Chaos magick to shapeshift

[coma_gnosis]

I'll be honest. I want to use chaos magick to assume different physical shapes that are perceived as such by the "objective reality" (by that I mean that if I turn into a cat, and a human sees me, they will see a cat).

I believe this can be done. Shamans are reported to be able to assume the shapes of various animals and plants, so why can't I?

I want to do this so that I can experience and gain wisdom from many bodies and styles of living and apply my learnings in my interactions with other beings...

Any ideas? So far I know of the following:
1) Change the energy structure associated with the self so that the physical structure also changes.

2) Use psychokinesis, aetheric force, or some other physical force to reform the body.

3) Apply the concept of the new physical form to the old physical form.

4) Eat half an apple pie and scream the name of the physical form out loud until the change occurs (a very obscure and unorthodox technique, in my oppinion)

[m1thr0s]

well 2 things come to mind as a starting point...*sympathetic magic* and *aura*...

I'm not sure why chaos magick would have anything especially useful to offer here other than the fact that you may be more comfortable with it.

these are actually more akin to shamanic skills - only it's damn near impossible to find any real shamans these days, let alone study under one...

What you want will take you into the mystery workings of Mind and Body both...nearly all schools of magick and mysticism deal with these on some level so that's the good news. Some of this can also be found in the martial arts although these days you may be better off assimilating this at a distance...so many frauds in that one and they exact a heavy price...it's usually not much worth the hassle.

m1thr0s

[KaosSwirl]

I'll be honest. I want to use chaos magick to assume different physical shapes that are perceived as such by the "objective reality".


so in another words you dont want to be percieved as a cat by others while you still keep the literal form of yourself "subjective", but you want to be the cat independent of anothers perceptions "objective".

all you have to do to see the impossibility of this statment is to read basic anatomy...

why are people so obsessed with being something other then themselves magick isnt a method of running away from yourself, but is a method used to find self.

[m1thr0s]

shapeshifting can be a path of self-exploration, but the means to accomplishing this are not easy. the fastest route is to go with hallucinogens and specific sorts of animal-form rituals as most shamans would do, but for the fact that there really aren't any traditional shamans left today so you'll have to wing it. The odds are set pretty hard against much success to be honest.

Even martial arts will take you into some of this with their various animal fighting forms but this won't give you the ability to affect others perceptions of your appearance. And it's the latter part that especially comes into question I think. What exactly will you have gained if you assume the form of a hummingbird and others see the hummingbird instead of you? You will have experienced the thrill of a successful operation, but to what purpose? They won't be any wiser since presumably they have no idea what just happened.

So it might be fun and it might be instructive but it rather seems like an awful lot of work for not very much accomplished.

m1thr0s

[coma_gnosis]

KaosSwirl, I appreciate your input... although I'm having a little trouble understanding it. To clarify my intentions (as I'm confused by your explanation of my goals in your first reply), I wish to change the objective value of my physical body from that of one form to that of another. I wish to turn into something else. I am not running from problems, I am learning... Can a human body fly? Yes. Will it create a lot of trouble for the one doing it? Probably. Aside from the modern witchhunters and secret societies and people begging to be taught how, it could be quite exhausting.

Can a bird body fly? Yes. Will people freak out seeing it? Not usually, unless it's a penguin or other flightless bird... Then it will be captured and forced to breed with other penguins and the offspring killed when they cannot fly and- Yeah.

Say you need to enter a building. Turn into a fly. There are tons of small cracks and openings that would deny a human entrance but would easily admit a fly...

Modifying the physical form is something that can be quite useful. And I think it would be a lot of fun... Besides, what better way is there to detatch the idea of self from a fixed physical body image than to have no fixed physical body?


As for trying to be something that is not myself, how can that be? How can a being attempt to become something unless for some reason the attempt is compatible with their innermost being? Even those who are extremely distant from their true self and allow themselves to be influenced by "trivial" things are on some level complying with their true will, if in a weak and twisted way...

What I'm saying is this: perhaps it is my true will to shift from form to form and experience, use, love, and hate the different forms...

I believe that physical, literal shapeshifting is very possible. Why isn't it? All of existence is here, along with voids and other non-existential places that can be experienced. How did it get here? Did it ever get here, or was it always? Wouldn't all this seem impossible? How is telekinesis possible? How is telepathy possible? There are many explanations as to how each works (telepathy by energy links or vibrations or radio frequencies and telekinesis by aetheric force, demons, energy links, etc.)... as there is with physical shapeshifting... So why can't it be done? :confused:

m1thr0s, I appreciate your responses...
The goal is to be able to shapeshift in any situation. For pleasure, health, self discovery, etc.

With practice, any ability can be utilized practically. Telepathy may take a while to use at first, but after enough practice, a person could use it at will in any situation. I wish to apply the same principle to my life. For example: a group of very dangerous persons choose to target me to act out their aggression on. I turn into a big scary thing, they run. I shift back, and I go for a big mac. Sure, I could have used a lot less energy by persuading them with magick or psychology not to attack me, but then I would miss out on the looks on their face. Unless they attack me as a result of the shift and I have to eat their toes. Mmm... Toes...

As for the shamanic method, sure, there may not be any easily accessable "living" shamans, so why not ask a god-form to teach me?

[KaosSwirl]

^ ok im going to delete out my 2nd post now cause i actually gave you the benifit of the doubt and explained a method...

go play some d&d, or dress up like a bird and flap your arms..

[m1thr0s]

^ ok im going to delete out my 2nd post now cause i actually gave you the benifit of the doubt and explained a method...too bad...others are watching as well and might have benefited from your deleted post.

calling others names solely on the basis that you don't agree, or personally approve of their assertions doesn't make them wrong...doesn't make you right...doesn't do shit to win anybody over to your point of view...

try to control that shit around here please. You have every right to be annoyed at something someone else says. you don't have the right to start in pigeonholing them just to make yourself feel good.

we call this a *formal caution* in the forum admin business...

m1thr0s

[KaosSwirl]

calling others names solely on the basis that you don't agree, or personally approve of their assertions doesn't make them wrong...doesn't make you right...doesn't do shit to win anybody over to your point of view...


this isnt about me believing or not believing this is about it being a scientific impossability, the complete lack of common sense and the "open your mind and believe in everythings possible", without any simblance of understanding in anatomy or other physical sciences, and then people accepting there statments without a thought is whats killing the pagan community.

kids come on here and other forums in there very first tentitive steps into learning about paganism and the occult and there inundated with this type of misinformation and just to make it worse people actually back up there poclamations of impossibility with statements like yours.

i deleted my post out because this same discussion is going on in several different occult forums, and the complete lack of wanting to understand what shapeshifting is all about and instead a insistence to make it what you want it to be is the reason why this misinformation keeps getting spread and propagated.

im getting to the point where im truly begining to detest the pagan community as a whole for there incessent need to coddle those who spread and propagate fantasy as truth, so instead of asking yourself why im commenting in the way that i am, you should be asking yourself why topics like this are getting created and defended by those who proclaim to be knowledgable pagans in the first place.

[m1thr0s]

your position smacks of scientific fundamentalism KaosSwirl...and not everybody is going to buy into the same conclusions you have with the same religious fervor.

You can bitch about the *pagan community* all you like but I'm not a pagan and as an alchemist I also have an abiding respect for scientific truths...but there are more than one model of scientific truth in this world and that's just a fact of life.

you are entirely welcome to your point of view...you really are. I am sorry you deleted that post as I very much wanted to read it myself. It's a busy day so when I finally got the time to go back over it I find this...what really looks to me like a rather childish outburst when you were otherwise making some very good points.

I don't *coddle* shit KaosSwirl...I try to maintain an open mind purely out of motivated self-interest. It is my belief that a truly strong position can afford to question itself just as it can afford to be tolerant of other points of view.

If you find a person's position to be absurd...why not put that high-powered scientific mind to work and disprove it? Or at least raise enough good points to challenge it with dignity and force? What you are doing is just throwing a tissy-fit here and I really think it's way beneath your intelligence to do so.

m1

[MythMath]

I am sorry you deleted that post as I very much wanted to read it myself.
Me too...:)

[coma_gnosis]

well...

It's not as if my beliefs aren't founded in science... think about quantum physics. It's considered one of the "higher sciences" by many people, yet it can seem completely absurd to the one who doesn't or can't accept its concepts.

Science was supposed to be about understanding the universe. A scientist sees a phenomenon, then formulates a hypothesis on how the phenomenon works. Then the scientist will devise experiments that are supposed to prove or disprove the hypothesis... In the end, it's all about finding facts.

It is unfortunate, then, that science is used as an excuse to disbelieve a concept. For shape shifting, the "scientific" opinion is that it is impossible. Why? Because it hasn't been documented by "reliable" sources (btw, most sources are considered reliable only if they fit within the bounds of what is considered possible by the "scientific" community)? Because it hasn't been proven in a laboratory setup? Has anyone even experimented? There are many people with anecdotal evidence that support the idea of cellular shapeshifting. Is it really scientific to disbelieve something based on personal beliefs? That isn't an objective, logical method at all.

What about atoms, or atom splitting? Both were considered nonsense or impossible by the scientific community until experiments proved them otherwise...

Shape shifting is complicated, though. There are far too many things that affect shapeshifting to be able to devise a decisive experiment. Thus, I will believe. Because I won't try it if I doubt myself, and I can't remain objective in this situation.

As for contributing to the "fluff-bunny" problem, do you really think that beginning occultists are actually going to go into the chaos magick forum, which is listed under left hand path, the "evil dark scary place" that no fluffer ever wants to go?

Who are we to tell the universe and its inhabitants what is and is not possible?

[Callumagus]

trying to get back on track the actual question a little; i've never seen or heard of chaos magick being used for anything as dramatic and physical as shapeshifting (though we hear tales of shamans ascetics etc., there's really noone we can ask to prove it). however, if you're serious about it (and i don't see why it shouldn't be possible... all reality is transient, but obviously some preconceptions are easier to cast off than others), might I suggest that you begin with forms that are similar in mass/shape to a human? if you manage that, then work from there.