A Polish Pagan Tradition Approaches

[erilaz]

I know at least some folks here will find this interesting...

http://culture.polishsite.us/articles/art297fr.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzanna

YouTube - marzanna

[Naomi]

interesting they say the rite was reintroduced to replace Christianity by a communist government. I am interested in archetypes like this because I havn't figured them out yet. Whether one dark goddess is the same as another is a puzzle that I've been sorting out for a decade. In my opinion, they conceal their secrets more densely than any other archetypes, but they are not identical, their emotional range is subtle but undeniably different.

The only way to really discern is to experience the line to one of the archetypes and compare.

In the Wiki article they compare her to Hecate but I wouldn't do that. I would instead equate her with the Morrigan. (terror, etc) and also the Mesopotamian goddess Erishikigal...

Erishikigal was married to the plague god Nergal of Assyrian familiarity at one point so this would also be consistant with Marzanna's plague affiliation.

[erilaz]

Yeah, like you I sometimes think people try a little too hard to link certain gods and goddesses together. Your own connections are interesting though, since Eastern Europeans may have Middle Eastern in their genetic background. The only really solid claim I've seen as far as linking Slavic deities to other cultures concerns Perun, who can be connected with Thor and, further back, Indra. Then again, Perun's rival, Veles, seems a lot like Loki. Slavic, Germanic, and Vedic paradigms all have a common proto-Indo-European root, of course.

The ritual here is very interesting to me, given that it allows people to participate directly in the cycles of nature and the cosmos, much like the burning of the sunwheel in Northwestern Europe.

[erilaz]

Well, to be more accurate, the Middle Eastern-Slavic connection seems to have more to do with Southern Slavic peoples, such as Croatians. But I'm still new in studying these things.

[Naomi]

May? Undoubtedly, though people don't like to hear it. We native americans commonly dispute the idea we all came across the Asian bridge even though the evidence is all right there, even in our cultural practices which are nearly identical to the beliefs in ancient Japan and repeated in the tribes in close proximity to Asia, in and around the Olympic Peninsula, and my damned Chinese relatives blend right in with the natives at Pow Wows.

In the same way it's interesting to note that there is a heck of a lot of German blood in many jewish families that fled Nazi Germany, that's not real well documented either, but Nazi-Jewish marriages happened as well.

In Dark Heart of Africa there's a racist passage that describes Italians and Spanish as inferior because they were so-called mullato, intermingled with North African bloodlines betrayed by the olive complexion and thick black hair, an obvious assertation.

So yeah, we're alot more intermingled than people are wont to believe. Just look at how incredibly creative and beautiful Italian civilization was, they held nothing against intermixing of races and even encouraged the outcrossing as evidenced by the Sabine incident.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the ritual "allowing" interfacement with nature and cosmos, to me these are all just obstacles on the path to true interfacing, where you don't even have a concept of tools and symbols, it all becomes a gauche display when true nature reveals himself. herself, whatever. At one point they are ladders to the next level, at another just more skin to shed. Everything has a false and true side.

I don't even get into pow wows much anymore, not even the sun dance, for the same reason I havn't found any interest in a parade since I was 10. It's just an empty solar based ritual, and I'm wont to work at a galaxy wide level now.

If humans are going to transcend to the stars they need to first expand outwards beyond the limits of this system, first mentally. Then they have conquered this region and can extend out to Mars and beyond.

[erilaz]

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the ritual "allowing" interfacement with nature and cosmos, to me these are all just obstacles on the path to true interfacing, where you don't even have a concept of tools and symbols, it all becomes a gauche display when true nature reveals himself. herself, whatever. At one point they are ladders to the next level, at another just more skin to shed. Everything has a false and true side.

I was thinking mainly about the difference between a pre-Christian culture and the culture brought by the early church, which has often led to a more denatured view of existence in different communities than had previously existed. Christian culture at least ideologically was far more ascetic and world-rejecting than the indigenous cultures it came to dominate, wouldn't you say?

If everything has a true and a false side, can't the same rituals you're disagreeing with have meaning? What you're saying seems contradictory, but maybe it was intended to be. It seems you also make use of symbols, as does everyone. Isn't use of symbol and ritual a pretty common human experience?

[m1thr0s]

that's a pretty wimpy ritual as rituals go...
I wonder if the people burning this effigy understand that this is intended to increase its power for instance...in which case a more elaborate ritual send-off would actually be more useful all around...
somehow I doubt it though...this seems to be a forgotten remnant with very little meaning left to it at all...
magic-theater can be fun...and occasionally even potent. But if you're gonna do it...get into it I think...I really hate ritual magic that just comes off like a bunch of neurotics standing around trying to impress each other...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Yes, it's contradictory, paradox is the fluid conductor of reality it seems.

If you're thinking about what you're doing in a ritual, chances are it hasn't begun working yet....

:D

It should be thrilling and so exciting you can't even keep your pants on!!!

[Anibis]

Well sometimes ritual is like a voice, and sometimes it is like an echo... In the hands of a magician it tends to project reality, while in the hands of a non-magician, it usually functions to affirm certain values which are pre-existant. Of course it is possible that people working within occult orders are practicing without force, and also that a person could magickally perform a ritual activity as simple as brushing one's teeth... Sometimes, the flossing is so much, my trousers seem to jump right off of their own accord...

There also seems to be another sort of magick which works remarkably, if unpredicatably: the Luck of the Fool... it cannot be controlled so much , but it seems to act to preserve folk who are willing to adopt a particular type of innocence... This would be the sort of magick that appears as the universe lining up to support the work of a person who does nothing more than go into it full-heartedly...

Just some reflections...

I think of clowns, and I think of magicians, and in their performance forms, I have found that clowns have a certain sort of strong and wild magic about them, that alot of technical magicians miss out on.

This is going off topic, though... This polish ritual reminds me of some sort of ritual human sacrifice. Probably it is an echo of a real one somewhere in history... Makes me think of the Kobold character in Neil Giaman's American Gods...

-A-

[Naomi]

I think you're f.o.s. ANibis, how could brushing one's teeth have any sort of magickal application worth a damn?

Feel free to start a new topic on this...

[MythMath]

N, between the fact that there are 32 teeth and the
essential spinning motion of the brushing action...

Different dentifrices could include magickal ingredients...

The toothbrush as a magick wand...

Abrahadabra...

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/DILDOBRUSHsmall.jpg

[Naomi]

Is that....a combination lucite dildo/toothbrush?

[MythMath]

Do you see dildos everywhere...? :p

[erilaz]

I guess a post-modern magic wand should be multipurpose. Very nice.:rofl:

[Naomi]

great I can practice cock mongling and brush my teeth at the same time, wtf...

and no, I don't see dildos everywhere always, only on Sundays...

[MythMath]

I razz...

All in good humor... :yes:

[Naomi]

I'm actually laughing my ass off if you couldn't tell

[m1thr0s]

asses shouldn't fall off...might want to get that checked out.

does this topic have a point or something or are we just blowing smoke at this point?

m1

[Anibis]

N; you actually don't get it or you're just picking a fight?
-A-
All under will.

[Naomi]

asses shouldn't fall off...might want to get that checked out.

does this topic have a point or something or are we just blowing smoke at this point?

m1

well that depends, do you have a point?


Swearing doesn't constitute picking a fight Anibis, I am trying to see where you're coming from here.

[Anibis]

All Under Will, like I said. Pretty basic magick philosophy. If you do it on purpose, it carries a charge. Calling me full of shit very well may constitute picking a fight.... that's why I asked... Ritual is ritual. It can be big and fancy and 'occult', or it can be genuinely hidden in the acts of mundane life... Still it is the molding of time in the image of the adept... I am made of magick... I don't see how brushing my teeth (as a humorous example) could be anything but...
-A-

[Anibis]

It was ultimately just an example to illustrate that fancy ritual can be dead, and simple daily action can be filled with life. How do you miss this?
-A-

[Naomi]

The illusion of "doing something on purpose" is a trap many purported magicians fall for, in my inspection of the condition in magick I have discovered very few magicians actually accomplish anything of worth in their entire life. For one thing we don't even know what constitutes the soul or love or any other number of objectives designed to be unveiled by occult study.

Modern magick is a colossal failure, comparing an act of will with brushing your teeth only underlines this pathetic state of affairs. It would be like counting a mote of gold as part of your collective worth, it means nothing on any sort of logical scale of measure.

How could I miss it? How could I fucking care?

[MythMath]

Everything's energyprint is scalar...

And everyone's perspective is unique...

Energy that is willfully linked to any ritual
act can be effective in 'modifying reality'...

How does one measure 'worth'...?
_______________

(That was post #23, btw...)

[Naomi]

By how much pleasure it lends you, since it's all on loan anyways, and you're not worth a damn if you're not creating worth....you will be erased...it's easy. Just study a few economics on a mundane level to determine universal worth protocols, however, the currency is quite a bit more primitive. (actually this is a mistake, by human standards life is very very very advanced compared to a fistful of money or plastic)

Thanks for the number monitoring man :D, made me laugh...

This is so off topic though, why can't you mods make a new topic split?!

[m1thr0s]

I do think an important point is often missed in this whole idea that "every intentional act is a magickal act*...which is reasonably true and at the same time is also something of a platitude. I rather prefer the Motown version: *Everything is Everything* so far as platitudes go - at least it carried a sense of humor with it...

What gets missed is the fact that not all magickal acts are created equal...or if they are created equal in some sense...they do not fall out with equal relevance in the greater scheme of things. If a person has truly reached a place where brushing one's teeth is the same exact thing as blowing Restriction's ass to pieces in ways that will profit all of humankind holistically, then for that person *every intentional act* really does carry about the same amount of weight. I don't actually know any such persons and would not be vain enough to bestow this achievement upon myself like a silly little word game with no actual proof of anything attached.

There is a huge difference between how things may become and how they actually are in most cases. So from where I'm sitting brushing your teeth is just brushing your teeth and nowhere near the same thing as *Raising the Foundation of Man* (the stated purpose behind qabbalistic mastery)... I think we lose sight of the fact that the Great Work really does have certain tangible objectives attached to it that make it an extremely serious (and difficult) work, not to be confused with the simplest labors of getting through your day...not that these things are unimportant...but their importance is ultimately remedial in comparison.

People who do not get this...in my best judgment...have completely lost sight of the sheer magnitude of the work of the Magus. That many may have fallen into this trap is hardly surprising - it is a much bigger task than the vast majority of people can really manage very well. I think western tradition has made certain tactical errors in this respect in that a Magus should be set apart in his work the same as a priest or a top-flight scientist and thus allowed the privilege of doing what he/she does best to the utmost advantage of all. Instead we have this *everything is everything* approach going on that essentially makes the work of any common dog equivalent to the work of the Magus by default. This is great miss in my view...a fatal error at worst...and one of the saddest ignorances in public circulation today.

The reality is that not 1 in 10,000 people is really very much qualified to even begin this kind of work in my experience and the travesty of it is that we have no reliable standards to distinguish the qualified from the unqualified...it is a very nearly hopeless situation, yet with time and a great deal of repetition, what is actually a lost profession at this junction may yet find its way back into the light. This is the *devils bargain* that has been struck, but it is ultimately a kind of ruse and not at all the reality. By telling 10,000 people that they are all the Magus by right of birth (or something), perhaps 1 might emerge that actually answers to the challenge. Sadly, he will have to live with choking to death on the other 9,999 who have makeshift certificates to prove just what mighty freaking Magus's they really are... It was a terrible bargain...a hail-mary sort of pass right down the line and it may take some time to undo the damage done. Everything is only Everything from the vantage of Perfect Wholeness. For the rest of us everything is fundamentally at odds with everything else.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I actually said this, weird:

"Life goes to those who don't squander it on purposeless things. (only ones own true self knows what is purposeless and what is not - no one will judge you rightfully in this)"

[Naomi]

I do think an important point is often missed in this whole idea that "every intentional act is a magickal act*...which is reasonably true and at the same time is also something of a platitude. I rather prefer the Motown version: *Everything is Everything* so far as platitudes go - at least it carried a sense of humor with it...

What gets missed is the fact that not all magickal acts are created equal...or if they are created equal in some sense...they do not fall out with equal relevance in the greater scheme of things. If a person has truly reached a place where brushing one's teeth is the same exact thing as blowing Restriction's ass to pieces in ways that will profit all of humankind holistically, then for that person *every intentional act* really does carry about the same amount of weight. I don't actually know any such persons and would not be vain enough to bestow this achievement upon myself like a silly little word game with no actual proof of anything attached.

There is a huge difference between how things may become and how they actually are in most cases. So from where I'm sitting brushing your teeth is just brushing your teeth and nowhere near the same thing as *Raising the Foundation of Man* (the stated purpose behind qabbalistic mastery)... I think we lose sight of the fact that the Great Work really does have certain tangible objectives attached to it that make it an extremely serious (and difficult) work, not to be confused with the simplest labors of getting through your day...not that these things are unimportant...but their importance is ultimately remedial in comparison.

People who do not get this...in my best judgment...have completely lost sight of the sheer magnitude of the work of the Magus. That many may have fallen into this trap is hardly surprising - it is a much bigger task than the vast majority of people can really manage very well. I think western tradition has made certain tactical errors in this respect in that a Magus should be set apart in his work the same as a priest or a top-flight scientist and thus allowed the privilege of doing what he/she does best to the utmost advantage of all. Instead we have this *everything is everything* approach going on that essentially makes the work of any common dog equivalent to the work of the Magus by default. This is great miss in my view...a fatal error at worst...and one of the saddest ignorances in public circulation today.

The reality is that not 1 in 10,000 people is really very much qualified to even begin this kind of work in my experience and the travesty of it is that we have no reliable standards to distinguish the qualified from the unqualified...it is a very nearly hopeless situation, yet with time and a great deal of repetition, what is actually a lost profession at this junction may yet find its way back into the light. This is the *devils bargain* that has been struck, but it is ultimately a kind of ruse and not at all the reality. By telling 10,000 people that they are all the Magus by right of birth (or something), perhaps 1 might emerge that actually answers to the challenge. Sadly, he will have to live with choking to death on the other 9,999 who have makeshift certificates to prove just what mighty freaking Magus's they really are... It was a terrible bargain...a hail-mary sort of pass right down the line and it may take some time to undo the damage done. Everything is only Everything from the vantage of Perfect Wholeness. For the rest of us everything is fundamentally at odds with everything else.

m1thr0s

You went and edited I see.

I think this was the point of Chaos Magick, with the fake certificates mocking the "authentic" orders which summated to so much bullshit in the end. To the very end, standing on the threshold of the death of humankind itself. What a joke...

It's hard to find a good magus you know? I really find them to be extremely rare, even in a crowd of self-proclaimed ones. They're just not advertised in the phone book.

Capability, not words, is the measure of a true magus, and as far as I know, they are alone in their work, self sufficient and needing no occult order so far as I can equate on the highest echelons of universal viewpoint.

[Kuroyagi]

Capability, not words, is the measure of a true magus
I think thats basically true, but the problem is that many dont even attempt to have goals beyond any earthly ones (beyond hypocritical words along the lines of: "yay look at me I'm Lord of the cosmos [and now I wanna become rich, so help me]" lol)...in my view there are no magi at all (not in the Crowleyian sense at least)- not a single one- the best you can get is someone who has in certain aspects mastered or at least understood fundamental manifestational components of reality or nature. The best can intuitively hint at what they may yet strive for....thats all.

[m1thr0s]

...in my view there are no magi at allthis may actually be true K, although it is an extreme travesty that this would be the case. In my view one cannot really fully be what the world itself will flatly disallow because these things...these *professions*...are interactive or they are not professions at all...like a doctor not allowed to practice his art...or in other cases an artist or scientist or educator politically barred from his craft.

so in many ways *the magus* is just a dream of what it may have been in the distant past or what it may be again in the unforeseeable future. Now is actually more a time for street-fighters and scrappers...people skilled at fighting their way out of dark and filthy corners. Some will do this through their art...some will make a stab at science...even future science may be possible. When I look at the work of Grant and others all I see is dementia really - not to single him out especially, but he makes a stark example of someone who would seem to think of himself as a bona fide *magus* but is ultimately so encased in political redundancies that it's just another vanity really...going nowhere especially useful...signifying nothing of any real importance. A defiant bookmark in an obsolete phonebook...ordo-templi-who-gives-a-fuck...life has moved on and the stakes have never been higher.

I think sometimes you have to abandon the trappings altogether and just go where the pulse may be thrumming, regardless of what it may be called or how the world would frame it...

for now perhaps the magus is dead...dead but dreaming, as they say...

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

What would be characteristics of the "profession" of the magus (of the future) in your view?

Hmm- I cant comment much about Grant since Ive only read The Magickal Revival some years ago and found it funny but couldnt take it very seriously then...(that was more at the beginning of my interest in the occult)- but it could well be that I would even find him (at least poetically) inspiring now...he seems to draw heavily on Lovecraft and Spare- I would be interested in your take on latter but I think you havent read anything by him yet?

What I like still is when an author mixes the levels like art and science and fiction with fact: this is of course somehow "dangerous" and annoying if one doesnt know the stance of e.g. todays sciences itself, yet its fascinating me...I think the problem is that its very often not done on the highest possible level (the old Hermetic trend of balancing and/or unifying all is still present nonetheless in it)...yeah there are incredible hacks around of course (also on other boards who live well by selling some books) who cook up some diluted philosophy or psychology and make it palatable for the occult crowd...this place here is better cause its actually the only attempt online (of that I know) to conclusively select some of the workable parts in various systems...I dont wanna "praise" too much but I can imagine that if I had dedicated my life to "alchemy" I would have liked to do exactly that- so this here safes me lots of time, tbh..;)...I mean this not condescendingly or anything- but in my view many things I adopt into my learning do exactly that- be they the works of scientists, philosophers whoever-: to safe us time: to build upon others works: this is the -only- chance for the human race! lol.