What's a "Dark Lord"?

[DWriter]

What is a "Dark Lord"?

I read and hear a lot of ref to DL, on the Net, in school, on TV, and in theological conversation, but I truly haven't a clue what it really means, or is?

Not the forum member whose handle is "Dark Lord", but the reality of the thing.

Please tell.

[deviadah]

The Dark Lord can be many things. Mostly it is used in fiction as an alias for evil leaders such as Sauron in LOTR and that dude in Harry Potter!

I guess it is also another name for Satan, and even Ningishzidda (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=2218) could be called such...

But really I have not come across anything of importance in occult/esoteric gnosis that refers to some Dark Lord!

:cool:

http://sithsigma.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/darthvader.jpg

[m1thr0s]

yeah...the term can either be respectful or absurd, depending on how it's used...

In general, powerful sinister (ie, dark) archetypes such as the satan or baphomet or baal or leviathon or a host of many others would come under this generic sort of title...

m1

[Amur]

I must say that I'm a Dark Lord myself. I'm such a bad muthafucker that I'm even scared of myself :laugh: 12-20 feet big badass demon powah. Funny how I equate traumatization/being hurt with this one. So maybe satan is just very hurt and needs love lol :)

[deviadah]

It is also an anagram for: Lard Dork

:laugh:

[Naomi]

if you call yourself one you're generally not...sort of the rule with in native american communities calling yourself a heyokah or medicine person is the epitome of tribal gauche - on the rez you may not care about business attire but there are still fashion faux pas.

So yeah, dark lords...not really something you mess with for a number of reasons, first of all, they only deal with worst case scenarios. The interpretation of dark in Tibetan lore as with the boddhisattva Mahakala is that black represents the realm without form beyond the boundaries of time. Black is the color reserved for very special kinds of thangkas dealing with dramatic subjects and outer rim styles of recreational mind-play.

Mahakala himself is named as the one who saves even the most horrible from the lowest realms of existencce. It's possible he was actually one of the local tribal deities who was *aggregized into the Tibetan Buddhist pantheon when Buddhism first hit Tibetan landscape. The goddess Kali is very similar in style of course, she is the 'dangerous mother' very potent protector with a strong mothering instinct you don't want to fuck with at all. Sort of a last ditch exit scenario figurehead. Someone who you call when there's no one else to call. And the universe - being perfect- at least as far as we humans are concerned - has a backup plan for just about anything.

That's what we call 'dark lords"

inscrutable, ineffable and most of all scary as hell.

Darth Vader isn't really one because he's a fucking star wars character, and George Lucas is a moron....

try to be serious please....

*aggregized- word I made up

[deviadah]

Darth Vader isn't really one because he's a fucking star wars character, and George Lucas is a moron... try to be serious please....
I am deadly serious... and since the Q was about Dark Lords I provided all the references to this title I could think of - Darth Vader is one. As I clearly and seriously stated: Dark Lords are mostly found in fiction!

:cool:

PS: most magic(k) is fiction

[m1thr0s]

also dark lords like to fight amongst themselves I've noticed...lol

must be good for the gene-pool or something...mind the china now...

m1

[deviadah]

:laugh:

No dark lord here...

:cool:

[Naomi]

That's like saying cats are mostly found in fiction. There's a whole lot of fucking cat science fiction fantasy novels.

I'm merely pointing out that a dark lord isn't something you stick on a plastic lunchbox and call it yo daddy. I like Darth Vader I just don't take him seriously as a so-called "dark lord". I think that anybody who does so needs to seriously do some fucking library research. Even in a character type sense Emperor Palpatine was a real dark lord...Darth Vader was actually more of a Dark Knight...

As far as unconventional dark lords are concerned, one that seldom comes to mind (probably) for most concerned viewers is Vishnu. There are two primary views of Vishnu - one as a dark skinned man literally "the dark one" as he is often referred to, and as a personification of solar energy.

Vishnu in his earthly incarnations tends to do some pretty nasty dark "evil" things, yet he is the personification of all that is good...he ends up burning Sita alive in a public execution ceremony and he rips the guts out of his enemies - his most recent incarnation according to Hindu belief is that of Buddha.

Vishnu's abode - Vaikuntha or Vishpurna, is made of gold and jewels, he rests on the great black serpent Ananta and has his feet massaged eternally by the goddess of all wealth and fortune, lakshmi...not to mention he has the worlds biggest eagle - the fiercesome Garuda as his vehicle. That makes him a very obvious dark lord, but his counterpart and somewhat rival Siva gets more attention merely because Siva likes to wear the ashes of dead bodies, hang around with ghouls and witches and demons, and meditate in cemetaries. However, of the two, Siva I think is actually more wholesome as far as practical life is concerned.

I think in general power rides between the forces of both dark and light....you can't just tarry in one side or the other for two long, instead it's best to fluctuate between one polarity and the other in order to create a turbine of great strength and integrity.

[Anibis]

Silence, cowering minions... BOW before the chittering hordes of my unspeakable insectoid wrath.... Care for a cheese sandwitch, anyone? muhuhahaha....
-A

[Anibis]

Osiris was a black god.
-A-

[Naomi]

Silence, cowering minions... BOW before the chittering hordes of my unspeakable insectoid wrath.... Care for a cheese sandwitch, anyone? muhuhahaha....
-A


fuck off m'lord

omg cheese is evil! nooooOoooo

[Naomi]

Art of unknown date and origin depicting Vishnu in his Narasimha form ripping the guts out of some demon who offended him.

http://www.dazimua.com/images/occult/narasimha-india.jpg

[Anibis]

fuck off m'lord

omg cheese is evil! nooooOoooo

Likewise, m'lady....
-A-

[Kuroyagi]

Heinrich Himmler is said to have always carried a copy of the Bhagavad Gita on his person. He compared Hitler with the god Krishna [avatar of Vishnu] who features in the poetical work.http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/H-B-K/inhalt.hi.en.htm

I think that its not a coincidence that especially tyrants and dictators are considered or like to consider themselves as an avatar of Vishnu, particularly- since he is the one upholding creation. Thereby they say: without my benevolence nothing would exist, nothing could exist, YOUR survival depends on my whim, since I am (and here I paraphrase K.rishna in the Gita), not only the one from whom have sprang all things living and dead but who is also not restricted by them or compounded by them. If they were to cease their existence then MY existence would be unaffected by that ragnarök nonetheless- to such an extent am I above you! If you but earn my love and show your devotion then you are of the righteous and tread the correct path, even if you are a bad man. (9th chant/30).

[Naomi]

Also Einstein...also Oppenheimer....the Bhagavad Gita isn't exactly obscure, it's almost commonplace, although it has fallen out of fashion since the 70's....

Vishnu is primarily an upholder of righteousness

"Whenever there is decline of righteousness, and unrighteousness is in the ascendent, then I body Myself forth to protect the virtuous and put an end to evil-doers; to establish Dharma, I am born from age to age."

- Krsna, Bhagavad Gita

The point I am getting at is that so-called dark lords are hardly about perpetuating evil, as with campy sci-fi characters or elsewise, rather about oppressing darkness and manifesting light, whereupon we find the dichotomy of Satan/Lucifer as most beautiful light and creation and dark lord of Hell with no chance for redemption.

[m1thr0s]

I think all that Arian crapola has to be taken with a huge grain of salt personally...Hindu philosophy isn't squeeky clean or anything...there's all kinds of polluted bullshit that has crept its way in...

We should never lose sight of those advantages we enjoy right here and now. The things we are right now capable of constructing will leave all that other stuff face down in the dirt should we succeed at this...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

oh, which brings me back to why we are all here

this one's for m1thr0s!

http://www.dazimua.com/images/occult/satan.jpg

(resident dark lord...obviously...)

[m1thr0s]

hey cool! I like his barbecued ribs crown...lol...how Kali is that?...

m1

[deviadah]

Not so much dark lord, but more lord of death; still...

http://nyingmapa.free.fr/bouddhas/yama.jpg

YAMA

:cool:

The point I am getting at is that so-called dark lords are hardly about perpetuating evil, as with campy sci-fi characters or elsewise, rather about oppressing darkness and manifesting light, whereupon we find the dichotomy of Satan/Lucifer as most beautiful light and creation and dark lord of Hell with no chance for redemption.

Naturally, and I am of the same opinion... but what I pointed out is that although there might be dark lords the title itself is more common in fiction than faction... and this might be because such a title is pretty silly when applied to a concept that is supposed to influence ones reality in either a mutational or inspirational manner.

That is why Satanism is boring as an -ism... but not the subtext that is contained within!

:cool:

[Amur]

It is also an anagram for: Lard Dork

:laugh:

I would certainly agree on the anagram for Lard Dork. :laugh:

[Naomi]

Are we all twelve years old or something? Sillies....

edit:

oh well I remember that the best antidote for fear is laughter, so I understand....heh heh.

Ananta is another very very powerful dark lord, more on him as I have time, have to run for a bit...

[fr.novumorganum]

http://www.everypicture.com/shop/books/bb25ea5452cde48992d515f45220cd6f/sauron-the-dark-lord.jpg

sauron

i find it interesting that the dark lords that have evolved in western fiction tend to be focused only on dominion and not creative destruction...i think it says something about our psyche and where our collective fears dwell...

http://www.mattresspolice.com/images/sauron.jpg

modern man makes the dark lord an embodiment of the dark side of the will, the will to dominate others...and our heroes are small (frodo) or children (harry potter) representing the 'little people' standing up to the tyrant...

since we must look at all things dialectically, this current embodiment serves the ruling class well, as all our modern icons of the dark lord do not carry the creative and liberating negation that older versions (baph/lucifer/loki/set) do...except for Darth Vader...when he turns on the Emperor he enacts the role of the destroyer of the current order...

http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/laserdisk/sw6/dvbones54.jpg

which is pretty much why the holy fathers called them devils back in the day....

(so no i don't think Lucas was an idiot...he knew his western myth)

[deviadah]

oh well I remember that the best antidote for fear is laughter, so I understand....heh heh.

Actually laughter is often a result of fear!

Good points fr.novumorganum!

And to add in Japanese fiction the so-called dark lord is often more filled with redemptive qualities (i.e. they are not afraid to change towards the better)!

:cool:

[fr.novumorganum]

thats right on Dev....


in modern forms of this myth you just have to get rid of the 'one bad egg' but the system remains...

true creative destruction destroys the system...

[Amur]

Actually laughter is often a result of fear!

Good points fr.novumorganum!

And to add in Japanese fiction the so-called dark lord is often more filled with redemptive qualities (i.e. they are not afraid to change towards the better)!

:cool:

I don't actually think that laughter is a result of fear, mostly laughter seems to signal about a sense of inner security, as when one is secure inside it is more easy to laugh at things :)

[deviadah]

I don't actually think that laughter is a result of fear, mostly laughter seems to signal about a sense of inner security, as when one is secure inside it is more easy to laugh at things...
Perhaps there is some truth in this as well, but there have been studies that show that laughter is a side-effect of fear. But sure insecurity is a form of fear I guess...

:cool:

[Naomi]

One text that comes to mind is the Gita-Govina, The Song of the Dark Lord, by the poet Jayadeva. The song is so controversial in India some Vaishnavites even condemn the study of it. It's very powerful. In allegory it describes the supreme lord and force of Krsna and Radha as they engage in lila. It is very popular in India and is one of the most famous performances.

It has none of the horrors of modern pop culture, but instead introduces us to the sensual horrors of kami, the predatory force in the poem who attacks both Krsna and Radha. Krsna rescues Radha from her longing and defeats Kami both by returning to her and by putting an end to his liasions with the gopis (momentarily, as part of the lila).

Love is insane, and it is much, much scarier and riskier than Darth Vader or evil empires.

[Dragon]

To me another great example would be Ravana, so by extension - Vishnu.
. And although Hades qualifies in the classic sense, what of Posideon? And Hern? Bez? Hermes? (Odin) The gods that all have their dark nature, but still occupy "high" positions in pantheonistic thought - seemingly juxtapostioned to the classic "dark lords" of their worlds

Seemingly.


I don't think it is a question of what qualifies a dark lord per say, because all things (including lords) have their shadows (which is the key word here, archtypically speaking that is), but more precisely, what qualifies as a lord? Is this a equal or lesser being then a god? Can it be either mortal or immortal? Is it a set of behavours? Feats? Or simply their moral position in a story relative o the culture telling it?

Talk to me batgirl...


~D~

[Naomi]

Indeed Ravana is a great classical character. What qualifies as a lord? A lord is someone who owns some kind of mastery, whether personal or over people, but you get into the whole dark lord thing when someone has mastery over the lower worlds and darker instincts - not being afraid of killing or sex, for instance, any of the lower hell chakras and their associations. Well, not just not being afraid of it, but knowing how and when to apply it to accomplish victory.

And also, if you don't place yourself first you are definately not a dark lord, so there is a difference...I think it is best to be dark and light at the same time.

Also a hallmark of these guys is they are pretty fucking mysterious...

[m1thr0s]

*Sinister Knowledge*, to me, is key...cognizant of the *forbidden* and adroit at the *taboo*...not given to romanticism though...not *dark* in the way many internet twits would play it...rather dark in the sense that not a godamm thing comes between their intentions and finalizations. This is always a bit on the scary side...these cats might do anything at all...might take out whole universes if those universes conflicted with their wills etc...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

I know that I have the ability to destroy the entire universe and existence if I please, but I will only use that ability if they go against nature and threathen the balance of Nature itself. Which I highly doubt because it provides them also with forms of Existence in various dimensions and places(and those idiots are trying to conquer control over that, quite a foolish task imho). If hope everything goes alright because then the Doors of Time will be re-opened and that's quite a blast.

[Naomi]

I think that's where the line between evil dark lord and just dark lord stands - they don't have any scruples about what needs to be done to fulfill their will - it's just that the evil ones usually have very very bad intentions - and that's what gets publicized in the west for whatever reason.

All of the qualities you mentioned makes them very good in tight places by the way...which could be a function of economics....

[m1thr0s]

economics is the correct word alright...
nearly all *dark lords* are first and foremost *kings* and have an unwaivering commitment to *kingdom*...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

nearly all *dark lords* are first and foremost *kings* and have an unwaivering commitment to *kingdom*...


Well one way to become a *king* is to be stronger than the rest. Which in a way means who "hits the hardest". Seriously you can make yourself higher in the hierarchy by giving a hostile impulse towards other ppl. Try going out in the city knowing that you could beat the crap out of everyone who goes past you, this will naturally make yourself higher in the hierarchy and the best(most ridiculous) part is that women tend to like those who are higher in this stoopid hierarchy :laugh:

[m1thr0s]

not all dark lords follow this heavy masculine paradigm...again this is a bit of hollywood mucking up the works. a fair number of them, including Ningishzidda, Baphomet, Set and others have both their masculine and feminine aspects...so the word *king* in this instance should be used carefully...

for some reason *dark ladies* seem to get left out of the loop on this score but they are there...Kali, Ereshkigal, Megaera, Nemesis, many others...are very much of the *dark lord* genre but don't get included as often in these discussions. So I think we sort of return to the idea that the term itself is a bit inaccurate.

I actually find more parallels with the phenomena of Black Holes than just about anything else in nature... violent, sure, but they also herd whole freaking galaxies...of course they would be a little violent...

m1

[Naomi]

Thanks m1thr0s I was going to bring that up but you beat me to it...