdiction of the State (in the US) they used to send these kids to an orphanage. They don't do that anymore...now they place them in *foster homes*...temporary homes intended to *foster* I suppose, though that is rarely what actually happens.

So then what do we call our original family environments? *Fester Homes*???

More often than not, I think maybe so...:o

m1

[Amur]

We're way off track here I think but I just had to share a peculiarity of language you may appreciate. When you get pulled out of your home environment and put under the jurisdiction of the State (in the US) they used to send these kids to an orphanage. They don't do that anymore...now they place them in *foster homes*...temporary homes intended to *foster* I suppose, though that is rarely what actually happens.

So then what do we call our original family environments? *Fester Homes*???

More often than not, I think maybe so...:o

m1

Sorry tend to loose track everynow and then but getting better all the time...

I agree that there are many odd pecularities in the human society that are still on very grotesque levels, I mean 55 years ago there was the last very big war and there are still wars going on the planet which means that it might take a long time till things start to look like they should by now, but atleast we're starting to get to a level where UFO's aren't regarded as Gods anymore but UFO's and aliens are started to be regarded as aliens and so forth so there might be, but then again I doubt UFO's or aliens are that good role models...

[EtuMalku]

What may I ask here, is everyone's take on the goal of Luciferianism?

[frater luciferi]

What may I ask here, is everyone's take on the goal of Luciferianism?

i think that you will find with everyone who is involved with "luciferianism" has a very individualistic interpriation of what lucifer and whatever path is related to said figure/archetype. I have talked to quite a few luciferians through the OF board and a forum that myself and Danistry started wat seems an aeon ago..and if you dig deep enough in the AF depositry you can find quite a few threads cannibalised from what we dubbed "the luciferian alliance".

There were no real rules as to it..only that one be adept at usage of the terminology and fluent in the manifest of the ideagog. And i have seen some very
brilliant stars shine throught the luciferian paradigm. And am glad to see that its currents are still pulsing at least through the electronic collective concious ie the internetz.

In my own pursuits of luciferianism..i at prior and some could say greater hights of occultic research was perhaps daftly inspired to fit the figure of lucifer/morningstar as a "cornerstone that the builder rejected" so to speak. A archetype that might define the divinity that ironicially seems to be so neglected by organized ie institutionalized religion. but i have grown a bit over time through my own research and two year bout of nihilist indulgence and that perspective on lucifer that i once had has grown again..in a wonderful paradigm shift that is so popular amongst those who call themselves luciferian.

I find often that what is right and just is often not what is endorsed by the powers that be. and that gnosis/enlightenment and truth are ideals that are often counter-intuitive to the structures that are created as artifices of control..
and lucifer is a good figure of promethian stature for a seeker of light so to speak to embrace.

the luciferian might not fully believe in lucifer as an actuality..but apply his/her visage as a spiritual metaphor on which to transfix on their perceptions of the outside world. Those who are enlightened act either as daemons of light or daemons of cruelty and as such. If we could fill a football stadium with so many dreamers and true believers there would be an instant manifestation of what i think a lot of luciferians strive for...the age of man. The aeon when mankind realizes their own god potential and that they are apart of the some atma or godhead.

The mythology or philosophy that comes from luciferians is one of constant struggle in some sense. i think and i aspire to be in a sense a modern gnostic poised against the demiurge! and as much i suppose a lot of these luciferian "angels" are fallen in some sense..living bohemian eccentricity..fringe dwelling and content in simplicity or intellectual pursuits rather then the mundane consumerism.

there are priniciples involved in the process. there are ideals here...and as much now..i find that now that i have passed through the darkest time in my own life and a return to a spiritual..yet still skeptical perspective on the world..that lucifer is a good figure to emulate in the dealings with power and the structure of such. there is no real rules of dogma to be luciferian. i think the only real way that i can describe my own "faith" or philosophy as such as to try to hold dear to the truth and seek it..trying to disuade falseness . And a great part of that is to seek the commonalitys in certain religions..i find a lot of great truths in hindism and buddhism and such and beauty in those paradigms or windows of ideation of different cultures on brahman or the All. And as such there is a lot of clues within the confines of those said religions as such..all having their own successes at painting the picture...but if you compare the different pictures tying to capture that same scene....one might be able to render that divinity that lie within.

to me that is luciferianism. the sublime truth that is the dangerous heresy.

[NegativeDialectic]

mithros, the link you posted seems to be dead... but I gather you're referring to "the Lucifer Principle" by Howard Bloom. I flipped through it... it seemed vaguely interesting but kind-of "all flash, no substance" ... except there was an interesting part about competing clumps of anemone in it... I'm not sure if he really backs up all of his data in a totally scholarly way, though.

novumorganum, it surprised me to see that you described Bloom as "conservative religious" and a college professor - I don't think he's either one. But you might be getting him mixed up with Harold Bloom, who is both a (sort of) conservative religious (Jew) and a professor at Yale. I made the same mistake myself. It's very easy to do, because Harold Bloom wrote a book called "the Flight to Lucifer: a Gnostic Fantasy."

I absolutely love Harold Bloom as a writer. Though I can imagine that he's probably very hard to get along with. "The Anxiety of Influence," "The American Religion," "Where Shall Wisdom be Found" - these are some of my favorite books. (His books on Blake are also very good.)

To make matters even more complicated, people often get Harold Bloom and Allan Bloom mixed up - both famous college professors, wrote best-selling books in the 80s, were on the same side during the famous "canon" debates, etc.. Too many Blooms!

[Kath]

funny, I had forgotten about that, but it's probably true. I think it takes a little more than just parents to put a quash on that one...schools, cops, hospitals, church, military, jobs, government...all other institutions that may have fucked with your life get their chance at bat as well...but when they all fuck up over and over again you might eventually decide that they are actually all quite full of shit.

Which is a little like being born all over again - alone - in a fucking nuthouse, but still...

m1

It's surprising to me sometimes, whom it is that every once in a blue moon, ends up tugging on a heartstring.

we are all alone
most of us runnin' from the fact desperately, but there it is anyway

and yet perhaps, on a level far deeper than human beings generally care to dig, also un-alone?


but I digress.
Interesting old topic.
"role model" ...hmmm
I have only one. And she is mostly absent these days.
Absent for the explicit reason, that I cannot 'become' whatever I may, if I am too busy fawning over her.
Absent because while role models can be a hugely important thing for a person,
ultimately we stand alone, and we must evolve and adapt so that is enough.
A role model can point the way, but as long as you follow another, you are not yet fully igniting the brilliance within.
Like a nestling bird, we may be nourished, but we cannot soar until we lift ourselves upon our own wings.
Then again, I do ultimately wanna fly, "like mama". So maybe I'm incurably tainted by influence?
*shrug* I don't mind so much. Ultimately I'm doin' what I want, for my own reasons.

Lucifer? That's just an adjective which means 'light bearer'. Do you wanna bear light? or be enlightened? I think most people wanna be enlightened, foremost anyway. So is that really following Lucifer as a role model? Or is enlightening others? But then what about all those logs in our eyes? blind leadin blind, splinters everwhere... I dunno.
If there were such a thing as a 'creator god', and somebody did say, in full knowledge and awe of his infinite omnipotence, "hey, fuck you and you're holier than thou shit". I think that's an entity I could admire. yeah. Or instead of "admire" should I say "identify with"? Probably the latter.

anyways,

[m1thr0s]

It's surprising to me sometimes, whom it is that every once in a blue moon, ends up tugging on a heartstring.wow...a derogatory compliment! charmed, I am sure...:laugh:

i don't really know how a person could have only one role model to be honest...I must have hundreds...possibly thousands. I'm sure it's all about how we look at things but i find myself *looking up* to all kinds of little people who have clearly excelled at something difficult, often for the pure love of it and many times with unreasonable amounts of opposition in their way...I notice that stuff and I always admire it. To me all these *little people* are giants whose shoes I will never be able to fill. It reminds me of many important things about my own path...keeps me honest...keeps me brave...helps me to stay on the path that is not often very outwardly rewarding, just because i know it is the right thing for me to be doing at this particular time and so on...

I wonder if this is not a peculiar by-product of having become truly independent in one's thinking - that one develops this ability to see the *one* in the *many* somehow...

at least a few of my role models are people I don't even like...Aleister Crowley comes to mind...on a personal level I really can't stand the son-of-a-bitch...but as a dedicated star-theorist well ahead of his time this cat is flat godamm amazing...warts and all. I have actually come to view those *warts* as an integral part of his example...a seriously fucked up human being who still achieves the fucking impossible...this is a ponderous thing indeed.

m1

[frater luciferi]

why does it seem like my posts get ignored a lot on threads here? lol. AM i reading too much into this?

[m1thr0s]

sorry about that luciferi...not really sure why that would be.
people mainly respond to what they *get* I think...a little less to what they might wish they *got*...
I have this problem as well with my stuff but in my case there are a few more people who would like to *get* it...
the vast majority would prefer to just shuffle around it sideways...
it's possible that this whole discussion forum thing just doesn't work as well as many of us have hoped it would.
I think about it a lot but I don't really have the solution to it yet.

for what it's worth, you're not the first to have complained about this.
people usually take it personally and that is understandable. my feeling is that it isn't personal - it's a tactical problem of some kind.
only i don't quite get all the variables that would make for any real improvement.
My guess is that our venue here is simply too *broad*...for what is actually intended for a more exclusive audience.
I should probably have a forum for Mutational Alchemy stuff ONLY...so I wouldn't wind up wasting time with things that don't much matter to me.
Perhaps you would get better input from a more exclusive Luciferian forum in your case...so you wouldn't feel your posts were hitting dry air.
But if we go that route, we do lose the broader perspective that a broader base should yield.
The question is - does it really? Most of the time it doesn't really seem to work this way.

m1

[izi]

I do ignore his posts.

[frater luciferi]

yah but this is the fucking luciferianism forum. lololol. And i wrote a good bit too. If you wanna start a segment on luciferianism in the forums and then not listen to what luciferians have to say how the fuck does that work lolololol

[izi]

I read it. It was boring and derivative. I don't disagree with it either. Almost everyone allowed into the forums these days has been around the block with regards to types of occultism and what they are about - never defined fully by one or another persons. I ignore a lot people on the forums. Some because they go on forever and ever about themselves, talk like they think they are more intellectual than they actually are, or others because they never have anything new to say and I just stop paying attention after a while. (not you generally just can't really get excited about your posts ever) I can't really speak for anyone else, so you might try asking other people. I am very focused on mutational alchemy and while the boards themselves are important to me and the quality of the posts, I pay a lot more attention to those people who bring something to the table regarding that topic. It's nothing personal, just business.

[m1thr0s]

yah but this is the fucking luciferianism forum. lololol. And i wrote a good bit too. If you wanna start a segment on luciferianism in the forums and then not listen to what luciferians have to say how the fuck does that work lolololI re-read your last post Luciferi and yes, it was a good post, but it is a personal perspective that doesn't leave much room for discussion...like if someone says *It's a beautiful day here in Memphis - I love it when the sun comes out and all the rest*...there's just not a lot to be discussed. I do think that the things you find admirable in Luciferianism can be found in other things as well - but that is really neither here nor there. People generally only discuss things they either strongly agree with or strongly disagree with or may have questions about...I think I already sort of said that earlier...

m1

[Kath]

frater luciferi, I liked your post :)
I couldn't think of anything to say about it. I could have typed "I agree with this post" or something like that but, I dunno, it's hard to really pin down, but I just couldn't think of something to say exactly. I guess it was all stuff which I was familiar with, and basically agree with, but I just couldn't think of much to say on the topic. Also, I was distracted at the moment by m1th's post.
__

and M1thr0s, I really must explain! it wasn't meant to be a backhanded compliment :)
People in general don't often say something which I personally feel to tug on my heartstrings.
To say something raw, and visceral, and deep... and not be a cliche regurgitation of some fortune cookie haiku or mass market media babble? It ain't real common.
In the last ten years, I have found that even while my empathy (as a perception) and my general understanding of consciousness (my own and others'), has grown considerably... I find it increasingly rare to really 'identify' with people. Or perhaps put another way, I identify with everybody, but always 'in part', and that kinda makes nothing 'stand out'. Also, I have let myself become a bit more jaded than I once was. So it's just a rare feeling to find something genuinely 'touching'. I like it very much, and I quite miss it's being more frequent.

Also... while I am used to being intellectually inspired by some of the things you say, I'm not used to you inspiring the right half of my brain. People could probably say the same of my own posts, I lean towards my left brain a lot when writing on technical subjects, and I generally think of occultism as a somewhat technical field. I generally view you as regarding it as a technical field even moreso than I.

Between both of those factors, I was doubly surprised.
__

as for having hundreds of role models... hmmm.
I notice people pointing out role models whom they have never actually met. I was really kinda limiting myself to just people who have an immediate and direct impact on me & my development as a person. Right now that narrows things down to just one being. If I include my past, there have been perhaps a couple dozen people who have been role models for me. If I include authors, actors, musicians, artists, etc? people whom I have never met? yeah, that would be hundreds of people, probably thousands.

As for Lucifer as a role model. There's so many ways to interpret "Lucifer"... makes it so that we're likely never going to all be talking about the same thing at the same time. I can say that I generally see Lucifer as a positive role model, regardless of which of the many interpretations of that name we're going with. But Lucifer has not ever actually been a role model of mine. My general agreement with L is more of a "great minds think alike" incidental thing, rather than any modeling or following behavior.

[frater luciferi]

ack. paranoia will destroy mah

[frater luciferi]

and i'm the one sayin' that luciferianism is all about reality paradigms being mere fractals that have different math. And i really dig the math of the i-ching im just not really that good with math. I mean i know that the math of the stuff is the actual code of the whole deal. But where do we lay out archetypal pattern? I devolved for a bit mang and wanna mutate back into a living human being again for a bit. Walked around a bit in the old abyss and old mara was riding behind me.

I mean there are definate codes that are involved in the fabric of the unverse. If we would relate lucifer to code he would be AIWAS the illumination or the awakening. The high guardian angel...the revelation of self projected into the outter chasm. or the staring back from the form returned into the seer.

The all stares into you and you see yourself. And it acts upon its own relation. We see in the evolution of species that will transmutes through the flesh of the species. That there is a development of causal relation of will. Could one rewrite his own DNA to cause a new form through?

[m1thr0s]

Could one rewrite his own DNA to cause a new form through?that's pretty much what DNA does, so I don't see why not. On the flip-side, we don't really know that the code is unable to complete itself, given the right conditions. But I think a balance between the numbers and the not-numbers is better than either extreme personally...

m1

[Kath]

I'm a bit wary of 'magick to change DNA' thinking. 99.99% of any changes to your dna that you could make, would result in negative rather than positive results. Mother nature has already worked very hard on random changes to give us a decent set of genes. And she did it through massive attrition. Mess with your dna, and you're 'very' likely to just F it up.

Anyway, if you wanna modify your DNA, just go sit naked under some UV lamps for a few days. Roll in some radioactive waste, or drink some dioxin or agent orange. Actually, that should kinda illustrate just how unlikely it is that random 'damage' to your delicately balanced and intricate DNA will result in an actual positive change.

Interestingly, effecting DNA could be reasonably easy to do. I mean on a cell-by-cell basis. It's basically microtelekinesis, which is actually proven to work decently for 'most' people (statistically). Effecting a billion different cells all in the same way... might be a taller order. But I would imagine you could manage to actually mutilate your DNA on a small scale without even a great deal of magical skill.

my opinion though, don't mess with it, unless you're working through an omniscient higher power who knows what it's doing.

[frater luciferi]

human beings have been using mutagens since the beginning of it. Not the same ProTo-dna but cerebral "thought" process or cognitive cohesiveness. A lot had theorized the first thought was a hallucination inspired by a cubensi trip. That the voices in peoples heads became god because god was the first real notion of thought? But we never equate "nature" and "Flesh" evolving due TO the evolution of cognitive credulity. The lightning strikes the certain center point there..but do we say its a frankenstein ordeal or do we say that it is promethean? We argue the sons of man and we can say that there was some oddness that existed in the times of the ancients. Concious manipulation of dna. Were we picked? or did we pick ourselves are some certain point in the ladder..

I suppose myself i still prefer shamanic mutagens over actual "contagens" so present in society. In cognizance one should at least try to see the irony in existence. That one struggles toward genetic coding...have we learned our lesson as species with nuclear power?