Free will an illusion?

[coma_gnosis]

Do we, as sentient beings, have free will?

The argument has been raised that because choices are influenced by beliefs, no person truly has control over what they do, because no person has control over what they believe...

So...

Can we control what we believe, or are we simply slaves to the many layers of beliefs and values?

[m1thr0s]

it's kind of funny how this question keeps coming up over and over again...I don't know if anybody ever really finds an answer they have not already settled upon.

I don't know about Free Will in any absolute sort of way, but here in this world there are many levels and degrees of Freedom. Knowledge is Power and Truth really can set you Free...

Free...from what? Oh well, shit like ignorance and poverty and oppression on many levels.

Compared to a dog, a human being is virtually a god and the difference in Freedom can be measured in the margin of personal choices the human has as opposing the dog...whose choices are pretty damn limited ultimately and whose behavior can be nearly 100% predicted according to its breed and environmental circumstances.

But culture limits personal freedoms and the more mechanized the culture, the less freedoms people enjoy. People are part animal - part god - from birth. It's the god part that questions things and wonders about free will etc...

So I think we do have these things at a seed level inherently but free will is not a static proposition...it is contingent upon overcoming obstacles in its path.

m1thr0s

[coma_gnosis]

But then suppose that humans can be predicted based on genetics and environmental circumstances? Granted, humans have many more environmental factors that can affect them, but knowing all those, isn't it also possible to predict a human's behavior?

Or is there truly free will? What is it that separates those who are influenced greatly by certain environmental influences from those that can be almost completely unaffected? How can two children be exposed to abuse, but only one grows up to be abusive? Why does the abuse change one child into a future abuser while the other child is left only with great emotional scars?

[wiz-oz]

But then suppose that humans can be predicted based on genetics and environmental circumstances? Granted, humans have many more environmental factors that can affect them, but knowing all those, isn't it also possible to predict a human's behavior?

Or is there truly free will? What is it that separates those who are influenced greatly by certain environmental influences from those that can be almost completely unaffected? How can two children be exposed to abuse, but only one grows up to be abusive? Why does the abuse change one child into a future abuser while the other child is left only with great emotional scars?

I think there's a time element to 'free will'. If you believe in past lives, then if you had full access consciously to them - your will would be conditioned by all of those past lives. If we come in without being weighted down by those lives - then that could be termed free will. So if time separates the layers, then free will and time are related. If cause and effect were instant - then no free will would exist. because as soon as you hurt someone - you're hurt back (instant karma, if you like) This is a Kaballistic view of time.

Having said that we may still bring in with us skills & experiences we need for this lifetime. So that may explain why one child becomes an abuser another doesn't. Experiences and environmental factors can't fully explain all behavior, nor the epi-genetics which are passed on in the DNA from generations. So consciousness must tap into 'something' else.


Having said all that - I'm not convinced about the 'F' word. Nothing in this world is for free in my book. Everthing is earned.

Shall I have KFC or McDonalds? Am I using free will? Not if you just saw their ads on TV. Perhaps it's by degrees.

Don't know if this makes sense to you Coma_gnosis. But if you have the time, I have the free will.

[coma_gnosis]

Interesting view. But then, what about the first lifetime (if there was one)? How did influences have varying effects on people even though it was their first lifetime (unless, of course, we are all the same person in different simultaneous incarnations...)? Are people a blank slate when they experience their first lifetime, affected by all experiences equally?

If time is a seperator of layers, how do some people remember their past lives and remain as they are? For example: I have a friend who's a really nice guy. He started to remember a few of his past lives and he told me that in his past lives he was a very "evil" person... Yet he remains a nice guy. The events that seemed to have shaped him into a monster in his past lives haven't had the same effect on him in this life... So perhaps past life memories do not condition the will as much as is thought.

As for the "something" else that the consciousness taps into, I'd like to bring up the idea of the True Will, Kia, or the Holy Guardian Angel as it is sometimes called. The idea is that every person has a unique piece of stuff that affects their personality and other pieces of their being. This piece is unaffected by anything, and it has an effect on how a person will interpret their experiences. In a sense, it's like being bound to your true self. Not sure if that's freedom, but it sounds fun...

[m1thr0s]

on questions like this I always think it best to draw in a few resources so we at least have some idea what ground has been covered and who some of the major contributors might be. While I don't pretend Wiki is such a great resource for in-depth information of any kind, it often proves an adequate starting point:

Wiki Link: Free Will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will)

I always get a sense with western philosophy of a bunch of stodgy old prudes sitting around debating how many ways it is possible to divide up a fart.
Perhaps it is just how quick we seem to be in the West to assign labels to things at the expense of content.

But the Vedantic view of Free Will caught my interest:

A quotation from Swami Vivekananda, a Vedantist, offers a good example of the worry about free will in the Hindu tradition.

Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here.[88]

However, the preceding quote has often been misinterpreted as Vivekananda implying that everything is predetermined. What Vivekananda actually meant by lack of free will was that the will was not "free" because it was heavily influenced by the law of cause and effect – "The will is not free, it is a phenomenon bound by cause and effect, but there is something behind the will which is free."[88] However, Vivekananda never said that it was absolutely determined and placed emphasis on the power of conscious choice to alter one's past Karma: "It is the coward and the fool who says this is his fate. But it is the strong man who stands up and says I will make my own fate."...and this is roughly what I am saying here as well and why I think "Free Will" has to be viewed as a process of becoming, rather than a fixed given of any kind...a *seed* property as I have called it, capable of development, even against all odds.

m1thr0s

[Icehawk]

Yes, Free will is an illusion! It is an illusion at almost every level. At the highest level the agent we percieve ourselves to be is an illusion. Secondly if you allow the illusion of a self to exist in truth you find that its decisions are all predetermined, determined by not only the personality and general character of that self but also physiologicaly and environmentally. Third if you seek the third necessary component element "free" or freedom you quickly realize that this to is an illusion and that. Making a choice between predetermined options and taking responsibility for those choices is the nearest you will get I fee but these choices are free with regard to the illusion of freedom.