View Full Version : Celibacy
Most if not all half-decent spiritual traditions absolutely necessitate celibacy for males. (or learn how to have orgasmic sex without ejaculation, which is a powerful practice.)
The taoists see the semen as manifest Jing. Jing is important for spiritual advancement because it is used as a source of energy. (it is oft reported that it is the jing itself that is ultimately responsible for kundalini awakening.)
What is your take on the subject?
m1thr0s
09-09-2006, 12:28 AM
If the Jing fits wear it? Sorry...couldn't resist.
I don't believe in sacred cows in general of any kind. The only thing that really matters is being attuned to your own inner sanctum. Sometimes this may necessitate withdrawing from the world in various ways...other times the reverse might be the case. The only rule worth anything is the one that isn't written...
and that's just me...I don't expect it's quite the same for all necessarily.
m1thr0s
There have definitely been times in my life where staying away from women was the smart thing to do, but I do think that the repression of sexual urges is just as much a mockery of humanity as the exploitation of them we face in this culture.
Maybe it works for some, but given the widespread sexual scandals that turn up in practically every "spiritual" organization, well, ya know.
I actually read a (sketchy) daoist text once that recommended pressing the base of your penis at ejaculation, retaining the semen so as to "recirculate" the energy. Well, if you're lucky, that'll just filter out through your kidneys (if someone has a better knowledge of anatomy, do correct me if I'm wrong here), and if you're not, that sounds like it could cause some problems.
I agree with a large portion of daoist philosophy, but when you enter into all the longevity practices and like, I don't know, it's a mixed bag for me.
Well, I know what practices you're talking about, and I guess I agree. the repressed semen will just go into the bladder, I believe...
But when I said 'orgasmic sex without ejaculation', this is not what I meant. (if that changes anything...)
(You can learn to bring the orgasmic energy up and into your body. With practice you can learn to feel the orgasm in your chest, hardly aware that there is any genital stimulation at all. This is probably the most powerful practice I have encountered.)
What about the important role Jing plays in regards to taoist alchemy? (not secret of the golden flower alchemy, but kung-fu sort of alchemy?)
This is a quite important subject, although it has suffered a lot of misconception over the centuries...much like most very important subjects come to think of it. I certainly can't speak for anyone else, although withdrawal from sexual intercourse is something that I have very often found absolutely necessary for my personal energy levels to develop in the subtlety and potency required for my energy work to be satisfactory. It is important to note that sexual *withdrawal* is a practice that must never be connected with repression of the sexual drive. The two are distinctly different, yet it is so common to see the two considered as the same. No desire should actively be repressed or denied, as locking things in the proverbial closet of the personality has proven time and again to be the worst strategy imaginable in endeavors of greater Self-Integration and Realization...From a God Denied is a Demon Born as we well know, and sexual drive is no different in this respect.
Sexual withdrawal can only be successfully practiced if the desire for sexual intercourse is in itself sufficiently internally accepted for what it is, it's intensity having naturally reached a relatively low level. It simply cannot be practiced if one's sexual drive is high and desire potent and intense, not because of a person's supposed "impurity" as this is purely bullshit in my view, but because repressing aspects of the Self is simply not the way to go in re-integrational work. Thus, Celibacy presupposes a low sexual drive in the first place in order to be constructive as a practice, something that is almost never properly expressed. Supposing that a person already has naturally developped a relatively low sexual drive, sexual withdrawal can be very productive in my experience.
Maybe it works for some, but given the widespread sexual scandals that turn up in practically every "spiritual" organization, well, ya know.Very good point Zaii...and that's exactly why I feel it is important to make the distinction between repression and conscious withdrawal....
Now, excess semen produced in the genitals has indeed a bad influence on the organism, repressed semen even more. What the Tantric practice of Celibacy describes is a cessation (or at least, substantial decrease) of the body's amount of produced semen. Semen is considered an especially important substance and through this conscious cessation (brought about by energy work on the body's centers and of course a general conscious commitment made by the practitioner that affects his whole body's functions) the semen is allowed to initiate a process of essence-redefinition that will allow it to be eventually re-expressed (and fully realized) in full glory in it's subtle form, as pure creative energy. So, at some instances, it has been described that the process of Kundalini awakening is, in a way, the process of redefining and realizing the semen in a higher and more creatively-potent form. By adopting this practice, I have personally verified this tendency of the body to produce a lot less semen. Very interesting and equally potent energy surges seemed to actively redefine functions of that area of the body on both physical and subtle levels, and I must admit that later sexual interractions I have had showed a substantial change in the operation of the said function. In fact, the results were so interesting that they urged me on to further and more complete sexual withdrawal...
Finally, it is said that after the re-integration (and higher realization) process is sufficiently in motion, the practitioner may consciously re-initiate physical semen synthesization on demand, so this technique does not sever or incapacitate the practitioner's body in any way, but simply makes a temporary decision of altering the distribution of system resources for optimal results.
It is important to be specified that Celibacy is not necessary in any way for the attainment of such spiritual goals to take place. It provides a very powerful aid to the process for those that have no problem to employ it though, and combined with certain practices (such as Kundalini, for instance) it makes things very interesting.
But when I said 'orgasmic sex without ejaculation', this is not what I meant. (if that changes anything...)
(You can learn to bring the orgasmic energy up and into your body. With practice you can learn to feel the orgasm in your chest, hardly aware that there is any genital stimulation at all. This is probably the most powerful practice I have encountered.)I have not gone very far to that respect personally, although from the little experimentation I have made I must say that the practice of orgasmic sex without ejaculation is exceptionally potent as well, and works in parallel with the conscious decrease of semen's synthesization that I previously described.
Now, your second statememnt is especially interesting. Having worked extensively and for a lot of years with the Kundalini force, perhaps the most concise description I can give when people ask me about it's ascent is "an orgasm-inducing energy current ascending the spine and literally filling the whole body". A full body orgasm-like flow that lasts and is induced at will. This is the most powerful practice I have ever encountered, and has become the basis and energy generator for any other practice I may engage in. I have also worked extensively with such sensations like the one you describe (orgasm-like sensations in any part of the body) and it is a truly remarcable energy manipulation occurance...neuromancy and nadi-management at it's best...hehe...
Kain
What about the important role Jing plays in regards to taoist alchemy? (not secret of the golden flower alchemy, but kung-fu sort of alchemy?)
Kung fu directly translated means "hard work", and the "kung fu" of hairdressing can be great in a person, for example.
What specifically are you talking about?
the secret of the golden flower can be considered alchemical in nature.. But I would consider it passive, meditative.
the 'kung-fu' sort of alchemy I refer to is more like mantak chia kind of stuff.. iron shirt, nei gung, ....these kinds of things. These practices require, as you say, alot of 'hard work' ;)
I guess that was just a term I made up on the fly. =p (kung-fu alchemy, lol)
FFS! :D
If you go to celibacy be sure to keep the sexual energy channel open, or else things will start to go into a repressioned state where one has blocked something which might blow up in ones face. Meditating on the source of the sexual energy and moving it around the body, relaxing the body will be very good when practicing celibacy. If one hasn't found the sexual energy itself, one can also masturbate or do some other thing which keeps the sexual thing flowing.
The funny thing with celibacy is that women seem to go crazy around me when I've gone 2 weeks without whacking off. They literally go crazy and only see me through their super-sexified lens. Playing around with the sexual energy a bit more and they go even more wild. It's quite absurd lol. Women of all ages. Even grownups with children and a family seem to react in this way. (Might be a reason why it might be good to turn the sexual energy into something dry and non-attractive).
Celibacy in itself for me seems to trigger the kundalini into something far more powerful which in turn creates a pressure or tension which tenses the whole body. Releasing the sexual-pressure with ejaculation can be very good to decrease the kundalini pressure.
Perhaps I'm just repeating what Kain said in another perspective...
Anyway, looking at about how the Christianity and other fuck-ups have done to humanity, one could almost say that humanity has forgotten about true sexuality in itself and degraded themselves into the more primal energy of sex. Which can be the reason why the world is so super-sexified right now, as ppl are trying to get back in touch with the sexual energy. It's just that it can't be reached so easily unless the 'taboo' crap is removed from sex and sexuality itself. Perhaps we will soon ascend to the plateau Egyptians were at before some idiotic God went crazy. Sorry, rambling again. Repressed things tend to blow up in weird kind of spectackles.
You make some very valid points Amur. By the way, you know, I only noticed this fairly recently but women do seem to behave that way around me too when undergoing a period of Celibacy, and quite opposed to my intentions as well! It's not like I provoke that sort of interaction or anything, and yet it is always higher than ever...
Also, I think the point you make about most people being quite far from realizing the essence of sexuality, most commonly perceiving only lowly and surface impressions of it, is quite important I think. I also agree that the whole notion of "taboo" has a lot to do with this alienation, and that only by returning to that state of self-honesty and acceptance can we properly integrate that aspect of ourselves in our greater inner whole. There is a lot that can go wrong by repressing or misdirecting an aspect of ourselves so powerful and integral as sexuality, and I think we can all see ample examples of such misuse...
Kain
Austin Osman Spare
09-13-2006, 01:21 AM
Kain and Amur make very good points. I must also point out the advantages of sacrificing " some pure children" for magickal use. I myself find that my state of being after ejacualation is highly succeptable to magickal\symbolic suggestion, a state of pure "emptyness" where the seeds of manifestation can be placed unhindered.
I should point out that a female practitioner may have different thoughts, the druidic philosophy of sexual circuitry advocates that the loss of virginity was a neccesity for the initiations of female practitioners in the avalonian motherhood, while the druids were taught celibacy; ovyyds and bards could take a wife, while higher ranking druids would not. they advocated that women absorb sexual energy ad infinim, while men build it up, and have a limited amount. But there are occasions that warrant the "tank to be emptied" i would say.
Well, quoting Hatha Yoga celibacy is not about repressing but about economizing energy to work with...if u just dont ejaculate then the energy will flow out through your weak spots (exactly what u don't want to happen...)
so if u do celibacy u should also work with the energy you're keeping so it can flow where it is really needed.
Oroc
Marcus_
10-28-2006, 06:07 PM
What's your personal stance on the issue?
I love to feed my immaterial friends, so I'm definitely not celibate, but if the emergy goes out weakpoints, it'd be a good chance to spot & then balance out one's issues. Hmm.
Anibis
10-30-2006, 06:26 AM
Well, Hermeticism might be understood as the 'plugging of holes' (not in the porno-party sense necessarily), as in the phrase "hermetically sealed". It basically means that a hermeticist will operated within a closed energy matrix: All bases are covered, all gaps are 'sealed'. Although the Tree of Life is such an energy matrix, not all versions are airtight so to speak. The I ching and the THC are airtight, the Tzolkin is airtight, and generally speaking energy investments that are grounded in 'magic squares' are airtight. If you are familiar with the notions of 'soundness and completeness' as they are discussed in relation to formal languages such as various logics: Soundness means that a system can only prove that which derive from it's axioms (starting assumptions) and completeness means that all possible derivations may be eventually proven. A sound and complete system is called an axiomatized system. Liken this to a well sealed boat, or container. With such a thing in place, magickally speaking, you stand a much better chance of retaining your mystical fluids, so to speak...
-Ibisis-
P.S. now you know why 'Mason' jars are Hermetically sealed!
Awesome post Ibisis. Perhaps a point equally important to "Soundness and Completeness" that I think is worthy to point out for an axiomatized system is the self-redefinitive principle, usually found in the principle of the Primordial Void. In a way, through consciously pinpointing this co-ordinate, one officially sets the point of contact the system has with what lies outside and above it, which is then processed and properly "classified" in the system below. It also defines the borderline where one's Inner Universe and Order ends and the unsorted/unknown begins. Oftentimes, this little detail makes the whole difference between stagnation and systematic conscious expansion in such a system, as it sets a "path of conquest" for the currently consciously conceived balances to exponentially expand themselves.
Kain
Anibis
10-30-2006, 12:55 PM
Oh, man. You SAID it. Absolutely. While a sound and complete system IS a requirement, that system is embedded within, composed of, and engaged in exploring/evolving into the unknown. It's not a matter of opposing structure/being to the void at all, but of perfecting it, and pressing it up 'against the countours of the real' (to sound Bergsonian), such that the Mystery/Void acts like a fountainhead which continually refreshes the system. Who was it who said 'God is Pressure'?
-Ibisis-
Also interesting: Michel Serres, in discussing systems, proposes a neologism in contrast to 'Homeostasis (a complex system returning to the same state), which is 'Homeorrhesis', which is a complex system which returns to the same flow. The river is eternal, but the river's bed changes its constitution over time...
Anibis
10-30-2006, 12:57 PM
A Slogan:
"Overflow the System!"
heh heh heh
-Ibisis
Marcus_
10-30-2006, 04:24 PM
I think that homeostasis is most balanced in bodies which have some sort of sex semi-regularily. What do you think about it?
Oh, man. You SAID it. Absolutely. While a sound and complete system IS a requirement, that system is embedded within, composed of, and engaged in exploring/evolving into the unknown. It's not a matter of opposing structure/being to the void at all, but of perfecting it, and pressing it up 'against the countours of the real' (to sound Bergsonian), such that the Mystery/Void acts like a fountainhead which continually refreshes the system. Who was it who said 'God is Pressure'?Exactly ;)
Also interesting: Michel Serres, in discussing systems, proposes a neologism in contrast to 'Homeostasis (a complex system returning to the same state), which is 'Homeorrhesis', which is a complex system which returns to the same flow. The river is eternal, but the river's bed changes its constitution over time...That's very interesting actually...
A Slogan:
"Overflow the System!"
heh heh hehAbsolutely Ibisis...hehe...
Kain
I must conclude that the pressure exists as one is different in relation to the enviroment. Without somekind of natural pressure, there wouldn't be that much gain. In a similar way birds fly and play with the pressure of the wind, or salmons play with the stream of the water. If humans were natural and in their own natural capacity, the pressure wouldn't be similar to what it is now.
If I'm strong, I'm also very flexible and maneuverable, which means that the pressure becomes easier to handle in that kind of context. Now-a-days I do believe that things are messed up because the Morphogenic Fields are somehow off-balance. For me many things are trying to get me to become Christ just because there isn't 'another' category top put me in which would define who I am and what I came here to accomplish.
Celibacy, for myself, which hasn't yet begun completely, seems to be a major factor in recovering from this illness and seems also to be a natural, down-to-earth healing mechanism. Again, I don't find it surprising that the earth-energies are blocked up for people and very much lacking atleast in this capital city. For another very strange reason, it is almost like this capital city has pressure from the EU-organ and directly a pressure of idiocy from both EU and USA.
As a second notice, I do believe in harmonized cities, where the inhabitants are connected to earth, estetically, spiritually and physically.
Okazaki Castle
11-05-2006, 06:16 AM
If one views onself as All-That-Is how then is energy to flow out of you? How then is energy to flow into you?
The advanatage of such a perspective is that you can ejaculate lots. You can allow energy to replenish itself by cycling meridians round on cycles, passing them thru the wider celestial spheres. What of questions of 'pollution'? Or of drainage from your own physical fleshy form to other physical fleshy forms? Well, set up a system of shields, or grids, around your own physical form that purifies what comes into your own circle of inlfuence, ie near you physically. m1thr0s's grids are good to copy there, if he doesn't mind, or if you are ethically unscurpulous or take a different view of property or w/e. Or you could do standard psychic self-defence 'bubbles', empowering them with a purification quality. It's all just mind turning really, so it's a question of how you set up your systems and concepts...
Trouble with having grids running round you that pre-refine people's energetic structures before they come into your physical presence is that it takes peopel time to work thru them, which means the new partners you meet prbbly will cut down for a while. That in turn will prbbly make you a bit of a w*nker...
all da best,
Seb.
Anibis
11-05-2006, 06:52 AM
Well, what you say, OC, shows quite an astute familiarity with 'fields' as such. I won't comment on your post cuz it stands alone, but I will offer a technology that I have use which serves to filter energy in and out of my sphere. I haven't brought this up here yet, so I guess I will now. intead of an impenetrable barrier, I tend to use the Labyrinthine approach. It still means that people will need to work through it, in order to see you for real, but it has the advantage of admitting those true to their energy and confounding those who have imballanced systems. It can by nicely protective. Here is my own adaptation of the 11 circuit 'Chartes' Labyrinth found in the floor of the Cathedral in the French town of the same name.
http://Ibisis.zoints.com/image/37416-Labyrinth
The 11 circuits make it resonate very well with both the Tarot and Abrahadabra. Think of it as an onionskin of 11 layers. Including the outside and the heart, there are 13 component 'regions'. Anyways, it makes a good 'circulation system'.
-Ibisis
I can't say for sure that my sources are correct but in ancient egypt I do believe that they didn't have the tantric concept for energy deplation from ejaculation. I do also believe that there are ways (Drunvalo Melchizedek for one), to recycle the sexual energy and the sexual energy burst that comes at the peak of orgasm. This recycling will make the body younger, and makes one certainly more beautiful as the skin becomes it's correct hue and so on.
Though I did have an experience where the kundalini-circuit was fully active and aroused. Whereas I ejaculated and the pressure in the bottom went away and my brain-hemispheres descended again into insanity. But if the K-circuit truly functions like this, then I believe that it's not meant for human beings to function sexually like many now do. But then again, I also think that the brain-hemispheres should be in harmony with each other instead of fighting of which view is correct when they are both viewing the same thing from different perspectives. In the end the whole dualism thing can be traced back into the dualism of the brainhalves.
A good thing with tantric sexual practices is that when practicing non-ejaculation, one becomes in tune with not having to ejaculate, which in turn leads to the thing that one lasts much longer before ejaculating. It will also lead to the point where one can orgasm without having to ejaculate at all. Though we all know what happens when one goes for too long without ejaculating. Atleast for me the mind gets too tensed up along with emotions.
I do believe that sexuality is one of the most controlled things on this planet. I wonder also why Earth itself resonates much closer to sexual-relaxed attitude instead of this God-whacking-You-Are-Not-Worthy kind of concept. From the dualism of this I rather choose Earth :laugh:
I must also point out the advantages of sacrificing " some pure children" for magickal use. I myself find that my state of being after ejacualation is highly succeptable to magickalsymbolic suggestion, a state of pure "emptyness" where the seeds of manifestation can be placed unhindered.
I have a friend - and it really is a friend and not I :p - that performed a ritual where he ejaculated in a bowl of water that he was using in some form of Nostradamus/Levi ritual of his own invention. The conclusion of the ritual was the drinking of the water and all that it contained.
:cool:
m1thr0s
03-12-2008, 11:06 PM
bon apetit...I don't know, whatever bakes your goose I guess. The ordinary alchemical formula for that type of operation would be semen + blood, not semen + water. I'm sure there must be half a dozen or so hookers out there that would be happy to congratulate him on his first-ever magickal blowjob... :eek:
Do people just plain not understand what time it is? I guess not.
m1
it's ammit's dinner time!!
nom nom nom
hehehehehehhe
Xirru-Eno
09-13-2008, 09:00 AM
I've not really looked at any of the texts in Daoism that talk about celibacy yet.
I believe that women pick up on your negative force that subconsciously you are not meaning to attract them, and for some reason this attracts them. It's not just when I'm being celibate that this happens but also when I have a girlfriend who I'm serious about. It's the famous "why don't girls ever like me, then I get a girlfriend and everyone likes me all of a sudden!?" that I'm sure most teenage boys have asked.
Celibacy for me causes a kind of sensitivity to the time of the day, and I find myself becoming rapidly more aroused by my own thoughts as it comes to early morning, granted I'm not sleeping that night. This is also when the less socially acceptable fantasy ideas make their way into my mind. I believe for this reason that for you to take up celibacy for spiritual gain you must first have a healthy sleeping pattern, very strong will and a clear mind.
I'd suggest going to a reserve where there is none of the gender you desire, all men or all woman's group if you're gay.
On a separate note I have recently come to know, accept and understand sex. It is a very powerful energy, with almost a tally like effect on your future.
Let's say you have sex with 200 women in a year, and the following year you fall in love with a girl who has respect for her body and has tried to reserve her sexual activity, not necessarily religious but maybe she understands that it is the basic and most primal access to the greatest gift a bare human and give to another bare human. (bare = human with no possessions, land, money, etc.). So our girl truly believes in the gift of sex, she understands it and values it. To her this is a gift that is the best gift you can give, it is the gold medal, the peak of the mountain. She may very easily find that what he does for her feels only like bronze, the first step up the mountain and a simple bit of change instead of a gift.
The amount something valuable is used, or shared can decrease it's value and for those who want to fall in love with a woman or man who consider sex with you as something unique and something new to experience. It will be challenging for anyone who respects you enough to not want you to do that.
If someone can name me a greater gift a bare human can give to another bare human, that results in such an exquisit emotion and energy then please tell me.
Like that song from juniors.
Xirru
P.S. This is only one of my many heads talking.
Taiji Bum
09-13-2008, 04:17 PM
I've not really looked at any of the texts in Daoism that talk about celibacy yet.
I believe that women pick up on your negative force that subconsciously you are not meaning to attract them, and for some reason this attracts them. It's not just when I'm being celibate that this happens but also when I have a girlfriend who I'm serious about. It's the famous "why don't girls ever like me, then I get a girlfriend and everyone likes me all of a sudden!?" that I'm sure most teenage boys have asked.
It's not just teenage boys that ask that but 41 year old men too.
Xirru-Eno
09-14-2008, 02:57 AM
It's not just teenage boys that ask that but 41 year old men too.
Wow. I'm not 41, so I wouldn't know that yet.
I believe that women pick up on your negative force that subconsciously you are not meaning to attract them, and for some reason this attracts them..
This goes for men too...
When we have what we want we are more confident. Confidence is very attractive. We (men and women) look for people with confidence because it harkens back to our basic needs for survival. Strong people are more equipped than weak ones.
Also humans have a problem with desire. We always desire that which we can't have, and if we still manage to get what we can't get, we feel extra rewarded. It is a great rush/thrill!
Perhaps why crime is so attractive?!
Buddha wasn't out on a limb...
All suffering is caused by human desire, particularly the desire that impermanent things be permanent. - Buddha
What is evil? Killing is evil, lying is evil, slandering is evil, abuse is evil, gossip is evil: envy is evil, hatred is evil, to cling to false doctrine is evil; all these things are evil. And what is the root of evil? Desire is the root of evil, illusion is the root of evil. - Buddha
Although the concept of evil can of course be debated, but that is another topic some which can be found here (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/forumdisplay.php?f=148).
:cool:
Ritual_Kiss
09-14-2008, 09:01 AM
I'd like to present my own opinion on the matter, though this discussion seems to be aimed more at the gentlemen. Also, I'm not as educated on the subject as you guys, so please tell me if you feel I'm imposing on this one.
I'm glad that a distinction was made between sexual repression and withdrawl. I'd like to learn a bit more about willful withdrawal in a healthy manner, but I
wanted to touch briefly on repression.
I have found that repression isn't exclusive to not having sex, or not getting it. You can be having a lot of it and still be repressed, mainly when there is imbalance and your energies are not flowing properly with another person, or with yourself. While this seems like a no brainer, I think the extent of this repression is underestimated. A perfect example of this from the female side of things is the woman's orgasm, which along with the intense feeling is like having a pitcher of water spill out of you. This is said to be a myth, and I only had my first this year, and then it became easier. It involved concentration on breath, and allowing the sexual flow of energy to rise fully uninterupted. It was
a very healthy and balancing release. My first question upon realizing what happened is "why didn't I know about this?" and "why did nobody tell me?"
Male sexuality is generally accepted as intense and ever present, while
female sexuality is treated as something that's not really supposed to happen. The scientifically recognised reality is that woman are just as horny as men.
Knowing this, it's no surprise that so many woman are acting as "sluts" trying to get it wherever they can. They are desperate to fulfill their nature and release where it has been robbed from them. I will go so far to say that the population will recede, deseases will become less rampant, and there will be a better balance when sexual repression stops.
Male sexuality is generally accepted as intense and ever present, while female sexuality is treated as something that's not really supposed to happen. The scientifically recognised reality is that woman are just as horny as men.
A very important point. For a long time women weren't even allowed, or even believed to be able, to have an orgasm.
:cool:
Xirru-Eno
09-16-2008, 04:24 AM
Before this becomes a Sexist discussion, I'd like to say that women have played an important part in life, probably even more so than men. Shiva, Maha Kali, Mother of Creation, Mother Earth, Venus, Arianrhod, Brighid, Rhiannon, Morrigan, Crobh Dearg, Isis, Bastet, Hathor, Neith, Nephtys...
The sexuality of women is accepted as 'open for use' by the majority of males who grew up near red light districts and around a general high population of females. You found that women were generally open for use, as with everything you have positive and negatives and I believe sexually women are considered negative, they're the recievers kind of thing. Also I think men make a big deal out of women's bodies in quite a spiritual way, which sucks for females I guess.
I feel somewhat hurt, somehow, when I hear about a woman who's had sex with 7 men in a week. I don't understand why, and probably never will. I think that some men have lost that feeling of hurt when a woman 'gives herself out like that'. It's almost like being disillusioned from valuing women. Like we shouldn't value women, and if we do we're stupid because they don't value themselves. Men are like the children of the world, and women I feel as a collective now want that experience aswell.
------------------------------------------------
Also I think that men, when they fall in love consider women like absolute rarities. Like living holy statues that emit divine love, like the women who loves them was totally designed for them. So when that's the case, the idea of them being willfully defiled (even in the woman's history) isn't nice at all.
Wondering if women feel the same about men.
Xirru.
Ritual_Kiss
09-16-2008, 07:32 AM
You're right, this is going a bit off topic, so we might need to take it somewhere else soon.
As a woman, I look at men like people, with flaws and skills, with a family, with goals, and conflicts to overcome. they to me, are never really this shining angle vs. a horrid devil. The problem with putting someone up on a pedestal is that it's just as bad as dragging them in the mud. The pedestal is not sufficient to function on, and there is no room to move around. It's an unnatural place to be, and when you try to move around, and fall, it's easier to get hurt.
You make a good point about some men perceiving woman as open for business, and the perception of her "giving herself out." The key here, is that in cases like these the woman's sexuality is perceived to belong to the community, and not something that is rightfully hers. It's no longer a basic human need, but rather her sexuality becomes an object that is surrendered. I agree that 7 men a week is excessive and unhealthy, and it's unhealthy when it's with someone you don't trust or care about. However, I think this is often a social byproduct of negative philosophies about a woman's bodies being controlled by the group. Respect is determined more by her sex than by other aspects of her personhood.
I think what I'm trying to say here, is that when a woman has sex with a man, she's not giving him something, she's doing something with him. She's participating in something. A man isn't doing something to her, but with her...and it's far better when it's a dual effort. ;)
Talkingfox
09-16-2008, 08:19 AM
Very well spoken RK.
Very well spoken indeed.
Ritual_Kiss
09-16-2008, 03:54 PM
Thank you!
m1thr0s
09-17-2008, 04:09 PM
Before this becomes a Sexist discussion, I'd like to say that women have played an important part in life, probably even more so than men.I know what you mean...hell...some of my best friends are women...I even have a cousin who married one! :cool:
Sorry Xirru...that may be playing unfairly but it's really hard to know how to let somebody know that they are dealing in stereotypes - even on an unconscious level, which is actually where these things do the worst damage...
It may just be your age or your upbringing or some combination of things, but even though I very much doubt you are consciously aware of it and I am quite certain you don't mean things to come out that way...still...they are coming out that way...
Let's pretend for a moment that were true...what happens next (assuming you wanted to change it)? Talking is good, like you are doing right now, though talking with an open mind is not something people always do instinctively well. Moreover I think you just need to keep your eyes peeled and your ears open. We all of us have various blind spots we still need to sort out.
edit: I wanted to add that studying yin-yang philosophy helped me a lot sorting out the whole male-female thing...sometimes we really need to get outside our cultural imprints to see things clearly. I even learned a clever little trick from some good eastern writer about all of this, since westerners tend to make the mistake of mis-translating yin-yang philosophy as a duality. Yin and Yang are more properly a unified polarity...they are exactly equal in all things yet different in certain key respects. They are only *opposites* in a kind of stop-action filming, whereas in real life they constantly merge into and out of each other, yin carrying the seed of yang and yang carrying the seed of yin within themselves respectively. This is not true within a proper dualism, so yin and yang are not a *duality*. Neither are males & females.
m1
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