Freedom?

[coma_gnosis]

I chose to follow the path of chaos magick because I believed it would let me be free, as opposed to other paths which provide a set morality with each one...

But as I continue to think and experience through my personal paradigm (am I using this word right?), I realize that my concept of freedom is changing fairly rapidly. For me, to be completely free is to not be bound to or by any belief. But then, if there is no belief, there is no experience, as without belief there can be no reality, because reality is as we believe it is... (at least, this is my view on it)

I realized that the things I do are not for total freedom, but free will. Being able to take action because I want to and to believe as I want to and to not allow any other being to take my will away from me... This is why I chose the path of chaos... it gives me an excuse to do what I want to and to ignore and rid myself of my fears and superstitions (although I do believe in everything a little bit).

I'd be interested in the opinions of the rest of you on this choice and motivation. Not because it will change my opinion and belief, but because it may bring up some new ideas for me to think on...

[m1thr0s]

belief in itself is nothing to be feared or avoided. The question of freedom is actually more a question of equilibrium...of balance within the belief system (or *construct*) itself. Can you afford to be wrong? And if your beliefs turn out to be wrong...what then will you do? Will you shrivel up and die from the humiliation of having believed in something that turned out to be wrong? Perhaps a higher caliber of belief will always be able to make adjustments on-the-fly...to adjust for Truth when Truth is finally revealed, no matter the inconvenience.

In general, I think humans can attain to no remarkable attainments without there being some vehicle of belief that pushes them beyond their logical limitations. I think we have to believe in something remarkable to consciously attain it for the most part.

For me the question of Will, or Free Will is not entirely resolved. The more I examine it, the less certain I am what it actually may mean. Some maintain that Free Will is no more or less than aligning ones personal will to the will of universe itself...of acting in perfect accordance with nature as a set of underpinning laws...much like a musician might operate within the laws of harmony for instance. There may be no such thing as Free Will that does not also include Free Being on all conceivable levels, and to Free ones whole Being (or Self), one may ultimately have to conform to those laws that make Freedom - of any kind - an accessible reality. Freedom is always a bit juxtapositional in some sense...freedom - as compared to what? Freedom - in what context? Taken entirely by itself, it would seem to have no rational definition.

m1thr0s

[Neshamah]

I agree, m1thr0s. We (as human beings) have to have a frame of reference from which to work; otherwise, we are just 'piddling in the dark.' The Void offers no frame of reference, therefore, we (as human beings) must create one through our 'beliefs' (read consensus).

I 'believe' that it would be advantageous for those who wish to practice Chaos Magick to have such a frame of reference before stepping off into the Void. Working with traditional RHP or LHP magick might provide such a frame of reference.

Light, Life, and Love.

For a Peace Profound,

Neshamah

[Neshamah]

Oh, about Freedom . . .

I heard a long time ago that "freedom is nothing more than nothing left to lose" (Kris Kristofferson => Janis Joplin). Perhaps we do have to give up everything in order to be truly Free. But which of us wants to give up EVERYTHING ?

I really can't imagine Free Will.

"Do you really think that you are Free ?"

Neshamah

[MythMath]

I really can't imagine Free Willy.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:9sdpw3o7goJmvM:http://www.env-econ.net/images/keiko250_250.jpg

{forgive me}

:p

[coma_gnosis]

First of all, I'd like to thank you for your quick responses. I honestly didn't expect replies so quickly.

I don't fear being wrong in my beliefs because the ones I hold now and will accept in the future are those that are the most compatible with me (or at least, my understanding of me) and permit the most rapid perceived growth (which may be an illusion, but I like the illusion). How can I regret choosing the beliefs I can believe most? In my understanding, adopting beliefs which are not as compatible with or completely against my personality would be delaying the inevitable, seeing as I would not hold onto to those beliefs.

As for modifying my personality to fit other "true" beliefs, I think that that would not work well for me, as I could spend the resources used to change my personality on further developing the personality and beliefs I already have instead. And how do I know that those beliefs are true? They could just as easily be as "false" as the ones i'd left behind, and I'd have nothing to show for the change.


The frame of reference idea makes sense, and here's the one made by my beliefs: All experience and truth is subjective, there is no universal truth that is compatible with all sentient beings except the idea that we exist, and even then I'm not so sure. Piddling in the dark is still piddling, and piddling in the dark gives you a chance to discover something wonderful or terrible hidden by shadows, as opposed to experiencing only those ideas that can be discovered on a traditional path. After all, most of those discoveries were made by piddling in the dark.

The traditional paths don't appeal to me because I believe they were designed with the idea that everyone has the same path if they're doing everything right. What these paths don't take into account is that everyone is different. Everyone has a different way of experiencing things, so why abandon my current method of experience for one that isn't as satisfying? After all, I arrived at my current method of experience by experiencing other methods that didn't fit me as well... Some even stunted my growth...

[Aehlex]

freedom is listening when your heart speaks the truth...the heart doesnt lie the mind does. True freedom is being allowed to do what one wishes without interfering with the freedom of others..its as simple as that..freedom is not having to pay for basic needs of survival...as long as we must pay for housing, healthcare, education, food and water..we are not free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my name and website r the same.........Aehlex

[Amur]

Thank you for your inputs... I believe that true freedom is found between the alignment of one's own DNA-code and the astrological positions of the planets and star system and that of the planet itself through a very complex form of life, at the moment humans are in a state of chaos because of some interrupting factors on this planet which caused this wide-spread chaos and other odd things, like that humans forgot all about what or who they truly were and their own abilities that was so harshly forbidden and taken away from them, so because of this mess I see alot of help coming to clean matters up as in no way was it ever intended for the humans to be slaves of any kind...

I believe true Will and Freedom is that which is linked to your inner-most being in comparision to your own life experience and inner self, the uncorruptable Essence which is forever guarded.

So in terms of music it's a matter of tuning in to that overly independent frequency that no one else has in the whole universe/multi-verse as we are all individual beings yet work coherently as a whole. But because of the poison running around in the mind-sets of human beings and constructs in the human collective consciousness that tuning can be difficult but there are now technology becoming available all throughout the world were people can tune into this own frequency of theirs, through the wild becloudenment of the mind and the bodily poisons which has been fed upon us for generations. Even more physical poison in our own generation and society with this form of capitalism for short sighted goals...

[Amur]

You might want to check into this (http://www.forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=2688&highlight=god) thread for the Will of the Universe in relationship to the Will of your own Being. Your Being is the Circle, which is inter-locked into Creational Patterns with other Beings creating the Unexplainable Creator in the middle, through alot of complexities of the web of life and so forth...

So basically, no one knows how it works and neither should anyone know how it works... Though if you want to know how it works, you might as well go through the whole universe and look at the planets how they evolve around each other and the galaxies and the super clusters and all the life existing everywhere in every dimension of space and time and what not...

[deviadah]

The answer depends on what is meant by the question. Naturally physical freedom is simple to understand. Mental freedom is a whole other matter and one I struggle with daily. The aim, for me, is to be completely free in mind... for me that includes:

- unbiased opinions
- right to think and feel what I want

This is why I chose the path of chaos... it gives me an excuse to do what I want to...

I have not really approved of Chaos Magic(k) yet... since I see some problems with it. Attractive concept though... but using Free Will, or Freedom, as an excuse to do what you want seems, to me, a bit nasty!

Free Will, and Freedom, should never be an excuse - nor a hobby - it is a glorious path to walk and should never be nothing other than glorious. Freedom makes you strong, makes you smarter and helps you to grow. The weaker a person is the less free s/he is!

Freedom demands respect, or it will eat you up and spit you out!

:cool:

{forgive me}

I'm not a Christian!

:vengeance:

[Amur]

The answer depends on what is meant by the question. Naturally physical freedom is simple to understand. Mental freedom is a whole other matter and one I struggle with daily. The aim, for me, is to be completely free in mind... for me that includes:

- unbiased opinions
- right to think and feel what I want



I have not really approved of Chaos Magic(k) yet... since I see some problems with it. Attractive concept though... but using Free Will, or Freedom, as an excuse to do what you want seems, to me, a bit nasty!

Free Will, and Freedom, should never be an excuse - nor a hobby - it is a glorious path to walk and should never be nothing other than glorious. Freedom makes you strong, makes you smarter and helps you to grow. The weaker a person is the less free s/he is!

Freedom demands respect, or it will eat you up and spit you out!

:cool:



I'm not a Christian!

:vengeance:

If you really want to be free just open up your pineal gland and connect yourself to the planet, yourself, your own consciousness and your universe that you live in, it gives you the right to feel and see things as they really are... Without prejudice, dogmas, belief or anything like that. (And I find it fairly funny that those idiotic forces tried to actually ruin that concept also through a very traumatic experience that just rather hurt me and made me a _BIT_ pissed off as to speak) To those forces I would like to say that be glad that there is a chain of consciousness that is all good wanting to protect you from actually destroying you alltogether from existence itself as I'm not a christian either and to be frank I'm just a little little "little" bit pissed off which would naturally mean for me :vengeance:

But be glad and very glad that I chose a path of peace...

[Azon]

A great thread! anyway on the subject of freedom imo one is never free...freedom is like purity imo it just cant be.
as for chaos magick I started toying with and then studying/using it as a means to a ends so to say....just as I did with other magick...

but yeah great thread :) ill be sure to keep a eye on this

[coma_gnosis]

Well, it looks like the majority of these answers say that freedom is abandoning the structures, ideas, etc. that bind a person and trying to connect to the rest of the universe, or to finding some form of "true will", or connecting to something bigger than the self...

So I ask... isn't the belief in a "true will" itself a binding factor? If you believe in a "true will" or a will of the universe, or acting without the influence of other people, things, ideas, etc... Doesn't that mean that you are bound by your own curiosity/ duty/whatever to seek and embrace this growth/understanding?

Isn't the belief in freedom itself a limitation? If you believe in freedom, doesn't that mean that your actions will be influenced by your attitude towards the idea?

Perhaps freedom is not being free from influence but is instead being free from influence not chosen by you. Perhaps true freedom comes from understanding and accepting some influences based on personal choice while rejecting and ignoring other influences based on personal choice.

To be completely free from influence is to be free from action or change... or is it? After all, what influences the creator to create? :rofl:

[m1thr0s]

deeper layers...very cool...

*ideas* of freedom...ideals that we birth in our own minds have to be regarded with a certain amount of skepticism I think. In most cases, we don't really know these things to exist for certain...it just makes sense to us in a creative sort of way. But the freedom to explore these ideas...even the freedom to be flat wrong about them...these things are more fundamental...more necessary to being productive human beings.

so there are these different stratas and some things are more essential than others...or at least more pressing.

I think maybe taking a look at Liber Oz (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html) might be useful to this discussion, because the question of freedom also encompasses the question of essential human rights.

m1

[coma_gnosis]

Crowley! Always an interesting paradigm through which one might experience...

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate this discussion and hope to experience many more like it! :yes:

[Xenocrates]

"To have freedom" is having available lines of thought and action, that if carried out, won't produce regret when looked at in retrospective.

Committing yourself to your freedom, "being free" is crunching our puny existentialist doubt into a little ball, eating it and carrying out the lines of thought and action previously mentioned.

It's quite possible that from these premises follows an identity of freedom and integrity.

(Or rather, I think this is a possibly valid way of describing freedom, at least for myself - if someone feels that another description of freedom suits him or her more and/or actually "gives more freedom", they'd do damn well to stick to that version! :D)