Ba Gua Mirrors and Feng Shui

[Naomi]

Why do the bagua mirrors that are sold in asian stores repel evil. If they work, why do they work?

I'm talking about the bagua with the Qian at the top. The reason I ask is someone I know just moved behind a graveyard. They are scared of ghosts. I said the bagua will work.

I actually didn't believe in baguas totally until I started using them, and then after I started studying mutational alchemy I began to understand why they might work which was really exciting, because nobody in the godamned feng shui community seems to understand the underlying principles.

[m1thr0s]

I'm not actually familiar with these...if you have a link that would be useful. In general, ba gua talismans can be relied upon to work if you are willing to invest a little into them...learn the I Ching...understand what you are drawing upon etc...

If you don't do that or just can't be bothered...just want some mindless quick-fix solution to a very complex sort of problem, I would say forget it. You are likely to be creating more problems than you solve. The trouble is...there is kind of a high price on these emblems these days...this is not a good time to be treating these images with any kind of casual disregard. Better to not employ them at all if you're too damn lazy to get a little involved.

[Naomi]

These have probably been used for a thousand years in China, and are extremely popular today still:

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10647374/Bagua_Mirror_For_Feng_Shui.jpg

I got a good story once from one of my Chinese peepz, he said in Hong Kong when he was a kid back in the 50's his mom who is this huge astrological-feng-shui DIYer hung one up on the front of their little market and every week the dock across the street would catch on fire. I've seen what these little guys can do and it's pretty funny...or not...

I realized I've been staring at basically this kind of thing head on with the tree fields mirrors. And that's exactly what I used to avoid with the bagua because I could feel the weird energy just literally pouring offf of these little fuckers when I looked at them. But I didn't get it....

It's only this arrangement that supposedly repels/reflects bad influences

sometimes it is depicted with a god riding a tiger, maybe a war god I'm not sure who it is.

[m1thr0s]

well...that particular arrangement of kua doesn't do anything special for me personally, so it's hard for me to imagine where their statistics are coming from asserting that it has any special feng shui qualities...

how are we to imagine that they measured this? did they take a poll or something? do we get to see their freaking poll questions so we can assess whether it was legitimate or biased? at the level of underlying principle there is nothing special there to support it, other than the outside dots arrangement which do in fact correspond to the LoShu square...the more common *upside down* version placing heaven in the below and earth in the above...

The arrangement of the kua themselves is nothing to write home about. It is an arrangement that enjoys a certain popularity among some people for no particular reason and that is all...

In general...any time you assert all eight kua together in some sort of balanced pattern you will have a positive energy talisman capable of bringing order to disorder and balance to imbalance. It is the nature of the Ogdoad itself that this would be the case...that we have a very dynamic unified whole acting in the service of harmonic equilibrium...

So there is nothing especially wrong with it...nothing inherently amiss, but I could show you several outstanding alternatives that I would have a lot more confidence in and also be able to tell you why. From a strictly tantric perspective, this arrangement is virtually useless, but here again, if you infuse some sort of value into it, then the kua themselves can channel this.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

The negative influence has to be reflected in the mirror (in alot of traditions)

I think you're wrong m1thr0s but I guess it's because you're already so badass aready you don't need silly little cures like this one.

I'm not being sarcastic fyi (m1thr0s knows this but I think other people wouldn't know m1thr0s is actually totally familiar with general badassery.)

There's another arrangement, probably more than one other that has Kun at the top and this can be used indoors as a positive influence, this one is supposedly very bad indoors or facing anything you don't want repelled. You never find anything on that online hardly but I think Lillian Too talks about the other arrangement in her books, she's this famous Feng Shui practitioner from Malaysia (I think) she wasn't famous when I was reading her books, but after Feng Shui became popular she was famous.

Believe it or not I've actually applied Feng Shui principles with mutational alchemy, but something I learned from it is the traditional compass school is completely wrong minded in my opinion, while the kua school (where you simply rely on correct arrangement of the 9 cells of your home or room, fractally) is very effective.

[m1thr0s]

well, I did try to leave the door open to other possibilities but no...the arrangement of the kua themselves is not that big a deal that I can see...

and really, I don't trust grandiose claims that have zero qualifying rationale standing behind them anyway...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Hey m1,

Please discuss some of the alternate
kua arrangements and their qualities...

[m1thr0s]

Before going into that I should point out that the arrangement being put forward in Naomi's example is not without precedent. It is drawn from the Abstract System of Fu Hsi (also Fu Qi) sometimes just referred to as the *Axial* system. As conventional talismans go, it is probably as good an arrangement as any, possibly better than most. But I am not personally interested in traditional anything, other than a historical reference point, which is almost always the only real value these things have to offer.

In some cases the reasons why things have become popular may also be important to understand since there may be underlying principles there which might apply in the here and now just as they did in the past. But we also have to look to how things are intended to be employed and scrutinize these practices as to their relevance in our own lives and situations. It has often been the case that talismans are employed in a kind of passive way...they are assigned certain *standing* properties and are supposed to somehow exhibit those properties just as a matter of being displayed in some fashion. I don't believe in this at all and am rather dead-set against such nonsense because I believe it undermines the most dynamic principle of talismans at their very core...that they are interactive artifacts whose emanations are at all times reciprocal to the kinds of energy being directed at them. This energy may be as casual as a glance or as concentrated as a mantra but talismans are interactive magickal tools or else they are simply jewelry...nothing in the middle.

I'll return in a bit and demonstrate an example or two of Ba Gua Talismans I would be more inclined to endorse and discuss the *why* a bit as well...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

There's actually two divisions in Feng Shui that are primarily responsible for ill thought out planning, first the school that follows the deliberate misinformation from some emperor or another who had his scholars leak bad information to the public at large to keep the real secrets from falling into the hands of anyone else, and the part of the Feng Shui community that actually follows all the hand me down traditions to the letter.

I would like to see your examples and hear why you find them more compelling.

But the whole idea of Feng Shui is focused on the flow of the dragon's breathe dispersed by wind, that stops at the boundary of water. It's not about baguas so much but it is a repeating element that features in almost every school.

[Naomi]

I believe it undermines the most dynamic principle of talismans at their very core...that they are interactive artifacts whose emanations are at all times reciprocal to the kinds of energy being directed at them.

This is interesting, so you're saying that the artifacts will react differently depending on who is looking at them and how?

I guess I'm just weird if it was looking at me weird...

[m1thr0s]

I don't really have much interest in Feng Shui so we may be at cross-purposes here generally. My way of dealing with negative energy is not to *disperse* it but rather to capture and convert it. Dispersion gets a lot of positive press in the martial arts but it is not always the best way to deal with things. Where do things go when you *disperse* them? If you disperse a financial debt, it's still there..just in smaller pieces! If you disperse radiation it's still there but the discreet packaging has been modified...the radiation itself has not gone away. Dispersion is simply not always the correct way to deal with negative energy situations...it can in some instances make things a lot worse than they were to begin with.

The Axial system may indeed *disperse* negative energy. My question...my issue in general...is why do that when you can just as easily capture and convert it?

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

The only capturing mechanism i am aware of in Feng Shui is in the case of the Pichiu (pixiu, pichu) symbolism, it's winged cat that doesn't have an anus so it can eat forever and never let go of whatever goes in.

This supposedly is a symbol of good fortune, even though it gathers everything.

These are all just mind devices obviously but they're important, I guess.

So what would you use to capture the energy of a graveyard and recycle it into something useful m1thr0s? I would like to hear your solution if you've got one.

[m1thr0s]

energy is energy...I would use the same enginery I always use, personally. I also don't care that much for distractions so unless something has a very specific sort of cause, I tend to treat it all about the same. If something actually distinguishes itself in some way then that is different and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. For the most part, really powerful transcendental tools tend to be very multipurpose anyway as they attend to things beneath the surface.

why would the energy of a graveyard pose some sort of special problem? Is this a particular graveyard with especially haunted energy or just any graveyard?

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

What, the abrahadabra grid/twinstar etc?

It's just a regular graveyard...

[m1thr0s]

sure, the TwinStar will do or any of the Trigrammal Fields will suffice this sort of thing...

how to make this perfectly clear...if we are dealing with energy out-of-balance on any level at all, the systems outlined in the Abra system will tackle this situation head-on...rank and title notwithstanding...particulars rarely make any difference at all...whether it's leaping out at you from behind a bush or welling up from some dark crevice of the Mind itself, it's all pretty much the same thing to Abrahadabra and its associated tech...

Many things that might attack are only attempting to assert some measure of dominance and even this - in many cases - only to be taken seriously enough to be considered real. Abrahadabra demonstrates what the alchemists have called the *Universal Solvent* - it resolves things along a massive scale - it frees things that are trapped - it answers things that are confused - it guides things that are lost and it corrects things that are flat unlawful or otherwise incorrect.

There isn't a ghosty worth its salt that wouldn't be freaking thrilled to have some magus cranking this puppy up in answer to its problem...that's just how it is...that's just how all-encompassing this thing really is...

Now we can also break things down with it into the minutest possible detail but in most of the situations you are describing none of this would ever be required.

But look...if you have some specialized concerns...take a reading and build your shields on the basis of this information...it's a very articulate methodology...many ways to proceed.

But we are steering too much into words here...I will come back when I have had a chance to create a few graphics and we can look at some of these particulars better.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

ungh, great, now I'm a thing....

I wouldn't have a problem with the graveyard myself, I would just use this technology. How does a complete neophyte go about utilizing this technology without just constructing a 30 foot wall with glowing neon treefield lights on it...

See, I can't go there in person and I'm reluctant to rely on remote viewing as a source of any reliable information.

Not everyone knows how to do work like this so it has to be dumbed down...a little....

okay, alot....

Thank you for your time m1thrs, it's very interesting.

[m1thr0s]

It's all about basics really...but I agree these are difficult to second-guess. What I want to do here is suggest to you a situation in which you adventure into, your ass properly covered by some talisman that purportedly cannot fail, only to find out that when the shits really starts flying it shatters like a cheap light bulb...what do you do then? Because that stuff really does happen...

The solution is to know how to rebuild it astrally but in order to do this with any real force and fire you have to be able to build it with the specific intention of being battle-worthy...it needs to be fashioned like an actual weapon to wield the authority you want it to be able to hold. The Axial system can't do that because it's all about refraction...reflection...dispersion, sure, but after the manner of a prism. If the prism cracks...the spell is broken...

It lacks cyclical cohesion, thus it lacks organic stamina...this is what I need to lay out graphically so you can see it better...but not tonight.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Ok this is difficult, I don't know for sure what you mean exactly but I will wait for clarification, but don't rush it or anything, I can wait...

I understand what you are saying about the reliability but I don't know how you discern construction differences here. There must be some kind of underlying principle you are usingI don't grasp quite yet.

[Naomi]

I'm not saying this is bad mind you, if I hit a wall it usually just means I've got some more studying to do, all signs this system is testing my limits.

:)

[Naomi]

I was talking to this friend about it and she says the advice is good about the bagua mirrors because she can see the dispersional effect would make the situation quite worse, but she adds that she o nly wants to buy some bagua mirrors anyways because she likes looking at them.

So I suggested to her that salt may make a better addition to the backyard along the rim because the symbology of salt is built right into the molecular structure at a very basic level.

It is cube shaped, 58.4428 molecular weight (22.989768 Na + 35.4527 C1 atomic) and has a special bond with H2O pairing up like two perfectly balanced individuals as we can see in the sea...

Cubes essentially are, I think one of the best traps you can build for unethical types of spirits and the fiery core of salt in the sense of being used for witchcraft lends itself to cleansing designs.

So yeah, back to salt....ut as you said it beats using some neophyte tool that was wrong in the first place and cracks under pressure.

I have no idea if you use salt but it has a great variety of uses around my house, sometimes I sleep on piles of the stuff in bed, it keeps people (small children, cats) out too because it's intolerably scratchy for them...

[m1thr0s]

I am working on a few graphics that should (hopefully) clarify this stuff a bit...but you have to bear in mind that as far as I am concerned even the worst possible expression of the Ba Gua is still going to stand you in better stead than the vast majority of other gadgets out there...

So we are talking about what is optimal...not what is good or bad, right or wrong...

Hopefully the graphics will clarify...be patient...this takes a little time to put together and I have a lot of other things requiring my attention just now...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

Ok...here we go...

First of all, I mispoke and it's just another great example of why we need these types of discussions. I asserted that the Axial system of Fu Hsi was limited in that it does not account for cyclical continuity. This is only partially correct. The Abstract System of Fu Hsi (also called the Early Heaven Sequence) is a little awkward in the sense that it is a reverse-order alignment of the 8 Kua (or ba gua). We don't really know why this is but we do have evidence to suggest that the Fu Hsi system doesn't originate with Fu Hsi at all but comes down to his time from an earlier epic under the Nu Kua period of some uncertain distant past. Some archeological evidence has been found suggesting that this arrangement did not always begin from Heaven as it does under Fu Hsi, but did, in fact begin from the Yin. If this is the case, it would make more sense because - numerically - this arrangement does in fact begin from the Yin and resolve into the Yang. It is the exact same arrangement as I am calling "Earth Ascending" from the Four Pillars, save only that under the reign of Fu Hsi it mysteriously reverses order and begins from the Yang, running backwards.

Here is your original talisman set up so it can be scrutinized a little better:

Earth Ascending

http://abrahadabra.com/images/bagua-ascending.jpg

Tha Axial pattern is fairly obvious, although the claim that this is the only way to achieve this is complete gibberish...there are numerous ways this can be accomplished. All it tells us is that all of the trigrams are paired to their horizontal opposites in the circle...not a major feat in itself since that's pretty much what trigrams do! If you look at your dot pattern in the sigil, you will see that it exactly corresponds to this arrangement of the Lo Shu Square, displayed here without ornamentation so we can see it better. But the important thing to understand is what is happening in the circle, because this is not half-hazard or random. The blue sigil is indicating the exact chronological pattern of the ba gua as they align numerically. This is a very important symbol not seen in most texts on the I Ching (unfortunately) that yields a very striking Tai-Chi symmetry based entirely on the numerical order of the ba gua in this immediate arrangement. Your talisman is thus expressing "Earth Ascending" and does in fact coordinate both linear and cyclical directions.

Nevertheless...it is not as powerful as this arrangement:

Heaven Descending

http://abrahadabra.com/images/bagua-descending.jpg

This is the balanced compliment to the Earth Ascending arrangement that actually does correctly begin from the Yang and resolve into the Yin via the numbers. I have for many years referred to this as the Abrahadabra arrangement simply because it has no other historical precedent that we know of, yet fulfills requirements within the Tree of Life better than any other arrangement we can get in the numbers. This is Heaven Descending and it also displays both Axial and Cyclical alignments...

So - if you want a really killer talisman that kicks ass in all directions, I would suggest carving the first on one side and its inverse on the flip-side. This would actually give you a condensed version of the TwinTrees arrangement in the extended Trigrammal Fields system...and no damn ghost from any graveyard on earth is gonna put anything past a talisman of that magnitude.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

ooh I'm going to have to study this tonight. thank you.

[m1thr0s]

sure...the thing is...understanding the principles that make these things work also gives us additional options. It would be possible to create a similar talisman for each of the Four Pillars for instance which would then be applied to the Four Directions and owing to the relationship of the LoShu Square to the Tetractys would not be a difficult stretch to devise a Fifth at Center. Many times we hear these blanket claims that one thing is uniquely superior to all others but rarely does anyone selling us this bill of goods have the skill to tell us why that is...if it even is at all (and in most cases it isn't)...

so-called *tradition* is forever losing sight of the principles by which certain things may have come to prominence and in many cases no longer understands these at all but just goes along dumbly parroting motions it no longer has any explanation for. People who create this stuff to begin with are operating on an entirely different level. On the one hand it makes things simpler, just sort of following the recipe as given...but there is a fine line between the simple and the simplistic. If we are really interested in power or energy itself, we really have no choice but to break things down and reconstruct them according to their found principles.

Sometimes we might miss something...nothing is risk-free...but eventually these things can all be rediscovered if they were ever discovered by rational means to begin with.

addendum: One of the things we need to consider when looking at the numerical relationships of the 8 Kua is that the Chinese sages probably never even looked at any of this directly. To the best of our knowledge, they did not have any kind of formal *binary mathematics* in the way we would think of it today. They did have a geomantic mathematics rooted in the natural yin-yang relationships of the I Ching, so that it is possible that from their perspective backwards and forwards was all about the same thing. In numbers we progress from 0's and proceed to 1's so that the numerical value of our final characters will be greater than their origins. The Chinese sages may have made no such distinctions at all but only considered sequential patterns in the changing lines themselves. I read an article on this premise not long ago but did not think to bookmark it at the time...it may have been through Joel Biroco's excellent website though since I dip in there occasionally to brush up on my history.

But if this is true, then we may recognize from this that we are bound to discover a few new things about the Kua based upon the more discriminating mathematical logic of a formal binary mathematics, which to the best of our knowledge was only recently introduced through the work of Gottfried Leibniz in the early 18th century. And of course it surfaces yet again in genetics science in ways it almost certainly did not in Ancient China or we would very probably all be speaking Chinese today. Mysteriously, some sort of genetics understanding does seem to have existed even in very ancient times, but as we have discussed in other places, the exact nature of that knowledge would have been starkly different than our grasp of it today.

Proponents of tradition seem to always be banking on the idea of *hidden* knowledge concealed from the eyes of the profane and so on, and certainly some of this is true, but it cannot very well excuse pretending to any knowledge that we ourselves have not in fact obtained. Many teachings about the I Ching are simply lost to history but all of its most vital mysteries are embedded in its language, so we need only study that language at length to discover what these may be. We may not arrive at the same poetics as the Chinese Sages, but we will almost certainly arrive at a more sophisticated mathematics in the end.

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

"Last page saved", there! Im also looking fw to researching that.

Its really amazing: Naomi comes up with a problem that seems to be utterly idiotic (to me at least), and then it develops into a great discussion- keep it up!

edit: by "idiotic" I dont mean the posters but that if I had such friends I simply told them that "if you are such superstitious f+cks then dont move next to a graveyard"..:laugh:

[m1thr0s]

I was going to mention before K that it was Heiddeger's work on the whole principle of *being* that really ignited my own sense of courage regarding the nature of 0 and 1, ultimately making it possible for me to analyze the situation clearly. The reason for this...the reason that this matters...is because Leibniz assigned the value of 0 to the Yin and 1 to the Yang based upon some unknown criterion he never really discussed and no one has even once challenged...until I came along. I have no problem with this assignment so far as it goes but in the matter of chronological orders our Alpha point must always be 0 or the entire logic falls into chaos. This means that the only way to arrive at a proper chronological order beginning from the Yang is to assign the Yang the value of 0 - something which has somehow become a kind of cultural taboo, especially now that computer science has fallen in behind the same assumptions, ie 0="off" or "passive" states while 1="on" or "active" states.

It's just a side point, but I wanted to indicate something about how this whole philosophy of *being* becomes important in this kind of analytical process...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Yeah, well, you don't know my mom K...her intelligence lies in other realms as does all of ours I'm sure.

Anyways all of this math makes me go crosseyed, I don't want to think about it right now. I'm having a really bad relationship with math currently, it'll pass in a week I'm sure.

Now I just need to find my carving kit....

Thank you for the discussion m1thr0s, it's quite interesting even if I can't understand all of it just yet.

[m1thr0s]

I'm sorry the math seems overwhelming naomi. I think I lose a lot of people on that basis. I'm not a mathematician myself...it's not my formal training or anything. Strangely, I am pretty good at physics itself...I've got a powerful aptitude for what is generally called topology I think, in particular. That has a lot more to do with form than it does numbers, although if you happen to be good at numbers I suppose it helps.

Oh well...I went ahead and added symbolic icons to the ba gua...maybe that will help in some small way...try focusing on the energy itself and ask questions as they come up...that's about the best I can do I guess.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

You know I was thinking that the Greek schools were formatted the same way - it was basically just a bunch of philosophers getting together and boozing it up and shooting the shit back in the day, and they would have cool lectures and stuff, and nowadays it's just a bunch of dumb kids in an ugly sterile classroom listening to professors who they don't even like....and they call it "Greek" in some mockery of the whole foundation...it's so unkind to history and to those same philosophers. I get kind of a sinking feeling in my stomach when I reflect on this "the demise of the human race".

Anyways reminds me of the problem with the standardization of ars magica.

it's actually not the math itself that gets me, it's the math I don't use regularly I think...it just bores the crap out of me unless, of course, it pertains to an interesting subject and that it rarely does at initial stages so I have to get over it somehow.

I'm not good with numbers at all my first memory of them seems to be getting confused about why "nine" is not "9" which is a problem of language itself and not an actual math problem, there's just this constant overload of information that causes me to make really easy problems more complicated than they actually are. I'm pretty good with complicated equations though.

topology, of course...that's a good area for dimensional sciences. I don't think I'm really ever going to be great at typical math problems in this lifetime at least, I've gone way too far in other directions. I actually don't care which is also good I think...

OK to be perfectly honest the symbols are awful, I hate those elemental triangles, I actually resonate really well with binary, bars and negative spaces for some reason....must be the simplicity of it. I really love the I Ching just the way it is.

The symbols strike me as gaudy and overworked.

I know that's possibly not what you want to hear but I really kind of appreciate the effort anyways.....i thought it looked really awesome to begin with.

I keep focusing on the meanings of the trigrams themselves individually and what I really feel I need to focus on is the traditional crap with the I Ching because to be honest I really haven't had enough time put into that. So don't think this is all on you, I just started with the I Ching not 6 godamned months ago...

:D

[m1thr0s]

The symbols strike me as gaudy and overworked.
I know that's possibly not what you want to hear but I really kind of appreciate the effort anyways.....i thought it looked really awesome to begin with.lol...it doesn't really matter to me personally. I didn't invent them or anything. They are kind of an alchemical script first introduced by Lama Govinda in a book called the Inner Structure of the I Ching. I'll probably leave them in but you know how to take them out or if you like I can send you a couple of tiffs that don't include them...

Try to think of these images as just schematics since that is all they really are. If I were to actually make physical talismans with them I would change things to be more visually appealing. Right now I am trying to get to the bottom of a few governing dynamics in all of this...

Among other things, it helps to explain why it may be useful to us to be aware of more than one version of the Lo Shu Square for instance...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Ok I do...that is a good reminder though.

I try not to pull my punches on stuff with you cuz I know it's important to be productive but still I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I jut like the barcode look I guess...the ornate symbology thing is a huge downer for me

But you're ok with it so it doesn't matter anyways.

hey I'd like to see you give a demonstration on your knowledge of topology though, that would be friggin awesome....

[m1thr0s]

it isn't about art in this immediate instance...there is a principle being outlined in the icons that needs to be hyphenated in the example...having to do with genders...red icons = yangs - black icons = yins, yet some characters switch genders while others do not etc...

I may just be talking to one person at a time but I have to keep the door open to all persons...that particular principle is important.

I'll make them a little smaller just for you Naomi but in this immediate example they need to stay.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

oh well when you put it like that it suddeny makes it more appealing and sensible...

hmmm

[m1thr0s]

If you didn't want to use numbers at all you could just do this:

Earth Ascending

http://abrahadabra.com/images/bagua-ascending-geo.jpg

and...

Heaven Descending

http://abrahadabra.com/images/bagua-descending-geo.jpg


m1

[Kuroyagi]

I also dont understand much of it yet, and mainly due to inclination and a bad teacher I also was not always very good at physics...I have to actually study all of this much more but it helped me when comparing the first and the second graphs/talismans on page 3 IIT, and alikening them to the TS- then, doing so somehow much falls into place...maybe try it too, Naomi: just overlay the TS, inverted on the first graph and trace it starting below for a change...then do it "the normal way" and look -while doing it- at the second...somehow the reasons are there for me at least, then..and also in the numbers btw, intuitively so...for me the numbers in the second are stronger but maybe this is wrong? They look stronger also in sequence as they are there- e.g. 618 [better] vs. the weaker 816, but maybe this hasnt got anything to do with the mechanics, I dunno. I have only a few rational anchors at this point since I had to neglect these studies a bit...but the idea with the TS comparison came cause I normally make everything- every technique, every shape- circlular on inception of my training with it...in the case of the TS this made no sense and I discarded this line of thought/imagination soon but now it floated up into my mind again...

Yes m1, you mentioned a couple of times that you also looked into Leibniz and corrected his finds/interpretation there...the things you say about Heidegger sound good: Heidegger is very strong into Being "To On" [that what is, in Greek] and thereby into creation, itself, basically...some of it feels very parallel to these things, too...

[m1thr0s]

When a thing is built correctly to begin with, the amount of time and energy required to charge it up and keep it running at a high level of efficiency is minimal. So if we belabor structure at points, that's pretty much the practical reasoning behind it...that, and it's good to have some confidence in the idea that you might actually be doing more good than harm with the shit you toss about in the name of magick...or whatever...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

When a thing is built correctly to begin with, the amount of time and energy required to charge it up and keep it running at a high level of efficiency is minimal. So if we belabor structure at points, that's pretty much the practical reasoning behind it...that, and it's good to have some confidence in the idea that you might actually be doing more good than harm with the shit you toss about in the name of magick...or whatever...

m1thr0s

We should tell everyone this because it is quite frankly not that obvious, especially with Crowley and his gang and all of the other intellectually rampaging mobs running about in his aftermath and the death of humankind...

I actually was not aware of magick having any kind of structure worth a damn because it all seemed to me to be floating debris from some historical schism that occurred. You can't trace back any of it until we make the connection to Sumer and Ningishzidda mostly....

(this is why I find Ningishzidda compelling myself, not just because he is a Satan.)

ok...

Do you have a twinstar copy not attached to a background m1thr0s? I can't actually build one myself... :dull:....at least, not one that looks alright...

I need one I can slide my stuff under

[m1thr0s]

I don't always know what the hell Crowley is playing at and I typically care even less these days (he is dead afterall...). I build stars to very demanding specifications...that's what I do...I'm a star-builder...just like some people are body-builders, only I focus on universal bodies.

So in my case it matters a great deal...more than most people can even remotely imagine...the kinds of shit I belabor right down to the micro-pixel level because when you blow that sucker up to 10 million x magnitude it's gonna get real damn ugly real damn fast if it has been built wrong to begin with...

Crowley's a poet...I'm a technician and he doesn't hold a godamm candle to me at what I do...but then...my poetry sort of sucks so I guess we're about even in some respect...

I have all kinds of TwinStars naomi...I'm multi-tasking right now though so I don't know exactly what and where you want it applied...PM me or something and I'll get you a copy.

m1

[Naomi]

lol. ok I will pm you sounds good.

[m1thr0s]

I actually was not aware of magick having any kind of structure worth a damn because it all seemed to me to be floating debris from some historical schism that occurred. You can't trace back any of it until we make the connection to Sumer and Ningishzidda mostly....funny you should say that since I think that for a lot of people that's where everything seriously blurs out...

This all kind of makes me wonder what the point is though...when logical explanations get lost on the best of the best maybe it's time to try an altogether different approach...

I can't help wondering, for instance, if I just started producing talismans that really do work according to the kinds of standards I can personally vouch for...would anybody even know the difference?

surely some would...but it's possible that the clear majority would not and that would be an interesting thing to observe... It's a time-sensitive sort of problem...given enough time it would all make perfect sense but in the interim only a difference in craftsmanship would leave very much of any clue I think...

In any case, there would be a lot of funky tools lying about that nobody would have a freaking clue what to do with...lol...

so...which end does the lightning come out of? hehe... :cool:

edit: I'm pretty sure I have acquired the skill at this point to design an effective talisman for just about any situation you could think of. Possibly not always the absolute best in all situations but minimally very good...well above average...and in many cases downright startling....curious...maybe I should be spending more time doing just that.

I'd have to charge up for them though...a really top-notch talisman takes a good chunk of time to hash out...and materials matter...and information must be gathered...in nearly all cases historical references consulted...it's a pretty serious craft all in all...and then there's spells to work out as well...many talismans require specific kinds of maintenance...things you do and don't do with them...meditations or rituals that go along with them and so on...that's the tricky part since people often don't get the whole self-responsibility connection at all.

I imagine I'd be getting a lot of requests for money and sex and vengeance crapola...some things never change.

m1

[MythMath]

I'd like to commission a talisman intended to
establish and maintain dynamic balance...

With some kind of variable frequency control
(or is that my role to play in the circuit?)...

Cost is no object...

I'm going to ask.cosmos for the funds...;)

My birthday's coming up in June...

[m1thr0s]

If you're serious MM go ahead and PM me...there will be some questions to sort out...

also...if you have any information on holographic printing services that will work with glass (not plastic)...let me know please. I am doing a little digging but it's an ambiguous sort of area...

I have this idea that a dynamic visual medium might circumvent a lot of traditional complications...it has to do with starting from a clean slate psychologically. To some extent we saw this happen with the whole *dream-catchers* fad...there's nothing new about dream-catchers but because they were packaged up in a new way it sort of recharged their whole dynamic.

holographic glass is something I have had in the back of my mind for some time...

m1

[Naomi]

Homemade holograms : the complete guide to inexpensive, do-it-yourself holography
1st ed.

Author: Iovine, John.

Publisher: Blue Ridge Summit, PA :Tab Books,
Pub Year: 1990
Pages: x, 230 p. :
ISBN: 0830674608,0830634606

Summary
Holography--the recording of three-dimensional images using a laser light source--is a young and rapidly growing science that can offer you the opportunity to greatly widen your creative horizons. Even if you have little or no laser experience, Homemade Holograms will give you guidance you need to create low-cost holograms using a small isolation table you build yourself.
Distributed by Syndetic Solutions, Inc.

[m1thr0s]

oh great...something else I will have to do all by myself... :(

not sure what's up with holotech stuff...it doesn't appear to have advanced much in 15-20 years or more...a little in electronics and that's about it.

weird actually cuz it's pretty cool stuff.

m1

[Kuroyagi]

In my experience, ppl who consider themselves as decent craftsmen and take pride in their handiwork (if at all) are much better artists than those who claim to be artists and ah so creative yet will neglect technique cause its allegedly "inferior" to them...

I myself have proven to me that I can acquire all the sex and cash I want by "magical" means/or personal ability alone...this was maybe a necessary step (for me)...this is maybe a definition for plain "magic" insofar as one cannot exactly explain or teach all that it involves, and neither can one construct such things (like real working talismans) for others either at that stage, maybe to do that is "alchemy" that Im intersted to learn and study - or maybe its called: the new science- after all...if I want a good suit I'll go to my trusted tailor and if I want a god- or star-body I'll go to m1thr0s ;)...well, this is only simplified cause the comparison ends at a point. Yet, there are ppl with bespoke suits who look ridiculous with their pear shaped bodies- like Colonel Sanders-types, basically- and not all the money in the world could buy them flash and elegance or that certain je ne sais quoi...

[Naomi]

I went through some holographic production books, this is not doable by any logical stretch of the imagination unless you're just limiting yourself to stickers or prints, it's too complicated and glass requires a commercialized endeavor I think.

I did learn how to build a table that weighs a ton

The ideal situation for holography is inside a cave they say, due to the immovable nature of the locale, that would make this art ideal for hermits, wouldn't you say?

Except we can't get WiFi down there...

[m1thr0s]

K...lol...yeah...I'm happy to report I do not build the colonel sanders model anymore...I did attempt a few such models in the early years but they corroded faster than was morally acceptable... "Is a god to live in a dog?..."...Liber Al vel Legis

m1

[Naomi]

In my experience, ppl who consider themselves as decent craftsmen and take pride in their handiwork (if at all) are much better artists than those who claim to be artists and ah so creative yet will neglect technique cause its allegedly "inferior" to them...

I myself have proven to me that I can acquire all the sex and cash I want by "magical" means/or personal ability alone...this was maybe a necessary step (for me)...this is maybe a definition for plain "magic" insofar as one cannot exactly explain or teach all that it involves, and neither can one construct such things (like real working talismans) for others either at that stage, maybe to do that is "alchemy" that Im intersted to learn and study - or maybe its called: the new science- after all...if I want a good suit I'll go to my trusted tailor and if I want a god- or star-body I'll go to m1thr0s ;)...well, this is only simplified cause the comparison ends at a point. Yet, there are ppl with bespoke suits who look ridiculous with their pear shaped bodies- like Colonel Sanders-types, basically- and not all the money in the world could buy them flash and elegance or that certain je ne sais quoi...

pfft, if that were true I'd be sleeping with half of occult forums and I wouldn't be working, you can't have your cake and eat it, too...

At least it's not true of everybody, hell maybe you can Kuroyagi, want to lend me like $5 for lunch? But it's ok I'll allow this sudden surge of prosperity consciousness because it is good for us all in certain interims.

I only go to m1thr0s for tips on how to do my hair, thank you for informing me of his other talents.

[Kuroyagi]

I was talking to the craftsman and not to the other customer there...;)

edit: I should add that the Colonel Sanders stuff and the suits comparison was only that- a metaphor...but to take it further one could say that you can have the best suit made by the best tailor yet he also only can work around the body available to him (and if its a fat old man-should I say: w/o manners and self awareness? :p lol- then thats it!)

[m1thr0s]

not a chatroom folks...

K...sometimes it's better just to leave nature's little failures to nature. It is however comforting to note that even nature makes mistakes every now and then...hope for us all in that case. And in all fairness, we can't entirely blame nature for crap that people have invented on their own bizarre initiative anyway.

N...you may be right about the holographics. It doesn't seem like it should be such a big deal to produce a free-standing chunk of holographic glass that could be hung like a stained glass window or something but for whatever reasons nobody seems to have done this yet...or if they have the price tag comes in at $10k + or better... not very practical.

m1