View Full Version : Ningishzidda: The First Satan?
m1thr0s
09-10-2006, 01:13 AM
Disclaimer: This is a very old thread citing facts that are in some instances false or only partially correct.
Readers are advised to do their own follow-up research with respect to Ningishzidda...
Recommended Resource: Enenuru (http://enenuru.proboards.com/index.cgi) - a very scholarly discussion forum for all things Sumerian...m1thr0s
Ningishzidda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida)
http://abrahadabra.com/images/attached/Ng01.png
Relief impression of the royal libation cup of King Gudea of Lagash (Sumer), ca 2000 BC.
Depicting Ningishzida in his/her TwinSerpent form. article (http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/TowerOfBabel.htm)
Every now and then I get pulled away from my main focus of Abrahadabra and Mutational Alchemy by a mystery so profound that I am compelled to try to get to the bottom of it. I initially ran into Ningishzidda researching the Caduceus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus) and its roots of which the above icon is the oldest known version. I didn't think too much about it until a few years later when it came up again in a conversation regarding the historical roots of Satan. Getting the exact low-down on Ningishzidda (Ng for short) is not an altogether easy task as there are various forms it has assumed and there appear to be at least 2 distinct forms stemming from the Sumerian culture itself...one of which is clearly masculine and the other feminine. We also have to contend with competing interpretations from different scholars, some of which are starkly opposed to each other.
I am not going to try to resolve Ningishzidda's diverse definitions in this one thread since it would simply take too long. As regarding the character of Satan, our prinicipal interest lies with the Serpent from Genesis and the stark parallels to be found in the earlier myths of the Sumerians. An excellent article discussing these parallels can be found here (http://www.bibleorigins.net/ningishzida.html). The parallels don't end here however but get progressively stronger the harder we delve into it. It should be remembered when examining all of this that while the symbolism of the serpent in Genesis is true to its Hebrew origins, the name (or term) Satan never actually appears in the original text. This is a Christian association that was added on much later.
It's a little hard to be sure what the architects of this connection actually had in mind, but there can be little doubt that it was their intention to equate the character of Satan with the symbolism of the Serpent, which then, presumably, made it much easier to villify. But serpentine symbolism is much older than Christianity itself and has almost universally been a symbolism depicting the healing arts & sciences in one fashion or another, so it was a risky business perpetrating this intense negativity under this particular iconography, virtually guaranteed to backfire somewhere down the line. Snakes, like Spiders and Rats, are of a class of lifeforms that people have historically forged powerful phobias around with very little impetus. Snakes in particular have a longstanding association to human sexuality, so it is not a great stretch to imagine that these things may have factored into the choice of a symbolism of ultimate evil.
I have discussed all of this in a fair amount of depth on several other forums, so I am mainly interested in preserving its general outline here on these forums. This is a powerful topic and sets an excellent precedent for the whole notion of "protosatanism" in general. Whether we are operating within the framework of LaVeyan Satanism or Theistic Satanism or Traditional Satanism or any other branch of Satanism, a certain amount of confusion persists as to who or what Satan actually is. The protosatanic take on this is to attack the symbolism (including etymology) associated to the construct and attempt to cross-reference that symbolism everywhere it might happen to be found. From this we may hope to arrive at a definition of Satan that meets with a more universal criterion, rather than having to confine ourselves to either spoon-fed definitions (that make very little sense) or else *personal* definitions rooted in the enigmatic to begin with.
What follows is a partial list of links to Ningishzidda that may be of some use to anyone wanting to start their own investigation. There are a number of alternate spellings and I am not going to try to list them all. I am partial to *Ningishzidda* for purely personal reasons since it classes as an 11-letter word (viewing *sh* as a shin) whose notaricon (vowels removed) adds to 418 = Abrahadabra. The proof of this is here: N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418. Nevertheless, the more accepted spelling is Nin + Gish + Zida = Ningishzida, so you will tend to find more links under that spelling.
Search Tip:
Other spellings will include Ningishzida, Ningizzida, Ningiszida,Ninjiczida, Ninńišzidda, etc...
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Overview:
http://www.halexandria.org/dward376.htm
DNA and Ningishzidda:
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=164905;article=1923;title=Grid%20POINT
Generations of the Annunaki:
A Time Line Of Events...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANUTimeLine.htm
Generation No. 1...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU01.htm
Generation No. 2...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU02.htm
Generation No. 3...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU03.htm
Generation No. 4...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU04.htm
Generation No. 5...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU05.htm
Generation No. 6...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU06.htm
Generation No. 7...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU07.htm
Sumerian Resource:
http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/
Sumerian Lexicon:
http://www.sumerian.org/sumerlex.htm (http://www.sumerian.org/sumerlex.htm)
Sumerian Font:
http://gmalingue.free.fr/UrIII/UrIII/
Ng Iconography:
source: http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/genesisgenesis.htm (http://prophetess.lstc.edu/%7Erklein/Documents/genesisgenesis.htm)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Serpentningishzida.html
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Ningishzidabasrelief.html
http://www.bibleorigins.net/cherubim.html
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Cherubimsoutharabia.html
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Sacredtreeassyrian.html
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Serpent Symbolism:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent
Mesopotamia Overview:
http://www.geocities.com/darkmage71/myth/middleeastern/mesopotamian
Genetic Seeding etc:
http://www.soulinvitation.com/enki/
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Dictionary & Encyclopedia Ditties:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9055882
http://www.bibleorigins.net/ningishzida.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~templezagduku/ningishzida.html (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Etemplezagduku/ningishzida.html)
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Ningishzida & Hermes:
http://www.richeast.org/htwm/hermes/hermes.html
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/lords/lordninazu.html
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Ningishzida & Mutational Alchemy:
http://survive2012.com/dragon_myths_5.php
http://www.alchemylab.com/origins_of_alchemy.htm
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Annunaki in General: (with at least some reference to Ng)
http://www.geocities.com/digital3v14/texts/ancients.htm
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Ningishzida & Related Serpent Symbolism:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm
http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r073101d.shtml
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edit: I'm making this topic a sticky. I spent almost 3 years moderating the Satanism forum on a very busy discussion board and I'm not about to let this one turn into that one. Ng sets a very potent standard of what Satanism can be so I'm positioning that standard shotgun on this forum. I believe in the very best that Satanism/Protosatanism has to offer and that's about all of Satanism/Protosatanism I actually do believe in. If that means nobody else posts here, so be it. I'll add stuff in occasionally just to keep the trail warm...
This stuff really isn't for everybody anyway, though it does, in fact, include all people.
m1thr0s
omniprosopus
09-11-2006, 01:43 AM
wow. patron god of alchemy and infernalism(?) all rolled into one. dangerous character.
wouldn't want to cross this one I think. very interesting information.
-omni
Great accumulation of resources, and especially useful for such a not commonly discussed subject. Thanks for posting this m1thr0s. Even though I've read most of these in the past, it'll probably take a while for it all to truly sink in...
wow. patron god of alchemy and infernalism(?) all rolled into one. dangerous character.
wouldn't want to cross this one I think. very interesting information.Lol, I guess so omniprosopus...Ningishzidda is a very interesting subject with many vital ramiffications found not only in the field of Satanic/Protosatanic interest, but a lot more really. As you said, Alchemy is also directly related to it, as are other fields such as that of the genetic code itself. We alredy know that the very structure of DNA is very akin to that of the chinese system of the I Ching...also, the serpent symbolism brings heavy parralels to be found with Kundalini Yoga (which can also be considered a "medical" art of sorts), and other similar systems and structures. I guess it's notaricon adding to 418 is just another boon of sorts considering the parallels laid out so far, but a very powerful one indeed. So this is a very important subject I think, and one we can say to only having barely scratched it's surface until now...
Kain
This might go a bit symbolical allegory but imo the whole thing started to crack up when the snakes got separated from each other creating a fine polarity division like the symbolism of jesus dying at the cross(+&-), 'for everyones sins', gee I wonder who added that to the story. Anyway, looking at how polarized things are it's quite scary to see that Ningishzidda is obviously not present in this world even though it is by definition his birth-right to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_in_mythology
Cats bless Wikipedia :D
m1thr0s
09-11-2006, 08:43 PM
That's one of the best little articles on Serpentine symbology I've ever seen.
Thanks for the link Amur.
m1thr0s
For myself and from my own exploration, the snake reptile-brain has an apetite which is pretty much unnourished, which means that it can be used to set a direction with and it will go a long way with it alone. The bird-'reptile'-brain comes next. It's often depicted that the bird will catch the snake for some reason yet unknown. Perhaps the snake ran aloof to begin with causing a lot of abnormalities, as looking at NG concept, it is very much intact and perfect in itself already.
A question pops up, how will people get back to NG and to their trueselves.
m1thr0s
09-13-2006, 10:18 AM
A question pops up, how will people get back to NG and to their trueselves.So...you call that question a popup, do you? lol...
As we know, only cats know for sure and they absolutely refuse to talk about it...damn them...
furry little freaks, the lot...rofl...
m1thr0s
Đanisty
09-15-2006, 05:03 PM
I'm going to be completely honest here. I've never really understood any of this Ng stuff.
m1thr0s
09-15-2006, 05:19 PM
I'm going to be completely honest here. I've never really understood any of this Ng stuff.Well there's a fair amount of information on it so I don't know what you don't understand exactly. It's an archetype like Set or Lucifer or any other really. It's very old, corresponds to a whole class of serpentine archetypes and is especially linked to Alchemy since Ng was the genetic alchemist in the Annunaki pantheon...created the human race itself through advanced dna splicing of some kind...What do you mean when you say you don't understand it? Don't understand what it is or don't understand why it matters or what?
In a lot of ways I think I recognized what was going on with Ng from the very first moment I saw it, probably owing to the fact that I have been steeped in serpentine symbolism for so many years already and nearly everything I have been drawn to the strongest has been wrapped in this symbolism somehow. One has to stand back from one's intuitions a bit in order to communicate those insights to others and in the case of Ningishzida this can be a little difficult since the whole storyline seems to change markedly from source to source. If you add it all together there might be dozens of variations on this theme in Sumerian (or Sumerian-based) literature alone! Yet, throughout it all, the symbolism itself rings loud and clear and can be found all over the place from Sumeria, through Babylon, into Egypt, Greece, Persia, Asia, Meso- America...virtually everywhere you look.
So there's a lot to this "Ng stuff" to not understand. One probably needs to begin by getting more specific.
m1thr0s
Đanisty
09-16-2006, 07:47 AM
Well, I didn't really understand what it was and therefore I can't understand why it matters. First off, most of the Ng conversation on OF was begun by SatsUrn (RedStar) and I didn't understand 98% of what he posted (although it must have been pretty good because everyone else seemed to eat it up like candy). I followed a link RedStar gave me once that was supposed to sort of explain it, but it read like a Sci-Fi Channel original movie. It was like somebody hadn't thought through the script completely before publishing it. I don't know if the original story is that screwed up or if that was just the webmaster's interpretation.
On top of that, while I do certainly believe that ancient people were very advanced and even knew stuff that we don't understand, I can't really just accept (without some kind of actual ancient text to read for myself) that Sumerians knew a thing about DNA splicing. Everything I've ever read on the subject seems to have already been interpreted by people and frankly, I don't trust those people to not be nutcases. I want to get to the original storyline without all the talk of modern science so I can decide for myself. I have yet though to find a site that isn't either completely over my head or wasn't written by people I would be inclined to think are crazy.
Some of stuff on the Sumerian site I looked at about Cain and Abel was interesting but as soon as people start talking about space crafts and aliens, I lose interest because it sounds like somebody just has an overactive imagination. If I could read it the way the Sumerians told the story, maybe I could figure it out for myself. If I could read what exactly Ng was about without everyone else's opinions and interpretations, etc. I think I might be able to take it more seriously.
Anibis
09-16-2006, 09:29 AM
lol, the bane of my existence as an esoteric philosopher. Danistry, you just refuse to admit that the world is run by shape shifting lizards from Yugoth that landed in Sumeria and formed the illuminati. Shame on you for being a dupe of the NWO. Should you, on the other hand, wish to be enlightened, I might be willing to sell you the secrets of Dianetics!
Hear, hear. Lets have a list of really solid primary sources for Ningishzidda. I am more willing to believe that the Sumerians knew a thing or too about advanced eugenics, as for actual gene splicing, we shall see...
-Ibisis-
Edit: Actually the list of sources above looks fairly extensive, so I'll explore that first before acting like nobody's given us any sources. I would though like it to be spelled out what we do actually know, and what the nature of the evidence is: Text, Pottery, whatnot... Okey...
m1thr0s
09-16-2006, 10:32 AM
I seriously doubt that the Sumerians had a word for DNA specifically. Selective breeding was, however, an important factor in the rise of civilization, so it's very likely they did have their own version of genetic engineering. Different aspects of important cultural knowledge were typically embedded in the imagery of their godforms. There's not a lot more to it than that. In the Sumerian creation story, humankind is not just created from fairy dust or mud or whatever but came about as an expression of this breeding technology. Ng was given the task of producing an animal smart enough to serve as a suitable workforce, and humankind was the result...part animal, part god in essence.
I'm not real keen on all the UFO stuff either but it's not limited to the Sumerians. The Egyptian gods arrived in a "boat of creation" and Enoch presumably took off from earth in a so-called "translated city" and on and on. In ancient times, the "gods" were almost always asssociated to the stars of heaven so that would seem to open the door to all this UFO conspiracy stuff...for those who are into it that is...
I enjoyed my limited discussions with SatsUrn but I probably only ever caught about half of what he went on about. My interest in Ningishzidda may have been sparked with these discussions but is not based upon them at all. I am fascinated with an archetype that is an "underworld" form on the one hand connected to the Sumerian equivalent of the Tree of Life and clearly linked to alchemy on the other...not only on the basis of its original storyline, but also extending through time in the parallel symbolism of the serpent, or winged serpent and/or dragons everywhere. But I feel as though I have only just scratched the surface of it all in reality.
m1thr0s
Anibis
09-16-2006, 11:31 AM
In the Sumerian creation story, humankind is not just created from fairy dust or mud or whatever but came about as an expression of this breeding technology. Ng was given the task of producing an animal smart enough to serve as a suitable workforce, and humankind was the result...
m1thr0s
Do you know what the actual source of this legend is? Is it on a tablet, or what? I am interested but would like to know where exactly we know this from.
-Ibisis-
m1thr0s
09-16-2006, 11:37 AM
Try Googling "Sumerian Creation Ningishzida" or combinations thereof.
I have seen actual translated texts and there are several classics. I don't have a lot of time for this today though...
I'll try to help with digging out the more scholastic stuff a bit later.
m1thr0s
Đanisty
09-16-2006, 04:52 PM
See, that makes a whole lot more sense now. They were breeding...not doing labwork. Of course, I had a feeling it must have been that way all along. As far aliens and UFOs, I don't see it like that. A "boat of creation"...who says that's a UFO? To me, UFOs are based in scientific ideas...a boat of creation may come from another world and go to another world, but not in the same way as a spaceship.
m1thr0s
09-16-2006, 07:09 PM
A certain fascination exists among many people as to how ancient people might have known things that they seemingly should not have known. I have seen both very interesting and very ridiculous theories put forward along these lines. While I am not in a good position to document this stuff right now, one of the more interesting theories I have seen put forward has to do with the fact that many ancient cultures were a lot more aggressively involved in trance-state technologies than we are today and certain knowledge was often obtained as a result of being more adept at a kind of tool we no longer value very highly today, now that we have "cold hard science" to lick our wounds and fix every little problem.
Knowledge obtained by such a radically different means would also have taken on a radically different form and there might have been a whole different kind of checks and balances that kept it all running smoothly. It is possible that certain things were known that "shouldn't have been" known by todays measures but since they may have been using a whole different measures to begin with, who can really say for sure. Today the Microscope rules the world, but the ancients might have access to a kind of Macroscope we no longer use today. It's hard to say for sure, but the theory in itself fits a lot of other facts we do know about ancient civilizations, and even remnant civilizations that still cling to what is left of the old ways today.
So I am not prepared to say that ancient people did not have access to certain advanced scientific principles, but I do think it's fair to say they would not have been understood in the same kind of way that we understand things today and it's very likely that most of that knowledge gradually died off as a new way of looking at knowledge itself gradually gained sway with people.
m1thr0s
Đanisty
09-17-2006, 10:45 AM
Well, people tend to forget that ancient people were working with the same brains we have. They weren't stupid. They had the same potential we have. They just applied it differently. I just don't buy the idea that they must have had alien contact to do what they did. In fact, I think that's kind of insulting to humanity, really.
m1thr0s
09-18-2006, 02:43 AM
I'm sure this is all a detour, but it's an interesting one that will eventually wind its way back. I was going to post an article called the Dogon Theory of Creation but it's oppressively long for a cut-and-paste job so I made a little pdf file which can be scanned here (http://abrahadabra.com/pdf/Dogon.Creation.Mythos.pdf).
The point I wanted to make about all of this is that Carl Sagan's take on the whole thing is very typical of modern science zealots in general who automatically assume that (1) because the Dogon priests tell him they got all this information from an race of beings not of this world and (2) because there is no known way for them to have gleaned this information by any other known scientific means, this must necessarily imply that an alien race of beings came all the way to earth just to engage in a little scientific tete-a-tete with an obscure and isolated human culture! It never occurs to him that the Dogon almost certainly derived this information from trance work on some level and that while the information itself may in fact be sound, the symbolism it is wrapped in is not so very different than the symbolism common to all ancient people, ie, gods, angels, mysterious beings from nether regions and so on. These are archetypes, plain and simple. It is the arrogance of modern science to assume without thinking that its kind of knowledge is the only knowledge that can actually explain anything real in nature.
The ancients didn't have microscopes and computers and all this other modern science stuff so they used the stuff they had and in certain instances, under the right conditions, used by the right people in the right kinds of ways, these "old ways" were every bit as impressive as anything modern science is capable of pulling out of its hat...sometimes a great deal moreso in fact. But the world as a whole has mostly moved on from these old ways and has no real memory of those ways any longer. Until we begin to get a better handle on the science of knowledge itself, there will continue to be a great deal of ridiculous misinterpretation of the knowledge of ancient people.
m1thr0s
Lol. I'm probably a hybrid from outerspace with somekind of set mission here. The information blew into my consciousness from a Gamma-ray burst originating near the beginning time of the universe. Whatever the heck this is supposed to mean :D Then again... The flipside of the coin might be that I'm just crazy *grin*.
Seen some pictures of supposedly very old cave-paintings where extraterrestrials gave somekind of stone-disc to the people. Can't remember what it was about and might as well been fake. But in my own humble opinion there are too many pointers around the globe to something outside that it is either somekind of archetypal thing inside the human mind or then somekind of external event which has taken place.
When I come to think about it, it's like MiB2. Aliens from all over the place experiencing life as a human. Too bad many of them go into their heavenly 'vibe' loosing touch with the planet itself lol.
You might want to evoke the Sumerian Gods and see what they have to say.
Seipiriz
09-18-2006, 08:06 AM
It's an archetype like Set or Lucifer
It is very intersting your option of belief archetypes...Your option coresponds with the one of my most valuable professors back in school times...The thread is deep and interesting too..
m1thr0s
09-18-2006, 11:21 AM
It really is a fascinating mystery and Danisty has brought up some very important points here as well. We have to employ a certain amount of sophistication in our thinking when we say things like Ng = Genetic Alchemy for instance. I happen to think that this is a very true statement but the reasons I think this are conditional, having to do with how that symbolism filters down to today's language and knowledge. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ng was some sort of clinical DNA scientist per se or that the Sumerians were involved in anything resembling modern DNA research etc... And yet there are numerous indicators that genetics itself was understood on some very sophisticated levels by ancient peoples. How this is possible we don't really know but we are essentially the same animal today as we were 5-6000 years ago and the whole process of "knowing ourselves" will have led to many of the same kinds of conclusions I think. But we have to remember that the ancients got there in different ways than we would get there today...
m1thr0s
Kuroyagi
09-19-2006, 06:01 AM
I'm also interested in this as I have already said in the first incarnation of this thread.
Could you maybe (if you like) share more of your insights pertaining the question that has led you to this character viz the caduceus, and its role?
I myself see it generally speaking as the staff of the shaman by aid of which he travels to the "outside" and through a re-interpretation of himself and his culture he brings with him new technology, healing and advice to his society. This re-interpretation could eg be (if hes a man): his woman-nature (see Ngs androgyny etc) or animal, madman and simply "all man is not" and all new insights; of course the snake is also a symbol for re-birth, (cyclical) renewal, the horns denounce a master of creation&duality/this world...and one can still see parts of this traveler/emissary-motive in Hermes.
Another interesting question of course is how much of that DNA-connection was actually conscious knowledge to the Sumerians (to us today its naturally very obvious)...and another could be the question of "water": or whatever it was that was held in Gudeas cup, and its implications...?
Seipiriz
09-19-2006, 09:51 AM
Another thing which is very interesting is what was told before about divine archetypes...
In the most religious systems concerning polytheism there are godly stereotypes to be found such as the mother godess( Hera, Magna Mater, Isis etc) , the creator god (Hephastus, Ra, Dunan) ,the masculin god leader (Zeus, Odin, Wotan) and the god of trickery and change (Locky, Hermes and Thoth)...
As humanity with the turning of time, realised that the symbol of God that was used to make things happen that man believed he could not, could in fact concentrate all powers in one symbol, God became more abstract and faceless... We then reach the state of monotheism were archetypes take the place of the stereotypes and the abstract symbols are just two: The stereotype of Light, the God creator who is good, caring and ever powerful and the stereotype of Darkness the God destructor who is the incarnation of evil etc etc...
These stereotypes have a dual purpose 1) To examplify the society's appropriate behaviour and what happens if you do not follow and 2) To play the role of what man believes that he cannot do with his own power and do it for him after the proper imbuing of the symbol "God" with the proper energy..
The next step of humanity is what we now face as Atheism, a state of non believing , a state when humanity realises the big game of control and that the power lies within and needs no symbols to function...
Next stop : Autotheism
m1thr0s
09-19-2006, 10:11 AM
that's one of the more interesting breakdowns of monotheism I have seen in awhile. I have often wondered what was really behind the need to consolidate the gods in this way, since it sacrifices a lot just in terms of the pure art and joy of a more diverse range of godforms. yet the need was apparently stronger to break the spell of dependance itself, although it seems to have largely tranferred it from one symbolism to another.
In atheism I think we do find a sort of blanket rejection of all symbols but it fails to account for the fact that not all symbols are created equal. Some symbols are intrinsically instructional in nature and are thus a language system in their own right...one we cannot logically dispense with and still have somewhere to go. So atheism has this tendency to declare its freedom only to hit a wall of stagnation promptly thereafter.
Perhaps in autotheism what we actually see is a retreival of those bits that actually serve us in a more direct sort of way, giving us the freedom to both engage and disengage from these symbols at will...
m1thr0s
Seipiriz
09-19-2006, 10:20 AM
In atheism I think we do find a sort of blanket rejection of all symbols but it fails to account for the fact that not all symbols are created equal
I very much agree with you and to be honest I think that the phase of atheism is a very difficult and important state... In this state humanity must see that change should come in measures and that symbols as you say are not created equal . In this state humanity craves for guidance through research, knowledge and spirituality ...No , not all symbols are equal, so humanity must retrieve those symbols created for guidance, the symbols I call neutral symbols and utilise them as tools and not as dogmas...
What I fear most is that humanity might not be able to realsie that in the rampage of atheistic destruction...
Anibis
09-21-2006, 01:34 PM
Hear hear. I like your breakdown as regards Monotheism. I'd like to add a slant to it. I'd say that part of that evolution had a lot to do with the tools and technologies available to the cultures in question. This pertains most notable to the primary communicative tools, ie writing and the alphabet. The cultures who were most steeped in polytheism typically used pictographic writing. As the phonetic alphabet began to be employed, cultures leaned more towards monotheism. The development of the printing press, I would say showed the re-producability of writing (and thus it's 'inauthenticity') and inaugurated the slow rise of atheism. Perhaps with the media we are currently employing we are moving more towards autotheism. Marshall Macluhan figured we were re-entering a shamanistic sort of perceptive state. It stands to reason now with the flood of information and technique, some better than others, that the stance with the most 'survival value' is the one that allows itself to sift through, select and integrate the symbols which are the 'truest'.
-Ibisis-
P.S. This evolution I think is even more interesting when we look at cultures that instead of adopting the phonetic alphabet continued with and refined the pictographic form. Perhaps that accounts for certain of the inventive aptitudes of the Chinese?
-
That's a great point Ibisis. I hadn't really looked at this matter through the scope of language.
Kain
Seipiriz
09-23-2006, 08:32 AM
Yes I think you are quite right Ibisis and I would like to point out that the phonetic alphabet was originally Found in the coasts of Mediteranian especially to civilizations with growing trade routes..
Anibis
09-23-2006, 01:18 PM
The Pheonicians (Phonetic) were the first to perfect it, though the Egyptians were working on it, and had achieved at least a partially phonetic system, called Hieratic. interestingly, from what I understand the Mayan script is similar to this hybrid phonetic/iconic alphabet. It's interesting that the Egyptian monotheisms were attempts that never quite took hold, while the Hebrew monotheism (And Hebrew is founded in a big way on the Pheonician alphabet), was the first to really pull it off, so to speak.
-Ibisis
Kuroyagi
09-24-2006, 04:57 AM
So now for "autotheism", the present state of affairs and the nearer future: its a logical development of the hypocritical triad of modern simplicity whose major components are: democracy, science, protestantism (leading religion ad absurdum by religious means)- with the inbuilt system of self-gratification, modernism and Enlightenment upstartism. Its most prominent representative is the USA (a highly artifical construct) from where it has infested the whole planet. To picture this modern simplicity, one need only look at exports like coke and buggers who are composed of the simple culinary triad- salt, fat, sugar (other exports of simplicity are eg rock 'n roll or moving pictures)...to these all other flavours are reduced and complexity is more and more simplified and made functional...sad, isnt it?
Fortunately even the most simplifying and primitive developments contain the seeds of their opposites already within them...:D
p.s. or are we off-topic already?
Seipiriz
09-24-2006, 09:14 AM
The Pheonicians (Phonetic) were the first to perfect it, though the Egyptians were working on it, and had achieved at least a partially phonetic system, called Hieratic.
Exactly! And they were both mercantile people colonizing the meditteranian coasts..The Phoenicians were also rumored to have sailed all way round africa to create better maps..
Okazaki Castle
11-06-2006, 08:54 AM
Yes, by Zeus, ole Ningi was a most complex character! Takes a lot to even begin to understand him I would say... Imagine rebelling against thine own Father, he who created you and bestowed you with all your gifts and everything you were. Wouldst that not be the heights of arrogance? By Chronos, his Father must have been a real d*ckhead to warrant such revolution!!
Rather like the old YHWH I believ m1thr0s. I recall on the old OF thread 'The Two YHWH'S' you said that the tetragrammattic formula of YHWH was pretty much essential to any alchemical work and that it was pretty much impossible to do anything without including it. Yet recently on a Magic Catastrophe thread you said that both YHWH and Allah do not exist for you, or at all. Consequently one presumes that something has changed in the meantime. If I might ask you your take on this evolvement of circumstances? Or does my memory deceive me on this point?
all the best,
Oazaki, qua Subedai.
m1thr0s
11-06-2006, 09:42 AM
Yet recently on a Magic Catastrophe thread you said that both YHWH and Allah do not exist for you, or at all.The Hermetic formula YHVH (or IHVH if you prefer) and the collective god-construct by the same name are not the same thing. They are are not even remotely related since the latter is able to assume humanlike characteristics and emotions such as jealousy, anger etc, while the former exists solely at the level of energy-consciousness principle. They share a similar arrangement of letter values in their names and that is all.
m1thr0s
fr.novumorganum
11-06-2006, 12:53 PM
The Hermetic formula YHVH (or IHVH if you prefer) and the collective god-construct by the same name are not the same thing. They are are not even remotely related since the latter is able to assume humanlike characteristics and emotions such as jealousy, anger etc, while the former exists solely at the level of energy-consciousness principle. They share a similar arrangement of letter values in their names and that is all.
m1thr0s
i agree 100% and never tire of pointing this out. the same applies to all the magickal names and words of qabbalah--they are magickal formulae which have an independent existence from any theological existence. basic semantics/lingusitics and basic magick practice bare this out.
Okazaki Castle
11-07-2006, 04:30 AM
The Hermetic formula YHVH (or IHVH if you prefer) and the collective god-construct by the same name are not the same thing. They are are not even remotely related since the latter is able to assume humanlike characteristics and emotions such as jealousy, anger etc, while the former exists solely at the level of energy-consciousness principle. They share a similar arrangement of letter values in their names and that is all.
m1thr0s
Hmm. I do not destroy partially when I set out to eradicate a target. IHVH does exist as a formula and an entity is what my research yields. IT is a substitute holding pattern, I would contend. When something exists it resonates, connecting to that which resonates at the same level. Names are absolutely essential to determining resonance I have found. With that would you agree?
As such, it is the level or context that the name expresses in: godhood level, conceptual construct level, in combined situations such as, for example: painted on a board, in a particualr town, in a church with a particular congregation of members each with their own diferent ocntributing vibe, thus connected to specific histopries and lineageas, both genetic herediatry and karmic, all affaecting its vibes and qualities. Yet over all these, the Name will dominate. Why this is, I do not know, but it has held in practice in my own work. What think you thereof?
YHWH exists physically, and therefore in reflection in many places. Yet his essence, not. That has been drawn out, leaving lifeless husks where once occupied form existed. Such is my contention.
regards,
Oazaki.
m1thr0s
11-07-2006, 10:23 AM
YHWH exists physically, and therefore in reflection in many places. Yet his essence, not. That has been drawn out, leaving lifeless husks where once occupied form existed. Such is my contention.The whole idea of tetragrammaton as a "person" of some kind seems to be a kind of pollution that crept in over time...probably because it is simply easier for people to make that sort of connection, albeit a false one. By the time we reach the new testament this seems to go completely unchallenged and any memory of any other interpretation is completely lost, save for a skeptical minority who have to play a lot of duck-and-dodge against the raging hordes of "god-wills-it" thugs and zealots.
So I agree that some kind of intelligence resides behind the "name", but it has been nearly impossible, historically, to get people to understand that intelligence for what the name itself actually implies...which is not a "person" at all but a living principle inherent in all matter itself. But people don't much take to the notion of "living principles" in the main...everybody wants a "jealous god" in their corner it would seem. So the "husk" as you say, lives on.
We can target this and we can ultimately quash it on a personal level at least but it will still retain existence in the minds of millions of people. I have no interest in changing the minds of millions of people directly. I am content to work with what I know to be a superior intelligence on its own merits and leave it at that. People will have to sort out their own attachments in their own ways.
m1thr0s
m1thr0s
11-08-2006, 12:36 AM
When something exists it resonates, connecting to that which resonates at the same level. Names are absolutely essential to determining resonance I have found. With that would you agree?Yes, that is true I think, but it can be even more complex than this since some names resonate along a range of frequencies, rather than just one or even a few. This is not only true of YHVH of course. Look to other constructs as well and you will find diversity of interpretations almost everywhere you turn. Diverse interpretations amounts to diverse frequencies. Sometimes we actually have to insist on certain resonances to the exclusion of others in order to extrapolate that which is required of a given "name" or formulae. So it isn't just the name itself...there is context to be weighed into the balance. Many times we find good resonances intermingled with layers of pollution that have to be managed in some way. This is where having more than one trick up your sleeve becomes essential. You can employ a name in lieu of a given sigil for instance which will wage war against aspects of that name which might revile against that particular application. But by persisting in this you emerge with a "purged" formula which has been properly tuned to a specific channel. The Magus is hardly a one-trick pony and names are only as sacred as they conform to their more dignified aspects.
YHVH the "person", doesn't like hexagrammal fields for instance (or so I have noted). It literally burns his ass to come up against that particular application of his "name"...too bad...so sad...the name comes first. The Magus is no respector of "persons" relative to his appointed tasks. I have in certain places referred to the method of slaying certain godforms with their own damn names, and this gives you some idea how and why this is possible. It's all about application. What requires conditional worship to survive can be killed with conditional blasphemy. But the truth is blasphemous against a lie, so we cannot blame the blasphemy for the outcome. It's just words, afterall...:cool:
Not everyone will understand the value of "slaying" a godform of course. I did not invent this concept. It is an advanced magickal practise which has to do with purging energy within your own inner sanctum. You have to understand that your "house" is deadly serious business and if you allow it to be overrun with garbage, it typically will be. Archetypes are prone to degradation on many levels and this practise is one that either cleans them up or flushes them out...the rule of thumb being that if a godform can be slayed, then it should be. What is true will be reborn of its own ashes.
m1thr0s
What requires conditional worship to survive can be killed with conditional blasphemy. But the truth is blasphemous against a lie, so we cannot blame the blasphemy for the outcome. It's just words, afterall...:cool: An excellent way of putting it m1thr0s. Always intriguing reading posts of yours on this subject!
Kain
baenheh
11-12-2006, 10:15 PM
I wonder if the ancients were meaning celestial serpents in some of their myths as the 'springs of life and immortality'
The keeper of heavens gate was the horned serpent 'Ningiszida'
Its possible that the ancient astronomers and priests knew of the galactic center and the processes in the universe, which could advance certain aware individualls but bypass others.
Maybe it really was a process of genetic mutation from star dust transmissions towards the earth, and those that knew how to utilize it became the 'GODS' and others missed the boat and started warring.
Only initiates would have understood the 'true' meanings of the ancients legends, I think.
People this day and age are largely operating from a very different mindset than in that time period, and will always jump to different conclusions.
baenheh
11-12-2006, 10:30 PM
Here is a nice picture of a snake (but I see the horns on it also), in the area of sagittarius. You will have to click on to maximise on this pop up.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitzer/news/spitzer-20061027.html
The Egyptians always associated some of their serpents to celestial forms, and the Mayans to the serpent across the sun.
m1thr0s
11-12-2006, 11:13 PM
oh man...that's just too cool. I'm going to repost the image here uploaded to my own site just in case they change the page or something...
Galactic Serpent
http://abrahadabra.com/images/spitzer.snake.gif
m1thr0s
Indeed...thanks baenheh! :tsmile:
Kain
Well I did come to Abrahadabra looking for an article on Ningishzida, and not an entire forum with a thread. Good thing I stopped here first before the OF.
Now that I've gotten what I came for, I have another question, where did you stumble upon the correlation between Satan and Ningi, m1thr0s? The article you posted doesn't seem to suggest that, so am I correct in assuming this is your discovery, correct?
m1thr0s
11-25-2006, 07:02 AM
...where did you stumble upon the correlation between Satan and Ningi, m1thr0s?I stumbled onto an article via BibleOrigins (http://www.bibleorigins.net/) that really got me thinking about the parallels between Ng and Satan, initially. I sort of followed that thread around for awhile researching it through a whole assortment of other found resources.
edit: That particular article is especially focused on the Creation stories of both cultures and the Garden of Eden story is where we see Satan portrayed as a Serpent via the Christian interpretation. Most "protosatanic" archetypes are going to have more than just this in common though and Ng is no exception. Aside from its serpentine form we also find it "cast out" at one point in the storyline and thus positioned in opposition to the rest of the gods for instance. As lord of the underworld and Keeper of the Gate Ng serves to prevent the unprepared from ascending to heaven but also facilitates the ascention of the prepared. As Guardian of the "good tree", also called the "tree of truth", we find Ng as a Sepentine archetype guarding the exact equivalent of the "Tree of Knowledge" in Genesis.
good to see you here Naomi...
m1thr0s
Đanisty
11-25-2006, 03:18 PM
This is one of the major contemporary occult topics, and it is difficult to grasp for most people, Danisty. m1thr0s always gives his readers a run for their brain. :confused:
I'm not so much concerned about being able to grasp it as I am about people getting carried away with it and creating a big conspiracy-type scenario around it that doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with the concept...I have a problem with people who can't handle the concept taking it too far and attributing too much to it and making anyone who legitimately understands look like a nutcase.
You're right about m1thr0s though. Sometimes I think just letting him stretch my brain is helpful even if I don't grasp everything he writes.
Okazaki Castle
11-26-2006, 04:45 PM
Well, mei I contend that the power of The Word, and thus of Names lies in their Geometry and Sound. Thus, we find that Ningi sh zidda has an interesting construction. To start with, it starts with the Most Famous Syllable: nin. In Japanese, this is portrayed in Kanji as follows:
http://uk.geocities.com/bcdojo/nin.jpg
It is made up of two lesser characters for 'blade' above and 'heart' below. Funnily enough, that's also what Ken-shin means. The character for nin is also pronounced as shinobu. It is the same syllable featured in nin-po and ninjutsu.
Is it not amazing how this world's history and cultures cross-reference? At whose feet shall we lay the cross-reference implications of Ningishzidda's own name? Surely at his own, given his power and focus on the long game, or on End Game. Hail to the Serpent, and what does this mean, one wonders? :rofl: :confused: :cool:
Regards all,
Okazaki Kastle.
m1thr0s
11-26-2006, 04:52 PM
you amaze me sometimes Oazaki...
that's a beautiful symbol by the way...so clean and powerful...
m1thr0s
I'm not so much concerned about being able to grasp it as I am about people getting carried away with it and creating a big conspiracy-type scenario around it that doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with the concept...I have a problem with people who can't handle the concept taking it too far and attributing too much to it and making anyone who legitimately understands look like a nutcase.
You're right about m1thr0s though. Sometimes I think just letting him stretch my brain is helpful even if I don't grasp everything he writes.
If you can THINK it, it exists.We already look like a nutcase to most humans. So what exactly are you referring to. Any one instance on Occult Forums stand out in your mind that you would care to share?
Okazaki, note also that 'nin' means 'enduring' taken together. This forms the translation of ninja as "enduring man".
SJ:
http://www.scarletpage.com/images/recent14.JPG
m1thr0s
11-27-2006, 04:22 AM
I didn't spend months building up this damn site to talk about OF...screw OF, ok???
If you folks want to talk about OF, please take it to PM...
m1thr0s
I found out that nin can also mean patience.
The tengu of course, are one of the first mythological figures that comes to mind when talking about ninja or ninpo. They first came to Japan under the banner of Garuda, his name was later bastardized into karasu, meaning crow spirit. It is also an onomonopeia for the sound crows make, even though the eagles living in japan were also viewed as being incarnated or visible tengu.
Garuda is a deity of great stature and popularity, even today. Garuda is both the half-brother and enemy of the nagas, great serpents that gained their immortality by ransoming Garuda's mother's freedom for the elixir of life.
Garuda can be plural, as well. The garudas are creatures who operate in a similar fashion to the deity Garuda. They kill nagas, or serpents.
There is supposedly, according to Wikipedia, a legend that a Buddha once stopped the fighting betweem the garuda and the nagas.
In contemporary ninpo, tengu are an important aspect if only in legend and myth. One entire school of the Bujinkan dojo is attributed in legend to a yamabushi, or mountain priest, who are inextricably linked to the tengu. Yamabushi in many popular folk tales were often either tengu in disguise, or men who encountered tengu in the remote wilderness of Japan where they learned secrets of fighting.
Masaaki Hatsumi, the Bujinkan's current soke, speaks of tengu from time to time in conversation and in his written works, but the teaching of the esoteric parts, called ninpo, are not taught to those who do not live and train at Honbu dojo, the center of the Bujinkan, and even then, rarely...though his written work alludes to mystical aspects of the art. Many Bujinkan members are opposed to the treatment of the art as anything esoteric, even to the point of ridiculing Hatsumi's more surprising statements or dismissing them as a joke not to be taken seriously.
Okazaki Castle
11-27-2006, 03:41 PM
screw OF, ok???
OK. Hee hee. Well, if it looks like a hole...
Perhaps that is why AF was necessary. No focus to the O, see...
In Japan that's known as the ie. Western women don't tend to like that, cuz they like to be the ones telling their men what to do. Maybe other reasons also, haven't bothered to figure that one out yet tbh...
Talking of which, how did Ningi connect to Nu Kua (http://www.abrahadabra.com/nukua01.htm)?
you amaze me sometimes Oazaki...
Perhaps: I just hope I don't surprise you. After all, I only point out the obvious, it is others and past/future factors who carried out most of the work in this. For example, your work in the field, a truly massive undertaking.
http://downtownaustin.com/img/Nine%20Inch%20Nails.jpg
hmmm...
I wonder what
A double lightning flash out from the I is how I view it. Of course, perhpas it is working backwards from the sh, running it in reverse, thereby giving us HS, perhaps a Hiko Seijuro or HSBC connection there?
One wonders whose coffin those nine inch nails are for... Or are we talking crucifixions here? With the last triple K gate opened recently, perhaps there's a certain fiery symbolism to all this... :rofl: http://www.comefaccio.net/forum/images/smiles/evil.gif
Naomi: indeed - Perseverance furthers...
I'd say that patience needs to be firmly tempered with a heavy dose of intolerance to be digestible however...
Regards all,
Okazaki.
Đanisty
11-27-2006, 05:18 PM
If you can THINK it, it exists.We already look like a nutcase to most humans. So what exactly are you referring to. Any one instance on Occult Forums stand out in your mind that you would care to share?
:mrolleyes:This has absolutely nothing to do with OF. Surely you can imagine that I have experiences outside of one single forum. You're giving "regular" people far too little credit. It's by spending time outside of the occult community that I've found people can and will accept a lot of things if you can get them to listen to you first. As I said earlier, if you go on about genetics in terms of DNA splicing, people are going to dismiss you (because it's obvious that ancient Sumerians didn't know about the modern concept of DNA), while if you talk about genetics in terms of breeding, they can grasp it quite easily (because it's already been proven that ancient people understood breeding for specific traits). People are a lot more likely to listen if you don't condesend them.;)
m1thr0s
11-27-2006, 10:30 PM
There are other sides to this question but they are difficult to wrap your brain around as a rule. There are certain scholars who have put forward the idea that we haven't really learned anything we didn't already know but that the way we process knowledge itself has changed...and continues to change all the time. An enormous amount of what we think of as scientific knowledge today has its origins in the development of the microscope for instance. But the microscope may not be the only way for people to "see" things occuring at microscopic and subatomic levels. I've tried to bring this out before but it's a difficult concept to define. People have always observed themselves and their environment and it is possible that we have actually lost as many *observation skills* as we have acquired through the passage of time and are in many cases simply rediscovering things that have in fact been discovered before in the ancient past...but discovered in different ways.
But it's still a huge leap to go from that to asserting that the ancients knew this or that (in the same way we know it today) or had the same kinds of knowledge we have today because the ways in which knowledge is processed and housed impacts what it "is" in general. Since *modern science* didn't exist in 2500bc (or earlier), it would be ridiculous to assert that people possessed *scientific* knowledge...and yet...Pythagoras correctly predicted that the earth rotated around the sun in around 500bc and cataloged 10 planets in their solar orbits as well. How the hell did he do that? The fact is, we just flat don't know how he did that. There are all kinds of curiosities from the ancient past that we have no rational explanation for...things we know that people were doing or producing that they should not have had the technical skill to have achieved etc.
So my own habit is to leave all possible doors slightly ajar but not go charging through any of them too confidently...Maybe the Sumerians were aware of DNA...maybe they were not...neither assertion is guaranteed. But it's fairly certain that they would not have been aware of this in the same way as we are aware of it today. Until somebody can produce the Sumerian equivalent of an electron microscope, I think we can safely risk that particular assumption.
People assign all kinds of stuff to the Annunaki. It's easy to do. They were an advanced race of *gods* from somewhere in deep space so, I mean, what the hell could they not do? It's all very exciting and all of that but it doesn't prove squat to anyone who simply doesn't buy it. If you are already bought into it then it all makes perfect sense but if you're not it's just a load of camel cookies... I don't personally give a damn what the Annunaki did or did not know, did or did not do. To me, Ningishzidda exists ethereally and is more defining of a kind of intelligence that resides within us all than it is defining of some particular character in a particular set and setting. We're dealing with archetypes here and the evolution of archetypes down to the present day. That is why it is possible for Ng to be as relevant today as it was 5000 years ago...the archetype itself is very potent...very resilient...very persistent etc.
m1thr0s
Kuroyagi
11-28-2006, 10:02 AM
There are many Japanese characters that have the On-yomi (the Sino-Japanese reading) of “Nin”… http://www.uoregon.edu/~felsing/wired/jpnn.htm
If having time one could dissect the whole name and look for fitting Chinese characters. Nin-gi-sh(i)-zi-da.
Good fortune, Ku-ro-ya-gi. :p
m1thr0s
11-28-2006, 11:32 AM
I haven't really looked at Chinese linguistics yet Kuroyagi, although I am almost certain this would turn up some interesting stuff. I am very interested in the whole Dragon mythos of ancient China though and wish I knew more about the influence, or possible influence, of Sumer on Asia itself. The whole Apsu-Tiamat creation myth is uncannily similar to the PanKu-NuKua creation myth of predynastic China. Too similar to be a coincidence I think...
m1thr0s
Okazaki Castle
11-29-2006, 05:58 AM
.
So my own habit is to leave all possible doors slightly ajar but not go charging through any of them too confidently...Maybe the Sumerians were aware of DNA...maybe they were not...neither assertion is guaranteed. But it's fairly certain that they would not have been aware of this in the same way as we are aware of it today. Until somebody can produce the Sumerian equivalent of an electron microscope, I think we can safely risk that particular assumption.
People assign all kinds of stuff to the Annunaki. It's easy to do. They were an advanced race of *gods* from somewhere in deep space so, I mean, what the hell could they not do?
Well, what once has been done can be repeated. And is not ABRAHADABRA a useful tool for shifting quickly to occupy/assume others' persepctives easily and close to totally?
I happen to remember some things about my Sumerian lifetimes. My Annunaki life there I don't remeber in much detail yet, because it is not time to do so yet, so I hold it just above my conscious physical form's awareness. Also because in terms of memories it is pretty much wholly overridden by the first immediate life following it: Sumerian War Leader. Now, during that life, I had a Venus form as mistress. she's the same soul/person/character who is currently incarnated as Angelina Jolie, who, incidentally, was born 19 days before me and we share much of the same original natal chart geometry. It is she who came up with the solution to group karma: eradicate one side of the equation. Karma cannot move between groups if one of those groups doesn't exist within a system anymore. Hence, eradicate an entire people and culture and all its representatives and voila, problem of group karmas solved. That sort of ruthless simplicity is what I also remember as characterising the Annunaki thought processes.
I'm applying the same methodlogy to humans this lifetime, btw, just giving them the option to become other species, eg Vampyres, Elven prior to anihilation of human form/concept.
Now, in my Sumerian War Leader lifetime, Angelina's Papa, who was Sumerian King at the time, was a character I know as Shen Quan Zai, who went on to become Fu Xsi. So, perhaps that answers some correlations, or at least gives leads.
Further, I happen to remember you finding out how the Annunaki thought and moved. During the weaving period, a clear image of the methodolgy you used was revealed to me. However, during that period I was living parrallel, future and past timelines and did not really know, or care, what was what. Also, though I saw what you were doing I didn't really understand much of it, and further perhaps mind presented it to me in a way I could relate to. But I'll give it to you here for what it's worth.
You took this diagram:
http://www.abrahadabra.com/images/trigramtree001.jpg
and your logic went like this: Annunaki are different lifeforms, hecne they probably have a different energetic structure, and thier own equivalent of the Sephiroth/Qliphoth, as well as their own equivalent of basic line combinations (as opposed to trigrammatic representations). Then you took out the tree of life and the trigrams held within it.
Then you sat in the '0' of your name (m1thr0s) and allowed the impressions to surface from there, out of the void so to speak.
There were some sigils or geometric formations outside of that triangle also, but I didn't really understand those. I think they were to constrain the force involved, or direct it.
The process evolved by leads, or ideas and implications thereof, coming thru, then you followed these along and found they all cross-referenced rather neatly and consistently. By the end of it you were left with that same diagram of the abrahadabra grids with an Annunaki energetic structure superimposed, moving Annunaki genetics through it. Then you used that to do what they did, but better.
Which is sort of where we are now, to my mind and perspective. Just we're still being discreet about it still. Then again, I disconnect from Time often, and so forth, so maybe we're not there yet. *shrugs* Might be worth trying as an idea if you haven't given it a whirl yet...;)
Hmm, yes, Kuroyagi has an unfair advantage over us all because he is the only one who speaks the slitty-eyes own languages. Very cool, and it is something I am impatient to do, but for the moment I only know what I pick up here and there, or comes to me. A breakdown of Nin - gi - sh - zidda perhaps Kuroyagi-sama if you have the time and feel so inclined? The rest of us are all very interested...
all the best all,
Oazaki.
m1thr0s
11-29-2006, 08:25 AM
That's about right Oazaki. People don't always understand how "creative" science works. Many times it is a kind of "seeing", or "gazing" practise in fact. It has a lot to do with uniting past, present and future in many instances...of reaching deep into the ancient past to recover the clarity of mind that exists there and linking the dots in the timeline as they lead to the Now and onwards to the Future. The Future itself is still a "projection" but it is also a probabilities calculation, owing to the principle of "Karma", or of Cause & Effect etc. Through all of this *scanning* there remains a constant...whatever constant exists in the mind of the beholder...usually a question of some kind...how things work or how something can be done etc. This whole practise is what I refer to as the proper use of the *Macroscope*...something modern science does not wish to openly acknowledge, though it would be exactly noplace without it.
In all of this however, the Annunaki are only a footnote...they are not the thing itself...just another leaf in the winds of time really. That is why I do not spend too much time on it...with the exception of Ng. Nearly every period produces something larger than itself and this *something* bears a striking resemblance to itself across many *periods*. Ng is one of these...a kind of *superarchetype*...bigger than the gods...more powerful than the incidental pool from which it sprang.
m1thr0s
Okazaki Castle
11-29-2006, 09:21 AM
Hee hee, excellent! Might I ask... do you actually 'see' this process in your minds eye looking a bit like a whole load of concentric spheres, with threads running down thru these spheres, weaving and making helical turns as they do so, also sometimes zigzaggy or sharper turns? With this Earth somewhere around concentric innermost spehre 4 most of the time...
If so, then you have also presumably found that you can play with those threads, taking some out, introducing new ones... even changing whole spheres and introducing more of them. This is something like how I see and use ABRAHADABRA. The other key correlation being that it is also possible to use this grid system to 'shift' to other points on the 'map' so to speak, seeing things from those perspectives yet whilst in your physical form. Thus, one is able to take other, and others', perspectives, or positions, and use, or target, them.
Is that similar to your Modus Operandi with ABRAHADABARA? If not, might I ask how your differs, or what it's nature is?
In all of this however, the Annunaki are only a footnote...they are not the thing itself...just another leaf in the winds of time really.
True, but it should also be born in mind I think that the main limitation we have to contend with at the moment is the vessel we are using to access these insights and tools. Human, or human-ish, form is very, very limited in nearly all ways which count. Intellectually, in terms of visulaization capabilities, in terms of superpowers, and so on. Whilst we are in the most important/useful place at the most important time in all history that has thus far occurred (and not just because it is the Now, there have been other Nows elsewhere that were relatively insignificant in cosmic import) we are nevertheless still limited by the vessels we are currently using, in many ways at least. Hence the advanatage of modifying the vessel we are in to more closely approximate the sorts of vessels best suited to understand, modify and ultimately control and rule this system (determine its nature and form).
That is why I do not spend too much time on it...with the exception of Ng. Nearly every period produces something larger than itself and this *something* bears a striking resemblance to itself across many *periods*. Ng is one of these...a kind of *superarchetype*...bigger than the gods...more powerful than the incidental pool from which it sprang.
Veeeerrrrrryyy Interesting. Tell me, do you have awareness of the consciousness known as The God of Many Faces? This is what I think you are refferring to there... :eek: :cool: (that two eye difference there being significant in this ;) )
all the best,
Oazaki.
m1thr0s
11-29-2006, 09:45 AM
Hee hee, excellent! Might I ask... do you actually 'see' this process in your minds eye looking a bit like a whole load of concentric spheres, with threads running down thru these spheres, weaving and making helical turns as they do so, also sometimes zigzaggy or sharper turns? With this Earth somewhere around concentric innermost spehre 4 most of the time...Literally anything is possible in fields working...just a matter of tweaking the parameters. I am very focused on Earth as an anchor point personally as I need to throw all of my attention into charging that point with the full force of the system as a whole...so it tends to remain posited at center to the Tetractys itself in most of what I do. How things are posited has mainly to do with what in specific you may happen to be exploring...
True, but it should also be born in mind I think that the main limitation we have to contend with at the moment is the vessel we are using to access these insights and tools.People are not what they appear. Unlike some, I do not consider the "star" model of human being to be metaphorical, but literal. That means that thinking of ourselves as "dirty bags of mostly water" (to coin a phrase) is fundamentally in error. It is like defining ourselves from our toes down. One has to visualize one's True Self correctly to ever hope to be able to actualize it I think. Every Man and Every Woman is a Thermonuclear Power Plant of unfathomable magnitude in my view. Obviously that doesn't mean they will all acknowledge or equilibrate these facts at once.
Tell me, do you have awareness of the consciousness known as The God of Many Faces?Sure. same thing really...just different words...
edit: I have actually spoken with this entity face-to face Oazaki. I only tell you this because we are both crazy anyway so...who's gonna believe us...but I had a very extensive conversation with this entity many years ago...fascinating being beyond all human comprehension...it was he/she/it that set me on this path to begin with and opened all the vital doors as well...
m1thr0s
Okazaki Castle
11-29-2006, 09:57 AM
It is true what you say about Stars, and I certainly acknowledge and work with it... and black holes, and nebulae and that sort of stuff. But. It remains the case that no matter what we expand our consciousness to merge with or be, we still have to 'return' that consciousness into our physical form to 'ground' the insights and power thus gained. As such, the point about the vessel holds I'd say. Have a more powerful vessel, and you will find it is better for grounding of its own nature. Thus, the Earth element scenario, which must be very hard and annoying for you (or would be for me and most I think, but I have always admired your patience and tenacity), is neatly circumvented, or put on automatic in a way...
Sure. same thing really...just different words...
Cool. What do you think of his character (central of Father principle)? Both generally, as a matter of style, or tastes and personality... and also from a more strategic persepctive. I personally haven't found any weaknesses/flaws there that I can use to break him, should I wish to at some point later. Not that I'd necessarily do so you understand, but as an academic exercise I do like to examine all possible targets and find where the 'gaps in their defenses' are. Haven't found one with him yet. Tis fun, the perfection of it, but makes me wonder, cuz, well, so far everything I've looked at has some weakness or other...
all the best,
Oazaki.
m1thr0s
11-29-2006, 10:20 AM
It is true what you say about Stars, and I certainly acknowledge and work with it... and black holes, and nebulae and that sort of stuff. But. It remains the case that no matter what we expand our consciousness to merge with or be, we still have to 'return' that consciousness into our physical form to 'ground' the insights and power thus gained.Well, this is what Abrahadabra teaches us...that Tree & Star are a cooperative/symbiotic relationship...they are not separate, save only in the mind, and also physically "blocked" until such time as that blockage is finally recognized and removed. So there is no discrepancy. Both things can be the case at the same time, and are in fact, already that way at the level of the physics itself.
Cool. What do you think of his character (central of Father principle)?It would be hard to qualify what I *think* of an entity as advanced beyond myself as I am advanced over an amoeba. I was sure as hell impressed, I can tell you that. As I was talking with he/she/it I watched whole pantheons flowing into and out of its chambers...some in a great rush with urgent matters obviously pending...how do you judge something like that? Rather I attended to my own business in relation and just sort of marvelled at all the rest...
edit: this was a very atypical trance experience by the way...just so people understand that. I am not one to carry on such conversations with extra-terrestrial intelligences on a day-to-day basis or anything...this was a one-shot deal and I am quite certain it won't come up again in this immediate lifetime. *Why* it decided to communicate with me is a whole other can-o-worms. Who the hell knows...luck of the draw maybe...odd-man-out...maybe it just liked my poetry...maybe I'm actually the King of the Universe and we needed to discuss my phone bill...lol
m1thr0s
Okazaki Castle
11-29-2006, 02:40 PM
Well, this is what Abrahadabra teaches us...that Tree & Star are a cooperative/symbiotic relationship...they are not separate, save only in the mind, and also physically "blocked" until such time as that blockage is finally recognized and removed. So there is no discrepancy. Both things can be the case at the same time, and are in fact, already that way at the level of the physics itself.
Yes, but at the level of the personal experience? How does one remove that block in the fastest way possible? This is what I've been working on since around 1 year old. My block was placed on my physical body physically you see, still remember the experience vividly, ijn a German hospital with transfer overnight, secretly, to Amsterdam. It's why I I've hated the illuminati for so long and sought to destroy them by any means necessary, then crush them in the dust, then torture them, then de4story all they connect, then torture it, and as on and so forth.
Hence, how does one remove that block as fast as possible? that is the key consideration I believe.
It would be hard to qualify what I *think* of an entity as advanced beyond myself as I am advanced over an amoeba. I was sure as hell impressed, I can tell you that. As I was talking with he/she/it I watched whole pantheons flowing into and out of its chambers...some in a great rush with urgent matters obviously pending...how do you judge something like that? Rather I attended to my own business in relation and just sort of marvelled at all the rest...
Well... I'd say it's just another character and don't be awed by him or anything. Perhaps it is even the case that you yourself are superior to it in many ways, and absolutely also? Certainly I would subscribe to that point of view. But he is in Godhood, and so more idealized. What, then, one wonders would we be like existing in such a state?
A lighter state necessarily contains less substance. It is also more relaxing, and gives you time to put your feet up and have fun. Relatively speaking. And mayhaps he too was/is working on something, like how to put all the work on automatic, just like the rest of us who're awake to the game in all this....
Personally also I'd say get him to do things for you. You make it there on your own, or get there by whatever you can, demand things from him, get him to give you things. After all, do not the muslims: 'When you take one step towards God, He takes 10 000 steps towards you'. Well then, I figure we're owed a whole sledload of steps, plus more.
maybe I'm actually the King of the Universe and we needed to discuss my phone bill...lol
:yes::yes: :rainbow: Except that bit about the phone bill. It's free and you're owed for communicating with the forces that be...
all the best,
Oazaki.
Okazaki Castle
11-29-2006, 02:46 PM
~One thing though, more a philosophical point. I'd say that is the true God, once you get past the BS and inefficient crap of the gods of this system/creation. As such, if we're being Satanists, do we have to oppose him and seek to destroy him? That doesn't really work in the context of his character... except that he allowed the injustice here on this planet to continue and played a less active role in dismantling it than we did. He's prbbly got some way round that, but it looks sort of like a hole from some perspectives, enough to be useful I think, but I like him, and so don't really want to destroy him, also he's fun. But philosophically, as a matter of consistency, how does this factor in?
Best Regards,
Oazaki.
m1thr0s
11-29-2006, 02:52 PM
Hence, how does one remove that block as fast as possible? that is the key consideration I believe.The entire evolution of knowledge leads up to that question Oazaki. One has to have a very clear idea what the blockage is. This means one has to understand the anatomical physics involved accurately enough to diagnose and treat it properly. Abrahadabra and Trigrammal Field Theory put us closer to this than anything else I know of on this entire earth but we won't know for sure how to pick that lock until it has been picked...not just once...but can in fact be locked and unlocked at will...
We're getting closer but we're not quite there yet... There are certain logistical issues to be ironed out yet and it's still not 100% certain what all of these are. Some, for instance, believe that there are certain atmospheric constraints that will necessitate atmospheric modifications. I don't ascribe to that theory personally. I think it's all within our grasp. I very much doubt there will ever be any kind of "rapture" event that causes the race as a whole to awaken but it's an interesting theory.
edit: if you're just after FAST of course, there's always death.
Otherwise we slug it out in the trenches until we've nailed it clean.
m1thr0s
m1thr0s
11-29-2006, 06:23 PM
Perhaps it is even the case that you yourself are superior to it in many ways, and absolutely also?It's funny you should say that Oazaki...that seemed to be its position as well. I have generally rejected the idea on its face but then I was never terribly self-preoccupied that way. Now that you mention it though, there might actually be certain doctrinal supports for that idea...all surrounding the notion of the Paramatman and Atman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman) generally I think. Complicated discussion though... In a nutshell, those who labor in the trenches rank higher than they know. So much more can be accomplished there, though the odds are seemingly always against it...there are curious parallels in this to the symbolism of the Emperor in the Tarot, though unfortunately the more mystical aspects of the Emperor have been trashed over time. And yet, if you look carefully at his shield insignia (Thoth deck and others) you will see a form of the TwinStar there...the double-headed phoenix, sometimes also called the Phoenix of Hermes etc... The Empress carries this as well... It happens that Ningishzidda follows this symmetry also, so in a sense we come full circle to Ng yet again.
m1thr0s
Okazaki Castle
11-30-2006, 03:26 AM
http://www.stanford.edu/class/slavgen194a/images/russia_eagle3.gif
Yes, the Russians surely should pay attention (espec with the all the trouble Putin's been getting himself into lately...)
edit: if you're just after FAST of course, there's always death.
Yes! My Way precisely! Or as the Fench call it 'Le petite mort'. Made bigger. Lots, lots bigger....
No point losing physical form whilst it serves useful anchor purposes though. As detailed above by us both vis-a-vis our personal superiority to the Supreme God of All Creations. Well, that anchor opiint can always be used to become even more superior I think, so why not?
Thus, those logistical issues. Care to throw a few of the ones which are being troublesome for you my way and I can solve them for you? Then in return, I can do likewise, throwing a few of my thornier ones your way for your solve et coagula. Or perhaps really just cross-referencing perspectival tools...
So returning to Ng, how do you think he connects to that Central Intelligence:
That is why it is possible for Ng to be as relevant today as it was 5000 years ago...the archetype itself is very potent...very resilient...very persistent etc.
?
all da best,
Oazaki.
m1thr0s
11-30-2006, 03:49 AM
So returning to Ng, how do you think he connects to that Central Intelligence:
Ninghishzidda reasserts the Way at a pivotal time in history when the Way is hinted at through Science but altogether lost on Religion, and sadly, much of Philosophy as well...even the Tantras have become sullied and ambiguous...
...and then there's Ng...reasserting the same exact assertion He/She/It asserted from the very beginning...That men are part Animal, part God, and altogether invested with the power to choose their final Dharma...
The best of gods lead by way of their examples...those embedded in their emblems...those embedded in their legends. Whether we are speaking in the language of DNA or speaking in the language of Breeding, the example itself is clear. Ng was the Alchemist among his peers who created Man by means of a highly technical gene-splicing...so technical in fact as to be generally lost on the gods themselves, except of course, for Ninghishzidda, the Genius among the Gods.
That Genius set this ball in motion. That same Genius will see it to Completion.
It is Ng that first sounds the battlecry:
There is no God, but Man.
Understanding this in the way it should be understood, informs us of the path that we are set upon, the price we have to pay and the direction in which all real solutions to the real problems that we face must inevitably be found.
Ng is the Conduit and the Conductor. The force itself resides Within.
What Within? According to Ng, Within our very Genes.
m1thr0s
m1thr0s
11-30-2006, 10:18 AM
The emblems that have always impressed me the most are the ones that offer technical instruction. In many cases these may take the form of symbols. On rare occasions they may also take the form of gods or similar archetypes. This is what I really see going on with Ninghishzidda and why it really piques my interest. As an alchemical theorist steeped in the mysteries of the Body of Light I get all kinds of technical clues from Ng on many different levels. It's form is like a catalog of ancient Mutational Engineering Science. If you know how to read it, it's chock-full of technical information...
m1thr0s
Hey M1thr0s would it be too much trouble to post some of those symbols you associate with Ng?
Also have you read up on Shaitan, the peacock angel? He's a primary figure in the Yezhidi religion in the middle east. He is also known as Melek Taus. I learned about him through Samael over at the 600 club boards when he made an obscure reference to Shaitan's words.
Now as I've said before I never delved deeply into Persian mythology, so this is why I would like to know how closely connected Shaitan and Ningishzidda are related pardigm-wise.
Links:
http://www.ziarah.net/peacock.html
"Some Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian), Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) and others identify Melek Taus as Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer) or Shaytān (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan) (Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)). The fact that the Yazidis have stated that their God is the "evil one" of other religions hardly clarifies the matter. The Yazidis' cultural prohibition against uttering the word – saying God's name is"
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus)
I always skip the 7's. Sorry about that. Anyways I've been riveted by the conversation you've been having here, O and M.
Particularily:
It would be hard to qualify what I *think* of an entity as advanced beyond myself as I am advanced over an amoeba. I was sure as hell impressed, I can tell you that. As I was talking with he/she/it I watched whole pantheons flowing into and out of its chambers...some in a great rush with urgent matters obviously pending...how do you judge something like that? Rather I attended to my own business in relation and just sort of marvelled at all the rest...
edit: this was a very atypical trance experience by the way...just so people understand that. I am not one to carry on such conversations with extra-terrestrial intelligences on a day-to-day basis or anything...this was a one-shot deal and I am quite certain it won't come up again in this immediate lifetime. *Why* it decided to communicate with me is a whole other can-o-worms. Who the hell knows...luck of the draw maybe...odd-man-out...maybe it just liked my poetry...maybe I'm actually the King of the Universe and we needed to discuss my phone bill...lol
I want to discuss this more later but I'm out of time and have to go to a mexican restaurant with the Chans from the other side of reality. Maybe I'll meet Quetzalcoatl....
I always skip the 7's. Sorry about that. Anyways I've been riveted by the conversation you've been having here, O and M.
Particularily:
I want to discuss this more later but I'm out of time and have to go to a mexican restaurant with the Chans from the other side of reality. Maybe I'll meet Quetzalcoatl....
Off-Topic: Quetzalcoatl lives on my wall as an Ouroborous. ;)
m1thr0s
12-03-2006, 07:06 PM
Quetzalcoatl is just too damn handsome for words...
There's a lot of angles to looking at Ng's iconography...there's a lot there but the prevailing theme if still Winged Serpents and very often Twin Forms of these so you always get that Male-Female-Quintessential-One thing going on with Ng. This is so prevalent a theme that many experts are agreed that there were always Two Ngs in fact and not just one. Certainly we find many references to Ng as wife to Damuzi while in other places we see Ng addressed as Lord...in his Underworld functions, as Keeper of the Gate, Guardian of the Tree, Presenter of Kings and so on... Further on we find Part Human - Part Animal forms also, the same as with the Egyptian godforms...
The famous Lamasu depicted on the Gate of Ishtar is said to be a form of Ng in his "Mushushu Dragon" Form, so now we have not only serpents and fying serpents but Dragons proper going on. It's hard to escape the observation that if there was ever a really stark and powerful image devised by humans at any time, Ng inevitably acquired those attributes somewhere, in one form or another.
And still there are underlying themes here...it's not just some sort of hapless mish-mash of imageries. There is continuity and purpose behind all of these types of associations. Certainly we have the Shamanic traditions upheld and preserved in Ng...also Tantric traditions and all things having to do with the Body of Light in general...As the iconography itself evolves and moves into Greece and China and MesoAmerica and Africa, Egypt and other places we see that iconography assuming the medical and mystical end of things almost without exception...
So the question is easy, but the answer is HUGE: what kinds of symbols in particular correspond to Ng...It's a powerful question that needs to be explored over a period of months and years to begin to get the whole gist of it I think...
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 03:26 AM
I was wondering if anyone was aware of Nicolas De Vere's interpretation of the Anunnaki,their descendants and rituals,and if so,what they think of it.....
m1thr0s
12-05-2006, 01:50 PM
Greetings Pagan39!!!
No...actually...not specifically...do you have any links or anything?
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 10:37 PM
Thank you m1thr0s,
I have been watching this thread with a keen interest over the last few days.
Nicolas de Vere wrote a book called the Dragon Legacy.His website is www.nicolasdevere.com (http://www.nicolasdevere.com) There is also an interesting background interview with him on www.traceyrtwyman.com (http://www.traceyrtwyman.com).
Namaste
Pagan39
m1thr0s
12-05-2006, 10:45 PM
these both appear to be dead links...could you check the spelling?
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 10:51 PM
As to which symbols pertain to Ng,a definite one is the glyph used for Gemini. As Mercury (Hermes/Thoth/Tehuti/Ng) rules Gemini,this is definitely one of his.
The interesting thing to note is,unlike the caduceus,the rods no longer entwine but stand separately from each other.Something to ponder....
MythMath
12-05-2006, 10:55 PM
Is this part of my NASA obsession through the 60s...?
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 10:56 PM
oh bugger...and I went to all the trouble to google them...I'm afraid I'm not the computer maven you all are...Tracey Twyman is a staunch defender of De Vere...maybe if you do a search Nicolas de Vere/The Dragon legacy which is what I did.....
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 10:58 PM
How does this relate to a NASA obsession? In the words of a famous australian redhead, 'Please explain?' Laugh.
MythMath
12-05-2006, 11:00 PM
My Kingdom is Not of This World:
An Interview with Prince Nicholas de Vere von Drakenberg
http://tracyrtwyman.com/blog/?page_id=87
_____________________________
___________________________
NASA used terms like Saturn V, Mercury, Gemini, etc...
Pretty captivating stuff for an 8 year old born in June...
m1thr0s
12-05-2006, 11:03 PM
coolbeans...thanks MM...
it's an interesting article to be sure. while I think it is imperative that he continue to track the line itself from a strictly documentational point of view, I would find it perfectly laughable that anyone might think this bloodline would have remained pure in any sense of the word. Dragons are much too promiscuous for that so that if there is any truth to the genetics claim itself (and there may well be) there is virtually not a chance in hell that it hasn't spilled over by now into other bloodlines as well...
but the basic premise is very engaging and I hope he continues to compile it all...
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 11:16 PM
Astronomy is something else,isnt it?
Absolutely mesmerising....best meditation I ever do is when I visualise I'm sitting on the edge of the galaxy looking out...closest I get to it here is when I'm driving in my car at night long distances...you get that sense of space,distance....and peace.
Anyway back to Ng and his iconography...of course the symbol for Gemini is the Twins....I have wondered if he wasnt one.That would answer some contradictions as to gender in some of the texts.
Pagan
Pagan39
12-05-2006, 11:40 PM
Although the article is a taste of his theory,as a devoted bibliophile I would recommend reading the whole of his book The Dragon Legacy.I would be deeply interested in the opinion of an occultist of your calibre.
Whats your take on the abandonment of Teotuacan?
Pagan
MythMath
12-05-2006, 11:43 PM
Please share more info on the caduceus, or it's alternates...
And how can you beat the twin angle...?
MM
fr.novumorganum
12-06-2006, 02:48 AM
i just did a google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Nicolas+De+Vere%27s+&btnG=Google+Search),
this reslut seemed the most relevant (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_dragoncourt.htm), but i dunno if i'm helping
Pagan39
12-06-2006, 04:14 AM
Thats the best result I've had on Nicolas de Vere....thanks for that.Ng is mentioned in the chapter'The cult of Ankou' pg 170...
m1thr0s
12-06-2006, 07:42 PM
yeah...great link...thanks fr. novum!!!
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-07-2006, 01:47 AM
I just read the article 'Eden's Serpent and its Mesopotamian Prototypes'...it was really informative and added to my growing collection of articles on Ningishzida.I was curious...M1thr0s,what was Ng's appearance when you accessed him in that deep trance?
Namaste
Pagan
m1thr0s
12-07-2006, 02:17 AM
pardon my confusion...I couldn't figure out what you were referring to. That was part of a side-conversation I was having with Oazaki regarding what he regards as an all-father godform (god of many faces I think he calls it). I never made any association to that as being the same as Ng in that instance...that was something else I think.
However, when I do reflect on Ng...and this will almost certainly sound certifiable...I get what can better be defined as a sense of memory reflections than anything else. I am aware of course of the wide array of archetypal coordinates that Ng commands and I have scanned these many times from the Underworld forms to the Guardian forms to the Palace of Ereshkigal to the Throne of Tiamat and more...when I scan these guys I go all out...I want every scrap that I can get. But the weird thing...the thing I can't explain is the memory stuff...as if I had actually been Ng at some point in this worlds development. I have no idea what to make of that and I have not drawn any conclusions from it. I can only report a powerful sense of memory visions corresponding to this particular archetype in my case...
There may be numerous possible explanations for it though and not just the most obvious or the most ridiculous...
m1thr0s
m1thr0s
12-07-2006, 09:52 AM
Ng is taking the entire modern world completely by surprize. He/She is such a strategist! It's difficult to imagine something so powerful managing to remain so hidden...how very snakey of him/her! Suddenly right out of nowhere I am reading little clips saying that the entire upcoming Aeon is to be ruled by Ningishzida! Ning-who? lol... Who the hell it that? Where the hell did he come from? lol... That's just how it is with Ng...
Ng certainly has his human-like form so it is not at all impossible for him to manifest in this way. The process of "assuming the godform" very often does ignite memory sensations so that in itself is not especially alarming. I think that it is the personalness of these kinds of memories that takes me aback...I personally have a number of very good reasons to think that Ng links to Abrahadabra itself in some way...we don't really know who came up with this formula originally or why but its a very "genetics" oriented formula and that was traditionally Ng's ballywick...I think it's his enginery though there is no way in hell for me to prove that right now...purely instinctive on my part...
It didn't surprize me to learn that the Notaricon on Ningishzidda adds to 418 though...I was excited but not terribly surprized by this. Notaricon, if you don't already know, is a classical method of counting words minus their vowels...technically, this is not the original meaning of the term Notaricon, but has become one of its more popular common applications...
N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418!!!
True, you have to double the D's to get it but this is not an unusual spelling anyway and has other relevant associations...
m1thr0s
MythMath
12-07-2006, 11:02 AM
Well, Ng details are definitely a focus of the locus...
This thread's got the highest view
count of any on the Forums... ;)
___________________
Please more on the Twins 'theory'...
MM
d
doubling
Pagan39
12-07-2006, 06:44 PM
Mythmath,I wish I had a 'twins theory' on Ningishzidda.Laugh.
I have a feeling we might be in the process of beginning to put one together though.Now Ng historically has been sexually ambiguous...this according to M1thr0s's research....I havent done much research on that aspect of Ningishzidda.....so its not too much of a stretch to leap to twins.Of course he/she could be the perfect fusion of both genders as well.
However I have an intuitive leaning towards the twin aspect,in the article 'Eden's Serpent and its Pre-biblical Mesopotamian Prototypes' there was one story that said Tammuz and Ng were married to each other's sisters.Was she a twin?....there is nothing to support that and that is when I turn to iconography.
There is no argument that Ng is Mercury who rules Gemini whose symbol is the Twins...now the greeks cast the constellation as two brothers,Castor and Pollux but that could be misleading for our purposes and I have yet to cross reference this to the stories of other cultures relating to this constellation.Perhaps someone else can contribute to this?
And I must admit the lack of expressive flow to some of the astrological glyphs makes me think they belong to a more primitive culture...compare them to Asian and Arabic calligraphy.The glyph for Gemini is of twins polarised as compared to the caduceus which is of twins harmoniously entwined.Why was the caduceus,which has always been used to symbolise Mercury/Ng not used in astrology but replaced with an inferior glyph (to my mind).
As a feminist I have a few ideas on this.....but I dont want to get off the thread.
What are your thoughts on Ng and twinship...
Namaste
Pagan
Quetzalcoatl and his twin were represented by the Morning Star and Evening Star. As a relative analogue of Ng, do you think that would transfer over?
Pagan39
12-07-2006, 06:53 PM
M1thr0s,
The memories are the key I feel,I have been painstakingly piecing the few I have together...then doing research to see if it backs them up...alot of it is going with intuitive feel...at the moment Ng guards his secrets....makes me work for them...
I find your work on things like the Notaricon interesting because they are so different from the areas of my research around him and yet so complementary.
Pagan
Pagan39
12-07-2006, 07:04 PM
Aodh...that meso american transfer definitely works for me....I find it really exciting to see a cross reference support the twins theory...obviously my knowledge of meso-american mythology is lacking....
What about if the astrological glyph for Gemini is not of twins polarised but twins separated?.......
Pagan
m1thr0s
12-07-2006, 07:40 PM
Quetzalcoatl and his twin were represented by the Morning Star and Evening Star. As a relative analogue of Ng, do you think that would transfer over?Absolutely Aodh. Most experts agree that the iconography is too similar to have been a coincidence anyway...
I find your work on things like the Notaricon interesting because they are so different from the areas of my research around him and yet so complementary.Oh...that's nothing at all...Mutational Alchemy builds around the binary and ternary hexagrams which entertwine directionally like two opposing snakes, yin & yang...the whole damn engine is like an extension of Ningishzidda's body...
But that requires a great deal more explanation...that's part of why this site is here at all...to explore that whole knowledge & conversation.
Also just to screw around with other kinky occultish thingies...:laugh:
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-08-2006, 12:58 PM
In ancient Sparta the twins...Castor and Polydeuces were called the Tindaridai...the sons of one of the Spartan kings. Tyndareus..you know they had that unique double 'twin'king system...the astrological glyph for Gemini is a uniquely Spartan aniconic representation of the Tindaridai...no wonder theres no flow if it came from them...lol......did a bit of reading on Quetzalcoatyl and his twin....like the greeks the twin was male and one was deformed in comparison to the other,Castor with his mortality and Xolotl with his appearance.How that relate to Ng is anyones educated guess.
Relating it back to the caduceus..I guess the implication of a damaged twin is that the energy Ningishzida represents is also damaged and that it occurred after the Babyonians and before the greeks...given the myths...dont have a timeframe for Quetzalcoatyl....Anyone?
Pagan
Pagan39
12-08-2006, 01:06 PM
However, when I do reflect on Ng...I get what can better be defined as a sense of memory reflections than anything else. But the weird thing...the thing I can't explain is the memory stuff...as if I had actually been Ng at some point in this worlds development. I have no idea what to make of that and I have not drawn any conclusions from it. I can only report a powerful sense of memory visions corresponding to this particular archetype in my case...
C'mon,M1thr0s,give it up.....what memories from where and when...I would be fascinated to hear them.....
Pagan
Hmm, off the topic of timeframe but on the topic of Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl and:
Perhaps because Quetzalcoatl was more than likely a representation of Ng superimposed upon a tribal god (which was created from Quetzalcoatl the ruler) that is why Quetzalcoatl and his twin seem more seperate than Ng who seems to be represented as TWO as opposed to "having a twin". The actual mythos for Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl being just an expansion on the concept Ng truly represents: Man in totality. Gruesome and Seductive; Mortal and Immortal; Light and Dark; Formative and Destructive.
Ng represents totality and balance. That make sense?
Pagan39
12-08-2006, 01:12 PM
Absolutely Aodh.
Oh...that's nothing at all...Mutational Alchemy builds around the binary and ternary hexagrams which entertwine directionally like two opposing snakes, yin & yang...the whole damn engine is like an extension of Ningishzidda's body...
But that requires a great deal more explanation...that's part of why this site is here at all...to explore that whole knowledge & conversation.
Also just to screw around with other kinky occultish thingies...:laugh:
m1thr0s
So everything to learn about Mutational Alchemy is in the Table of Contents of this site? Begin there...yes?....I have always been avoiding alchemy and what I call ritual magic....guess its time to learn....sigh...lol
Pagan
Pagan39
12-08-2006, 01:30 PM
Yes,Aodh,that makes sense....the difficult thing for me to keep out of this discussion of Ningishzida is my own agenda....laugh....trying to make things fit around that.For me,Ningishzidas reemergence has to be intimately involved with the raising of the Shekinah or he's wasting my time....
One thing I do like about the myth of the Greek twins is the information 'that the image of the twins attending a goddess are widespread and link the Dioscuri with the male society of initiates under the aegis of the Anatolian goddess [Cybele]
http://en wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Polydeuces
Pagan
m1thr0s
12-08-2006, 02:57 PM
C'mon,M1thr0s,give it up.....what memories from where and when...I would be fascinated to hear them.....
PaganWell it's tricky Pagan39...like yourself I have only really been aware of Ningishzidda for a little while. But here's something really strange...to me at least. I have a very clear recollection of a very powerful trance I had over 20 years ago (yeah, I am no kid anymore)...long before I ever knew anything about Ng. At that time I went into this very powerful trance state that to this day I think may have occurred because my body thought I was dead...it got confused for a moment and sent the wrong signal or something and the next thing I know these massive engines are firing at my back...I felt like I was strapped to a couple of Boeing 777 turbines...only much sleeker and much more powerful... The thing is...one of the first things that occured almost at the very moment of ignition was that a vast multitude of beings gathered around me and presented me with a name...and all these visions associated to this name. At that time I had no experience of this sort and no real training that could have prepared me for this so I just sort of went with the experience which lasted a very long time and will have to be the subject of another thread (although I have discussed it before). For many years I tried to remember what that name was but it was kind of long and not the kind of name you would usually hear or think of. One of the first things that hit me when I first heard Ng's name was...oh my god...that was it! That was the name! I am virtually certain of it. I have gone over it a thousand times in my mind and I am sure that was the name...
So...you tell me...what the hell is that supposed to mean? It's a lot like that with Ng...there is powerful stuff going on there and it's not all planted in logical sequential order...Now I don't presume to be Ningishzidda you understand...that would be a bit rich even for me...but I do think I have a very powerful connection to this archetype and may even have been born that way for some unknown reason. Now among his many other functions Ng is Lord of the Underworld. For all I know he saw my situation and thought to himself...this one looks ripe...this one's going for a little ride! lol...
m1thr0s
m1thr0s
12-08-2006, 10:38 PM
did you recognise anything?oh hell yes...recognized everything and everybody...and it was one hell of a tour. the whole thing set me on this whole path you know of identifying the anatomical bridge itself. Because in this vision...I saw it all...the whole technology and everything. I even had time to run various tests and confirm my observations. Upon re-entry it was all lost...in a sense...but you can't really lose that sort of thing. Much of my work has been a matter of retracing the steps which, as it turns out, amounts to a complex neurophysics that, entirely on my own, I very much doubt I would have ever had an inkling it existed...
But obviously you can't expect people to understand or agree to visions in themselves...it has to be rebuilt by the numbers. nevertheless having seen all of this in action has been enormously motivating/enlightening for me personally...many many clues went down that night...
I shoudn't talk about it too much I guess. People get the wrong ideas. Just because you get gifted with a powerful vision doesn't mean you don't know how to tie your own damn shoes you know...quite the opposite actually. It's made me a much better alchemist and pointed me in directions that have themselves born out under the toughest possible scrutiny... It's also made me fearless...I can fail 10,000 times and just come back 10,001 cuz I already know it's in there somewhere...
edit: in alchemy they say when the Dragon bites you you're as good as cooked already. To receive that bite is the hidden hope of all aspiring mystics/magicians/etc... It sets you on the path like nothing else can. I cannot just give my experience to others unfortunately, but I can certainly encourage the quest itself. Despite all the problems that it has cost me...I wouldn't have it any other way...not for one lousy second.
m1thr0s
edit: in alchemy they say when the Dragon bites you you're as good as cooked already. To receive that bite is the hidden hope of all aspiring mystics/magicians/etc... It sets you on the path like nothing else can. I cannot just give my experience to others unfortunately, but I can certainly encourage the quest itself. Despite all the problems that it has cost me...I wouldn't have it any other way...not for one lousy second.Precicely...and it's interesting that quite a number of us around here have been "bitten" already at some point...and damn hard too. That sort of experience certainly gives you a kind of fearlessness, an inextinguishable drive to push forward despite resistances and similar influences.
That is a stunning experience m1thr0s. I have heard it before, but it's a thing I'm not tired of re-visiting...
Kain
Kuroyagi
12-09-2006, 07:15 AM
I haven't really looked at Chinese linguistics yet Kuroyagi, although I am almost certain this would turn up some interesting stuff. I am very interested in the whole Dragon mythos of ancient China though and wish I knew more about the influence, or possible influence, of Sumer on Asia itself.
A breakdown of Nin - gi - sh - zidda perhaps Kuroyagi-sama if you have the time and feel so inclined? The rest of us are all very interested...Hallo, m1thr0s and Okazaki-dono: a decoding of the Ng-name in Chinese characters is a bit problematic. For one those signs are picto- and ideograms; different to the Phoenician (and Latin) system and alphabets their meaning is independent from their pronounciation. Thereby people could communicate via written characters without speaking the same language i.e. pronouncing them in a completely different way which makes much sense if you look at the immense size of the Chinese empire. Secondly Japanese has only about 50 different sounds (and Chinese about 1400 at best- where English has over 4000!- with foreign words etc.) and for that reason very many homophones. This makes it senseless or somehow dubious at least to look for similar sounding words alone (cause the characters and thereby their meaning could be utterly different- Glenn Morris does this in his books and it is a bit embarrassing cause it denounces a fundamental unfamiliarity with this culture. [Other than that his books are fun, though…]. You only have to look at Japanese poetry that doesn’t have an end-rhyme in our sense but rather counts syllables. (But theres much to research still like different system of how to write the charcters themselves, ghost-scripts and so on…)
But be that as it may it is not necessary to look for some sort of Chinese Gematria, anyway since we have the Yi Jing and the soft- hard (original for yin and yang) system of changes and mutations. This connects very much to the topic at hand. Fuxi and his sister are sometimes depicted with snake bodies- the one stone rubbing on that they hold swastikas is famous-, but there is a theory that he/she was a Janus-headed (cf. the Roman god!) moon god whose one face was black and the other white (the sun symbolism for one half came later it seems)- one of these faces was directed to heaven and one to earth- one was fixed at the back of his head so to speak: from this and the two positions (light up dark down or vice versa) in contrast with night and day appearances of the moon the bagua and consequently the 64 hexagrams can be derived. Bronzes from Shang and even earlier depict such an entity and even in Turkey an even older (7000 BC) idol that is nearly congruent in depiction to the Chinese one was found.
Does Ng also represent both moon aspects (the dark moon- new moon and the full) as the guardian or ruler of the underworld- and what of the Sumerian moon god, Sin? The moon is the body closest to earth and presides over it and over all life on it (respectively it’s the door to the underworld AND the higher spheres, since up is also down etc.)
m1thr0s
12-09-2006, 11:59 AM
Thanks for training your magnifying glass on it Kuroyagi...I sort of suspected that might be the case. I have sort of concluded that our more reliable approach is to cross-reference iconography itself and not bother too much with linguistics. It gets you into this near-impossible scenario of having to track down exactly when and where particular pronunciations of words might first have been used...who invaded who and when...who traded with who and so forth. You'd need a whole team of high powered history-linguistic experts to even make a dent in it I think...
m1thr0s
MythMath
12-09-2006, 11:59 AM
'Waxing and waning’ bigua sequence
The bigua or 'sovereign hexagrams' sequence consists of the following
12 hexagrams: 24, 19, 11, 34, 43, 1, 44, 33, 12, 20, 23, 2.
Anyone familiar with the Book of Changes will instantly see in their mind's eye
what is being referred to in that sequence, but to make it quite clear I was
inspired to make a little animation to show the cycle of these 12 'waning
and waxing hexagrams' (xiaoxigua), at two different speeds.
The one on the left is twice as fast:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/images/bigua.gifhttp://www.biroco.com/yijing/images/bigua32.gif
The sequence waxes (xi) as yang increases upwards
and wanes (xiao) as yin increases upwards.
The sequence is shown below, going from top left to bottom right:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/images/bigua12.gif
[all text and graphics from: http://www.biroco.com/yijing/sequence.htm]
__________________________________
Edit: It reminds me of Quetzal's shadow moving on the steps of the pyramid...:yes:
Aerialunar view...
MM
m1thr0s
12-09-2006, 03:45 PM
that's interesting.
There's another set of 12 hexagrams that are associated to the 12 months of the Solar year...
I haven't seen this particular arrangement.
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-09-2006, 08:42 PM
M1thr0s,
I was going through the Ng thread at OC and noticed someone had posted what they said was the Sumerian cuneform for Ningishzida.Were you ever able to verify that?
I was also wondering if anyone was able to invoke or channel Ningishzida?
I have reservations about much of the channelled material around...its often misleading and of poor quality...not to mention unverifiable in most cases.
Has anyone developed or been working on an invocation ritual for Ningishzida that you know of?
Namaste
Pagan
Pagan39
12-09-2006, 10:13 PM
I also noticed that someone claimed that a reiki symbol for Ningishzidda had been found.Does anyone know anything more on that,or know the symbol?
Namaste
Pagan
m1thr0s
12-09-2006, 10:22 PM
hey Pagan39...for me invokation is not that complicated a matter at all. I have a Twinstar invokation you can try posted at my main site...hold on and I'll get you the link: http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm
If you're not comfortable with that I would suggest to you that invokation is really just a matter of fine-tuning your natural powers of concentration, so devise something that works for you...or perhaps more accurately, for you and Ng both, reciprocally...
I have seen a few things. There are a few traditional songs and poems and things to Ng...none of it suits my artistic sensibilities though and I wouldn't trust any of it really. That's up to you of course.
I invoked Apsu one time just by writing him a little song...guess he likes my shit (I seem to have a way with Dragons)...in that instance I actually had a witness. She was just a little unnerved by the whole thing although there was no danger...he was just giving me the nod so to speak...man he's old...but that's another story...
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-09-2006, 10:37 PM
Hey M1thr0s,
I have a sore back today...read that whole thread last night in one sitting.Why did it stop in september 2005? Did it move here?
I did follow some links and read some of the traditional poems to Ng...rofl...definitely,something gets lost in translation.However I did like the reference to his long hair..a small confirmation of what I and others see.Not to mention how awesomely savage he is....
So...that cuneiform of his name doesnt work for you?
Regards
Pagan
m1thr0s
12-09-2006, 10:52 PM
Oh...the Cuneform...no, it's fine I guess. Things evolve you know? Here is Now and all of that. That seems to be my edge magickally speaking...I always work in the Now...I think these archetypes get as tired of their histories as I do...how many times can you run through the same old Ng vs Marduk bs??? It's all ancient history...Enki, all those cats...if it isn't happening right now I'm not especially concerned with it...
That's just my style I guess, but it seems to work ok for me. The Cuneform might be useful to make talismans etc...try to find a metal Ng likes...well gold obviously would be ideal. You can always work with gold leaf at not too great a cost...check your art supply houses...
Why did it stop in september 2005?that site got hacked to pieces...it's still there but I don't go there anymore. I was a moderator there for years...this site is going to wind up being way better to my way of thinking...everything takes a little time of course...
m1thr0s
Dragon
12-10-2006, 01:37 AM
[B][SIZE=3][all text and graphics from: http://www.biroco.com/yijing/sequence.htm]
great little gem of a site! Thx
~D~
m1thr0s
12-10-2006, 02:59 AM
you guys are funny...I've been talking up joel's site forever!!!
just goes to show you...people need to discover things for themselves...
m1thr0s
Lord of the Underworld eh. Sounds awfully alot like the kundalini serpent ascending through Ida and Pingala making a swirring type of 'turbine' feeling. It's quite intense. Better to go with the flow when it's really powerful. Activating it when awake can be quite disastrous because of the common tension going on here on this planet. So it's safer to get it activated when asleep or in a deep trance state.
Learning how to activate it at will would be something. When let to ascend through the whole spine it anchors the brainhemispheres together and makes them interlocked with each other instead of this rubbish fighting over this viewpoint or that viewpoint.
MythMath
12-10-2006, 07:43 PM
you guys are funny...I've been talking up joel's site forever!!!
m1thr0s
It's all good...
I got the link here in the first place...
I was exploring the shadows, as Ibisis suggested...
AF is a mighty information hub...:yes:
m1thr0s
12-10-2006, 08:16 PM
well stick around MM...I, for one, haven't even warmed up yet...
if I could just get past all this Admin stuff and just crank out content...that's what I really do best...
it's all happening though...
m1thr0s
Pagan39
12-11-2006, 05:32 PM
I didnt know where to put this...but it a fantastic site for crossreferencing most cultures with the common link being astronomy...it wanders...densely,even for me....from the zodiac of Denderah to gnostic gospels,teotihuacan,french polynesia...so in the exploration of symbols that really represent Ningishzidda I think it's a site worth bookmarking.
And particularly for me because I have an idea about eclipses and using them to invoke a particular archetype....
The address is http://www.siloam.net/
I'm looking at the Sumerian cup engraving posted, and it's interesting to note that there are four figures. Two winged spotted cats and two serpents. The serpents are entwined around the pole while the cats are offering up swords to someone or something. And not only are they winged but they have bird feet as well. Another thing I notice is it is that the two serpents are actually one...they are joined at their tails. It's really a two headed serpent.
To me this sums up the perspective of reality I hold onto currently. That is the idea that light/yang/intellect/1/siva is singular with the illusion of duality and shadow/yin/intuition/0/shakti is dualistic and truly torn and chaotic, even to the point of warring with itself.
As I ponder the meaning of the cats I am getting the idea that the cats offering swords are offered up as a symbolism for matter. We take up form in matter and use it to alter the course of things with the swords of action.
More thoughts later, maybe, as others add to the pile...
Here's a random thought:
Perhaps the pole in the center could represent the paramatman or the magician (the definition in the book of the tarot) . Intellect (the serpents) embraces him or her and the abyss/matter crowned and ready to fly offers them freely the swords enabling force to manifest.
I'd like to see an elemental breakdown of the symbol.
You know what'd I'd like to see is the symbol expanded to include three cats, where one would be just behind the pillar. Twould make a great statue...and a great excuse for me to sculpt something.
m1thr0s
12-13-2006, 10:37 PM
The "cats" are Djinn...but they provide Ng with an especially important iconographic element...the wings. They are also a symbol of Kingsmanship as the Djinn were said to stand guard at the inaugeration of Kings in ancient Sumer...they were the official "presenters" so to speak.
m1thr0s
MythMath
12-13-2006, 11:21 PM
The flyin' lions pull back the curtains and say, 'Ta Da...!'
And the serpents are 'as one' as it were (for the moment)...
I imagine birds held an important place in ancient symbology, being able to fly into the heavens. How do you propose this adds significance to NG himself? Also another question I had is where is NG in the symbol? If the cats are not a part of him, is he the serpent? The pole?
Why are the djinn depicted as cats and how did you find out they were djinn?
Apologies for all the questions but I've never seen the symbol before in a textbook so I havn't had an oppurtunity to read about the anthropology behind it (being more of a paleontologist) and I am completely unfamiliar with the Middle Eastern region's religious history.
m1thr0s
12-15-2006, 07:37 PM
In terms of sacred iconography, everything depicted in relation to the central character is always considered a vital element...not separate from that character at all.
I've seen other depictions of the Djinn...sometimes they are more bird-like, sometimes eagle-headed with men's frames and wings, there's different variations of which the spotted cats are one...sort of depends on the time-frame and the individual artist etc...
In the image we are discussing, the twin-serpents themselves are Ng...here, as elsewhere, depicted in this dual male-female form...
m1thr0s
In the image we are discussing, the twin-serpents themselves are Ng...here, as elsewhere, depicted in this dual male-female form...
Like the Ardhanarishvara?
Like the Ardhanarishvara?Exactly...the synthesis of male and female energies.
Kain
i noticed some talk about quetzalcoatl and was reminded of this bit that i once saved from a coast2coast show becuase the voice of the caller captured my interest, was a bit boring show otherwise, interview of daniel pinchbeck about his book.
anyways, listen to find out some things descendants of aztecs think about it, according to this dude anyway. may be a bit on the fluffy side for some though. :laugh:
http://www.tuubi.net/oakie/mus/quetzalcoatl.mp3
MythMath
12-17-2006, 10:29 AM
oak,
Your link didn't work for me...
Is the spelling correct...?
MM
i noticed some talk about quetzalcoatl and was reminded of this bit that i once saved from a coast2coast show becuase the voice of the caller captured my interest, was a bit boring show otherwise, interview of daniel pinchbeck about his book.
anyways, listen to find out some things descendants of aztecs think about it, according to this dude anyway. may be a bit on the fluffy side for some though. :laugh:
http://www.tuubi.net/oakie/mus/quetzalcoatl.mp3
That was really fascinating. MythMath, the link worked fine for me but here is the gist of it.
The speaker is caller who responded to the star of the show who was wondering what the native peoples of Central America thought of some sort of astrological topic that wasn't included in detail. The caller had a latino accent and introduced himself as initiated priest of Quetzalcoatl, he says his duties involve studies of Quetzalcoatl.
He said that Quetzalcoatl is the twin of the sun and he is the morning and evening star. In 2004, he said, Quetzalcoatl arrived in the Venus transit, and in 2012 he will arrive again. He said in 2012 there will be the realization that we are all one. Until then he said it is important that we just make it until 2012.
He also said this all coincides with the Aztec calendar and was explaining some technical Aztec terms that I don't recall right now.
On top of that, while I do certainly believe that ancient people were very advanced and even knew stuff that we don't understand, I can't really just accept (without some kind of actual ancient text to read for myself) that Sumerians knew a thing about DNA splicing. Everything I've ever read on the subject seems to have already been interpreted by people and frankly, I don't trust those people to not be nutcases. I want to get to the original storyline without all the talk of modern science so I can decide for myself. I have yet though to find a site that isn't either completely over my head or wasn't written by people I would be inclined to think are crazy.
Yes I agree with Lucifer, it is not about splicing it is about expansion and arousal I feel.
bacci
m1thr0s
04-12-2007, 01:19 AM
well, Ningishzidda isn't just a charismatic character though...He/She represents a lost alchemical tradition and that's the whole point of the DNA connection...or whatever...allusions to this, I don't care. With Lucifer it's really all about the character himself and how this plays out in the world...with Ng it's actually more about a missing link in Earth itself...a path that humankind was on that somehow got waylaid...or did it? That's the whole intrigue surrounding Ng really...the idea that it's been there all along...inching its way forward without regard to names at all...serpents don't really have that much use for them anyhow...
m1thr0s
I see m1thr0s, very interesting. Serpents don't have a use for names? Why is that? No ears?
I seem to misplace most of the insights I have about Ningishzidda, but here's an interesting occasionally two-headed serpent god of the underworld I'd never heard of until tonight, from Egypt. I was only aware of Wadjet up until now:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nehebkau.htm
"Nehebkau (Nehebu-Kau, Nehebkhau), 'He Who Unites the Kas', was a benevolent snake god who the Egyptians believed was one of the original primeval gods. He was linked to the sun god, swimming around in the primeval waters before creation, then bound to the sun god when time began. He was a god of protection who protected the pharaoh and all Egyptians, both in life and in the afterlife.
[...]
He was depicted in the form of a snake with arms and legs, occasionally with wings. He is sometimes shown holding containers of food in his hands, in offering to the deceased. Less often, he is shown as a two headed snake, with a head at each end of the reptilian body."
[...]
In life, Nehebkau was invoked by the people to protect them from and cure them of venomous bites. The Egyptians believed that he swallowed seven cobras, using them for his magical power."
Also:
Wikipedia Article on Nehebkau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehebkau)
_____________________________________________
I'm looking at the seal of Ningishzidda on the top of the thread and it appears a little different from the fragments I've seen. It looks to me like the cats have horns in the original unedited fragments, and not chef hats. I really can't tell though. What is the proper symbolism? Horns or hats?
Great stuff m1thr0s (referring to the initial post). These are matters I myself are deeply interested in. The Caduceus, Satan, Serpent, DNA link is very interesting...
m1thr0s
05-13-2007, 09:53 PM
Ng hit me like a bolt of lightning deviadah...my secret genius, cool and dark and strong beyond all mortal comprehension. Even now I have no idea from whence it comes to where it goes but the pattern of its steady hand has finally become apparent to me.
yeah...Ningishzidda...words fail me on this dark and terrible lord...
m1thr0s
Well that's what comic books are for.
"The book’s Title page, pictured below, shows the Evil Amon-Thoth, transformed into a huge snake monster, devouring one of his fellow acolytes in a dark alley of “Memphia, at the edge of the cruel Stygian desert.” :mooh:
http://images17.fotki.com/v13/photos/1/178468/3637296/thoth02a-vi.jpg
"There may be a connection between Ningishzidda and Nu Kua from Chinese origin. Nu Kua is the creation goddess from Chinese lore...part Dragon part Human in appearance, she is specifically attributed with having introduced human beings into the world following a great war between her husband (Pan Ku) and rival gods. Pan Ku was ultimately slain and his body became the earth and firmament which Nu Kua subsequently repaired and went to work creating humanity. There is a bit of a melding between the Apsu/Tiamat storyline and the Ningishzidda tale but it's worth mentioning at least for anyone interested in these kinds of cross-references...I've been thinking about this today so thought I'd include it here...
Nu Kua is presently regarded as being responsible for bringing the I Ching into manifestation, meaning that it is now thought that the I Ching may have originated much earlier than previously thought which would put it squarely in her time frame. The I Ching parallels the DNA code itself in no small way since its 64 binary hexagrams exactly correspond to the 64 binary templates of the DNA/RNA codes. Several good books have been published of late outlining the stark similarities between genetic code and the I Ching and there are even some who have suggested that genetic science may be a recovered science that was actually known in very ancient times, though it is difficult to say in what way it was understood exactly (it may have been more of an esoteric than a physical science for instance). In any case, Nu Kua can be said to link to genetic science via the I Ching so the plot thickens with respect to her other apparent similarities to Ningishzidda..."
Ok so that's where the Tree Fields 001 mirror name comes from!? Here I thought it was just a reference to the Greek Pan, not an ocean dragon's husband. Well that's weird.
What are any of your thoughts on sacrifices to the gods. It's mentioned several times in the Mythology book I'm reading that the gods complained when humanity was nearly destroyed because they were no longer getting any sacrifices in the form of burning food.
Given the undeniable cyclical nature of the stories throughout the world, even across continents, would you say it's more likely these events are recurring and similar to one another, or merely a retelling of one great event at the dawn of civilization?
As a side note, here's some great pictures of Quetzelcoatl similar in appearance to the Mushushu dragons.
m1thr0s
05-17-2007, 02:46 PM
There is exactly no historical evidence anywhere on earth to suggest that Ningishzidda ever required human sacrifice. Quite the opposite, Ng was a defiant supporter of humankind to such an extent that it ran him into conflicts with the more egocentric of the Annunaki clan.
This was almost certainly something that the priests themselves concocted as their power and authority began to wane. In the end, Ng stripped them of either and they were tossed to the winds of ruin.
Ningishzidda is no respector of persons, but he/she has always been an adamant supported of humakind itself.
m1thr0s
There is exactly no historical evidence anywhere on earth to suggest that Ningishzidda ever required human sacrifice. Quite the opposite, Ng was a defiant supporter of humankind to such an extent that it ran him into conflicts with the more egocentric of the Annunaki clan.
This was almost certainly something that the priests themselves concocted as their power and authority began to wane. In the end, Ng stripped them of either and they were tossed to the winds of ruin.
Ningishzidda is no respector of persons, but he/she has always been an adamant supported of humakind itself.
m1thr0s
...
...I meant like...people food, maybe nuts or something...not human death offerings. lol XD
The reason I ask is, like....well native americans, like say the Hopi, they offer kachinas food like corn pollen. Or in Buddhism they'll offer incense and a bowl of rice. Or in Japan they'll put food at the base of trees (who are regarded as kami)
So I was wondering if there was any magickal purpose or legitimate power to any of that.
"Fu Hsi taught his subjects to cook, to fish with nets, and to hunt with weapons made of iron. He instituted marriage and offered the first open air sacrifices to heaven."
- Wikipedia
But on another note - do you know how Ningishzidda is properly pronounced phonetically?
m1thr0s
05-17-2007, 08:09 PM
ahhh, I see. These images are all of Quetzlcotl to whom human sacrifices were routinely made (in the latter empire at least) so I assumed you were referring to this...
m1thr0s
I picked up a stack of books from the library about a foot high this evening. It's very difficult to find anything on Ningishzidda. I went through at least two dozen books with no reference at all to Ningishzidda, though in the newer translations he is mentioned as a twin form. (also Mithras - it appears the diety that nearly overcame Christianity at one point in history has been deliberately stricken off the record as recently as the 1970's in very thick books.)
"Gishzida (sometimes pronounced Gizzida, also called Nin-gishzida) -- 'trusty timber', Sumerian god paired with Dumuzi, son of Ninazu, consort of Belili, doorkeeper of Anu. Cult centre: Gishbanda, between Lagash and Ur. Symbol: horned snake."
The Oxford World's Classics: Myths from Mesopotamia Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh And Others by Stephanie Dalley written in 1989 and revised in 2000.
I transcribe this because it contradicts several of the sources listed in the initial post, some who I recall list Lagash as the central place of worship, not Gishbanda.The book Sumer: The Dawn of Art by Andre Parrot 1961, paints an interesting picture of the rivalry between Ningishzidda and unknown desecrators.
"The Neo-Sumerian period is outstanding not only for its architecture, but also for its sculpture. In this field Lagash dominated the whole region, and even the whole century, with its production as remarkable for its quantity as for its quality. We owe it almost entirely to a single man, that enigmatic personage Gudea. He ruled for at least fiften years, perhaps longer, but either declined the title of king or was for some reason debarred from assuming it; instead he contented himself with the position of patesi, a high-ranking official exercising both religious and political functions, but standing below the highest echelon in the hierarchy of the state. He made of Lagash an unrivalled cultural centre. Palaces, temples and works of public utility were filled with objects of art, and in particular with statues of Gudea himself. Over thirty of these statues are now known to exist, most of them in museums, a few in private collections; they form the most impressive body of sculpture created at the behest of a single man, in a single place, that is to be found in the whole history of art.
The Louvre is justly proud of its fine series of Gudea figures,. These beatifully executed works in diorite and dolerite - - stone so hard as to present a serious challenge to the skill of even the ablest sculptore -- at once convey an impression of majestic serenity and breathe a religious fervour seld, if ever, expressed with so much power and simplicity.
Gudea always had himself portrayed with clasped hands entering the presence of the god. For all the damage they did to these sculpturs, their ancient desecrators failed to rob them of their numinous power, a power their creators had both the intention and the capacity to express. The black or greenish blue stone in which they are carve has preserved an extraordinary density adding to their monumental effect. Gudea is dressed with monkish simplicity: a straight-falling robe, leaving the right shoulder and arm bare; a few folds under the armpit, others on the left forearm; a narrow border to the robe;no more. Plain material, unadorned, unembroidered. The feet are massive, but the hands are wonderfully delicate, with tapering fingers and finely chiselled nails.
Many of these statues have been decapitated, but the heads of several have been retrieved. The one at the first called the 'Turbaned Head' (it was not then known whom it represented, is unquestionably a portrait of Gudea. Paradoxically enough, it is a likeness all the more convincing for the mutilation it has suffered. With its staring eyes, high cheek-bones, undershot jaw and sharply defined mouth, this is the face of a self-willed ruler, in the prime of life, who insists that his orders are obeyed. What the orders were is revealed by the inscriptions which often overflow the tablets, and sometimes spread across the front of his robe or run round it. These are especially prominent in the two seated Gudeas, one with the plan of a building engraved on a tablet in his lap, the other about to set to work with stylus and ruler, instruments of the architect. Only once, instead of clasping his hands, is Gudea shown holding to his breast the vase from which the waters of fertility flow: a reminder of the benefits he has conferred on his country, through the intermediary of course of the deities he invokes, in particular Ningirsu, the city god, Ningizzida, his tutelary god, and Bau and Gatumdug, two female divinities.
[...]
On a stele in Berlin, we see Gudea, bare-headed and deferent, following behind Ningizzida, recognizable by the dragon heads rising from his shoulder. The god holds the wrist of his protege with a grip so firm that he seems about to drag him by force towards a higher deity, whose body, unfortunately, is so badly disfigured as to make identification very much a matter of guess-work. Streams of water pouring down in front of him certainly suggest Enki, the water god, but Ningirsu, the 'nourisher of the fields,' could also have been thus represented. What remains of the iconography of the other participants shows them all to be bearded. Dressed in long flounced robes leaving the shoulder bare, they wear the horned crown indicative of high rank: impassive celebrants steeped in self importance, yet at the same time full of deference for the decisions to be made by the supreme court of the gods. The divine hierarchy called for strict discipline, and this is obtained at every level. Yet how characteristic it is of human nature that the Neo-Sumerians should have besought the favour of their omnipotent gods through the intercession of female divinities! For it is a goddess, in the great majority of the cases, who pleads for the supplicant. And sometimes, when a particular request has to be made in the course of a presentation, it is the goddess who acts as intermediary, raising her hands in a gesture which appears to us as one of supplication rather than of benediction."
I was also curious about something referred to several times in the Oxford book as the Fox Star, which is not Sirius.
"shelebu "The Fox"; Ursae Maioris (?)Erra, a god assimilated into Nergal, listed as "deity of war, hunting and plague. Etymology 'scorched (earth' probably incorrect. Assimilated with Nergal and Gerra. Temple Emeslam in the city of Kutha. Epithet Engidudu 'lord who prowls by night"
(Gerra or Gibil is a fire god.)
A chart of the position of Ursae Maioris, just under constellation Draco, curiously enough:
http://www.astrofilitrentini.it/mat/costell/uma_e.html
Below are the images of the Gudea statues and the one of Ningishzidda leading Gudea to the unknown deity.
Continued in the section on Gudea, next to the photograph of the well known libation goblet of Ningishzidda and the cover of the lamp.
"In Pre-Sargonid times, the worshipper had been content to lay a statuette (with which he identified with himself) at the foot of the god's throne. Now he expected to be presented in person to his god and to make his prayer directly. True, he was escorted by intercessors, but the piety had certainly grown bolder.
The representation of the gods in human form, though now the rule, did not altogether exclude the use of symbolic figures. (To) this conservative spirit we owe several fine pieces of work, such as the human-headed bulls mentioned above, sculptured in the round and some equally fine lion-muzzles, executed in more or less high relief, which once adorned a basin. [...] Yet what we find here, still alive, are the old traditions of relief carving on stone vessels, and this is confirmed by the libation vase illustrated here, bearing Gudea's name. Its decoration is wholly symbolic, two snakes, twined round a pole, rise up to the lip of the vase, as if to drink the liquid poured from it, while two winged dragons stand guard behind them, holding in their front paws a staff with a loop at the top. These monsters must have inspired the most salutary awe, for they combine several dangerous animals in one; the eagle contributes its wings and talons, the snake its head, the panther its body, and the scorpion its poison-charged tail. This composite beast has the divine prerogatives: witness its horned crown. There can be no room for doubt: this is the animal attribute of the god Ningizzida, and as such protects Gudea, while ensuring the fertility of his dominions through the twining snake accompanying it. Here we have the origin of the caduceus, which through the ages has retained its virtue as a beneficent emblem.
This libation vase has much in common with the cover of a lamp on which we again find two snakes so closely interlocked that we can hardly tell them apart. In trying to follow their meanders, we realize that a third snake, (whose head is missing) is included. The pattern of their bodies, beautifully conceived and executed, forms a network of loose meshes strong enough to stand any strain. No stone could better lend itself to these effects than this greenish blue steatite."
From Sumer: The Dawn of Art by Andre Parrot
Here is the lamp artifact of Ningishzidda mentioned above, along with a mace in the shape of a lioness head.
467
Great stuff Naomi, thanks for sharing!
Kain
Sure Kain; glad to be of service - see what happens when I pay my library fines? :tnerd:
Here's some excerpts from Kingship And The Gods: A Study of Ancient Near Eastern Religion as the Integration of Society and Nature by Henri Frankfort. Frankfort was a expert historian and archaeologist who worked both in Egypt and Mesopotamia. He was based out of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago.
From Chapter 17, The Making Of A King, The Choice Of The Gods
"We do not know by what means the gods conveyed whom they had chosen for the throne. Omens, dreams, and pragmatic proof of success were accepted at different times as indications of their choice. The texts use many different phrases instead of describing a formal ritual of divine election as is often thought. They name gods with whom, the new ruler stood in a particularly close relationship, and these are described as concurring explicitly with the choice of the assembly by some gracious act. For instance, Eannatum, an Early Dynastic ruler of Lagash, called himself one "whose name was called to mind by Enlil, endowed with strength by Ningirsu; envisaged by Nanshe in (her) heart, truly and rightly suckled by Ninhursaga;* named by Inanna."21 But on another brick of the same Eannatum these actions are divided somewhat differently among the various deities. He is a ruler "endowed with strength by Enlil; truly and rightly suckled by Ninhursaga; whose name was called to mind by Ningirsu; envisaged by Nanshe in (her) heart."22 Gudea calls himself:
Shepherd envisaged by Ningirsu in (his) heart; steadfastly regarded by Nanshe, endowed with strength by Nindar; the man described (?) by Baba; child borne by Garumdug; endowed with dignity and the sublime scepter by Ig-alima; well provided with the breath of life by Dunshagar; he whom Ningiszida his god has made to appear in the assembly with (proudly) raised head. 23
The later texts continue to use similar expressions, but they also introduce others. 24 The king was, as before, said to have been singled out by a god's glance: "When Shamash....with radiant face had joyfully looked upon me---me, his favorite shepherd Hammurabi."25 Or in a text of Shalmaneser III of Assyria: "When the great lord Assur, in the steadfastness of his heart, had singled me out by his dazzling gaze." 26 Or in Esarhaddon's phrase: "In the gladness of their hearts the gods, lifting their eyes to me, had chosen me to be truly and rightly king" 27
Sometimes the king is said to have been predestined to rule, and one meets phrases which recall the Egyptian view of kingship but which sound almost like mockery when applied to rulers so harassed by fear of the gods' changing favor. Assurbanipal stated of himself: "Assur and Sin have pronounced (my) name for rulership since time immemorial.Chapter 18, The Service of the Gods, The Molding Of The First Brick.
[...]"On Early Dynastic seals a man is shown measuring a plano-convex brick against a rod held by an enthroned deity [...] Down to late Assyrian time the rulers are depicted in this position, either on stelae 41 or in small bronze figures 42 buried in the foundations of the temples they rebuilt. For the molding of the first brick was always carried out by the king in person. As an example of the texts of the first millennium B.C. we may quote Nabopolasr: "I bent my neck for Marduk, my lord; and girding up the robes of my royalty, I carried bricks and clay upon my head." 42
The ceremony of making the first brick is described well by Gudea. His text betrays a lyricism which should warn us that the crowning scene of the rites entailed more than the display of a brick of dried mud to the people and the rays of the sun. He had passed the preceding night in the temple, thus protecting himself against a possible pollution by the profane and, at the same time, making himself available if the gods wished to communicate with him once more in his dreams. In the morning "The pure head-pad, the sacred mold, he.....He went with uplifted head. The god Lugal-kur-dub went before him; the god Ig-alima followed him. Ningiszida, his (personal) god, held him by the hand."44
From Chapter 20 The Gods of Mesopotamia:
"Summer in Mesopotamia is a burden hardly to be borne. Vegetation withers, the hot dust hurts eyes and lungs, and men and beasts, losing resilience, submit, dazed to the protracted scourge. In such a country the notion of creation is not connected with the sun. The generative force of nature resides in the earth. For even water is of the earth; the sky is too rarely clouded, too cruel during the five exhausting months for the blessing of moisture to be associated with it. Water belongs to the wells and ditches of the earth; and in spring Ningirsu brings it down in black clouds from the mountains. 15
One single rhythm flows through the life of nature and of man, quickening when the autumn rains bring relief, slowing down somewhat under the severities of winter, expanding marvelously in the brief enchanting spell of spring. The gods who are in nature must partake of this movement of ebb and flow, and a remarkable number of them were believed to suffer imprisonment or injury. This applies first and foremost to the gods in whom natural forces were personified. These bore Sumerian names which are mostly epithets; and a study of their iconography, and of the conditions in which their monuments are distributed through the ruins, shows that a single conception underlies the figures of Ninurta, or Ningirsu, Ninazu, Ningiszida, Tammuz, Tishpak, Abu and several others. 16 These gods are not altogether without disctinctive features, but their particularities are best explained as a result of differentiation. It is only to be expected that different aspects of the basic conception would be emphasized in certain localities at the expense of others, so that different cities ultimately worshiped related but not identical gods. Yet the awareness of their basic identity was still alive in Akkadian times, as is proved by the promiscuous use of their attributes in the pictorial art of the period; and the equations of gods with one another, which we find in Assyrian lists like "An-Anum" and which are usuaully explained as the product of syncretism, may very well be due, in many cases, to a clear realization that a single divinity was indicated by the several names."
fr.novumorganum
06-07-2007, 10:38 AM
excellent research there NC. for my money, nothing more fun that digging through the stacks....but of course i'm an academic geek so...
Thanks novumorganum, yes its quite fun, It's also very important to me to learn about this stuff as it is relevant to what is presently occurring.
I've been reading some more in this Kingship and the Gods book, and I found another passage that relates to this following paragraph mentioned earlier, namely:
a single conception underlies the figures of Ninurta, or Ningirsu, Ninazu, Ningiszida, Tammuz, Tishpak, Abu and several others. It seems clear to me that Ningirsu is merely another function or aspect of Ningishzidda, though his form is not of a serpent merely, but as the winged lion eagle, like the ones found on the goblet mentioned earlier out of the book Sumer: The Dawn of Art.
For the record:
"Ningirsu: At Sumero-Babylonian god of rain, irrigation, and fertility; probably an earlier form on Ninurta (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/ninurta.html). He was the patron deity of the ancient Sumerian city of Girsu (Lagash) where king Guda built a temple for him called the Eninnu. He had a field here where all sorts of plants flourished. He is a son of Enlil (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/enlil.html) and a she-goat, and his consort is Baba (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baba.html). His name means "Lord of Girsu", and his symbol is the lion-headed eagle.""Ningirsu." Encyclopedia Mythica from Encyclopedia Mythica Online.
<http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/ningirsu.html (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29)>
[Accessed June 09, 2007].
From Chapter 18, Government - Administration of the Realm
"The gods communicated with the king most directly in dreams. One Assyrian text relates how a crown prince had monstrous dreams, the meaning of which remains obscure to us.14 But a clear account of dreams which served as a means of communication between gods and the king is preserved by Gudea of Lagash. 15 We have described how the conveyed to Gudea that Eninnu, the temple of Ningirsu, should be rebuilt.* Gudea brought sacrifices, and during the night Ningirsu (whom Gudea called his "king") appeared in his dream:
And the lord Ningirsu--when Gudea saw his king
in the middle of the night --
Spoke to him concerning the building of his house.
Upon Eninnu, the powers of which are great, he made
him look.
Gudea acted in a significant manner on the revelation of Ningirsu's wishes; there was no joy or pride at being honored by a direct communication from the god. His one dominant emotion, here as in similar texts, was fear that he might misunderstand the message and be the cause of his lord's displeasure. In his perplexity he decided to ask advice from the goddess Nanshe:
Gudea, his heart beclouded,
Was pondering the command:
Go to, I must tell it to her. Go to, I must tell it to her!
May she stand by me in these things!
I am a shepherd; the princeliness of a shepherd has been entrusted to me;
(Yet) I do not know the innermost (meaning) of that which
the middle of the night brought me;
I must take my dream to my mother.
Gudea then sailed up a canal through his city-state of Lagash first past another sanctuary of Ningirsu and then ppast one belonging to the goddess Gatumdug. In both he offered sacrifice and prayd for assistance. Arrived at his destination, he unfolded to the goddess Nanshe the terrifying vision at which the previous phrases had only hinted.
In the dream, the first man-- he was boundless like the heaven,
Wasboundless like the earth.
According to his head and crown he was a god,
According to his wings he was the divine Imdugud bird,
According to his lower parts (?) he was a flood wave.
Lions were lying to his right and left.
He commanded me to build his house.
I did not know what exactly he had in mind.
Daylight rose for me upon the horizon,
And the first woman---whoever she may or may not have been--
Coming out ahead, prepared a razed (building) plot.
She held a stylus of gold in her hand;
She placed a clay tablet with the stars of heaven (on it)
on (her) knee
And consulted it.
The next - a warrior - wore horns (?).
He (she) held a tablet of lapis lazuli
And began to set down on it the plan of a house.
Before me stood a silver basket;
A brick mold of silver had been prepared (in a square),
And a typical brick had been put in the mold for me,
Into the....trough standing before me
A birdman was constantly pourind clear water,
And a donkey stallion on the right of my king
Continued to paw the ground for me.
The goddess Nanshe explained the dream, identifying the figures as Ningirsu and other deities, and the stallion pawing the ground as Gudea impatient to start the work required of him. Moreover, she added, significant advice: Although Gudea is preparing to honor Ningirsu by rebuilding his temple, he will do well to pacify the god. He should construct a new war chariot and offer it-- complete with a team of donkey stallions, quivers and a standard--while Ningirsu's beloved drum is being sounded. When these gifts are offered "to the gift-loving warrior, thy master, the lord Ningirsu....,he will accept from thee (even) thy softly spoken demand as if it were one loudly spoken. The umbrageous heart of the lord, of Ningirsu, the son of Enlil, will be soothed (and friendly) toward thee; and he will reveal to thee the plan of his house." Nanshe's advice reveals again the fear which was so strong an element in Mesopotamian, as it was in Hebrew, religiosity; the mysterium tremendum outbalanced the mysterium fascinosum when the Mesopotamian confronted his gods.
Gudea, on his return to Lagash, acted on the advice of the goddess. He made the gifts, and yet doubts remained. Again he sacrificed, burned aromatic herbs and wood, and addressed Ningirsu:
My king Ningirsu--lord of the awesomely rising waters,
Trusty lord, seed spawned by the Great Mountain (Enlil),
Hero who hast no superior (?)--
Ningirsu, thy house I shall build for thee;
But I have not my specific orders.
O warrior, thou has announced what (will be) seemly;
But, O son of Enlil, Lord Ningirsu,
I do not yet fully understand it.
The answer came in a dream:
For the second time to the sleeper, to the sleeper,
He (appeared) standing at (his) head, prodding him with
a sword.
The god first revealed himself in a series of impressive and terrifying epithets. Then he promised Gudea a return of the intercepted flood waters of the Tigris as soon as work on the temple was begun.
When, O trusty shepherd Gudea, thou shalt have started for me (work) on the Eninnu, my royal
abode,
I will call up in heaven a humid wind.
It shall bring thee abundance from on high
And the country shall spread its hands upon riches in thy time.
Prosperity shall accompany the laying of the foundations of my house.
All the great fields will bear for thee;
Dikes and canals will swell for thee.
Where the water is not wont to rise,
To high ground it will rise for thee.
Oil will be poured abundantly in Sumer in thy time.
Good weight of wool will be given in thy time.
Then follows a list of materials from which the temple is to be built. Hence Gudea could call the people together to start the work.
Gude's detailed description of the preliminaries to his building operation forms a parallel to the Assyrian letters which we quoted above. The Mesopotamian ruler was obliged to interpret the will of the gods, his masters. But no duty could be more exacting, and the risks were immense. For, while it was difficult to avoid misunderstanding the commands, mistakes brought down the calamity of divine anger upon the ruler and his people. In the Assyrian letters we watch a large body of officials laboring, in co-operation with their king, to elucidate the gods intentions. In Gudea's text we meet a simpler situation: the king is shown, striving, with endless patience, devotion and humility, by prayer and by cajoling, to obtain the divine guidance without which all his efforts were bound to miscarry."
Kingship And The Gods: A Study of Ancient Near Eastern Religion as the Integration of Society and Nature by Henri Frankfort
m1thr0s
06-10-2007, 12:25 AM
One can sense from all of this I think how much nature itself has changed over time...how our relationship to the gods was at one time more real than, say, television and movies might be today...real enough to be a problem that had to be dealt with excercising utmost care and wit. Not like today, where for the most part these things have come and gone and we are left with neither guide nor guardian worth much of anything at all...
m1thr0s
So m1thr0s, what about 2012... will Ningishzidda become the ruling deity on Earth? How would you interpret this? Allegory, physical manifestation or collective psychic upheaval?
By the way great stuff NC.
m1thr0s
06-10-2007, 03:17 PM
yeah, you know, that prediction caught me totally off-guard. I have only known about this for maybe a couple of years or so...If I were to guess, I would probably guess that some sort of physical manifestation is in the works. It may even be rooted in Abrahadabra which, as it turns out, comprises an alchemical logic finely attuned to genetics science itself...so who knows...this might even be the key to that physical manifestation!
m1thr0s
It should be remembered when examining all of this that while the symbolism of the serpent in Genesis is true to its Hebrew origins, the name (or term) Satan never actually appears in the original text. This is a Christian association that was added on much later... ...but serpentine symbolism is much older than Christianity itself and has almost universally been a symbolism depicting the healing arts & sciences in one fashion or another, so it was a risky business perpetrating this intense negativity under this particular iconography, virtually guaranteed to backfire somewhere down the line...
The quote above is from the initial post and I have myself written a great deal on this topic which I would like to add to this, already, solid thread! When I say topic I refeer of course to serpentine symbolism, although Ningishzidda is fairly new to me I feel there is little I can add there that has not already been said or can be found in the links m1thr0s, and others, have provided. Also sorry if some stuff gets repeated, but this is a stream of facts that are somewhat linked... enjoy!
H.P. Blavatsky writes in her book Isis Unveiled that
“before our globe had become egg-shaped or round it was a long trail of cosmic dust or fire-mist, moving and writhing like a serpent. This, say the explanations, was the Spirit of God moving in the chaos until its breath had incubated the cosmic matter and made it assume the annular shape of a serpent with its tail in its mouth - emblem of eternity in its spiritual and of our world physical sense.”
The serpent is an ancient symbol of wisdom and transformation and can be found represented in most religions and cultures in some form or another, often of a cosmic nature. It’s an important and positive symbol and yet the reputation the serpent has received in the collective mind is that of temptation and evil often connected with Satan (and then I refeer to Satan in its negative sense as viewed by the normal masses).
Those opposed to Freemasonry often raises the point that the use of the serpent in their ceremonial dress is proof of worshipping the devil, but the serpent featured on the belt-hook of Masonic aprons is not at all a big part of Masonic symbolism and ritual, and even if it where it would have more to do with wisdom than evil.
One certain originator of this negative view of the serpent is without a doubt an event that, at least metaphorically, took place in the Garden of Eden. Manly P. Hall points out in his The Secret Teachings of All Ages:
“How the serpent came to be in the garden of the Lord after God had declared that all creatures which He had made during the six days of creation were good has not been satisfactorily answered by the interpreters of the Scriptures.”
The Gnostics didn’t think it strange to see a serpent in the Garden of Eden since, in fact, it was a good creature. They viewed that the serpent tried to help free Adam and Eve from their bonds because when they ate from the Forbidden Fruit they would see what God didn’t want them to see; that he actually was a false god, or Demiurge.
Adam and Eve’s rebellion led to expulsion from Paradise into a world of sufferings. A guardian prevented them from returning to eat from the Forbidden Fruit and, according to the Gnostics, attain immortality and become free from all worldly bonds, where one is greater than the Demiurge. It’s no wonder that the Gnostics were deemed heretic!
In the Orphic Mysteries there is an egg surrounded by a serpent. This signifies the cosmos encircled by a fiery creative spirit. The egg, apart from the cosmos, also represents the soul of the philosopher and the serpent the Mysteries. When initiation takes place the shell of the egg is broken and the man emerges from the embryonic state of physical existence and this of course ties in with the symbolisms of the Masonic initiation where one comes from the dark into the light.
In ancient Egyptian mythology the sun god Amun-Ra emerged from the water in the shape of a serpent and inseminated the Kneph, or cosmic egg, thus creating the world. H.P. Blavatsky, again in Isis Unveiled, that
“before our globe had become egg-shaped or round it was a long trail of cosmic dust or fire-mist, moving and writhing like a serpent. This, say the explanations, was the Spirit of God moving in the chaos until its breath had incubated the cosmic matter and made it assume the annular shape of a serpent with its tail in its mouth - emblem of eternity in its spiritual and of our world physical sense.”
In Greek mythology the symbol of a serpent biting its own tail signifies the unending cycle of nature. This is known as the Ouroboros and often resembles either a 0 or an 8 (for related thread go HERE (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1425)). One of the most ancient representations of the Ouroboros can be found on a bronze disc from Benin. Jean Chevalier and Alain Gheerbrant describes it in their book Dictionary of Symbols as:
“doubtless the oldest African imago mundi, where its sinuous figure, associating opposites, encircles the primordial oceans in the middle of which floats the square of the earth below.”
Although the serpent is not necessarily always single, or serpent-like, sometimes it’s doubled, two serpents entwined or next to each other, other times it possesses wings, arms or legs. The serpent with wings is also seen as a dragon, which is a union of two opposing principles since it lives in water and spits fire. Jeremy Narby writes in his interesting, but disputed, book The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the origins of knowledge:
“Quetzalcoatl, the Aztecs’ plumed serpent, is not a real animal either. In living nature snakes do not have arms or legs, and even less wings or feathers. A flying serpent is a contradiction in terms, a paradox, like a speaking mute. This is confirmed by the double etymology of the word -coatl, which means both serpent and twin.”
“As the creator of life, the cosmic serpent is a master of metamorphosis. In the myths of the world where it plays a central part, it creates by transforming itself; it changes while remaining the same So it is understandable that is should be represented differently at the same time.”
In the serpents physical attributes we can easily see the symbol of the male from its phallic shape and also its female quality when it sheds its skin in a regenerative fashion. Here again we find a duality, but a duality that leads towards unity. This is most obvious in the Ouroboros where the serpent, tail in mouth, represent sexual union with itself that forms an androgynous image.
In alchemy and medicine, which both aims to either transform, regenerate or heal, we find all the qualities that the serpent represents. Therefore it is portrayed in two of the most famous ancient symbols of these sciences: the Caduceus of Hermes and the Staff of Asclepius.
In astrology the serpent is featured as the 13th sign of the zodiac known as Ophiuchus Serpentarius (or Ophiuchusm), the Serpent Holder, which lies between Sagittarius and Libra (although I am not sure since the two sources I have contradict each other) Plato called this 13th sign the God of the Underworld and later the Christians of the mediaeval ages changed it into the figure of St. Paul holding a viper before abandoning it altogether.
The constellation of the Serpent Holder is the only sign of the Zodiac which is linked to a real man that lived in ancient Egypt around the 27th century B.C.E., a one Imhotep. The attributes of Imhotep can also be found in the Biblical Hebrew Joseph, son of Jacob. Imhotep is credited with many accomplishments including the knowledge and use of medicine. It’s said that Imhotep brought the art of healing to mankind. The symbol of a serpent was used to represent Imhotep.
In the 16th century this 13th constellation was called Alpheichius, God of Invocation, named after Asclepius who was a skilled physician, and similar to Imhotep, who practised in Greece around 1200 B.C.E. and described in Homer’s Iliad. If he truly existed no one knows but regardless he, through myth and legend, became part of the Greek family of gods as the God of Healing and the son of Apollo and the nymph Coronis. He had several daughters of which Meditrina, Hygeia and Panacea all became symbols of medicine, hygiene and healing.
Rationalism and patriarchy began to be established around the 5th century B.C.E and myths were modified. For instance Zeus who originally was represented as a serpent now defeats the serpent monster Typhon with the aid of his daughter Athene (Reason). This act guaranteed the reign of the patriarchal gods of Olympus and at the same time he brings back Asclepius to life, after having killed him with a lightning bolt, and presents him with the serpent wrapped around a staff.
It’s believed that Hippocrates, a great doctor of antiquity, was a descendant of Asclepius and the oath, which bears his name, was sworn in the names of Apollo, Asclepius and Panacea.
A cult formed from Asclepius and became very popular during the 300s B.C.E. The Asclepions, centres where priests cured the sick, became important in Greek society. The worship of Asclepius spread to Rome, his name changed to the Latin Aesculapius, and continued to the late as the 6th century.
Since ancient times there have been columns, trees and staffs with serpents climbing or twirling around them and throughout the ages it has been the image of the art of healing and not evil. The famous Staff of Asclepius with a single serpent wrapped around it possibly became a symbol of medicine and healing because infections by parasitic worms were common. The filarial worm Dracunculus medinensis crawled around the victim’s body, just under the skin and the physicians treated this infection by cutting a slit in the patient’s skin just in front of the worm’s path. As the worm crawled out the cut the physician carefully wound the pest around a stick until the entire animal had been removed resulting in the symbol of a worm, serpent, around a stick to advertise this service.
The Staff of Asclepius have often been confused with the Caduceus, or Staff of Hermes, and although the former is clearly a symbol of medicine and healing the latter has often taken on this role in the collective mind. The Encyclopaedia Britannica clearly states that the Staff of Asclepius is the only true symbol of medicine. It also says that the Caduceus is
“without medical reference since it represents the magic wand of Hermes, or Mercury, the messenger of the gods and the patron of trade.”
Modern pharmacies probably began using the serpent as a symbol for their business because they sold the antidote to snake venom.
In a study conducted by Walter J. Friedlander of the use of these two staffs in logos and insignias in American health and medicine organizations he found that the Staff of Asclepius was a more common symbol for organizations related to health or medicine and the Caduceus for commercial organizations.
The reason commercial organizations favour the Caduceus before the Staff of Asclepius as their symbol/logo could be, according to Friedlander, because the former is a more symmetrical and pleasing symbol to the eye thus making it a greater tool for marketing. Or could it be because Hermes was the God of, amongst many things, commerce and theft?
The Greek Hermes, the ancient Egyptian god Thoth, the Phoenician Taaut and the Roman god Mercury are all the same entity each one having a magic staff wrapped by two serpents. Greek mythology tells us of the origin of this staff, best known as the Caduceus, with the tale of how Tiresias found two snakes copulating. He separated them by sticking his staff between them and was immediately turned into a woman for seven years until he was able to repeat his action and changed back.
The Caduceus can be, in the words of David William Hauck in his excellent book The Emerald Tablet – Alchemy for Personal Transformation:
“…traced as far back as 2600 B.C.E. The caduceus is depicted on the Libation Cup of Gudea, a Sumerian artifact that was made around 2000 B.C.E., and Thoth is shown holding an early Egyptian caduceus in a mural at the Temple of Seti I that dates from 1300 B.C.E. The tall staff, the magic wand of Hermes, is topped by a winged solar disk with two serpents wrapped around a staff three times – a subtler reminder that the owner of the staff is the thrice greatest one. According to the immortal French alchemist Nicholas Flamel (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1707), the two serpents of the caduceus are the snakes or dragons which the ancient Egyptians painted in the form of a circle, each biting the other’s tail, in order to teach that they spring of and from One Thing.”
How the Caduceus became linked with medicine is most likely due to its connection with alchemy, which included medicine, pharmaceuticals, chemistry, mining and, by the end of the 16th century, metallurgy.
The Staff of Asclepius and the Caduceus, or Staff of Hermes, were both widely used as printers’ marks in particular as frontispieces to pharmacopoeias, which are books containing lists of drugs with directions on how to use them, in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Perhaps a footnote but it has been noted that the $ resemble the Staff of Asclepius but this can’t be anything but a coincidence. The story goes that the Spanish pesos, also called piastres, Spanish dollars and pieces of eight (the value was eight reales) were so well used and known (like the dollar is today in the world) that when the U.S. issued its own silver coinage (first appearing in 1794) they thus replicated the Spanish weight, value and name. When pluralized pesos was abbreviated ps. This created over time the $ symbol (a p over an s, the p in time reduced to a single stroke).
It was the revolting British/American colonists who first made the transition from ps to $. This is the reason why the $ is written before the number, $1, instead of behind because it mimics how the British use their pound sign, Ł1.
Regardless of the resemblance to the sign of the dollar, the Staff of Asclepius, together with the Caduceus of Hermes, both portray the serpent in a positive light and they are certainly not the only ones. The ancient mythology of the Chinese viewed the world as surrounded by two entwined serpents that symbolized the power and wisdom of the creator. The Taoists of China used the image of two serpentine forms entwined, one white the other black, to represent two forces which they called yin and yang.
The swastika, as it was initially used by the Hindus, represent two cosmic forces moving in opposite directions much like that of yin-yang, but it’s without a doubt in the wheel of life that we see the two serpents best portrayed and explained.
Phew!
(more to come if there is a will...)
Oh this I forgot:
Deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA (http://www.sacred-texts.com/dna/hgp011k.htm), stores all the information needed to make all parts of a living being. It contains four types of bases: adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine abbreviated A, T, C and G.
Similar to a computer that uses 1s and 0s to store data, the cells in the body use As, Ts, Cs and Gs to store the genetic data such as gender, facial features and all things that can be inherited.
DNA resembles in form two serpents that are entwined, much like the Caduceus of Hermes, is referred to as the double-helix, which looks like a ladder... Jacob’s Ladder!
Genesis 28:12:
“And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.”
Jeremy Narby, again The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the origins of knowledge:
“Scientists have found spread out among the non-coding parts of the text a great number of endlessly repeated sequences with no apparent meaning… they have called this apparent gibberish, which constitutes the overwhelming majority of the genome, junk DNA… There is even a 300-letter sequence that is repeated a total of half a million times. All told, repeat sequences make up a full third of the genome Their meaning, so far, is unknown.”
How can DNA be JUNK?
The Ancients knew better, therefore I am not surprised that there is a relief impression of the royal libation cup of King Gudea of Lagash, that is over 4000 years old depicting Ningishzida in a twin serpent form (to paraphrase m1thr0s).
:cool:
MythMath
06-23-2007, 07:45 PM
Great post(s), deviadah...!
m1thr0s
06-23-2007, 10:46 PM
yes...excellent additions. I might suggest that the alternative to the term "Duality" is "Polarity" and these are not the same ideas at all. Duality suggests a division in things whereas Polarity is hyphenating an organic Unity. Ebb & Flow are not a Duality but a Polarity and the very pulse of Life itself. We find this distinction hammered out over and over again in the attempt to clarify the true nature of Yin & Yang to the western world which seems hell-bent on breaking everything down into Dualities. The Chinese would argue most adamantly that Yin & Yang are not a Duality but rather a Polarity extant in all living things.
An important distinction for us all to consciously incorporate I think...
m1thr0s
Ah, that's brilliant m1thr0s, thank you, the word duality within occult terminology has been really driving me crazy lately with certain people. Polarity, yeah I'll remember that one...useful distinction.
Thanks Deviadah, you answered my question about the dollar symbol too.
An important distinction for us all to consciously incorporate I think...
m1thr0s
Yes, I agree... I have had a problem with duality since I see it as negative... polarity is not negative.
And NaomiChan, you're welcome...
:cool:
So I was watching a children's video this morning and they refer to the golden dragon on the Ishtar gate as Marduk, though that isn't correct according to every other archaeological book I've read on ancient Mesopotamia. Marduk has a similar looking pet dragon in one picture I've seen but it is not his traditional depiction, is it? Bleh.
What I've read is the animals on the gate of Babylon represented a precautionary ward against Babylon's enemies.
Lagash itself was older than Babylon however, wasn't it?
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/caduceus.jpg
Ancient artifacts, occult, logos, epitaphs, chakra, crops circles, alchemy, sculptures, space, tarot, esoteric, dna... well as you all can see it is a symbol that pops up everywhere!
:)
True, you find what you look for... but it doesn't make it less interesting!
Radiant Star
11-11-2007, 11:47 AM
What a magnificent montage deviadah! :D
Thanks, I might do one on the Staff of Asclepius (single serpent) too, but I am divided about that image (although it is beautiful too)... yet I guess it is connected in some respects. There are two camps on the matter.
:cool:
Thanks, I might do one on the Staff of Asclepius (single serpent) too...
What the heck, here goes...
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/a-1.jpg
The image below is interesting because it shows both staffs in the same image:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/other/esculap2.jpg
Mercury (Hermes) & merchant approach disapproving Asclepius (Physician) and the naked Graces (Meditrine, Hygeia and Panacea)
[Engraved from an original in the then Museum Pio Clemens in Rome Galerie Mythologique, Recueil de Monuments by Aubin Louis Millin, Paris 1811.] - source (http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html)
Pop-culture is sometimes funny. From Sumeria to Hollywood:
http://www.agdei.com/Caduceus.JPGhttp://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/poster/small/000833.jpg
:cool:
m1thr0s
11-11-2007, 04:49 PM
It seems a little strange to me that there should be some sort of friction, or competition, or whatever it is, between the Staff of Hermes and the Staff of Asclepius...clearly they are closely related symbolisms. I have not made a study of this one d...do you happen to have a (ballpark) explanation of this?
m1thr0s
I have not made a study of this one d...do you happen to have a (ballpark) explanation of this?
Sure do!
I think you will agree that these kinds of competitions are present everywhere and they are all equally silly. Basically the core of the argument is this (I think some of this can be found earlier in this thread):
It’s said that Imhotep brought the art of healing to mankind. The symbol of a serpent was used to represent Imhotep.
In the 16th century this 13th constellation was called Alpheichius, God of Invocation, named after Asclepius who was a skilled physician, and similar to Imhotep, who practised in Greece around 1200 B.C.E. and described in Homer’s Iliad.
It’s believed that Hippocrates, a great doctor of antiquity, was a descendant of Asclepius and the oath, which bears his name, was sworn in the names of Apollo, Asclepius and Panacea.
A cult formed from Asclepius and became very popular during the 300s B.C.E.
The famous Staff of Asclepius with a single serpent wrapped around it possibly became a symbol of medicine and healing because infections by parasitic worms were common. The filarial worm Dracunculus medinensis crawled around the victim’s body, just under the skin and the physicians treated this infection by cutting a slit in the patient’s skin just in front of the worm’s path. As the worm crawled out the cut the physician carefully wound the pest around a stick until the entire animal had been removed resulting in the symbol of a worm, serpent, around a stick to advertise this service.
The Staff of Asclepius have often been confused with the Caduceus, or Staff of Hermes, and although the former is clearly a symbol of medicine and healing the latter has often taken on this role in the collective mind. The Encyclopaedia Britannica clearly states that the Staff of Asclepius is “the only true symbol of medicine.” It also says that the Caduceus is “without medical reference since it represents the magic wand of Hermes, or Mercury, the messenger of the gods and the patron of trade.”
Modern pharmacies probably began using the serpent as a symbol for their business because they sold the antidote to snake venom.
In a study conducted by Walter J. Friedlander of the use of these two staffs in logos and insignias in American health and medicine organizations he found that the Staff of Asclepius was a more common symbol for organizations related to health or medicine and the Caduceus for commercial organizations.
The reason commercial organizations favour the Caduceus before the Staff of Asclepius as their symbol/logo could be, according to Friedlander, because the former is a more symmetrical and pleasing symbol to the eye thus making it a greater tool for marketing. Or could it be because Hermes was the God of, amongst many things, commerce and theft? :p
The Staff of Asclepius and the Caduceus, or Staff of Hermes, were both widely used as printers’ marks in particular as frontispieces to pharmacopoeias, which are books containing lists of drugs with directions on how to use them, in the 17th and 18th centuries.
So I think the dispute is due to the fact that Asclepius has become connected to SCIENCE, and Hermes to the OCCULT = not good bed-fellows!
There is more to the story historically than the brief quote above, but the two staffs both interlink throughout history at various places and in mythology. Alchemy is a healing art, so I think it is silly that both staffs can't be considered in all this.
Although as far as Ng is concerned I still think that the Caduceus is more interesting, I just think that it would be bad form to completly ignore Asclepius!
:cool:
m1thr0s
11-11-2007, 05:10 PM
thanks d...that's interesting...it's not like it makes a world of difference to me personally. Afterall, Oruboros is usually depicted as a single serpent and even Ng will often appear singularly such as in the case of the Mushushu Dragon etc...I think that no matter how we look at it we are still dealing with related imageries and related traditions...
Although as far as Ng is concerned I still think that the Caduceus is more interesting, I just think that it would be bad form to completely ignore Asclepius!oh yeah...definitely...
m1thr0s
Afterall, Oruboros is usually depicted as a single serpent and even Ng will often appear singularly such as in the case of the Mushushu Dragon etc...
:yes:
So true... the Ouboros (http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4f.html) is a whole field on its own and highly interesting one I might add!
Have you looked into the Ng=Thoth link (or shall I say theory)?
Thoth (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/thot/esp_thot_9.htm)
Call me crazy but what about this: thoth-thought-logos (or is it reaching too far)?
But both Thoth and Ng have the common feature of the Moon, which I don't think should be ignored! Depending on what system you look at the Lapidem in VITRIOL is represented as the Moon (and Lapidem is also the final step of the alchemical process), which in turn is connected to the Third Eye (pineal gland)!
By the way have you noticed the Pine Cone symbolism? Often on the Caduceus there is a ball or a crown (or pine cone) at the top. On the Ng image from Sumeria it is just a ball.
Anyway this symbol pops up here and there too, although not as much as the Caduceus I must admit.
I've emptied my brain enough for one post... hope some of this can be food for thought (just trying to keep my favourite thread kicking)!
:cool:
m1thr0s
11-11-2007, 05:33 PM
sure...the Ng-->Hermes-->Thoth progression has already been well observed and Logos is pretty much an underscoring theme in everything anyway so I don't see a terrible stretch going on there. You'd just have to be a little careful how you framed it I imagine...
good stuff here d...thanks for all the *fuel*...
m1thr0s
Well the only reason I asked carefully is because sometimes it is easy to find too many connections here and there - and you end up having a large conspiracy theory... if you get what I mean.
But it, as you say, depends on how you frame it. Personally I am just trying to get the whole puzzle together as I am obsessed with a Theory of Everything... and I am sure it is there somewhere in the Void (chaos). Ng is for sure a large cog in the whole machine!
Anyways check this out:
It will be of some interest to note that the cumulative "NG" we get at apex also just so happens to be the conventional "nickname" of Ningishzidda as well, so once again, we have exceptional synchronicity occurring here. - Ningishzida Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm)
N = Nun
G = Gimel
The word gimel is related to gemul, and this word means justified repayment, or the giving of reward and punishment.
In Aramaic, nun means "fish." The mem, the waters of the sea, is the natural medium of the nun, fish. The nun "swims" in the mem, covered by the waters of the "hidden world." Creatures of the "hidden world" lack self-consciousness. Unlike fish, land animals, revealed on the face of the earth, possess self-consciousness.
sources here (http://www.inner.org/hebleter/nun.htm)
The gimel of "today" is the secret of better one hour of teshuvah [return] and good deeds in this world than all the life of the world to come. The gimel of "tomorrow" is the secret of better one hour of serenity in the world to come than all of the life of this world.
sources here (http://www.inner.org/hebleter/gimmel.htm)
The symbol of the fish is well-known to be that of Christ (and think of Christ not in Biblical terms naturally). The reward and punishment of gimel reminds me of the weighing of hearts as done by Thoth. So even the nickname is some sort of Christ/Thoth mix! :)
Talk about reading into stuff, right?
Anyway I think it was worth mentioning, perhaps others can expand on it...
:cool:
Quetzalcoatl ("feathered snake") is also interesting. And the caduceus is often seen with wings anyway, as is Mercury (the God).
It is a nice soup! :laugh:
Sometimes it's good to watch instead of reading:
Sumerian Origin of Humans? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1356843629123064992&q=sumeria+site%3Avideo.google.com&total=14&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5) - (genetics, ufo and sumeria)
Probably nothing new in this video for most AF members (and an average piece of work at that), but one thing does make it worth the watch and that is to see these:
http://forums.abrahadabra.com/images/styles/abrahadabra/misc/logo.gif
(post this here since Ng = Sumer)
Edit: History Timeline According to Sitchin (http://www.world-mysteries.com/pex_2.htm) (I post this link because I find it interesting, although some of it can be debated and smells of conspiracy... yet some elements can be used as the springboard into othere areas Ng related)
There's a book called Sumerian Mythology (http://sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum01.htm) by Samuel Noah Kramer that I would like to bring to the forums attention (for those who are not familiar with it)!
I shall quote an interesting passage, but I recommend reading the whole book as there is much to be picked up from it.
ENKI AND NINHURSAG: THE AFFAIRS OF THE WATER-GOD
And so Ninhursag proceeds to remove the effects of her curse from the rapidly sinking Enki. This she achieves by giving birth to a special deity for each of Enki's pains.
This passage which closes our poem runs as follows:
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My . . . hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the god Abu I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My hip hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the god Nintul I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My tooth hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the goddess Ninsutu I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My mouth hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the goddess Ninkasi I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My . . . hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the god Nazi I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My side hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the goddess Dazimua I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My rib hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the goddess Ninti I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "My brother, what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My . . . hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the god Enshagag I gave birth for thee."
Ninhursag: "For the little ones to which I gave birth
Enki: "Let Abu be the king of the plants,
Let Nintul be the lord of Magan,
Let Ninsutu marry Ninazu,
Let Ninkasi be (the goddess who) sates the heart,
Let Nazi marry Nindar,
Let Dazimua marry Ningishzida,
Let Ninti be the queen of the month,
Let Enshagag be the lord of Dilmun."
O Father Enki, praise!
And so, as the reader will note, the eight aches and pains which had come upon Enki as punishment for his eating the eight plants, were healed by the eight deities born of Ninhursag for that purpose. Moreover, the superficiality and barren artificiality of the concepts implied in this closing passage of our myth, although not apparent from the English translation, are brought out quite clearly by the Sumerian original. For the fact is that the actual relationship between each of the "healing" deities and the sickness which it is supposed to cure, is verbal and nominal only; this relationship manifests itself in the fact that the name of the deity contains in it part or all of the word signifying the corresponding aching part of Enki's body. In brief, it is only because the name of the deity sounded like the sick body-member that the makers of this myth were induced to associate the two; actually there is no organic relationship between them. - source here (http://sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum07.htm)
:viper:
Edit: Check out the Ng FAQ (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=2218) & Sumerian Dictionary (http://www.ping.de/sites/systemcoder/necro/info/sumerian.htm)
Enenuru has been focusing on some fascinating obscure texts pertaining to Ningishzidda recently, I won't post it all here. us4-he2-gal2 (http://enenuru.proboards52.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=admin) has been extremely helpful in tapping into rare documents. Just a little:
Textual evidence attests to the fact that the cult of Damu "influenced and in time blended with the very similiar cult of Dumuzi the shepherd." [1970] Jacobsen understands Damu to represent the power in the rising sap, and this deity's relation to Dumuzi and depiction as a dying god is important for consideration of Ning̃išhzida in myth - as indeed the later would 'sometimes be identifed' with Damu. The reasons for this identification if Jacobsen is accurate, are more apparent when both Damu and Ning̃išhzida are understood as deities of the orchardman on the lower Euphrates, and both are deities whose primary Numinous power was in the fertility and new life of tree's and vegetation - their dying aspect (part of what brings Dumuzi, Damu and Ningishzida together) must be attributable to yearly waning in the dry season. The power of Damu is further detailed by the author "As a power for fertility and new life the god would appear to have been specifically the power in the life-giving waters as they return in springtime in the rivers, rise in the ground, and enter trees and plants as sap, for when in the cult Damu's mother and sister seek him he has died in the trees and rushes and the search moves through a world that has become the nether world, dry and lifeless. When the god is found and returns, it is from the river that he comes back.
A balbale to Ninĝišzida (Ninĝišzida B): c.4.19.2 (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.2)
- The existence of a tradition of Ninĝišzida as incantation specialist is suggested further here "Lord, your mouth is that of {a pure magician} {(1 ms. has instead:) a snake with a great tongue, a magician} {(1 ms. has instead:) a poisonous snake}" - Perhaps Madness, Meine Freund, you might cross reference YOS XI for me to see why I remember him being mentioned there. It should be noted that Ninĝišzida is not a major feature in the incantation lore despite this piece of Hymnology howeever. (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.2)
The temple hymns: c.4.80.1 (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.80.1)
- Your prince is the prince who stretches out his pure hand, the holy one of heaven, with luxuriant and abundant hair hanging at his back, Lord Ninĝišzida.
(http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.80.1)
Ningiszida's Boat-Ride to Hades
by T. Jacobsen and B. Alster On the Snake Imagery of the God (pg.315) :
"....this seeming inconsistency of a god of trees who is also a god of serpents resolves itself once it is realized that the ancients considered the roots of trees in some ways "identical" with serpents....That they did so consider them is clear from the sign for tree root, arina, which consists of two crossed signs for serpent (MUŠ). A variant sign adds the sign for tree, g̃iš. In its earlier pictographic form this sign-group would have constituted a slightly abbreviated form of the 'caduceus." which thus shows itself as representing the trunk of a tree with its roots in sepent form. In fact, the representations of Ningišzida on Gudea's monuments may well be a humanized version of the "caduceus," the serpents' heads remain, but their bodies and the tree trunk having been made into a human figure."
On Gudea's vase - - What is this vase?
Jacobsen Comments: " On monuments he is pictured with serpents heads protruding from his shoulders and, in his preanthropomorphic form, as a "caduceus," a pole around which two symmetrical serpents wind themselves." (an accompaning note refers specifally to the vase and reads: "...The relief shows the gate of the god's cella through which the cult image is visible." The read is referred to L. Heuzeu, Catalogue des antiquites chaldiennes (Paris, 1902, no. 125 for an image. Does Jacobsen mean Gudea's cup I wonder? (See Nov.29 above.) I dont see how this is a gate, seems more link two semi-anthropomorphic beings holding a pole. )
Dina Katz in The Image of the Netherworld in the Sumerian Sources makes it very clear that Ningišzida is the son of Ninazu and that his mother is Ningirida. Ninazu in turn is the son of Ereškigal.
The prayers on the ETCSL to Ningišzida should also clear things up.
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.1# (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.1#)
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.2# (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.2#)
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.3# (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.3#)
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.4# (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.19.4#)
Enenuru continues to be a goldmine for the Sumerian research...
http://enenuru.proboards52.com/v45index.cgi?board=topics&action=display&thread=53
Again from Enenuru (http://enenuru.proboards52.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=expel&thread=100&page=1), just a tiny snippet from a big post made concerning The Yoshikawa Database (http://htq.minpaku.ac.jp/databases/sumer/index-eng.jsp?INDEX=index-eng.jsp&BACK=http://www.minpaku.ac.jp/menu/database.html&HEADER=false), the compiled data from Mamoru Yoshikawa, Professor Emeritus of Hiroshima University.
Sumerian Proverbs 1.4
dNin-giš-za-da-ra ga-ti na-an-na-ab-bé-en
(Gordon: Do not say to Ningishzida (a nether-world deity): "Let me live!"
4. cf. Van Buren, Iraq I p1934], pp. 60-89
Kinda funny....well I think so...
This is the seal of Amsterdam. Found it when I came here for the first time and it's identical to that old sumerian picture.
http://www.henrifloor.nl/plaatjes/noordholland/amsterdam.gif
Oh, the Ningishzidda symbol, except, tackier...I didn't realize...
wait, why do they have erect penises?
Oh, the Ningishzidda symbol, except, tackier...I didn't realize...
wait, why do they have erect penises?
Hmm, I think a animal like that's penis would be greater if it was erect :laugh: Besides some dogs have penises like that when they aren't erect...
frater luciferi
05-02-2008, 04:23 PM
i just read somewhere today that the brazen serpent in the old testamant was somehow a differing version of teh caseudus? that would trip me out if it was true..
m1thr0s
05-02-2008, 07:14 PM
check out wiki's article on serpent symbolism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29)
yeah...the book of genesis appears to be a weak rewrite of an earlier sumerian creation myth epic...I seem to have forgotten the exact name so will have to return when I find it...
m1thr0s
frater luciferi
05-03-2008, 12:07 AM
no no the brazen serpent is very very different then the serpent who tempted adam and eve...
i just scanned that article that you gave me mithros and i dont see the mention of it..heres another wiki-article that mentions the brazen serpent...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_serpent
wierd..somebodies gotta update that last article on serpent symbolism..its missing a few ..and i think there are a few serious gaps of mythologys that intermingle with the archetype of the serpent.
this is a verse from the gospel of john where i think jesus basically says hes A serpent...
"Jesus said "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Man) be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_life)". [6]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_serpent#cite_note-5)
i mean wat the fuck right? is jeshuah basically saying that he is satan? because in that verse ....god i really love pointing out theology flaws in christian interpritation of scriptures...and there are a lot... maybe someday i will finally write my book on how x-tian cosmology and theology contradicts judaic in almost infinite ways lol....
i mean the very fact that god supposedly commanded moses to create a 1. graven image and 2. a graven image of a serpent as a holy relic? that to me basically proves to me that the x-tian tenet of the serpent being "evil" is daftly false...all along the same lines as dragons being evill...because essentially if you read in the zohar the seraphim --ie the ANGELS who guard the gates of eden to keep mankind out--are ...now dont choke to much because im sure you all know this loll....firey
serpents or for all intents and purposes flying dragons..
thats no real stretch if you understand how pagan cultures throughout the ages have revered dragons the same basically as daimons.. now i ramble...i need to go through this thread and re-read it lol...
m1thr0s
05-03-2008, 02:32 AM
hmmm...yeah, that's something I hadn't picked up on before. sounds like this King Hezikiah was a regular corporate stooge though...sort of the ronald reagan of judaism or something...
I can only stand on the sidelines and wonder for the moment...interesting though...some kind of mystery going on with this.
this whole serpent thing is beyond historical comprehension...it's just so damn ancient...now they've got it linked as far back as 70,000 years and judaism is blowing its damn horn about what? the last few thousand years? That's just about the time humankind discovered political sitcoms and decided to make a godamm religion of them. It's the same thing everywhere we look...the really ancient past is seeping in through the seams and up through the rotting timbers...and it's almost all linked to the healing and trance arts, particularly with serpents...
m1
this whole serpent thing is beyond historical comprehension...it's just so damn ancient...now they've got it linked as far back as 70,000 years and judaism is blowing its damn horn about what? the last few thousand years? That's just about the time humankind discovered political sitcoms and decided to make a godamm religion of them. It's the same thing everywhere we look...the really ancient past is seeping in through the seams and up through the rotting timbers...and it's almost all linked to the healing and trance arts, particularly with serpents...
m1
Hmm, sometime back while living in the forest I got told that the 'serpents' have most of the power inside, or are most powerful. Of course it was a metaphor for the reptilian brain inside that it rules over the other minds. And when kundalini is aroused to it's full extent it floods the reptilian brain with energy and security and makes it 'silent' so that the higher brain cortexes can be used.
I'm starting to find it almost funny that the bible depicts the serpent as evil, for some reason I have lately been placing Christianity along with Scientology as they are both as absurd.
...just read somewhere today that the brazen serpent in the old testamant was somehow a differing version of the caduceus?
Weird since I only yesterday read about Moses and his staff!
And the Lord spake unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole... - from ExodusWhich he did during his 40 years of wandering in the wilderness. Moses also had horns in his head when he came down from the mountain with the ten commandements/emerald tablet (pick your legend).
The reasons behind the good serpent vand bad serpent (both in the Bible) is due to - according to scholars - the fact that in the times when the Bible was written, and before it was written, the Hebrews had a situation similar to Luther and the Catholics i.e. two distinct representations of the serpent occured.
The issue was not really about the serpent itself, but about having graven images of God! Proof in itself that perhaps the Serpent is some sort of powerful being... like Ng!
I am still digesting some heavy texts and the above is just a drop of it!
:cool:
http://www.faktoider.nu/img/moses_michelangelo.jpg
See: Moses & Snakes (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?p=35922)
...the book of genesis appears to be a weak rewrite of an earlier sumerian creation myth epic...I seem to have forgotten the exact name so will have to return when I find it...
Look no further... it is called The Garden of Dilmun!
Sumerian Dilmun vs. Eden (http://www.geocities.com/garyweb65/eden1.html)
The Land of Tilmun/Dilmun (http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/dilmun.html)
I have lately been placing Christianity along with Scientology as they are both as absurd.
Human beings are absurd!
:cool:
Posted this link in the alchemy resource (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1488)thread, but worthy of being brought forth here too:
Origins of Alchemy - A Look at the Cultural Birth of Alchemy (http://www.alchemylab.com/origins_of_alchemy.htm) by Lynn Osburn.
"And so humanity missed out on immortality until the sons of the gods fell in love with the daughters of men, married them and had children by them. Then not wanting their lovers to die they taught them the secrets of immortality that Ea had discovered. Those secrets were the secrets of alchemy. Ea’s youngest son was Ningizzida, Lord of the Tree of Truth, in Mesopotamia. He was revered as Thoth in Egypt and Hermes in the West.":3smile:
Perhaps us4-he2-gal2 can care to comment on the above essay...
the Thoth/Ningishzidda connection is absurd, for starters...he's not a frigging swamp chicken...
the Thoth/Ningishzidda connection is absurd, for starters...he's not a frigging swamp chicken...
Why is that assumption false?
What is your take on the Thoth connection then?
:3smile:
m1thr0s
05-11-2008, 09:04 AM
swamp chicken??? :laugh:
never heard Thoth referred to this way...Abraxas is laughing his ass off and Baphomet is also amused...
m1
Suen or Sin, may bear some resemblance to Thoth.
All forms of beliefs are borrowed material from different cultures, and if the Egyptians borrowed concepts from the Sumerians, for instance, is hard to say, but what is certain is that they both were inspired by some other - more ancient - source... be it Atlantis, Aliens or something else!
Thoth is a master architect, perhaps not of life, but of the world!
Many historians have linked Ng and Thoth as being - perhaps not the same - at least inspired by each other.
Of course the Caduceus can be linked through Hermes towards Ng... and since Thoth is linked with Hermes there are - if even few - some links present.
The Ng you've created magically is your property, and the Ng images you draw are from your mind and your fire. Others might see Ng different, and many might agree with you and see it the same.
One thing that is certain is that Ng is not Ng©!
:3smile:
Suen or Sin, may bear some resemblance to Thoth.
Agreed!
:cool:
Just to be clear I don't care about idol worship so really it is all the same to me if Ng is Thoth and a girl... I am only interested in the most logical truth. So far allegory weighs heavier for me than Ng ever having been in the flesh at all!
Mmm, I could eat a swamp chicken right now. Would do me good :laugh:
I find the whole winged lion concept intriguing. Seems like the finnish king lion forgot to get wings for him :)
frater luciferi
05-12-2008, 10:35 AM
double post! sorry
frater luciferi
05-12-2008, 10:37 AM
. im not sure that the egyptians borrowed from sumerian myth, but i know that its no reall stretch to say that they borrowed from the babylonians a bit. and we all know that the babylonians borrowed from the sumerians and the hebrews ripped everyone off back then...
i remember finding a south american garden of eden myth from my OCD collecting of occult images off the internet--sadly the hard-drive i had my occult images collected on decided to go tits up just a few weeks ago..but i will try to find that other myth as i think it is very relevant.
us4-he2-gal2
05-20-2008, 12:12 AM
Someone mentioned about I might review an article and drop a line about it, and I certainy will. Im not able to tonight, but if I havent in a week or so, and it still needs looking into, feel free to msg me and give me a kick. cheers
Earlier in this thread, here (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325&page=17), there was some stuff on the Staff of Asclepius. Below is a Ptolemy coin with Alexander the Great wearing an elephant scalp, symbol of his conquests in India. But there is also the Staff of Asclepius symbol above his eyes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/PtolemyCoinWithAlexanderWearingElephantScalp.jpg/621px-PtolemyCoinWithAlexanderWearingElephantScalp.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PtolemyCoinWithAlexanderWearingElephantScalp.jpg)
Alexander was connected with alchemy...
As pharaoh, he [Alexander the Great] gained access to all the treasures of Egypt, including the whereabouts of Hermes’ (Akhenaten's?) tomb. Convinced it was his destiny to reveal the ancient secrets, Alexander immediately headed across the Libyan desert to an ancient temple at Siwa near where the tomb was located. According to Albertus Magnus and others, that is where Alexander found the Emerald Tablet.
Alexander took the tablet and scrolls he found in the tomb to Heliopolis, where he placed the scrolls in the sacred archives and put the Emerald Tablet on public display. - source (http://www.alchemylab.com/hyper_history.htm)
True or not, it is most probable that modern European alchemy began in, or nearby, the Alexandria - so there much have been some knowledge present i.e. the entwined serpent finds its way onto the coinage.
Ng moves thus forward through the collective!
:cool:
Here is an example of old snakestones at a shrine on a ledge in India at Vijayanagara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara). Worshippers can come up to the stones and place offerings or sprinkle with colored dust. In the mix seems to be Brahma or a mult faced Narasimha and Hanuman.
http://www.dazimua.com/images/mutationalalchemy/abrahadabraforumimages/Vijayanagar_snakestone.jpg
EtuMalku
02-17-2009, 04:38 PM
Naomi: how old is this shrine?
There is no information it could date from the same period as a famous Narasimha (Nrsrimadeva) statue in the same region, by looking at the reign of Krishnadeva Raya who erected it this style could be dated 1509-1529 CE.
However, this is only speculation. The stones could be from differing periods (as the different stages of wear might suggest) or they could all be much older or much newer. It's hard to say.
The Vijayanagara empire ended in 1646 and was established in the 1300's (C.E.) with first settlements in the area beginning in 1 C.E. so probably within that time period. It is definately after both the Gudea beaker/cup and the Choga Mish caduceus.
The village this is found in is called Hampi. Hampi is the original capitol of Vijayanagara, and so it contains some of the oldest works of art. So it is safe to assume it is from an older generation of artifacts, with an undying lineage of worship as indicated by the fresh signs of puja.
In response to post #65 and #66
The symbol of Vijayanagara's state, Karnataka, is this:
http://www.dazimua.com/images/mutationalalchemy/abrahadabraforumimages/karnataka.JPG
Catalytic Subterfuge
02-17-2009, 07:16 PM
Hmm, double headed phoenix. Good to know masons borrow from good roots.
There's an old term, not sure where it's from and it's both Western and Eastern in style, it goes, "as the wheel rises so it shall also fall"
my conceptual grasp of tantra indicates to me a phenomenon of complete and eternal "rising' that is the serpents of the caduceus twining either around a rod or over discs as illuminated by the photo of the serpent shrine at Vijayanagara for instance recently displayed. (post #194)
m1thr0s was explaining to me the VIAOV mechanism I also noticed the same effect and we had a discussion about it being an infinity loop.
The dawn of Tantra had its bearers insist that both heaven and earth were attainable in this immediate life and this still holds true, only we have lost a grip on the adequate means to this position of solid union with whole universe which the I Ching engages and so we must in turn engage the I Ching. This is being done on this site and I think it holds the keys to our future in every way possible.
I think the serpents are describing this same formula in pictographic form...the pole could just as well be the eternal unending pillar of fire represent maha Siva in the old story where Vishnu and Brahma have trouble finding the end of it...then they realize who Siva "is"
Found Hermes and his Ng-styled staff in Geneva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva) the other day... outside some corporate headquarters alas... still nice statue!
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/IMG_2110.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/IMG_2111.jpg
:cool:
woah that is pretty sweet
ningishzidda74
03-28-2009, 04:57 PM
From my personal studies about sumerology, and given my rational satanism backgorund, i have the idea that the Proto satan was not Ningishzidda but Enki...
in particular way this could be evident in a seal called The Temptation Seal:
http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/TemptationSeal.jpg
which depics the scene when satan tempted Eve in the garden of Eden.
Considered that the Eden was the mesopotamian E.Din (house of the righteous), and that in the cilynder we see a female figure on the left (Titi - Eve?), a deity, and the Tree (of life? wisdom?), the Serpent would identify the deity with Enki.
The single serpent was infact Enki's symbol, while Ningishzidda's symbol was the entwined serpents.
So you are saying (to simplify) that Enki --> Asclepius symbol and Ng --> Caduceus symbol!
:cool:
ningishzidda74
03-28-2009, 05:06 PM
So you are saying (to simplify) that Enki --> Asclepius symbol and Ng --> Caduceus symbol!
:cool:
yep exactly... and i add more:
Enki ---> Satan / Lucifer
Ningishzidda ---> Mamoon
Marduk ----> Belial
On the opposite side the work is more complex because Jahwe is a 'common name' used to describe a 'fictitious deity' that assumes the attributes of:
Enlil
Ishkur
Enki
Nergal
Ningishzidda
Ninurta
Well if Enki and Ng goes in those two directions a few jumbles in my mind are cleared up!
:laugh:
The split between these two staffs has always troubled me, although there is more to the story than Sumerian mythology... but it does add to the general argument about the differences between single and double serpent symbolisms!
:cool:
AfterViewer
03-28-2009, 05:18 PM
:)Check out the "introductions" section of OFF-TOPIC Discussions, Ning74. I'm sure everyone would like to say "Hello" ! AV.
ningishzidda74
03-28-2009, 05:20 PM
:)Check out the "introductions" section of OFF-TOPIC Discussions, Ning74. I'm sure everyone would like to say "Hello" ! AV.
i go right now, thanks... this is the first time i connect... c-ya later on... time to go to bed here!
This image is from the Book of Gates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Gates):
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/20900.jpg
:cool:
MythMath
06-07-2009, 04:08 PM
5 - 5 - 5
Pent Stars = Sirius
+ + + + +
Constellations containing stars that rise and set were incorporated into early
calendars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar) or zodiacs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac). The ancient Egyptians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) based their calendar on the
heliacal rising of Sirius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius) and devised a method of telling the time at night based on
the heliacal risings of 36 stars called decan stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decans) (one for each 10° segment of the
360° circle of the zodiac/calendar). The Sumerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerians), the Babylonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonians), and the ancient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek)
Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) also used the heliacal risings of various stars for the timing of agricultural
activities. To the Māori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori) of New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand), the Pleiades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades_%28star_cluster%29) are called Matariki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matariki) and their
heliacal rising signifies the beginning of the new year (around June).
Happy New Year!
:p
fr.novumorganum
06-10-2009, 08:04 AM
http://www.nuclearblastusa.com/nb/images/album/127/medium/TherionLemuriaSiriusB300x300.jpg
Eros and Thanatos are brances on the same old tree
Rooted in the soil of shadow and light
If God was seperated from the dark twin, the Devil
Could he ever know the soul of mankind?
We want a new god called Abraxas!
Enter the Pleroma and see that nothingless is all
And you must destroy a world to be born
Alpha and Omega are the beginning and the end
United in the shape of Abraxas
Darkness and the light
Sermones ad Mortous, empty fullness
Abraxas, your words is a riddle to be solved
You bear the mark of Cain
And you are fighting like a bird
(To) free you from the egg, the egg is all the world
The Sermon to the Dead
A gospel to another life
Hear the words of Cain, the sinner and the saint
The grave is a flower
And you are dying to be born
Baptized by fire and you will slough your skin
The sign of Abraxas
The circle of the solar year
Deep in the winter you'll see the sun be born
I think Ningishzidda is the symbolical reference of the DNA technology which all species on this planet inhabit which gives a rightful ownership to the planet and for that matter to any other planets with a similar technology that gives and sustains life.
m1thr0s
06-11-2009, 12:55 PM
Ningishzidda ---> MamoonI can find no reference to *Mamoon*, so have no way to scrutinize your conclusion. If this is a stylized version of Mammon, I fail to see the connection...
for one thing, Ningishzidda comes MUCH earlier in chronological time and is a LOT more cosmically aligned than Mammon, which mainly applies to societal constructs on the degenerative end of the scale...
There appears to have been no historical god form answering to this name. Even *Mammon* does not class as a syriadic god form...lesser demon at best.
Who or what is Mamoon?
Show your work please, particularly when asserting radical or unexpected ideas.
We have no reason to accept these things based solely on some enigmatic thought-process going on in your own head.
We are painfully liberal around these parts but that is too much for anyone to be able to entertain, even hypothetically!
m1
Sort of like the Christian who insisted to me he was the incarnation of Ningishzidda and since I owned the domain name dazimua I MUST be his wife and we should pair up immediately
Sometimes I hate the occult world.
Really.
Solipsism at its finest.....
m1thr0s
06-11-2009, 11:57 PM
It's annoying to have to spend hours trying to track down references that don't exist...
I feel like all this make-believe occultism is actually just the same old chickenshit denialism in a different packaging. People with bold ideas need to cultivate the integrity it takes for those ideas to connect to reality...what good is a reality construct that only works for one person living in some sort of imaginary bubble? Grow some balls for cripe's sake...or at least a spine.
Not meaning to prejudge in this instance, but we run into this crap all the time.
It is true of course that Enki has his serpent (eg, Ushumgul) form...pretty much all the oldest Sumerian godforms did as near as I can tell...
m1
Ningishzidda wasn't the first serpent god, but he was an *accomplishment* through-put as humanity *grasped* for the knowledge.
Trantigridian snake gods were hardly new to the area....there are probably dozens of them and big deadly vipers were prevalent in the regions.
Mostly though Ningishzidda excels at his *heaven in hell* aspects which I have references for and may be readily found scattered throughout the site or perhaps contained in this thread I havn't the time to go through it all again. (that's your job ning74)
The crossing serpents emblem is exquisite - Liber Al Vel Legis speaks of the X and the reflection on the caduceus tantric weaving is superb for fundamental ascension motivations.
Ningishzidda's father, Ninazu (No, Ningishzidda's father was NOT ENKI or ENLIL or whatever) was also a serpent so we see here an evolution of forms brought about by the subsequent raising of collective human consciousness (at least in the Transtigridian regions) leading ultimately to Babylon in the marriage of Sumerian and Semitic cultures.
my references are in this thread
But again the underworld aspect of Ningishzidda as a heavenly deity residing in hell is fascinating.
It's annoying to have to spend hours trying to track down references that don't exist...
Perhaps it was channeled gnosis.
:p
m1thr0s
06-12-2009, 08:59 AM
gnosis is sooo gnarly dood! :gonzo:
(gnot a gnood excuse for gnincompoopery though...)
m1 :cool:
Okay so before this thread degenerates into gnincompoopery just cite your references or keep your mouth shut please
I am tired of all of the crap about Ningishzidda going around and assertions of his mother being various deities unsupported in REAL Sumerian research. Same goes for the mother's baby's daddy...
Sumerian literature is very clear about who is what and there is no reason to make huge leaps in speculation when there is enough readily unique aspects to this deity to grasp for on his own merits without dragging Judeo-Christianity into it.
Thank you.
...there is no reason to make huge leaps in speculation when there is enough readily unique aspects to this deity to grasp for on his own merits without dragging Judeo-Christianity into it.
Judeo-Christianity is not old enough to be interesting in regards to Ng.
:deveye:
ok thanks for the support dev
Ningishzidda is current, as well, i feel
so the best of both worlds so to speak as well as a remarkable display of endurance throughout the centuries - almost every other sort of demigod is mostly about some weird-ass fetish - this stupid crappy "patron saint" mumbo-jumbo that focuses only on mundane matters rather than transcendental needs. I will always maintain that Ningishzidda is a bridge, nothing less and nothing more - connecting to an enormous range of evolutionary possibilities and paramatman itself simply because of his heavy serpent association - which is not to say he is confined to this apparatus - leopard, dragon, wild bull, prince, magician are all mentioned as attributes of Ng yet it was the serpent that captured mankind's imagination most immensely during that and even this period of time (we're still stuck on the serpent from the Garden of Eden)
I'm really captured by the 418 synchronicity though it is worth looking into Ningishzidda specifically because of this...
I mean I like snakes but let's face it - they were an evolutionary aberration based on one planet - it isn't all about animals though the caduceus like form of plasmic structures pertaining to the plasmic-universe theory is probably the closest contemporary aspect of Ningishzidda modern occultists could be researching right now (and we are, by and by)
:)
m1thr0s
06-12-2009, 04:06 PM
I haven't been able to find an example of Ningishzidda spelled out in cuneiform yet, so I went to this site ( http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/index.html ) and tried to piece it together...
I was working around the 3-part division Nin + Gish + Zida, generally translated as Lord + Tree + Right, True or Good... (Lord of the Good Tree)...
Some of you may have already seen this elsewhere...does it look anything like this? EPSD is supposed to be a really reliable resource...
http://abrahadabra.com/images/attached/nin-gish-zida.jpg
I really want to see how this is supposed to be written and don't much like having to guess...
m1
I think it looks good from this perspective:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/ng.jpg
Almost like a Rorschach I see many things in this regardless if you have compiled it correctly or not. Sometimes the greatest ideas are born from guesswork...
:deveye:
m1thr0s
06-12-2009, 10:14 PM
Sometimes the greatest ideas are born from guesswork...that works just fine for creative science. for the moment I am more interested in historical accuracy...
Cuneiform languages can be tricky where there may be numerous ways to put words together logically. I've seen a lot of iconography of Ningishzida but, nothing indicating the correct spelling of his name.
I'm sure there must be examples out there somewhere...I just haven't seen them.
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-12-2009, 11:52 PM
Does this notion of Ng-as-Satan encompass manifestations of temptation?
I only ask, especially with respect to mentions of cuneiform, because the epic of Gilgamesh is the earliest recording that attempts to qualify symptoms of temptation. Granted, Gilgamesh doesn't give a name to this, but it's there. And Gilgamesh is older than the oldest Egyptian text we're aware of.
I mean, I'm asking this because if you're talking about Satan in a pre-christian sense, then even the old testament fails to reference satan. The Hebrew old testament gives no mention of "evil" tempting Eve, but rather portrays this so-called "evil" as simply "what is," and "what is" tempts Eve to pick the fruit.
Keep in mind, the original old testament is written using only consonants with no vowels whatsoever, so the reader is left to decide whether or not, say, "VL" means "EVIL" or "OVAL."
From what I've grasped from this thread, and threads about Ng on other forums, Ng has no relation to Satan whatsoever and resides far removed from any notion of Satan that might tickle one's fancy.
I mean, if you have to reach that far back, then you've reached way beyond any left-over potential to consider a relation to Satan in any respectable historical sense.
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-13-2009, 06:23 AM
In the Tale of Adapa (Adapa and the South Wind), humankind is tempted with an offering of immortality through the eating of foods offered to Adapa by Anu which he refused on advise from Enki (note: some accounts say it was Enlil) , so yes, there is at least this very early reference to the idea of temptation in the Sumerian creation myths, right down to the *forbidden fruit*. Both the Old Testament Genesis and then the Christianized version of it are retellings of these same stories with characters swapped out and a few details rearranged. Ningishzidda would not have been the actual *tempter* in the original version but the Sumerian Annunaki in general were a serpentine race of immortals (or quasi-immortals).
I mean, if you have to reach that far back, then you've reached way beyond any left-over potential to consider a relation to Satan in any respectable historical sense.Comparative Philosophy in general is always interested in the parallels that exist between one world view and others. Pouring over the historical record is just an attempt at identifying whatever continuities may exist in the evolution of contemporary ideas. But I don't think anyone is pushing any literalistic Ng=Satan ideas so much as suggesting that the notion of Satan itself was borrowed from other sources and reconfigured to meet its authors more narrowed agenda. Understanding where the notion of Satan derives from (or may derive from) helps us to put it in some kind of rational perspective.
Christianity lacked a well defined *antagonist* until it finally came up with *Satan*. Satan is the glue that hold the whole story line intact. Prior to this, it relied upon Rome itself as the antagonist, which limited Christianity to a political revolt until this was finally rectified. Satan was a complete fabrication on Christianity's part, and a *hail-mary* pass at that...but it worked. Even vilifying the Jews was a more difficult bill of goods to sell until the emergence of Satan, which then serves to explain why the Jews would be so terribly *evil*... so Satan has been tremendously successful for Christianity...but what is it really? Where do these ideas originate and why? Modern Satanism isn't really bought into Satan as a literal being because it isn't one...if there are any substantial archetypes underscoring it, you have to reach back further in time to find them.
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-13-2009, 01:44 PM
I definitely see the value of drawing parallels. I just don't think I really understand how you can draw that kind of parallel between an entity that encompasses so much and one that maybe doesn't. That came out rather shaky. What I mean is, I see the parallel between, say, Osiris and Jesus: both died and rose again, were born under strange circumstances, etc. But I don't see the parallel between, say, God and Zeus because Zeus doesn't encompass nearly as much territory as God does. If Zeus did, there wouldn't be so many other gods, such as Cupid, but Cupid's there because, unlike God, Zeus doesn't encompass Love and Passion, so he needs Cupid to do the job for him. So, rather than draw a parallel between Zeus and God, wouldn't it make more sense to draw a parallel between Mt. Olympus and God?
Ng seems to encompass aspects of Satan and may very well have contributed to what eventually evolved into the notion of Satan. Which makes me wonder: is it just Ng that should be looked into, or are there other embodiments of other aspects that contributed to the development of Satan that are being overlooked?
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-13-2009, 02:20 PM
to begin with, Satan and Satanism are not really the same thing. What is called Satanism amounts to an amalgamate of philosophical ideas more or less lumped together under this general heading...and many of these conflict with each other as well, so none of that is entirely lucid. Some *Satanists* believe in a literal *Satan*, most do not. Some believe in things like *culling*, most do not. It's a term of convenience...or rather what I prefer to call a term of inconvenience, as you have probably heard me say before...
Satan itself is also an amalgamate of a different kind. It would be reckless to assert that Ningishzidda is the sole prototype underscoring the makeshift entity called Satan...this entity was clearly pooled together from numerous sources and some of it was just pulled right out of people's asses I think and concurrently aimed at certain people deemed targetable at the time. Its characteristics were embellished over time and some of these are just plain ridiculous...part Pan, part Serpent, part Angel, part serial killer, part entrepreneur, part whatever...the scapegoat called Satan is a patchwork quilt of fear and prejudice and self-loathing all rolled up into one. It's a wonder he/she/it can get anything done at all considering all its got working against it, yet *God*, it seems, is emphatically convinced that Satan amounts to some really serious market competition...
One of the problems going on here is that it is very difficult to pinpoint any philosophical foundation underscoring many of these protosatanic archetypes. We know a little about Ng's historical station in things which is really quite rich and intriguing, but we don't hear much from Ng regarding very much of anything directly. Because Satan is a *local* archetype, it winds up gathering a lot of focus points in the here and now...it's immediate and appertains to the immediate for better or for worse.
So I don't disagree with what you are asserting I think...I just think that we are dealing with a set of circumstances that makes it more intuitive to most people to speak in terms of Satanism than say, Ngism...even though Ng may be a much better *dark lord archetype* for us to build around than Satan...people at least have some idea what you stand against for instance, though in general they usually don't get what it is you might stand for!
Thus the phrase: *a term of inconvenience*...
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-13-2009, 02:25 PM
Have to head to work, but I just reviewed the entire thread again and I'm taken aback and have to ask:
How come no one's mentioned the Roman Empire at length? During the continued expansion of the empire, various religions were introduced into the fray and subsequently "modified" to fit the larger scheme of religious goings-on throughout the empire (this was often done to make the newly acquired peoples feel a little more at home in their new culture). During this time, Zeus was adopted as Jupiter and many other religious deities were either swallowed whole or mixed in.
Wouldn't this be the time and the place to go about understanding how Ng was recognized as a practicable deity and manipulated to blend in along with all other things cultural as a new addition to the Roman Empire?
The Roman Empire may very well be the time and place where you'll find another piece to the puzzle.
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Wouldn't this be the time and the place to go about understanding how Ng was recognized as a practicable deity and manipulated to blend in along with all other things cultural as a new addition to the Roman Empire?well...this is happening...although Ng's own trail is a lot more complex than Rome alone and seems to encompass an entire *hidden* occult movement that has been going on for a very long time...
but people tracking Ng are definitely interested in its rise to prominence in modern times, if that is what you are saying...
anyway...more on this later I guess.
note: I should perhaps point out that it's a little difficult to say where Ng places in terms of Rome in general...it's almost like he just plain skipped the party, although when you look to Mithrais and assorted Mystery Cults scattered all throughout Roman history, it may just be a matter of Ng operating in the shadows. World Conquest has never really been his game for one thing...we see him more involved in the evolution of Knowledge than the game of Global Domination...wherever the climate shifts to World Domination, we can generally expect Ng to slip quietly out the back door and reposition himself towards the next Mecca of Enlightenment...but this is a complex type of analysis where we are attempting to ascertain, say, where the Cadeuces is travelling through history. It requires that we pinpoint those elements most indicative of Ningishzidda, which is not so easy a task...take Genetic Alchemy for instance...we know this to be one of his definitive characteristics...but how do we track this exactly? He's a tricky one...hard to second-guess but persistently moving all the while.
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-14-2009, 02:32 AM
As far as tracking Ng's role regarding Genetic Alchemy goes, I feel as if Ng has been reduced to a mere symbol that may or may not be called upon to facilitate certain means to production. Serpents intertwining don't necessarily connote a double-helix. They never have necessarily connoted such a thing. We're talking about rhetorical imposition in the form of analogy, and analogy has never purported to carry the weight of truth, but rather the weight of example.
Ng is an example of what might have contributed to the rise of Satan. And you can't logically deduce a mode of transmutation (i.e., Genetic Alchemy) from an example.
Genetic Alchemy sounds very nice, but the only evidence for it appears to have arrived in the form of hints reminiscent of those that mislead frat boys on scavenger hunts. And I apologize for my audacity, but two-dimensional religious symbols don't quite encompass the profundity of DNA.
After twenty-three pages of posts reasserting posts, allow me to play devil's advocate.
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 09:36 AM
Genetic Alchemy sounds very nice, but the only evidence for it appears to have arrived in the form of hints reminiscent of those that mislead frat boys on scavenger hunts. And I apologize for my audacity, but two-dimensional religious symbols don't quite encompass the profundity of DNA.whether two-dimensions, three dimensions or four, iconographic clues are often as good as it gets when tracking very ancient history. One learns to approach these things like a forensic scientist and the process is part intuition and part hard logic.
So your *audacity* is actually more of an *unwillingness* combined with an *unfamiliarity* with that particular kind of detective work I think. It's not my job to teach you that and I also don't think it's my job to convince you of anything at the empirical level.
Clues are clues and if an old myth in itself doesn't seem to fit the DNA parallel, well, the binary hexagrams fit it like a glove and what are hexagrams iconographically? Why, the Ouroboros Serpent, among other things, defined mathematically...and what is at the heart of their origin? Why, Nu Kua, a *Water-Dragon*...just like Tiamat, Apsu, Ningishzidda. Does that *prove* anything? It demonstrates a reasonable symbolic correlation and we have to look to more evidence than this to arrive at any more significant conclusions. But with very powerful archetypes, we needn't prove causation at every pass anyway since many times similar constructs will be drawn independently by different groups of people operating within similar cosmological *grooves*. Analogy, in some instances, is all we can hope to get or is otherwise all we really need to get. It all depends on what we are actually asserting.
You would seemingly know all of this already...so then...what exactly is your point? If you'll pardon my audacity...
I don't see where this *devil's advocate* game is going anywhere particularly useful. If the devil has some point to make, let him make it.
About the only thing I am asserting here is that Ningishzidda is a suitable archetype representing Mutational Alchemy and/or Genetic Alchemy in general.
Others have deemed it to be a *protosatanic* archetype which I see no reason to object to allowing for the fact that Satan is drawn from more than one source alone.
The rest of you will just have to wait for whatever gold-plated *proof* it was that you were somehow erroneously expecting.
As far as tracking Ng's role regarding Genetic Alchemy goes, I feel as if Ng has been reduced to a mere symbol that may or may not be called upon to facilitate certain means to production.*mere symbols* facilitate magickal *production* all the time Logos...your logic in this instance is knotted and reactionary.
I don't believe in the notion of *mere symbols* anyway...I'm a hardcore symbologist so no symbol is *mere* to me...*mirror* maybe...
Maybe you should try to clarify what it is you are actually opposing...right now your arguments come off like an irrational *phobic* reaction of some kind.
m1
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 01:28 PM
It is the method by which Ningishzidda fashions Man that causes us to think in terms of DNA or Genetic Alchemy by the way. So far as we know that language did not exist in ancient Sumer. But as the story goes, Ng took a sampling of human *something* and fused it with a sampling of Annunaki *something* and thereby overcame Man's *stupidity* problem making him unsuitable for the kinds of labor the Annunaki had planned for him...
This infuriated Enlil by the way who disapproved of these methods, so we have our first genetic engineering political quarrel, in effect...
So he didn't just take a lump of mud and issue some incantation over it...his methods, by today's standards, would be called genetic engineering...
why is that so damn hard to grasp?
note: I should clarify that only some accounts posit Ningishzida as the one who actually came up with this solution, but virtually all accounts of the method used emphasize this genetic fusing. Not being an expert in Sumerian I have had to rely on the opinions of others in this respect but even if it were not Ningishzida who devised this method, it wouldn't really matter all that much since he is still a bridge between Man and Gods whose symbol has come to be generally associated to modern medicine today and the double-helix in particular. He is also associated to the Sumerian Tree of Life as a bonus. So in that sense, yes, we may only be talking about a *symbol*, but it is his symbolism in lieu of this creation myth that still qualifies him as an especially good *patron archetype* overseeing Mutational Alchemy today...
No one is saying he invented Mutational Alchemy itself if that is the root of the trouble...only that by some accounts he may have been involved in some form of genetic engineering.
m1
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 03:40 PM
Note: I am told now that Ningishzida's part in the actual creation of Man was chiefly the fabrication of Zecharia Sitchin and has no historical backing, so this needs to be corrected.
Sitchin is unfortunately responsible for a great deal of misinformation regarding Sumerian myths and culture...
Nevertheless, Ningishzida is referred to as the Great Physician and Patron God of Medicine via other sources. I will try to return with some resource material to support that claim...
For the moment I wanted to clear that up, though it doesn't really make any difference to Ng's relevance to DNA, genetics etc...
That he was a god of the underworld and keeper of the gate to (the highest) heaven is not in question historically...
m1
MythMath
06-14-2009, 04:21 PM
...took a sampling of human *something* and fused it with a sampling of Annunaki *something* and thereby overcame Man's *stupidity* problem making him unsuitable for the kinds of labor the Annunaki had planned for him...
This was the first time that I had read that
connection from a source that I trusted...
So I was surprised...
Note: I am told now that Ningishzida's part in the actual creation of Man was chiefly the fabrication of Zecharia Sitchin and has no historical backing, so this needs to be corrected.
Sitchin is unfortunately responsible for a great deal of misinformation regarding Sumerian myths and culture...
m1
Thanks for correcting that...
Now back to considering it a 'tall-tale'... :yes:
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 04:40 PM
I've brought the question of Ng's *physicianship* to the pro's at enenuru.net, so we should hear something back on this before too long...
It doesn't strike me as any huge stretch referring to him as *the patron god of medicine* but I want to know if this can be validated historically...
I'll let us all know when I know...
m1
MythMath
06-14-2009, 04:48 PM
...'tall-tale'...Yeah, I was referring specifically to the 'single-source'
claims of this 'genetic engineering' to transform
the humanoids into smarter worker/slaves...
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 04:53 PM
well, that part is true actually...it just doesn't appear to have been Ng who performed this operation...
see: the Atra-Hasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis)
transcript of story: The Epic of Atrahasis (http://www.livius.org/as-at/atrahasis/atrahasis.html)
perhaps not so much to make them smarter *men*, but to make *men* to begin with, for the purpose of slave labor!
note: kind of sounds like a government plot to me...
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-14-2009, 09:20 PM
So far as we know that language did not exist in ancient Sumer.
m1
Logos, apart from your being an asshole, you appear to have misapprehended the role of "proto-subjectivity" in all of this.
Prior to language, before the brain somehow melded itself to where an ability to produce language had solidified with respect to a specific region of the brain, humankind produced knowledge in the form of auditory hallucinations. These auditory hallucinations predated any notion of god and eventually gave rise to a civilized acceptance of the existence of a god-king. These god-kings, prior to the advent of modern civilizations, were prioritized through the building of temples across from the altars of which statues often stood. There is no evidence that such primitive civilizations honored a specific human being. Rather, this god-king stood tall as a statue-of-a-being-having-never-lived to be honored in the form of sacrifices and offerings. Such civilizations had no leader, but rather communal auditory hallucinations that arrived in the form of an alleged deity saying, "Do this."
Keep in mind, Logos, that language hadn't yet arrived by this point. We're talking about a time between 25,000bc and 10,000bc when people were often so preoccupied by specific tasks, such as sharpening tools, that they understood the notion of "sharper" in terms of a bicameral mind producing auditory hallucinations that enforced a feeling that amounted to "I should make this spearhead sharper." It felt right because the "voice" at that point was designated as that of a deity, when what it really was was a proto-subjective mental reinforcement that "what needs to be done (in this case making a spearhead sharper), needs to be done."
Genetic Alchemy: you purport that it simply sounds nice and nothing more. The problem, Logos, is that we're dealing with a god that goes back as far as a time when pictorial representations gave rise to auditory hallucinations, a time when language hadn't arrived yet--at least not in the sense one could verbally command a fellow citizen to, say, build a temple. Giving the command to build a temple was the sole responsibility of the pre-linguistic, proto-subjective auditory hallucination that the community as a whole respected. There is no evidence of a living king presiding over Aztec, Mayan, Ur, or Eynan civilizations: they took their pre-linguistic orders from entities that had no means of verbal communication in the sense we take it for granted today.
For all we know, Ng (a deity that predates language) originated as an auditory hallucination amongst primitive cultures, one that "voiced" humankind's intrinsic need to change. And maybe that need to change was understood back then in a way we're only beginning to understand today through scientific models of DNA. But that doesn't mean that symbols of intertwining serpents represent DNA. It simply means that the age-old, proto-subjective "voice" of intuition might be pointing us in the right direction yet again.
Does that answer your question, Logos?
-Logos
visceral/spagyrica
06-14-2009, 09:21 PM
Does that answer your question, Logos?
Not quite.
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 11:06 PM
It's easy to lose track of the *proto-subjectivity* issue. thanks for tying that in...
the work of visionaries today is not a whole lot easier than it has ever been, save perhaps for those who manage to channel it all into film or fiction or something. Explanations are awkward where the mind is already taxed beyond its rational limitations and language...as advanced as it may be...is still light years behind raw projective insight...
So there are limits as to what we can *say* regarding archetypes whose whole expression is not yet done with Man...in any case I think it can at least be resolved that Ng is rooted in medical science long before there even was such a thing as science per se. Hopefully I will be able to report back soon with something useful in this area...
We do at least have good reason to think that selective breeding was understood even at the earliest stages of Sumerian culture. It's one of the first things people seem to have sorted out after fire and tools and textiles. Animal husbandry was a source of basic survival and then income by the time of cities. I have always thought that Alchemy became set apart from Magick as the keeper of wisdom pertaining to things both material and medical in scope. If this is so, then a different kind of mysticism is bound to spring up around this particular kind of knowledge...a wide range of knowledge from forging metals to glues and glazes to healing potions to sacramental wines and more.
Beer was a big deal in ancient Egypt for instance...at one time the knowledge of Beer is said to have saved the human race from extinction...the gods like beer it seems... While beer is not so terribly complicated, there's a lot of ways to do it wrong and also ways to get better vs worse results...so a kind of mysticism always surrounds these things quite different than ceremonial magick, yet always linked. My instincts are that Ningishzida resides on this side of the human *knowledge* coin and is more connected to alchemical science than administrative *magick*, which is very often what early priesthoods were actually doing for a living.
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-14-2009, 11:39 PM
Well, if Ng is a proto-subjective deity, then does it not follow that any connection he might have to Genetic Alchemy is an intuitive one along the lines of a god-like auditory hallucination telling you to make your spearhead "sharper"?
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-14-2009, 11:55 PM
The only problem I have with this is writing itself I think...we actually aren't talking all that far back in time when we are discussing Sumer itself...5-6000 years maybe and writing is already in use. I think that the timeline on the bicameral mind theory is not quite right...yet we also know that many of the godforms stretch back a great deal further...back to the time of spears as you say...
But you may be right...I need more time to weigh that one I think...it is at least 1/2 right I would say at this juncture...
edit: I guess one of the things I am saying here is that I can't altogether rule out the possibility that people may have known about DNA on some level at least. We see more actual evidence of this in ancient China for instance. DNA science as we know it today is rooted in the electron microscope really...if we didn't have this we would have no genetic science per se. But people may have had other means of exploring the microcosmic realms prior to this. We can't use Western civilization as a gauge of what was possible worldwide since Western civilization lagged way behind the east in many areas. It has been suggested by some scholars that some form of subatomic *viewing* may have been accomplished in antiquity, particularly in the east. So I am not prepared to toss that one out without a better grasp of the technologies that may have been in use at the time.
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-15-2009, 12:03 AM
Well, the bicameral theory is contingent upon location. For example, the Aztecs were largely bicameral when they boasted a large military and yet somehow were overrun by a small force of 150 Spaniards who raped and pillaged what appears to have been a willing group of men and women. Bicamerality appears to be the only explanation for the defeat of the Aztecs. So, here we're talking about a bicameral civilization well into the second millennium. Whereas the Eynan's broke away from bicamerality around 8,000bc.
Such is relativity.
Edit: Relativity considering the Eynan's are the descendants of those who're presently incapable of governing themselves in the sense shit's gone bad as bad can be in Darfur. They might as well still be bicameral.
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-15-2009, 12:29 AM
yeah...it's a chaotic map at best.
but here's an example of something that doesn't make a whole lot of rational sense. Why did the Chinese sages settle on 64 hexagrams, when they might just as easily opted for 5 or 7 or 8 line structures? Yet it takes the 6-line structure to balance with the DNA/RNA mathematical matrixes exactly.
So the question is, did they know this somehow? Was there some way they may have been able to confirm this that we don't understand today? There is a school of thought that says something very unusual occurred about 6-8000 years ago where people's consciousnesses experienced a radical leap ahead and - if anything - has been slowly slipping backwards as technology has been inching its way forward...During this *interim* period many things were captured that we have subsequently had to rediscover the hard way since that time...
But for the most part...not really knowing any better...I would be mostly content to agree with your intuitive theory on this...
I am just not 100% convinced that we are not actually recovering a lot of knowledge we already had via a different set of *spears*...
note: the Aztecs were mostly wiped out by smallpox btw...it would have been better for them to murder the Spanish outright but their own prophecies tied their hands.
I am not so sure we can chalk this up to the bicameral mind theory.
m1
visceral/spagyrica
06-15-2009, 02:07 AM
Maybe this is an interim. And maybe Ng is more about rediscovery right now than he ever was about anything else, even during his heyday.
-Logos
m1thr0s
06-15-2009, 07:52 AM
there are those who would certainly agree Logos although I don't quite know how this works in terms of the clock rotation mechanism itself...but you will hear it said that we are coming up on the Aeon of Ningishzidda for instance...I'm not clear who came up with this or why but have felt that it may in fact be accurate somehow. I have more confidence in this than, say, the Aeon of Horus for instance, even though it can be argued that both things could be true at the same time...my *gut feeling* is that we have already passed through the Horus door about as much as we really need to, whereas Ng is something we have been poised to approach but haven't really done so - it's a question of how and what things may tend to manifest under different light sources I think. With Horus it seems to be a lot about war and technology and we have certainly been on that roller-coaster ride forever (think about it - when have we NOT been in the age of *war & science*?)...I feel like with Ningishzidda it would be a lot more *biotech* in scope and also be dealing a lot more in *cosm* somehow...possibly more about time-tech or something - dimensionality - just impressions so far...
partial update: *madness* at enenuru.net reminds me than Ninĝišzida was the son of Ninazu, whose name literally translates to *Lord Healer*. Ninazu was a benevolent Underworld god, like his son, whose emblem was also the Serpent, although Ninĝišzida appears to be the earliest known record of entwined serpents (well, in Sumer at least). He does not think there are any references identifying Ninĝišzida as *the patron god of medicine* per se but thinks it more likely that he would have been regarded as *the lord of wisdom*. Medicine clearly runs in his immediate family notwithstanding, so the search continues...
I would think it unlikely that the son would somehow displace the father insofar as title goes...the gods are not like humans in this respect...if you already have a *patron god of medicine*, you don't need another one so long as the first one is still alive and kicking...so being Ninazu's son may be as good as it gets regarding actual title. It still places him squarely within the healing arts in general.
m1
Going back to the initial foray into the assertion that "Ningishzidda has nothing to do with Satan" put forth by Logos:
First of all, Ningishzidda is a cthonic deity which is very Satanic. Secondly he is a deity of heaven (sky) residing (actually trapped) in the underworld.
Connotations and parallels to Lucifer are indisputable. References are found in this thread.
Thank you for your questions, Logos.
I posted the cuneiform for Ningishzidda's name several times on this and other forums, which I received from Frank over at Enenuru, a man who specializes in cuneiform writing. I have attached it here for thoroughness. It's almost like yours. Bill (us4-he2-gal2) and Frank (Sheshki) are always willing to lend encouragement to any amateur cuneiform writer. (often this borders on harassment but they mean well) :yes:
1023
Also, Logos, you said that the caduceus is not a double helix. Of course it is. I think what you meant is, does it equate to a symbol of DNA? (also a double-helix) There's no proof. We have only instinct to guide us. I personally think it does not equal a DNA strand but is more cosmic, signifying not just DNA but the plasmic universe - but since all disease is *really* significantly rooted in DNA - why would Ningishzidda be *god of physicians* and not be master of genetic manipulation? If anyone buffs up on the latest genetic science we learn DNA is not stationary, it changes and holds the forward path to immortality in its enginery. The cup of Ningishzidda at Lagash is dedicated to Ningishzidda for the prolongation of his life - out of all the things the King could ask for not victory in battle, power, strength, wealth - simply life.
So as a Satanist I really dig this lord of life thing as you can see, it's important.
m1thr0s
06-15-2009, 10:31 AM
oh there it is! thanks naomi...I was looking all over the place for that one. I don't get the first character at all...I will need to research this a bit more...
it's a little disturbing what a small group enenuru is...they are all like super-geniuses or something and nobody is paying any attention to them at all...
sounds all too familiar...
m1
partial update: *madness* at enenuru.net reminds me than Ninĝišzida was the son of Ninazu, whose name literally translates to *Lord Healer*. Ninazu was a benevolent Underworld god, like his son, whose emblem was also the Serpent, although Ninĝišzida appears to be the earliest known record of entwined serpents (well, in Sumer at least). He does not think there are any references identifying Ninĝišzida as *the patron god of medicine* per se but thinks it more likely that he would have been regarded as *the lord of wisdom*. Medicine clearly runs in his immediate family notwithstanding, so the search continues...
I would think it unlikely that the son would somehow displace the father insofar as title goes...the gods are not like humans in this respect...if you already have a *patron god of medicine*, you don't need another one so long as the first one is still alive and kicking...so being Ninazu's son may be as good as it gets regarding actual title. It still places him squarely within the healing arts in general.
m1
madness is one of the most stringent researchers at Enenuru and I had forgotten of Ninazu's title. Damn. Ningishzidda's whole family is part and parcel to the whole business of medicine but also *fertility*. Ningishzidda is mentioned primarily as a *magician* and a *warrior* this is from the cuneiform. Along with this the adjectives, mighty, valiant, pure...a *pure magician*. Please see my list of names (http://enenuru.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=expel&action=display&thread=100&page=3#1749)derived from Sumerian literature.
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.4.19.2&display=Crit&charenc=gcirc#
Because Ninazu is patron of medicine, it's plausible Ningishzidda is an extension of Ninazu's authority - this doesn't diminish Ningishzidda it just means his son is possibly more specialized. Ningishzidda is a Warrior/Magician - this is indisputable in the cuneiform - so within the context of healing what does this connotate? Beats me...
Hindu gods follow a similar form - all emanate from parabrahman (ultimate boundless reality) and expand based on their qualities which sometimes interlink with original parabrahman as was the case with Durga/Chandi in the Vedas - who was superior to her "creator gods" in every sense...their heroine as a matter of fact.
Interesting exploration...
yes they are all very smart but that's how it is in history business - anthropology, paleontology, you name it...it's all *occult* so yeah...
However that doesn't stop any of us from having *fun*
I come from a family of very successful people and know all too well money almost never equates to any sort of real happiness - it never will. Survival is a different matter of course. Anyways soooo off-topic.... :)
Nice with the cuneiform Naomi!
There's no proof. We have only instinct to guide us. I personally think it does not equal a DNA strand but is more cosmic, signifying not just DNA but the plasmic universe...
Well said, and I think it is the same with the spiral/golden ratio (which can be viewed everywhere in nature/society) as it is with double-helix/caduceus etc.
I don't think it is a coincidence, same as it is not a coincidence that the single eye is so prevalent in various religions etc.
"As a rule the improbability of a series of meaningful coincidences (i.e., of identical meaning) increases with the number of its individual occurrences." - C.G. Jung
Ng could have been represented as an elephant or a wolf or whatever, but it wasn't. Neither of these animals fit the symbolism that a serpent has. It could not have been any other form regardless if Ng is a figment of someones imagination or a real entity - or both.
:deveye:
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