Invoking style used in L.T Christophers, 'Kabbalah Magic'

[Dark Lion]

Am working from the book, ''Kabbalah Magic'' by L.T Christopher and only realized this when I started in elemental grade, read the book before but missed it out. Invoking is traditionally done in a clockwise fashion so I didn't pay attention to detail when I first got the book to come across it when starting out is well.. annoying, have tried to use it but its really annoying worse still theres no reason given for it at all.

In invoking he states that the practitioner invoke from;

South - West - East - North

The author then states that the banishment of the 4 worlds of said element be done in a similar fashion, from South - West - East - North.

Going around in that way missing the North going to East and then round again to the North just messes with the flow of the ritual, especially as I'm in 1=10 grade and so have to face North to then return to East to complete the second line of the circle... the same is asked of in regards to the other grades...

In that style it goes from;

Fire - Water - Air - Earth

Active - Passive - Active - Passive

** Will come back to this when my hayfever has settled .lol.

[m1thr0s]

If you studied a thousand different rituals you would probably arrive at at least a dozen or more underscoring elemental game plans, so you shouldn't take any one instructions as descended from the throne of godhead. Perhaps the author has his reasons, perhaps not...oftentimes we find people passing on these kinds of informations that have never even taken the time to perform the operations themselves. Even some of the greats, Eliphas Levi and others, have been found guilty of this at times.

Certain schools of tantric yoga continually emphasize listening to your own body as the only rule that is really paramount above all others. The same is true of ritual magick...no matter what has been laid down in print you ultimately have to hammer out what works and doesn't work for you and it may not be the same for everyone. Unfortunately there are risks to this...some things may seem right in one instance that are not right in the longrun, just like with martial arts or various other disciplines. A lot of times the correct way to do things may not be the most intuitive until you've performed that action a thousand times or more and have uncovered its more subtle qualities.

It is reasonable to ask *why*, even though this in itself can also be a detriment if overindulged in. Given enough time and practice you can usually sort it out yourself. But in general, one has a right to know what principles are being employed in certain ritual applications...from this you may decide to make custom modifications, understanding what the rules are and how they may be tweaked to suit your immediate purpose. I would absolutely never invoke the circle zig-zag style as defined. I would find this completely annoying and counter-productive to anything that is important to me personally. Still, when playing in other people's sandboxes you may opt to play by their rules just to see how it goes.

One of the important things you have not given us is the author's understanding of elements corresponding to directions. These are not the same in all instances. Does he see Earth in the North or Water? Earth in the West or Water, maybe Air? Fire in the South? Air in the East, maybe Fire? These things are simply not always the same in all systems. Certain systems of so-called Celtic magick may not ever even include Fire at all for instance, though I cannot vouch for their authenticity myself...

The Tree of Life descends Fire - Water - Air - Earth. My best guess is that he is trying to simulate that but has Water placed in the West and Earth in the North. This may be correct with contemporary Wiccan elemental alignments but it is not universal to all systems...

m1

[Radiant Star]

...you shouldn't take any one instructions as descended from the throne of godhead...
Indeed.

I know of two very experienced practitioners, one of whom has done a great deal of research and out of that investigating used to teach a group. Both people went a few years down the line having had rather a lot of initiates go through their groups only to find, on further reading and researching that they possibly had been passing on incorrect information.

If our experienced leaders can uncover new knowledge and make mistakes, then its absolutely possible that we may take a lifetime finding what works for us and it also makes me think that small adjustments probably don't make a great deal of difference in some areas, though sorting out quite which areas are not worth taking risks over is another matter to consider.

[Dark Lion]

It is reasonable to ask *why*, even though this in itself can also be a detriment if overindulged in. Given enough time and practice you can usually sort it out yourself. But in general, one has a right to know what principles are being employed in certain ritual applications...from this you may decide to make custom modifications, understanding what the rules are and how they may be tweaked to suit your immediate purpose. I would absolutely never invoke the circle zig-zag style as defined. I would find this completely annoying and counter-productive to anything that is important to me personally. Still, when playing in other people's sandboxes you may opt to play by their rules just to see how it goes.

Yeah, grates with me having to go past the North and go back around to complete a second circle, am in earth grade at the moment so its not that bad but I couldn't carry it on into the next grade, the same is asked for each.

Did change it after looking for a reason for it all it but as you said I'm in someones sandbox so I've gone back and carried on as is. Can make it work but would rather stick to the standard method, especially when banishing...

One of the important things you have not given us is the author's understanding of elements corresponding to directions. These are not the same in all instances. Does he see Earth in the North or Water? Earth in the West or Water, maybe Air? Fire in the South? Air in the East, maybe Fire? These things are simply not always the same in all systems. Certain systems of so-called Celtic magick may not ever even include Fire at all for instance, though I cannot vouch for their authenticity myself...

Its a course so theres not much information given, he references the usual sources throughout, asks of the reader to use the initiation rituals in the Golden Dawn manual for example, gives the LBRP as normal;

Air in the East - Fire in the South - Water in the West - Earth in the North

But then goes into the elemental grades invoking and banishing in an irritating criss cross fashion.

The Tree of Life descends Fire - Water - Air - Earth. My best guess is that he is trying to simulate that but has Water placed in the West and Earth in the North. This may be correct with contemporary Wiccan elemental alignments but it is not universal to all systems...

m1

Hmmmm... the course is more QBL based than others, has you going through each grade doing the tree in each of the four worlds, Body in Assiah and so on, imposing them according to scale rather than simply invoking the element and not doing much with it all. Definitely a QBL based reasoning for the style given but, well, its a bit daunting to find without asking the author, kind of unfair on anyone new to magic.

Your point sounds like it could be it, think it is, but in banishing the element (''Banishing the 4 powers'' not the LBRP) he states that one should go round in the same fashion as when invoking... urgh... definitely in his sandbox now, can't change it if theres semi valid reasoning behind it... think being tangled, in a circle might just negate what ever makes it valid though. Really want to change it .lol.

Thanks for replying btw, much appreciated.

[m1thr0s]

*qabbalah* is wide open to interpretation, for whatever that's worth. Even the roots of qabbalah are more than just a little suspect. The Zohar itself is almost certainly a compilation of source materials current in the 13th century borrowing from numerous traditions at the time of its writing. There is no sound evidence to suggest it dates to anything older than this in itself. Unfortunately, its author opted to conceal his actual source materials and instead concocted a tale regarding an ancient manuscript that was never produced during his life or after it. Under pressure from people looking for this manuscript after his death, willing to pay a good sum of money to obtain it, his despairing wife is purported to have admitted that the whole thing was her husband's own work. She would have been happy to sell it if there was anything to sell since he apparently left her quite broke. Still, people seem to have fancied the fabrication over the truth so the legend of its more ancient roots lives on.

None of this implies that there isn't a great deal of truth to be had in the Zohar itself...but we simply don't know where many of these ideas may have originated as a matter of historical fact.

It is important to understand these kinds of things because it tells us a little about what magick itself really is and how it tends to work. We would often like to think that there are certain unbroken lineages that have somehow managed to come down to us intact, preserved through the careful administration of secret societies and so on. In point of fact, the broader your personal knowledge of mysticism and magick may be, the better off you are in general and the more capable of making your own informed decisions as to how things should be done.

Which tends to imply a lot of homework, which is unfortunately just how it is...

But it's not all bad or anything...it can be very liberating realizing that you and, say, Abramelin the Mage, may have a lot more in common than originally imagined. Our over-reliance upon unqualified experts in this area is one of the major deterrents we are immediately confronted with. There are indeed certain experts who can impart all kinds of interesting things. None of them actually trump your own emerging expertise.

m1

[MythMath]

Keepin' it real... :yes:

[content persephone]

There is a good post here: http://www.ecauldron.com/rethinking.php
by Mike Nichols regarding elemental correspondences.

Personally, I have used this system (for lack of a better worde) for many years and it works well for me. But I do also believe that the most important thing is that whatever system one uses, it resonates for the practitioner.

[MythMath]

That is a good article...

I enjoyed the content, persephone... ;)

[m1thr0s]

Mr. Nichols puts way too much emphasis on the notion of "ritual tampering"...a term he hammers on with an almost desperate enthusiasm. He claims, for instance that the notion of Air in the East is completely unacceptable to him, yet the reasons some people would place Air in the East have to do with its qabbalistic correlation to the Sun itself. Tiphareth, for instance, is represented by the element of Air in the Tree of Life. The rising of the Sun in the East would be seen as a direct correlation with Air as a "noble" (ie, ascending) element. Winged archetypes of all kinds have long been associated to the Sun as well...

I think that "ritual tampering" is a weak argument that caters to prejudice and distrust in general. Rather I think we are more often dealing with genuine differences in context and really...so long as you maintain the balance of elements and can navigate effectively within whatever context you have elected to emphasize, I fail to see where the real damages are anywhere near as great as the perceived ones. Ultimately, the 12 Banners (http://www.mazzaroth.com/Introduction/TheNamesOfGod.htm) allows that any combination of the 4 elements at quaternary points is intrinsically valid.

Other than that, I liked the article as well and I think he makes a good case for Air in the North...

m1

[content persephone]

I think that "ritual tampering" is a weak argument that caters to prejudice and distrust in general. Rather I think we are more often dealing with genuine differences in context and really...so long as you maintain the balance of elements and can navigate effectively within whatever context you have elected to emphasize, I fail to see where the real damages are anywhere near as great as the perceived ones. Ultimately, the 12 Banners (http://www.mazzaroth.com/Introduction/TheNamesOfGod.htm) allows that any combination of the 4 elements at quaternary points is intrinsically valid.

m1

I really am not knowledgeable about Kaballah to address whether, within that system, it might not be perfectly logical and reasonable to work with Air in the East.

And, as I tried to state before, as long as the practitioner is comfortable with and confident in the correspondence system that they are using, I don't see that their workings would be particularly ill-affected based on that alone. However, working in a system that doesn't personally resonate for you - and I speak from a bit of experience here - will certainly detract from the effectiveness of one's spellwork/magic/working/ritual (whatever you want to call it). That I know.

I know a few very experienced witches who use the wiccan correspondences with Air in the East and have excellent results. Shoot, I know a couple witches who only use various types of elemental magic and use a totally different correspondence system than I do with good results. (Not to even begin to get into cultural and other types of differences within the fairly small group of witches I have met over the years.) I believe that there can many paths that lead one to the "right" one for them. I had to find and trust the one that was right for me right now.

At the risk of pissing you off, Mithros, I will say that, like someone else who used to be on this board quite regularly ;) - I really really can't stand Mr. A.C. (or Gerald Gardner, for that matter). Neither of their systems ever "clicked" right with me in several ways, of which this is just small example. Many GD teachings were watered-down and twisted up by the time they ended up in Mr. G's hands - why should this be different? (I admit that I am somewhat of a distrustful person).

In any case, I know that's not really what this board/thread is about...so I will just be quiet now. :)

[m1thr0s]

I'm not sure why that would piss me off cp...but it really doesn't.

The 12 Banners is actually more a principle of geomancy/gematria than it is a qabbalistic principle per se...so it's a lot older than qabbalah, golden dawn, crowley, any of that stuff. I drag it out here only to illustrate a point with respect to 4-elemental arrangements in general...not to draw to qabbalah as the final word on anything...

I guess in the back of my mind I am thinking more in terms of an elemental arrangement I often use following none of these arrangements per se. It works, primarily because of how it adjusts vertical and horizontal axis to the body itself at the level of cosm...not because of how it might align to seasons, archetypes, traditions, or any other considerations really. So that makes me especially aware of how elemental properties may vary according to context.

and that's really my only point here...except for what may have seemed a literary criticism of Mr. Nichols article. I can't vouch for Gardner (or Crowley for that matter) and what they may or may not have deliberately mangled for personal reasons. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't...I guess my feeling is that it wouldn't really matter all that much unless you were relying upon them to define reality for you... I think we tend to use teachers incorrectly and certainly some teachers are willing to milk that error, though not all.

There's a saying in Taoism...only I can't recall how it goes exactly...but it basically asserts that one learns the Way only to abandon it and find one's own Way in the end...and I think that's basically all I'm really hitting on here...so you know...in that case, try them all!

m1

[content persephone]

and "hitting on" very well, I would say...thanks for elaborating a bit.

also thanks for the link (very interesting) - and all you do here at AF. At the risk of sounding a bit brown-nosy here - I always get lots of "food for thought" at this site (even when/though I probably understand about 1/3 of what's discussed).

I wasn't sure if referring to the someone who's not around AF anymore was the bit that might possibly piss you off, but I'm glad it doesn't. :)

[m1thr0s]

I wasn't sure if referring to the someone who's not around AF anymore was the bit that might possibly piss you off, but I'm glad it doesn't. :)that person may yet return...it still needs to be hashed out privately. I'm sure you have been the rounds with so-called infractions and crap. I've tired of the usual warning routine with no consequences attached. At the same time, if you go down that sterner road, you have to be willing to renegotiate terms I think or you'll soon be talking to yourself in public...:o_O:

ps...I'm really glad you find this place useful btw...it's just a little niché really, but it has its qualities...:cool:

m1

[Dark Lion]

Thanks for the link Persephone was an interesting take... of course the Egyptians mapped their world ''upside down'' what is North today was South to them and still is in some schools on the continent and other places, not sure about clicking with that one but if its Hermetisism people are talking then I wonder how or if that has been taken into account, the change and personalization must have taken place a long time ago.

Think the elemental attributes in Qi Gong are also diffrent although I'm not sure which and what way how.

Peace
D.L