Meditation and Drugs

[Seipiriz]

As a new Tantra practicioner and a novice in the fine art of meditation methods, I would like to set a question...

Do you thing that drugs help oneself, as a way of achieving a deeper concentration and if the answer is "yes", how do you cope with the negative results for the body system such as addiction and destruction of brain cells ???

[m1thr0s]

Some drugs do, yes. Others decidedly do not...it's not all the same thing because there is a huge range of drugs all of which operate in starkly different ways. As I have said elsewhere, my own chief interest in sacramental agents lies with the hallucinogens. Of these, I am the least interested in those that are known to be addicting, though I do not regard "psychological addiction" to be anything other than a governmental propoganda campaign personally.

Brains cells die anyway as a natural fact of aging and they die at an alarming rate once we pass a certain age...usually late 30's to mid forties... Nature has designed our bodies primarily to afford successful procreation and if we want anything more from them than that we will have to rely upon our powerful brains to manage it. We have at least been given this one fighting chance.

So I am not real keen on destroying the brain personally. I am rather fond of mine and looking to advance its capabilities in any way I can. I adhere to the Sumerian model of humankind that stipulates that human beings are part animal - part god by design. The god part has to negotiate the animal part and be willing to work within its limitations until at long last those limitations are no more. This does not happen in a single generation nor even a thousand it would seem but we are closer now than we have ever been to pushing the boundaries out to unprecedented extents. None of us really knows how far that potential extends. It may very well be limitless...

m1thr0s

[Amur]

There are many levels of addiction. But they all have one common factor which in fact hooks the individual and that is the psychological cause. Without the psychological cause(trauma-hole which wants to be filled) it's impossible to get hooked. I must say that I've gotten myself hooked to nicotine but I can very easily choose if I want to smoke or not (I prefer to smoke everynow and then some real and authentic tobacco, though haven't found any so I haven't smoked hehe)

You might find some interesting in looking at erowid (http://www.erowid.org) for some experience reports regarding a substance. But as said, every mind has it's own unique set of brain-chemistry, meaning that each will react to substances in their own kind of way. We seem to have a peculiar gene in our blood-line which seem to almost go hand in hand with altering ones state of consciousness, giving a direct and deep connection into spiritual realms which other are blind to.

As for the harmfullness of drugs, I find it a highly controversial issue. Most harm seem to come from the psychological effects which in turn comes mostly from incorrect energy-synchronisation and generally a stupid intent in set&setting. Other kind of harm(blockages) might come from the propaganda which goverments have pursued for a longer while already.

If I make a generalization in one area, the ones who are regularly taking drugs here seem to be much more relaxed and generally more in tune with themselves than those who do not. Although this is probably different for each culture in itself as Finland is quite weird already by itself. It's also noticable that animals do like to mess up their mind as well if they get the chance. Ever had a cat in an apartment with marijuana? lol..

Sumerians seem to have been quite far then with the design of the human brain. Modern science study suggests that humans have 3 brains, whereas the Reptile brain is the innermost(and has most power imo) which also drives the primitive functions such as survival, layered next is the mammalian part with all the territorial instructions and excretations thing (if you like to mark your territory try pissing all around your apartment when you move there as a test, I'm quite sure it will be YOUR apartment afterwards and anyone defiying it will simply just get their ass whopped :D )... next comes the neocortexian part which is also linked to mammals but if I understood correctly humans have much larger neocortex part than the rest.

Drugs generally induce a state of non-thought for me which makes my head more sober than when being sober. It's quite flipped backwards for some reason. But it might also be this messed up culture hehe..

Recent news in breaking up my own head with Earth's help seem to have come as far as to be able to change ones state of consciousness with pure will, which means to flip the entire surrounding reality also. Although I can't keep it yet, but alot of thanks goes to drugs and other weird states of consciousness'.

[Kain]

Here's a question I personally have had for a long time concerning drug-induced altered states of consciousness. Even though I personally do not engage in this technique, I know people who do and they usually describe the effect of whatever external substance they are utilizing as one that generates vast amounts of energy for them.

My question, which is directed towards all members here who may be practicing such techniques, is how, exactly, do you feel this generation of energy is brought about in your system? Is it an actual generation of raw energy to be used that is taking place? Or an altered state of consciousness that makes one conscious of vast energy reserves that until that point lied latent and unusable, maybe? If it is the first, how does such a genration take place and from what source?

Kain

[m1thr0s]

This is an important question to ask...what exactly is occuring in the body itself. I used to be a lot more up on my neurochemistry info but I can still relate a couple of things of interest. Most hallucinogens alter energy activity in the brain itself in some way but this occurs in different ways. Probably the most famous of these is LSD which is said to perpetrate what has been called the great "seratonin hoax". The LSD molecule is extremely similar to seratonin and passes for seratonin in the brain via the pinneal gland...the difference being the LSD is packing a much higher electrical charge than seratonin, so that when it is allowed entrance to the brain it literally creates an electrical storm in the brain itself at a cellular level. You can actually feel this happening because you get what is called and electrical-arcing activity within the brain cells themselves where the electrical activity is spinning wildly around the cell walls and you can both feel and even hear this occuring in most cases...it's what causes the "buzzing" sound that LSD produces. The curious thing is that the LSD molecule degrades rapidly and has completely disolved within 30-45 minutes after injestion, yet the resulting "high" may last for many hours because once this energy arcing has been initiated the brain itself will maintain it for reasons not clearly understood, keeping the storm going for upwards to 8-12 hours or more at a clip.

The result of this increased electrical activity in the brain sets up a range of sensory phenomena that is nearly impossible to predict with pinpoint accuracy. Aside from an energy sensation that is mostly describable as "ecsatatic" (and happens to be very physical) a wide range of phenomena are possible, almost always some sort of visual hallucinations, auditory hallucinations and a range of energy surges that might occur telekinetically in some cases or more physically in others. People may in some cases experience various "superman" capabilities being suddenly able to run farther/faster or be much stronger than usual while in other cases experience being able to see through walls or affect matter with their minds etc. The lightbulb phenomena is one that has been commonly reported...people being able to turn lamps on or off at will just by thinking about it etc.

A number of hallucinogens fall into the seratonin category but not all by any means. Others more closely parallel amphetamines but with different qualities. In almost all cases with the hallucinogens, an experience of energy amplification occurs on some level and almost always "ecstatic" in physical sensation. It has also been noted that this energy is very sexual in many cases and can definitely be felt at the spinal level.

But to know what each agent is doing in the body/brain itself we have to turn to neurochemistry which tracks this stuff and it is generally fairly possible to track it all down with the better known chemical compounds at least. Unfortunately just knowing what the compound is doing does not always explain why it affects the body/brain in the ways it might. Many mysteries left to unravel at that level.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Very interesting post m1thr0s, thank you very much for clarifying.
Most hallucinogens alter energy activity in the brain itself in some way but this occurs in different ways. Probably the most famous of these is LSD which is said to perpetrate what has been called the great "seratonin hoax". The LSD molecule is extremely similar to seratonin and passes for seratonin in the brain via the pinneal gland...the difference being the LSD is packing a much higher electrical charge than seratonin, so that when it is allowed entrance to the brain it literally creates an electrical storm in the brain itself at a cellular level. You can actually feel this happening because you get what is called and electrical-arcing activity within the brain cells themselves where the electrical activity is spinning wildly around the cell walls and you can both feel and even hear this occuring in most cases...it's what causes the "buzzing" sound that LSD produces. The curious thing is that the LSD molecule degrades rapidly and has completely disolved within 30-45 minutes after injestion, yet the resulting "high" may last for many hours because once this energy arcing has been initiated the brain itself will maintain it for reasons not clearly understood, keeping the storm going for upwards to 8-12 hours or more at a clip.So the seratonin category (with LSD presented as an example here) brings about a literal electrical storm of sorts in the brain at a cellular level, thus initiating a range of sensory phenomena that pretty much define and punctuate the so-called "high". In such a case, the energy amplification is pretty much already defined, as it electrically amplifies the cells of the brain itself. Now, I understand that, probably due to the self's bodies' interconnectivity and parralel function (subtle and gross alike), this amplification pretty much brings about a chain-reaction effect in all bodies and densities constituting the *Body* as a whole (in the sense of the Self as a unit). In other words, this electrical storm at the physical brain results in an effect perceivable in the subtler bodies as well. However, further question: Isn't this electrical storm equally possible to become a source of interferance in the practitioner's perceptual mechanism, since it pretty much bombards the physical brain with high amounts of electricity?

Another question I have is this: Is this hyper-electrical activity in the physical brain the source of all "high" sensations or just of the seratonin hallucinogen variety? Do all such substances achieve this effect in different ways, or do they in fact aim to achieve different effects in the brain?
In almost all cases with the hallucinogens, an experience of energy amplification occurs on some level and almost always "ecstatic" in physical sensation. It has also been noted that this energy is very sexual in many cases and can definitely be felt at the spinal level. Very interesting, and pretty much identical with the surges and energy amplification I am experiencing through Kundalini work. Is there a usual direction in the movement of those surges brought about by hallucinogens? For instance, I know that Kundalini work is primarrily punctuated by powerful surges of ascending energy currents, following the general route of Muladhara to Ajna, or base of spine to space between eyebrows respectively.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

Isn't this electrical storm equally possible to become a source of interferance in the practitioner's perceptual mechanism, since it pretty much bombards the physical brain with high amounts of electricity?Sure, sensory disorientation is a fairly common thing. Bright lights can be a problem as can hectic or uncomfortable surroundings etc. More experienced users have much less trouble with this sort of thing and may even go out of their way to place themselves in overwhelming circumstances in some cases but initially one has to learn that certain things are not adviseable. People don't usually take LSD and then report straight to work for instance.

Is this hyper-electrical activity in the physical brain the source of all "high" sensations or just of the seratonin hallucinogen variety? Do all such substances achieve this effect in different ways, or do they in fact aim to achieve different effects in the brain?It is common with most hallucinogens but achieved in different ways and a few things are classed as hallucinogens that are more like narcotics, deleriants and so on. Amanita Muscaria for instance is a completely different animal that Psylocybe Cubensis even though they are both hallucinogenic mushrooms.

Is there a usual direction in the movement of those surges brought about by hallucinogens?No. nowhere near as much as has been reported with Kundalini and this is interesting in itself. Kundalini appears to be a highly restless and highly target oriented sort of energy, like an arrow released from its bow or something, it's gonna hit something once its on the move. When energy is activated at the level of the brain, things are usually a bit less predictable, much to the dismay of many experienced users who may have been hoping for a reaction just like the last time and get something completely different etc.

But you learn to negotiate all these kinds of things so none of it is without its redeeming qualities. There are certain dangers associated to drug use...even the more beneficial ones. You'll never see me arguing against that. I've watched people go from perfectly sane to stark raving looney tunes so fast I could have done nothing to prevent it but in almost all cases I have felt that the problem was mainly one of ignorance...people doing things in completely the wrong ways for all the wrong reasons with neither the proper respect not the proper safeguards in place prior to injesting whatever they took. You wouldn't treat a car that way, yet people treat "drugs" as if they were all an extension of beer...which they are not.

edit: there are some chemicals that do behave more like Kundalini, so the above explanations don't apply in all cases. I have not done that many varieties of hallucinogens personally. It would be good to consult a good resource site like the Vaults of Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/) etc... I have noticed a certain circular quality with energy that activates in the brain vs that which activates along the spine, though both have been noted for their spiral qualities...

m1thr0s

[Seipiriz]

Having read carefully the discussion of you 2 I feel that I would like to give you a part of my experience of my work with drug addicts starting rehub... I am now in the 4th year of voluntary support to those people and have had many seminars about drugs and their effects on the human body system

First of all drugs have been prooved to cause the mass destruction of brain cells and in many cases have been considered responsible for the cause of instant mental decapitation and coma... Apart from the brain the use of drugs (from the so called harmless weed to heroine) are estimated to cause other somatical damage too such as augmented blood pressure, strokes, heart attacks and even teeth caries...

Secondly, as drugs support the organism with extra dopamine, which is the body fluid that makes us feel happiness and satisfaction, the brain stops the body production of dopamine and the drug user sooner or later develops the symptoms of Depression and therefore needs phsychological treatment to recover... Considering that half the Planet probably has tried them once and that in the past drugs have been used systematically for the control of revolutionary masses (hippies, rock and roll movement etc.) and that there is a general opinion that drugs are not such a big deal, dont you think that the mass control has been more or less achieved???

[m1thr0s]

These arguments are incomplete and inconclusive. Technically, everything we eat is a "drug" and brain cells die no matter what we do. You need to be able to draw a distinction between the kinds drug abuse you observed and a more responsible use of drugs for the purpose of self improvement. If you cannot do that you have really missed the whole point. America, in particular, is a nation of drug addicts compared to the rest of the world. The whole idea of using drugs in a more responsible way has never really taken root here, so we have no idea what this might even look like socially...

Historically, the work people have done in the area of higher consciousness has not always been entirely good for the body. The body has been an experimental playground for most. Just look at the tantrics for instance and the Siddhis of India and so on...much of what has been attempted is not your health-spa kind of stuff at all. People have taken huge risks with the body and will continue to do so in the name of higher consciousness. I don't think that's a bad thing in itself but it may not be something everyone is well suited to.

m1thr0s

[Seipiriz]

Historically, the work people have done in the area of higher consciousness has not always been entirely good for the body

Lol M1thros that is so true...If you take a look at my energy burns...

But still, I think that drugs need not be applied at all, I generally think is that the term "acid paradise" that many people use for them is quite right... I consider drugs to be a means to sort of lie to ourselves in order to achieve a certain state of mind, instead we can use our own mental energy to achieve this state and without being destructive , just by being creative;)

[m1thr0s]

...instead we can use our own mental energy to achieve this state and without being destructive , just by being creativenonsense. this is just the same old purile preaching I hear all the time, but there's not a stitch of truth to any of it. You bandy the word "drugs" about as if they were all the same thing but they are not. You talk about "lies" but natural phenomenum (of any kind) does not lie...it simply is what it is...what you make of it is up to you. Alchemists use whatever tools are available to them without a lot of moralistic judgment attached. If you believe you can accomplish as much without these tools then great...please do so. I happen to think you are sadly deluded and generally misinformed.

It's like I have said before...it astonishes me the degree of self-righteous prudishness this topic always elicits. It's completely unnecessary, invalid and pointless. People who use various agents in their work virtually never go out of their way to convince anyone else to do so, yet the people who do not feel like it's perfectly ok for them to speak down to the rest of us with stereotypal platitudes and skewed clinical-science drivel. It isn't. If you don't know what you are talking about...leave it alone. Just because you spend a few years in a rehab counseling position doesn't make you an expert on the correct use of sacramental agents. If anything, it has given you a distorted view of reality.

Having said that, there are in fact a number of issues that have to be carefully negotiated with regards to the use of chemical agents of any kind. There are ways to do them properly and improperly. There are matters of supplements that may be required to keep everything in balance. There are matters of reality distortions that need to be addressed to arrive at a proper strategy that will allow for the phenomemna to be properly observed, recorded and used. These are technical matters that only people who have first hand experience are really very qualified to address. Unfortunately, we very rarely get a chance to move on to this higher level of discussion.

What we typically find among the more intelligent users of hallucinogens et al is that they have a tendency to become fairly adept pharmacologists in their own right, much as people involved in serious dieting tend to become adept nutritionists. We want to know the "dirt" as much as anybody else but we want to know the whole truth...not just the half-truth. The fact that there may be certain risks involved never invalidated anything. There are risks involved in nearly any extracurricular activity known to man. Rather than avoid these activities, the solution is to become aware of the risks and take the proper measures to minimize or offset them.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Sure, sensory disorientation is a fairly common thing. Bright lights can be a problem as can hectic or uncomfortable surroundings etc. More experienced users have much less trouble with this sort of thing and may even go out of their way to place themselves in overwhelming circumstances in some cases but initially one has to learn that certain things are not adviseable. People don't usually take LSD and then report straight to work for instance.It is very interesting to me that I get the exact same effects you describe with Kundalini work...the only difference being that shutting it all down if need be is a lot more readily possible, although that of course has an impact in it shutting down more easily in a general fashion, even when I don't want it to. Reality distortions are pretty intense though and I have had various comic and equally rediculous accidents until I learned what I am and am not capable of doing in such a state. For instance I once hurt myself pretty bad trying to simply walk to the next room with an awakened Kundalini, only to realize that I actually ran into the door between the two rooms, which I somehow had no visual feedback for during that time due to the intense visual sensations I perceived...
No. nowhere near as much as has been reported with Kundalini and this is interesting in itself. Kundalini appears to be a highly restless and highly target oriented sort of energy, like an arrow released from its bow or something, it's gonna hit something once its on the move. When energy is activated at the level of the brain, things are usually a bit less predictable, much to the dismay of many experienced users who may have been hoping for a reaction just like the last time and get something completely different etc.

[...]

edit: there are some chemicals that do behave more like Kundalini, so the above explanations don't apply in all cases. I have not done that many varieties of hallucinogens personally. It would be good to consult a good resource site like the Vaults of Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/) etc... I have noticed a certain circular quality with energy that activates in the brain vs that which activates along the spine, though both have been noted for their spiral qualities...Very interesting...it might have to do with the top-to-bottom opposed to bottom-to-top approaches of energy generation. The circle and the square, and so on...It is also interesting to note that at some point I excercised accumulating and generating vast amounts of energy at particular energy centers in the body, observing the energys tendencies and overall behavior, and I realized that doing so in the Ajna center usualy brought about exceptionally intense visually perceptible energy fields that where moving in circular or elyptic patterns.

That's a very helpful site though, thank you for sharing!

Kain

[m1thr0s]

For instance I once hurt myself pretty bad trying to simply walk to the next room with an awakened Kundalini, only to realize that I actually ran into the door between the two rooms, which I somehow had no visual feedback for during that time due to the intense visual sensations I perceived...Interesting...almost as if *walls* are a learned sensory adjustment to begin with. I have experienced *forgetting* to acknowledge them as well, seeing right through them and then remembering I wasn't supposed to be doing that etc...

It is highly possible that right at this time none of our energy amplification methods are what they should be...not even the *natural* ones. Timothy Leary had a bad habit of sabotaging some of his own best ideas by framing them in a language too corny to be taken seriously, but one of these had promise anyway...the so-called *G-Pill*. His idea was that the generic hallucinogens we are aware of are only hinting at something much more sophisticated, which he defined as a *Genetics-Pill* that would behave in a similar fashion to LSD (which he defined as a suspending agent) save only that it would be DNA-specific to each individual. In essence his theory runs along the general lines of the existence of a "damping field" that requires conscious dismantling to be rid of it, in part because it serves other functions in nature essential to the balance of the ecosphere as a whole. This damping field is considered to be much stronger on-earth than it is off-earth and may also be linked to gravity itself in some way. In the language of *neuropolitics*, dismantling the damping field at will and with pinpoint accuracy is a key factor in linking human consciousness to its own universal neural network, presumed to be in place already.

All very hypothetical stuff but not without parallels in other places. So I don't really feel like any of us has latched onto the perfect methodology just yet. We are dealing with partial solutions that yield precarious results but are nevertheless significant enough to warrant a concerted follow-through. In the end, we will probably arrive at a much more sophisticated grasp of the whole issue, but not unless we are willing to scrutinize whatever we've got working to begin with...without a lot of moralizing or preconceived thinking since it is fairly certain that we will have a pretty good idea what's up by the time anybody really nails it solid. I see no reason to believe that this has occured in this world yet. We've only mastered flight within the past 100 years. Why is everyone so convinced we would have mastered something much more technically sophisticated than this already? I don't buy it. I think we have experienced various peaks in understanding but haven't really nailed it yet.

m1thr0s

[omniprosopus]

drugs are great. they go good with sex. kinda hard to focus though when you're brain is out to lunch.

brains work really hard though. they deserve to go out to lunch every now and then.

-omni

[Amur]

I'm mostly interested in learning how to launch certain neurotransmitters naturally with my own unconscious-self. Drugs are a very very large help in this as it creates a different neurochemical balance when being influenced by them. Being able to trigger it naturally can make one feel whatever one likes. This in turn can be directly programmed into synchronizing with ones Higher Genius which in turn would tip the scale, creating a cosmic boom :D Anyway, being able to release huge amounts of endorfins simultanously would already get one into an opiate-kind of heaven which would be natural, which in turn could be used to heal anykind of trauma. The possibilities are quite endless.

Seeing how 2C-I gave a crystal clear memory of any event in this life, it might be that the same effect can be reached by just releasing the right balance of neurotransmitters.

The most harmful effects drugs have is the politically and socially placed placebo effect of harm itself. It's quite interesting to notice this effect on ppl.

When stretching, for example, one can do it quite hard and press the body to some degree. The body is used to taking hits, afterall it has a very very good waste disposal built-in-system. Imagine what kind of crap people eat their entire lives lol. It's insane...

[Seipiriz]

I happen to think you are sadly deluded and generally misinformed.

I happen to have been working with experts on the area of drugs for many years and can say that this is not a big world spread conspiracy against ascension through "wise" use of drugs , drugs do harm the body system and call it whatever you like but I have not been in their need to furhter neither my practice nor my self esteem...

"Deluded" is not a word that generally describes me M1thr0s and I agree that you do not know me enough to tell if this is true or not, however, I wouldnt go out use harsh expressions to anyone over a petty matter of different opinions...

[m1thr0s]

There's a lot of stuff that is theoretically possible (or at least plausable) that just doesn't ever seem to work out. For instance, it is quite possible (in theory) that trigrammal field work...all by itself...could accomplish everything that Leary had once envisioned would be accomplished by the so-called G-Pill, only do it a lot better since it would also be tapping into a lot of other stuff the pill might not be able to access.

And yet, in my own case at least, this has not turned out to be very much of a reality. There are, however, times when something feels about to kick in that then slips out of sync again so nothing much happens...well...that's actually not true...something always happens, just not what I would like. Now there are several lines of analysis that might reveal the problem...it could be that there are problems with the code itself (highly unlikely) or we could just be dealing with a lack of sufficiently applied force (also unlikely) or there might be other set & setting parameters to be considered (working in a more controlled environment) or something altogether unseen and unaccounted for thus far. If I am working in an altered state to begin with I have no problem building powerful and dynamic energy fields but when that differential is gone everything slides back to a level that is too subtle to be very physically experienced.

So I do agree that the ideal is to be able to do all of this kind of thing unassisted by any artificial means...but the reality is that this really just doesn't seem to work. Why it doesn't work (as expected) is not entirely clear though. It is very possible that there are yet certain unknown variables or certain procedural omissions etc... This is an ongoing struggle but it's not all bad because progress itself does seem to happen irregardless, only in my case tends to be confined to improved insights and important corrections at the level of the construct itself. Not *nothing*, just not as glamorous as I might like...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

Let me qualify one thing very clearly about me Seipiriz. I never attack *opinions*...there's simply no profit in it. I attack arguments and I have a reputation for attacking them with a great deal of force in some cases. You have thus far persisted in an argument which I happen to find especially shallow and completely unsubstantiated...that *drugs* destroy brain cells and are therefor an inferior and detrimental form of consciousness exploration. This argument has been shoved down our throats from just about every source imaginable and is simply a load of crap that relies on a skewed representation of facts to make its case. If you can do no better than has been done already, you'll get nothing but opposition from me about it since the argument is not only false, but it is deliberately disrespectful in almost all cases. I only need to be more creative? Who the fuck are you to tell me that? The argument is flawed and it gives rise to a lot of attitudes I find reprehensible as well.

I am not opposed to you. You are certainly entitled to your opinions.
It is your argument I am taking issue with. I hope that helps at least a little.

m1thr0s

[Seipiriz]

If you think this is all about a large conspiracy about how to getting into people's minds and selling the idea that drugs do harm , but are in fact creative... Thats ok , its simply your opinion... Now the term "deluded" didnt have to do with arguments did it ??? Sure it didnt !!!

Who the fuck are you to tell me that?

Look, I am here just because I am new in this path of the road called ASCENSION and partly cause I appreciate part of your opinions myself. When talking about being creative I was refering to a comparison about creative spirituality and addicted spirituality and not about you in particular...Another thing, being a novice does not mean I have to take rude shit from anyone does it ??? And of course I do not have to take dogma-like opinions from the "Elders" around ...

The quoted expression isnt something a person I respect would use while talking to me and I strongly suggest you take as an example doh on that and see how she gave herself a warning when conducting a conversation like that cause thats probably the last you'll be hearing from me...

One last thing before I go: I have tasted what happens with drugs when paying zero attention and the real thing bites you in the ass....

[m1thr0s]

My "rudeness" is a matter of perspective. From my point of view your rudeness invoked my own. I don't jump in people's shit for no reason. It is possible however that what you meant to say and what you actually said are not the same thing. It will be a cold day in hell before I follow doh's example on much of anything, just so you know... I expect my natural IQ is running about twice hers to begin with but even if that were not the case her methods and mine are simply not the same. Doh has always been apologetic about being confrontational. For me, confrontation is a way of life...

I have stipulated numerous times now that there is a profound dfference between the proper and improper use of drugs.

The term "deluded"is a proper term in the context it was used, so no, I cannot retract it. it refers back to your insistence on using the phrase "destructive" as applied to ALL kinds of drug use as well as the idea that we can just do things with our minds that will effectively parallel anything drugs can show us. I don't know what world you are living in but I've been in this one for quite awhile and I have heard this said many times and demonstrated not even once. My opinion is that this opinion is "deluded", ie, it does not take reality properly into account. What "can" be accomplished in some idealistic fairy-tale reality is of no interest to me...only what is real, every day, 24-7...

edit: for what it's worth, I am not pulling any kind of rank here, age or anything else. This happens to be my site...I could pull all kinds of crap I suppose but it would be chickenshit to do so. I am defending a point of view the same as I would if I were any registered member. It's ok to disagree and I respect your right to abstain from drug-use for whatever reasons...or none at all. I will not stand by idly and be stereotyped as being into "destructive" transmutational methods without a fight.

Now it happens that SOME chemicals do in fact destroy brain cells at unacceptable levels, notably meth and ecstacy which are both very popular drugs these days. I cannot endorse any drug, no matter how popular, whose known destructive characteristics outweighs any good it can yield. But here again, *drugs* are simply not all the same thing. Some amounts of damage are acceptable, others are not. Damage in itself does not render a thing invalid, since there is no way to go through life without incurring damages anyway...

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Interesting...almost as if *walls* are a learned sensory adjustment to begin with. I have experienced *forgetting* to acknowledge them as well, seeing right through them and then remembering I wasn't supposed to be doing that etc...Yeah, exactly...
In essence his theory runs along the general lines of the existence of a "damping field" that requires conscious dismantling to be rid of it, in part because it serves other functions in nature essential to the balance of the ecosphere as a whole. This damping field is considered to be much stronger on-earth than it is off-earth and may also be linked to gravity itself in some way. In the language of *neuropolitics*, dismantling the damping field at will and with pinpoint accuracy is a key factor in linking human consciousness to its own universal neural network, presumed to be in place already.This is a very interesting viewpoint...so we would be naturally making a conscious dismantling attempt at that personal damping field, for alignment and reconfiguration to take place...I have very clearly perceived and experienced something very close to this...in particular with unlocking the direct application of telekinetics, so I can personally report gravity having a lot to do with this field-dismantling, among other things of course.
I think we have experienced various peaks in understanding but haven't really nailed it yet. I will have to agree with you on that, and this is where the subject of optimization really kicks in I think, as we can certainly say we are onto something here, but if it were truly and finally "It", I guess we would have known by now...breakthroughs and evolutionary re-evaluations are there, but the search for the rest of the formula pretty much goes on I think...

Kain

[m1thr0s]

It's important to realize a few things about how success itself is measured in this line of work you know. It's not always just about the end result which we may or may not finally be able to realize (I am certainly hopeful in this regard at least). If we compare the development of a successful magickal technology (for want of a better term) to the development of any other sufficiently complex technology...let's say a rocketship for instance...there are certain similarities we can observe. It is very often the case that right up to the very moment of launch, the best scientific minds available cannot be completely sure whether the thing is going to fly, or blow, or fizzle, or what...it's a complicated piece of machinery and the variables are overwhelming. So how do they know if they are even on track or not in that case?

They know because there are hundreds and thousands of sub-indicators constantly guiding them in their task. They run thousands of tests on every little part from the o-rings to the blasters and stack all these little successes together in anticipation of a great big success. Failure at any step in route will amount to failure of the project as a whole and they know it. It is because of this that when something does go wrong, they also have ways of determining what it was (in most cases) because there are specific pass-fail signatures involved for every little interactive piece of the puzzle.

So we do have ways of measuring the greater success of any technological enginery based upon its critical sub-indicators. We may not be able to be 100% certain of our end product until we've got a full-blown godman standing right before our eyes (where previously there was none) but we can turn to these sub-indicators to inform us of the progresses we have made and these are every whit as important, each in their turn, as the finished product itself.

It is a sometimes frustrating fact of life that the more closely a magickal technology approaches reality, the more difficult it can be to experience anticipated results. But we are not able to go backwards in time and assume the mental sets of those who came before us with any greater degree of success, or, if we do manage to do so somehow, that success is not really very relevant to the time we naturally inhabit. I have bemoaned the fact that Abramelin, for instance, was able to get compensated rather handsomely for his labors (at least according to him) since the *angels* allowed him recompense to the tune of 7 gold pieces per day! You know what I could do with 7 gold pieces per day and how much better it would profit the entire world? But it doesn't matter...it's irrelevant as hell. Today we are aiming at stars, not angels, and our pass-fail parameters more closely resemble higher mathematics than religious obeisancies or whatever.

m1thr0s

[Amur]

I happen to have been working with experts on the area of drugs for many years and can say that this is not a big world spread conspiracy against ascension through "wise" use of drugs , drugs do harm the body system and call it whatever you like but I have not been in their need to furhter neither my practice nor my self esteem...

"Deluded" is not a word that generally describes me M1thr0s and I agree that you do not know me enough to tell if this is true or not, however, I wouldnt go out use harsh expressions to anyone over a petty matter of different opinions...

Indeed it is sad to know that many of the so called 'experts' work only with one common aim, to research and investigate NEGATIVE effects of various drugs. There is no or little research for the positive effects regarding the various drugs. It's quite a hilarious situation. The same thing which has been going on for countless of millennias has changed form and is now aimed at the very bad bad drugs. Seems like humanity needs somekind of spacegoat to blame all their troubles for.

The so called 'experts' here in Finland have shown time and again and again to the public and in media and in all areas that they are a bunch of liars who believe in stories instead of scientific objectivity. Because of this effect the area is quite diffused. There are though some quite good research projects going on in liberal places like Switzerland(maps for example) (http://www.maps.org/), who are trying to objectivily map out both sides of the effects of drugs. Unfortunately these kind of projects are still in minor both in funding and in frequency when compared to the ones striving for a persecution of drugs overall. Largely all research was forbidden when the DEA made a decision to start raiding the scientists researching into this area, later on the substances were scheduled and few permissions have been granted to allow further research on them. Though this happened ~10-15 years ago so things might be looking a bit lighter nowadays.

Unfortunately I'd call 99% of the humans living here, deluded in one form or another so I wouldn't be very 'hurt' by such a term...

[m1thr0s]

yeah...if they aimed even 10% of that high-powered negativity at *approved* medications of all kinds we'd probably be lucky to be able to buy aspirin, since nearly all useful drugs have some kind of harmful side-effects, and many drugs that aren't even all that useful are even worse...yet they are not only available but shoved at us from all directions.

But all of this is getting away from our original topic. As pertains to the hallucinogens, I don't know that it's fair to say they are a great deal of help with concentration per se, though one can learn a great deal about concentration through their use. But I think their real virtue is more along the lines of demonstrating the reality of higher states of energy, which for many people is only an ambiguous sort of idea at best. There are paradoxes and distortions that have to be negotiated because drugs won't really put you at a higher place for very long, but they definitely demonstrate that you don't have to be some sort of advanced Yogi to experience higher levels of energy and all the sensory expansion that this implies. They open doors of *perception*, not necessarily doors of *completion* in themselves, but they serve to inform and motivate people in many useful ways. What you do with that added insight is another matter. How to follow up on these things is something that has to be worked out independantly for the mostpart, since they don't really answer these kinds of questions directly, but can nevertheless be very helpful when utilized in right proportion to other kinds of work.

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

Seipiriz, I'm curious, how can you know that one can re-create the state achieved during the use of certain drugs (such as hallucinogenic mushrooms for example) if you've never done them, and then attempted to reach the same state sober?

Everyone who has ever made that claim has never been able to show any kind of method of achieving the same states, and if you can, I'm genuinely curious as to how.

For the record, I have dealt with drug addiction in my immediate family my entire life, up to the level of heroin and crack. I can attest that not all drugs are the same or affect people in the same ways, and they certainly don't all destroy your brain.

I think technically anything be a drug, as everything is mind altering, but as far as established drugs, my own use spans alcohol, mushrooms, salvia D, weed, and tobacco, in descending order of frequency.

I can pretty much say that alcohol has never showed me much in the way of anything useful about the world, and is generally bad news. It has loosened a bit of emotional and psychological debris, but beyond that initial stirring, it's basically garbage. I don't see too many people who can use the drug to do something creative.

Hallucinogenic mushrooms have done nothing but teach me, unlock potential, and most of all, constantly and consistently humble me every time I think I'm something I am not. They can be a party drug like anything else, but I think that's a sad misuse of their potential.

Salvia D I've never had much happen with, and mostly just felt like I was in (for lack of better words) mario land.

Marijuana is another drug I think is misused as a party drug, and has a lot of potential people fail to see with it, typically by over-using it. I've only smoked three times myself, and each time learned a little something I didn't know before.

Tobacco.....well.....never did anything for me at all. I do enjoy the taste and smell of clove cigarettes and that's about it, though I don't smoke.

[Seipiriz]

Seipiriz, I'm curious, how can you know that one can re-create the state achieved during the use of certain drugs (such as hallucinogenic mushrooms for example) if you've never done them, and then attempted to reach the same state sober?



I have achieved the state descibed by many drugs through a rather difficult to describe series of concentrated thoughts during meditation ... I have witnessed hallucinations too when not taking my medication when I was a teenager and suffered from stress problems , needless to say meditation and esotericism work much better than drugs..

[m1thr0s]

stress related hallucinations are really quite different than what the hallucinogens tap into. They are a lot closer to delerients actually and tend to drudge up subconscious debris. The term "hallucinations" is nearly as loaded a term as "drugs". Most people who have been affected in a profound way by the use of such agents would tend to describe their experiences as "visions", not hallucinations. The term hallucination is often used in a derogatory way in the attempt to trivialize other people's personal experiences...

Technically any vision could be called a hallucination yet most of us would know the difference, if not at the time, then in retrospect in most cases... Many of the kinds of revelations people report are not visual at all but simply have to do with higher insight into things and these insights pretty much define their own value.

What works for you works for you and that's great. That doesn't make other people's successes any less than they are. Blanket generalities will do no one any good in this kind of discussion. Using one's own personal experiences as a measuring rod against which all other things are valued is a logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy) and amounts to a bubble that will burst one day. It's one thing to say something doesn't work for you (though even this may be in error). It's quite another to assert how things are for everyone else, or otherwise, in general...

m1thr0s

[DChapman]

The use of mind altering substances allowed me to progress with my meditation and relaxation much more quickly than if I had not used. Is the usage of such substances for everyone? No, certainly not. But there has been a mental, spiritual, and even a resulting physical benefit from my usage of drugs and yoga. I would not be anywhere near as far along with my practices if I had not.

[Austin Osman Spare]

I have found substances to be helpfull, especially in the creation of art, meditation and yoga. I realize now that certain times in my life where i was "abusing" substances were an attemot to satisfy or subdue energies within me that I was not capable of understanding. Are there other options? of course, but I didn't find them. I would wager that a good 90 percent of the worlds population would be much closer to the state of samadhi if they partook in a handfull of mushrooms and a ball of hash, because well , you can't feed steak to babies.
Poison , medicine. Same thing.

[Zaii]

I have achieved the state descibed by many drugs through a rather difficult to describe series of concentrated thoughts during meditation ... I have witnessed hallucinations too when not taking my medication when I was a teenager and suffered from stress problems , needless to say meditation and esotericism work much better than drugs..

I said, "...if you've never done them".

How can you replicate an experience you've never had? That's my question.

[fr.novumorganum]

i come to the discusion late, but i'm strongly in favor of the use of "the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo" in magick work.

besides that, drug use should be a personal choice, one each individual makes for themselves, not just because I am a Thelmite, but because having the power to determine one's own path is central to one's development.

i also think all such proscriptions and ascetic programs are blinds to keep those who have yet to solve what Reich calls the emotional plague in a holding pattern, but that is an opinion for another flame war.:cool:

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I can't associate drug use or chemognosis with meditation. Meditation as far as Im concerned is the attempt to still the mind, whether we are sitting down or moving in a kata. Drug use or Chemognosis on the other hand involves the stimulation of the imagination. Sure with some drugs we can drift off into a trancelike stupour or have a vision, but that is not meditation, unless we are using the old fashioned sense of the word, "to study".

[m1thr0s]

Meditation, for many, is a lot more than stilling the mind...but even then...there are different ways to go about achieving this and they don't all rely upon withdrawing consciousness from the physical.

"The stillness in stillness is not the real stillness"...Jeet Kun Do

It might be useful to examine the word itself more closely: meditation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation)

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Meditation, for many, is a lot more than stilling the mind...but even then...there are different ways to go about achieving this and they don't all rely upon withdrawing consciousness from the physical.

"The stillness in stillness is not the real stillness"...Jeet Kun Do

It might be useful to examine the word itself more closely: meditation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation)

m1thr0s

Ah fair enough. Thanks.

Meditation and Drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Meditation_and_drugs)

Sometimes being a polyglot has its disadvantages. I was thinking of myfyrio (http://www.geiriadur.net/atebion.php?PHPSESSID=99233dfd74006d00aef4f0ae9c29 b519&uni=y&prefLang=en&term=myfyrio&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=verb)
and forgetting synfyfyrio (http://www.geiriadur.net/atebion.php?PHPSESSID=99233dfd74006d00aef4f0ae9c29 b519&uni=y&prefLang=en&term=synfyfyrio&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=verb). Probably because Im a myfyriwr (http://www.geiriadur.net/atebion.php?prefLang=en) :o

[m1thr0s]

lol...

it's an interesting assertion coming from one who knows his way around a spell or two...

personally I think a lot of damage has occured to human spirituality in general by way of limiting the meaning of the term to such an extent as to provide little practical application in daily routines...so this supports the whole "division" between the spiritual and the physical that is an artificial division created by wordcrafters, spindoctors etc...not by nature itself.

reclaiming meditation as an activity, rather than an inactivity, is going to be one of our greatest challenges in conveying magickal or mystical philosophy to a broader base of people in the ahead.

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

personally I think a lot of damage has occured to human spirituality in general by way of limiting the meaning of the term to such an extent as to provide little practical application in daily routines...so this supports the whole "division" between the spiritual and the physical that is an artificial division created by wordcrafters, spindoctors etc...not by nature itself.

reclaiming meditation as an activity, rather than an inactivity, is going to be one of our greatest challenges in conveying magickal or mystical philosophy to a broader base of people in the ahead.

m1thr0s

True. There's been a lot of misappropiation of words in the English language and they all lead ultimately to confusion and misunderstanding.

As regards magic and drugs though, I might be tempted once in a blue moon to use cannabis to enhance visualisation and certain types of gnosis that are linked to the use of the imagination, but generally I find in my own experience that they are not the best tools when it comes to concentration. That and I usually ended up steaming drunk somewhere. Sometimes somewhere far far away from where I was actually living at the time. Or in the case of cannabis finding myself concentrating on something completely different to whatever my original planned object of focus was.

[m1thr0s]

there are unique challenges to the chemognostic path...I won't pretend that there are not. But these are actually navigateable if you throw your will into it.

I have only a limited knowledge of these things really but more than most. I used to do things like drop acid and play guitar all nite long as a form of "meditation". I played some pretty incredible shit during many of these sessions. I could reach a place where my hands were completely oblivious to friction and I could play on several harmonic levels at once, utilizing overtones and intonations very hard to exact from an acoustic guitar. i found the same thing to be true with Djembe (drumming) and other instruments I turned to.

Concentrated motion seems to be the real key to focusing higher consciousness through hallucinogens. Crystal scrying and things that involve repetitive motion are especially profitable. I discovered ways of setting my analytical mind on auto-pilot through repetitive analytical tasks that allowed higher parts of mind to seep through. All very difficult to explain without it sounding like I was locked into some sort of obsessive-compulsive behavior pattern...but I know the difference and that's not the deal at all. That's a stereotype and it mainly applies to people who have not really learned how to navigate these waters.

This is always a very hard thing to discuss because it really requires first-hand experience of a more successful kind to be able to relate to what I am trying to communicate here...like if you were trying to describe a lightning storm to somebody who had never seen one or even heard of one. They would probably think you quite insane. I know enough to know that many things are possible that are not ordinarily recognized as such...but I also know that there are special hazards to contend with. The mind is full of traps and things that can indeed create serious problems at times. You have to know that going in and be watching out for psychic sinkholes and such...

More than any other single thing I know of...hallucinogens can teach you that you make the rules when it comes to the mind. You can transform a nitemare into a great cosmic joke just by tweaking your perspective a little...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I can understand what you're saying, I have had my successes, especially with hallucinogens. Even when I took hallucinogens for recreational purposes (and that's taking me back some 12 years), I would always click into 'magus mode'. Ive certainly benefited from those experiences, but I haven't felt the need for that kind of thing for quite some time, and in many ways the insights I picked up while tripping are with me still.

I used to do things like drop acid and play guitar all nite long as a form of "meditation".
Wow. Ive often meditated through guitar playing, but not on acid (and not all night). The one time I remember trying (after taking a microdot) the visual distortion I experienced just made it impossible. My strumming hand was about the size of a slab of beef and the strings where all about a mile apart :D

[MythMath]

Paul Bunyan plucking
the
Golden Gate Bridge
like a
big, fat lyre

:p

[m1thr0s]

Garcia did his best work on Acid...in front of thousands of people, Hendrix, Santana, many others. You have to train it in but once the pathways are established you can get there over and over again very easily...

But I know what you mean...it can be difficult to sort this out at first. particularly when the guitar melts...lol

As regarding "necessity" I actually have split feelings about this. It's just a little too PC to say that such agents are not "necessary" to human spirituality and I am not comfortable with such "easy" assertions in general. I think it depends on what you are hoping to accomplish and also what your other options might be. The hallucinogens exist abundantly in nature and aside from being a rather unremarkable insect repellant in certain plants, it's not at all clear why they are there at all. Hallucinogenic mushrooms, in particular, are known to "stalk" human beings in the sense that they very often are especially drawn to conditions unique to human culture....garbage dumps, gravel roads and such. It's not so easy to dismiss the impact these things may have had on human beings in the entire evolutionary scheme of things. So while I would never climb up on some sort of pulpit regarding their use necessarily, I am also quite honestly not prepared to say they are not essential to certain kinds of progress. If we are talking about human beings going beyond themselves in some remarkable way, I am more inclined to think they may in fact be quite essential. Imagination in itself is just not quite enough to latch onto things beyond what you could have possibly imagined.

How else are we supposed to get to the kinds of sensory states we can get to just by eating a certain mushroom? Yoga? I don't see any evidence of this. Meditation? maybe, if you go at it non-stop for 100 years or so. Magick? Give me a break...you know? True...some people are already wired to higher states of energy to begin with...I accept that without complaint. But I'm not one of them, yet I can eat a couple of mescaline buttons and I'm off like a rocketship to places most of these "livewires" have never even seen. It's just a little too accessable to be so easily dismissed I think.

m1thr0s

[Zaii]

I've found that by and large the people who come down hard on hallucinogens are people who have had very little or no experience with them and are leaping to assumptions based on how they've seen other people using the drugs act (without any understanding of the perspective of the user), or they had one bad trip and thus assume that no one can hold their marbles together.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

As regarding "necessity" I actually have split feelings about this. It's just a little too PC to say that such agents are not "necessary" to human spirituality and I am not comfortable with such "easy" assertions in general.
Totally. If we start talking about what's truly "necessary" to spirituality we end up living in a loincloth in some cave eating berries and water, not talking to anyone and generally not having any fun.

I am also quite honestly not prepared to say they are not essential to certain kinds of progress. If we are talking about human beings going beyond themselves in some remarkable way, I am more inclined to think they may in fact be quite essential. Imagination in itself is just not quite enough to latch onto things beyond what you could have possibly imagined.
Good point. For my part I can't imagine being able to really get into magick without having experienced hallucinogens. Sure I was doing it before, but without the magical equivalent of depth-perception, if you get what I mean. It's no surprise they have been the means of initiation since ancient times.

I've found that by and large the people who come down hard on hallucinogens are people who have had very little or no experience with them and are leaping to assumptions based on how they've seen other people using the drugs act (without any understanding of the perspective of the user), or they had one bad trip and thus assume that no one can hold their marbles together.

Hehe, most the people Ive seen on a bad trip spent their 'hallucinogenic experience' with their heads down the toilet...

[Amur]

"The bigger the stash, the better the feeling" -Placebo alá amuria :laugh:

[m1thr0s]

It's no surprise they have been the means of initiation since ancient times.yes...initiation..that's the ticket. and that is also where people can miss the boat with these things. nobody ever promised anybody that hallucinogens were gonna complete your necessary tasks in life or somehow take you right to the throne of godhead and drop you off like a chemical taxi service...yet people sometimes seem to think this is the case.

and I don't think so at all...I think they are there to facilitate opening the channels that need to be opened but they can't actually walk you through the gate in any permanent sort of way. They don't replace will and they absolutely never finish what they started of their own accord.

If you know that...you can kick back, enjoy the ride, and gather what things you may need to build a life worth living, basically...they're not going to do that for you but in a way...that's what's so damn cool about the whole thing...

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Ok, way late to the party, but I just wanted to toss this tidbit in. If you are worried about brain cell loss/damage - more recent research has found that physical exercise, especially things like weight-lifting, actually contribute to the regeneration and growth of brain cells, and at rates much higher than what was thought possible.

Some links:

Exercise Ups Brain Power (http://www.acefitness.org/fitfacts/fitbits_display.aspx?itemid=316)

Neurogenesis: Regeneration of Brain Cells (http://www.anti-ageing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=1&limit=1&limitstart=5&lang=en)

Exercise Your Mind
Don’t Believe the Myths: Getting Older Doesn’t Have to Mean Becoming Forgetful (http://www.nih.gov/news/WordonHealth/oct99/story02.htm)

New studies indicate that regular exercise may protect against Parkinson's disease or reverse some of the devastating consequences of traumatic brain injury. (http://www.sfn.org/index.cfm?pagename=news_101706f)

[erazimus]

There is no doubt certain drugs broaden the mind and enable transandental activity if channeled correctly with the correct focus and always to remain humble on the approach.

[Naomi]

I've met many people who have opened their minds to higher realms using plant people.

I'm super sensitive to drugs...alcohol makes me depressed and crazy, I took a prozac pill once and was homicidal, I was taking codeine after surgery and vividly saw the marks on the space time continuum around me vividly repeating themselves. AAAH!

Marijuana give me a migraine, cigarette smoke makes my lungs ache for days. Genetics, mutation is an option but I don't really know what I'm doing half the time with that so I've kind of left myself alone.

People think I'm a druggie though, because I'm so far out and relaxed and calm irl. Or they just notice I am really young looking, whether talking down to me like i just graduated highschool or being surprised I have two kids and am pushing 30. It's cool actually, kind of a nod from the other humans that I'm not one of them really, so I know my work is doing positive things for me.

I think m1thr0s is cool and I'm glad he does drugs because he has some interesting experiences and brings back interesting goodies for us to look at, right?

In Greece a long time ago I lived by the ocean, there was a cave that is now underwater, the people in there were a cult of sorts, dedicated to the research of nde's, we smoked some really dangerous herbs to die and come back and report what we had seen...dark stuff. I think it gave me very useful knowledge and experience.

No one is judged the same by the sword of Ma'at, we are all on unique paths and in the future perhaps we will be in each other's shoes too, so best to try to understand each other's modus...

[fr.novumorganum]

. It's cool actually, kind of a nod from the other humans that I'm not one of them really, so I know my work is doing positive things for me.



:sunny::tyes:

[m1thr0s]

one has to recognize one's own abilities as well as limitations or we might as well all be a bunch of copy-machines...

there have been many times I wished I were a little less thick in certain areas but I have learned that this is offset by supersensitivity in others so it all works out...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Welll....I don't think you realize how thick I am when I look at the stuff in the Abrahadabra folder.

I literally have 12 inches worth of favorited "Abrahadabra research help links" i think you guys must think I am giving you a hard time when I ask really dumb questions but I am actually serious....haha.

Kinda embarassing....

But it's cool though, because we're all learning to function as sort of part of a cohesive whole...

and we're all parts of cthulu...and we're the organs...or maybe like, glands

I think I would like to be the liver...

[m1thr0s]

I literally have 12 inches worth of favorited "Abrahadabra research help links" i think you guys must think I am giving you a hard time when I ask really dumb questions but I am actually serious....haha.

Kinda embarassing....well I am sort of sorry to hear it's that complicated Naomi since you are one of the brighter people I have run into online I think. It's a very difficult subject matter to know how to make entirely clear. On the one hand, I have extremely good news to report regarding Abrahadabra...that it is in fact a great deal more comprehensive as well as comprehendable that previously reported. On the other hand we are delving into a lot of stellar territory and I am attempting to communicate complex technical matters without the advance protocol of a book of any kind for people to go over at their leisure...all in all you're probably doing a hell of a lot better than you realize...

So just keep asking your stupid questions since there isn't anything stupid about them anyway...it's as difficult to know how to explain some things as it is to know how to understand them. But the explanations are there...none of this stuff is rooted in ambiguity or sacrosanct dogma of any kind...

And you are right. We are all learning to operate as a cohesive whole...me no less than anyone else.

m1thr0s

[Copuldaemon]

"As a new Tantra practicioner and a novice in the fine art of meditation methods, I would like to set a question...

Do you thing that drugs help oneself, as a way of achieving a deeper concentration and if the answer is "yes", how do you cope with the negative results for the body system such as addiction and destruction of brain cells ???"-

Me personally, I guess I would give a typical answer to such a question but I'll try not to.
I'm no novice when it comes to substance intake brain enhancement. But I can not say from my experience that when I was "high" that I lusted for concentration over the pleasure of the drug. The only time I was concentrating on anything was when I partied out my body and covered in piss and puke trying to pray to what inner gods of intoxication there were to save me on this side for another day, lol-no seriously.
With that being said, concerning dead brain cells, I believe that one time I saw a documentary nearly 20 years ago about cigarette smoke killing billions of brain cells which led me to ask, "how many brain cells do we actually have?"

Unfortunately I have learned the ways of the burnt monk having to relearn simple things like A,B,C's and 1, 2, 3's but my overall opinion on drug use is that eventually drugs break down your physical and psychic immune systems and once it penetrates your core essence is when you're in real trouble.

I also think that a person's level of addiction is dependant on how bad a person's life actually sucks for it's not just a case of appreciating the finer things in life if you have them but if you enjoy such things or if such things bring you joy to the point where you can just wipe off a wild and crazy night or are attempting to repeat the 'experiment' again.

[Copuldaemon]

Another thing that had hit me about this subject is that drugs aren't good for certain people (even if they know this and yet still do them) because they're super sensative than the average person for reasons concerning their unique abilities.
This sucks because one can't join the herd at the hemp camp and smoke themselves to nirvana but with great power (or power at all) comes great responsibility-right?.

[Amur]

When I smoke my aura somehow gets extended and I feel everyone inside that aura. Usually I get their demons and other malicious spirits inside me and have to deal with them in someway. Made the mistake of smoking a few times while out in the city or a nightclub, which made it quite horrible.

In nature I believe that it would be quite beneficial! :)