Ningishzidda: The First Satan?

[m1thr0s]

Ningishzidda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida)
http://abrahadabra.com/images/Ng01.gif
Relief impression of the royal libation cup of King Gudea of Lagash (Sumer), ca 2000 BC.
Depicting Ningishzida in his/her TwinSerpent form. article (http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/TowerOfBabel.htm)

Every now and then I get pulled away from my main focus of Abrahadabra and Mutational Alchemy by a mystery so profound that I am compelled to try to get to the bottom of it. I initially ran into Ningishzidda researching the Caduceus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus) and its roots of which the above icon is the oldest known version. I didn't think too much about it until a few years later when it came up again in a conversation regarding the historical roots of Satan. Getting the exact low-down on Ningishzidda (Ng for short) is not an altogether easy task as there are various forms it has assumed and there appear to be at least 2 distinct forms stemming from the Sumerian culture itself...one of which is clearly masculine and the other feminine. We also have to contend with competing interpretations from different scholars, some of which are starkly opposed to each other.

I am not going to try to resolve Ningishzidda's diverse definitions in this one thread since it would simply take too long. As regarding the character of Satan, our prinicipal interest lies with the Serpent from Genesis and the stark parallels to be found in the earlier myths of the Sumerians. An excellent article discussing these parallels can be found here (http://www.bibleorigins.net/ningishzida.html). The parallels don't end here however but get progressively stronger the harder we delve into it. It should be remembered when examining all of this that while the symbolism of the serpent in Genesis is true to its Hebrew origins, the name (or term) Satan never actually appears in the original text. This is a Christian association that was added on much later.

It's a little hard to be sure what the architects of this connection actually had in mind, but there can be little doubt that it was their intention to equate the character of Satan with the symbolism of the Serpent, which then, presumably, made it much easier to villify. But serpentine symbolism is much older than Christianity itself and has almost universally been a symbolism depicting the healing arts & sciences in one fashion or another, so it was a risky business perpetrating this intense negativity under this particular iconography, virtually guaranteed to backfire somewhere down the line. Snakes, like Spiders and Rats, are of a class of lifeforms that people have historically forged powerful phobias around with very little impetus. Snakes in particular have a longstanding association to human sexuality, so it is not a great stretch to imagine that these things may have factored into the choice of a symbolism of ultimate evil.

I have discussed all of this in a fair amount of depth on several other forums, so I am mainly interested in preserving its general outline here on these forums. This is a powerful topic and sets an excellent precedent for the whole notion of "protosatanism" in general. Whether we are operating within the framework of LaVeyan Satanism or Theistic Satanism or Traditional Satanism or any other branch of Satanism, a certain amount of confusion persists as to who or what Satan actually is. The protosatanic take on this is to attack the symbolism (including etymology) associated to the construct and attempt to cross-reference that symbolism everywhere it might happen to be found. From this we may hope to arrive at a definition of Satan that meets with a more universal criterion, rather than having to confine ourselves to either spoon-fed definitions (that make very little sense) or else *personal* definitions rooted in the enigmatic to begin with.

What follows is a partial list of links to Ningishzidda that may be of some use to anyone wanting to start their own investigation. There are a number of alternate spellings and I am not going to try to list them all. I am partial to *Ningishzidda* for purely personal reasons since it classes as an 11-letter word (viewing *sh* as a shin) whose notaricon (vowels removed) adds to 418 = Abrahadabra. The proof of this is here: N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418. Nevertheless, the more accepted spelling is Nin + Gish + Zida = Ningishzida, so you will tend to find more links under that spelling.

Search Tip:
Other spellings will include Ningishzida, Ningizzida, Ningiszida,Ninjiczida, Ninñišzidda, etc...
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Overview:
http://www.halexandria.org/dward376.htm

DNA and Ningishzidda:
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=164905;article=1923;title=Grid %20POINT


Generations of the Annunaki:
A Time Line Of Events...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANUTimeLine.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANUTimeLine.htm)

Generation No. 1...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU01.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU01.htm)

Generation No. 2...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU02.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU02.htm)

Generation No. 3...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU03.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU03.htm)

Generation No. 4...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU04.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU04.htm)

Generation No. 5...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU05.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU05.htm)

Generation No. 6...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU06.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU06.htm)

Generation No. 7...
http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU07.htm (http://www.motherbedford.com/ANU07.htm)

Sumerian Resource:
http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/ (http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/)

Sumerian Lexicon:
http://www.sumerian.org/sumerlex.htm (http://www.sumerian.org/sumerlex.htm)

Sumerian Font:
http://gmalingue.free.fr/UrIII/UrIII/ (http://gmalingue.free.fr/UrIII/UrIII/)

Ng Iconography:
source: http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/genesisgenesis.htm (http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/genesisgenesis.htm)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Serpentningishzida.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/Serpentningishzida.html)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Ningishzidabasrelief.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/Ningishzidabasrelief.html)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/cherubim.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/cherubim.html)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Cherubimsoutharabia.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/Cherubimsoutharabia.html)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Sacredtreeassyrian.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/Sacredtreeassyrian.html)

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Serpent Symbolism:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent)

Mesopotamia Overview:
http://www.geocities.com/darkmage71/myth/middleeastern/mesopotamian (http://www.geocities.com/darkmage71/myth/middleeastern/mesopotamian)

Genetic Seeding etc:
http://www.soulinvitation.com/enki/ (http://www.soulinvitation.com/enki/)

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Dictionary & Encyclopedia Ditties:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9055882 (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9055882)
http://www.bibleorigins.net/ningishzida.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/ningishzida.html)
http://home.earthlink.net/~templezagduku/ningishzida.html (http://home.earthlink.net/~templezagduku/ningishzida.html)

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Ningishzida & Hermes:
http://www.richeast.org/htwm/hermes/hermes.html (http://www.richeast.org/htwm/hermes/hermes.html)
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/lords/lordninazu.html (http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/lords/lordninazu.html)

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Ningishzida & Mutational Alchemy:
http://survive2012.com/dragon_myths_5.php (http://survive2012.com/dragon_myths_5.php)
http://www.alchemylab.com/origins_of_alchemy.htm (http://www.alchemylab.com/origins_of_alchemy.htm)

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Annunaki in General: (with at least some reference to Ng)
http://www.geocities.com/digital3v14/texts/ancients.htm (http://www.geocities.com/digital3v14/texts/ancients.htm)

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Ningishzida & Related Serpent Symbolism:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm)
http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r073101d.shtml (http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r073101d.shtml)

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edit: I'm making this topic a sticky. I spent almost 3 years moderating the Satanism forum on a very busy discussion board and I'm not about to let this one turn into that one. Ng sets a very potent standard of what Satanism can be so I'm positioning that standard shotgun on this forum. I believe in the very best that Satanism/Protosatanism has to offer and that's about all of Satanism/Protosatanism I actually do believe in. If that means nobody else posts here, so be it. I'll add stuff in occasionally just to keep the trail warm...

This stuff really isn't for everybody anyway, though it does, in fact, include all people.

m1thr0s

[omniprosopus]

wow. patron god of alchemy and infernalism(?) all rolled into one. dangerous character.
wouldn't want to cross this one I think. very interesting information.

-omni

[Kain]

Great accumulation of resources, and especially useful for such a not commonly discussed subject. Thanks for posting this m1thr0s. Even though I've read most of these in the past, it'll probably take a while for it all to truly sink in...
wow. patron god of alchemy and infernalism(?) all rolled into one. dangerous character.
wouldn't want to cross this one I think. very interesting information.Lol, I guess so omniprosopus...Ningishzidda is a very interesting subject with many vital ramiffications found not only in the field of Satanic/Protosatanic interest, but a lot more really. As you said, Alchemy is also directly related to it, as are other fields such as that of the genetic code itself. We alredy know that the very structure of DNA is very akin to that of the chinese system of the I Ching...also, the serpent symbolism brings heavy parralels to be found with Kundalini Yoga (which can also be considered a "medical" art of sorts), and other similar systems and structures. I guess it's notaricon adding to 418 is just another boon of sorts considering the parallels laid out so far, but a very powerful one indeed. So this is a very important subject I think, and one we can say to only having barely scratched it's surface until now...

Kain

[Amur]

This might go a bit symbolical allegory but imo the whole thing started to crack up when the snakes got separated from each other creating a fine polarity division like the symbolism of jesus dying at the cross(+&-), 'for everyones sins', gee I wonder who added that to the story. Anyway, looking at how polarized things are it's quite scary to see that Ningishzidda is obviously not present in this world even though it is by definition his birth-right to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_in_mythology

Cats bless Wikipedia :D

[m1thr0s]

That's one of the best little articles on Serpentine symbology I've ever seen.
Thanks for the link Amur.

m1thr0s

[Amur]

For myself and from my own exploration, the snake reptile-brain has an apetite which is pretty much unnourished, which means that it can be used to set a direction with and it will go a long way with it alone. The bird-'reptile'-brain comes next. It's often depicted that the bird will catch the snake for some reason yet unknown. Perhaps the snake ran aloof to begin with causing a lot of abnormalities, as looking at NG concept, it is very much intact and perfect in itself already.

A question pops up, how will people get back to NG and to their trueselves.

[m1thr0s]

A question pops up, how will people get back to NG and to their trueselves.So...you call that question a popup, do you? lol...
As we know, only cats know for sure and they absolutely refuse to talk about it...damn them...
furry little freaks, the lot...rofl...

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

I'm going to be completely honest here. I've never really understood any of this Ng stuff.

[m1thr0s]

I'm going to be completely honest here. I've never really understood any of this Ng stuff.Well there's a fair amount of information on it so I don't know what you don't understand exactly. It's an archetype like Set or Lucifer or any other really. It's very old, corresponds to a whole class of serpentine archetypes and is especially linked to Alchemy since Ng was the genetic alchemist in the Annunaki pantheon...created the human race itself through advanced dna splicing of some kind...What do you mean when you say you don't understand it? Don't understand what it is or don't understand why it matters or what?

In a lot of ways I think I recognized what was going on with Ng from the very first moment I saw it, probably owing to the fact that I have been steeped in serpentine symbolism for so many years already and nearly everything I have been drawn to the strongest has been wrapped in this symbolism somehow. One has to stand back from one's intuitions a bit in order to communicate those insights to others and in the case of Ningishzida this can be a little difficult since the whole storyline seems to change markedly from source to source. If you add it all together there might be dozens of variations on this theme in Sumerian (or Sumerian-based) literature alone! Yet, throughout it all, the symbolism itself rings loud and clear and can be found all over the place from Sumeria, through Babylon, into Egypt, Greece, Persia, Asia, Meso- America...virtually everywhere you look.

So there's a lot to this "Ng stuff" to not understand. One probably needs to begin by getting more specific.

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

Well, I didn't really understand what it was and therefore I can't understand why it matters. First off, most of the Ng conversation on OF was begun by SatsUrn (RedStar) and I didn't understand 98% of what he posted (although it must have been pretty good because everyone else seemed to eat it up like candy). I followed a link RedStar gave me once that was supposed to sort of explain it, but it read like a Sci-Fi Channel original movie. It was like somebody hadn't thought through the script completely before publishing it. I don't know if the original story is that screwed up or if that was just the webmaster's interpretation.

On top of that, while I do certainly believe that ancient people were very advanced and even knew stuff that we don't understand, I can't really just accept (without some kind of actual ancient text to read for myself) that Sumerians knew a thing about DNA splicing. Everything I've ever read on the subject seems to have already been interpreted by people and frankly, I don't trust those people to not be nutcases. I want to get to the original storyline without all the talk of modern science so I can decide for myself. I have yet though to find a site that isn't either completely over my head or wasn't written by people I would be inclined to think are crazy.

Some of stuff on the Sumerian site I looked at about Cain and Abel was interesting but as soon as people start talking about space crafts and aliens, I lose interest because it sounds like somebody just has an overactive imagination. If I could read it the way the Sumerians told the story, maybe I could figure it out for myself. If I could read what exactly Ng was about without everyone else's opinions and interpretations, etc. I think I might be able to take it more seriously.

[Anibis]

lol, the bane of my existence as an esoteric philosopher. Danistry, you just refuse to admit that the world is run by shape shifting lizards from Yugoth that landed in Sumeria and formed the illuminati. Shame on you for being a dupe of the NWO. Should you, on the other hand, wish to be enlightened, I might be willing to sell you the secrets of Dianetics!

Hear, hear. Lets have a list of really solid primary sources for Ningishzidda. I am more willing to believe that the Sumerians knew a thing or too about advanced eugenics, as for actual gene splicing, we shall see...

-Ibisis-

Edit: Actually the list of sources above looks fairly extensive, so I'll explore that first before acting like nobody's given us any sources. I would though like it to be spelled out what we do actually know, and what the nature of the evidence is: Text, Pottery, whatnot... Okey...

[m1thr0s]

I seriously doubt that the Sumerians had a word for DNA specifically. Selective breeding was, however, an important factor in the rise of civilization, so it's very likely they did have their own version of genetic engineering. Different aspects of important cultural knowledge were typically embedded in the imagery of their godforms. There's not a lot more to it than that. In the Sumerian creation story, humankind is not just created from fairy dust or mud or whatever but came about as an expression of this breeding technology. Ng was given the task of producing an animal smart enough to serve as a suitable workforce, and humankind was the result...part animal, part god in essence.

I'm not real keen on all the UFO stuff either but it's not limited to the Sumerians. The Egyptian gods arrived in a "boat of creation" and Enoch presumably took off from earth in a so-called "translated city" and on and on. In ancient times, the "gods" were almost always asssociated to the stars of heaven so that would seem to open the door to all this UFO conspiracy stuff...for those who are into it that is...

I enjoyed my limited discussions with SatsUrn but I probably only ever caught about half of what he went on about. My interest in Ningishzidda may have been sparked with these discussions but is not based upon them at all. I am fascinated with an archetype that is an "underworld" form on the one hand connected to the Sumerian equivalent of the Tree of Life and clearly linked to alchemy on the other...not only on the basis of its original storyline, but also extending through time in the parallel symbolism of the serpent, or winged serpent and/or dragons everywhere. But I feel as though I have only just scratched the surface of it all in reality.

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

In the Sumerian creation story, humankind is not just created from fairy dust or mud or whatever but came about as an expression of this breeding technology. Ng was given the task of producing an animal smart enough to serve as a suitable workforce, and humankind was the result...
m1thr0s

Do you know what the actual source of this legend is? Is it on a tablet, or what? I am interested but would like to know where exactly we know this from.
-Ibisis-

[m1thr0s]

Try Googling "Sumerian Creation Ningishzida" or combinations thereof.
I have seen actual translated texts and there are several classics. I don't have a lot of time for this today though...
I'll try to help with digging out the more scholastic stuff a bit later.

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

See, that makes a whole lot more sense now. They were breeding...not doing labwork. Of course, I had a feeling it must have been that way all along. As far aliens and UFOs, I don't see it like that. A "boat of creation"...who says that's a UFO? To me, UFOs are based in scientific ideas...a boat of creation may come from another world and go to another world, but not in the same way as a spaceship.

[m1thr0s]

A certain fascination exists among many people as to how ancient people might have known things that they seemingly should not have known. I have seen both very interesting and very ridiculous theories put forward along these lines. While I am not in a good position to document this stuff right now, one of the more interesting theories I have seen put forward has to do with the fact that many ancient cultures were a lot more aggressively involved in trance-state technologies than we are today and certain knowledge was often obtained as a result of being more adept at a kind of tool we no longer value very highly today, now that we have "cold hard science" to lick our wounds and fix every little problem.

Knowledge obtained by such a radically different means would also have taken on a radically different form and there might have been a whole different kind of checks and balances that kept it all running smoothly. It is possible that certain things were known that "shouldn't have been" known by todays measures but since they may have been using a whole different measures to begin with, who can really say for sure. Today the Microscope rules the world, but the ancients might have access to a kind of Macroscope we no longer use today. It's hard to say for sure, but the theory in itself fits a lot of other facts we do know about ancient civilizations, and even remnant civilizations that still cling to what is left of the old ways today.

So I am not prepared to say that ancient people did not have access to certain advanced scientific principles, but I do think it's fair to say they would not have been understood in the same kind of way that we understand things today and it's very likely that most of that knowledge gradually died off as a new way of looking at knowledge itself gradually gained sway with people.

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

Well, people tend to forget that ancient people were working with the same brains we have. They weren't stupid. They had the same potential we have. They just applied it differently. I just don't buy the idea that they must have had alien contact to do what they did. In fact, I think that's kind of insulting to humanity, really.

[m1thr0s]

I'm sure this is all a detour, but it's an interesting one that will eventually wind its way back. I was going to post an article called the Dogon Theory of Creation but it's oppressively long for a cut-and-paste job so I made a little pdf file which can be scanned here (http://abrahadabra.com/pdf/Dogon.Creation.Mythos.pdf).

The point I wanted to make about all of this is that Carl Sagan's take on the whole thing is very typical of modern science zealots in general who automatically assume that (1) because the Dogon priests tell him they got all this information from an race of beings not of this world and (2) because there is no known way for them to have gleaned this information by any other known scientific means, this must necessarily imply that an alien race of beings came all the way to earth just to engage in a little scientific tete-a-tete with an obscure and isolated human culture! It never occurs to him that the Dogon almost certainly derived this information from trance work on some level and that while the information itself may in fact be sound, the symbolism it is wrapped in is not so very different than the symbolism common to all ancient people, ie, gods, angels, mysterious beings from nether regions and so on. These are archetypes, plain and simple. It is the arrogance of modern science to assume without thinking that its kind of knowledge is the only knowledge that can actually explain anything real in nature.

The ancients didn't have microscopes and computers and all this other modern science stuff so they used the stuff they had and in certain instances, under the right conditions, used by the right people in the right kinds of ways, these "old ways" were every bit as impressive as anything modern science is capable of pulling out of its hat...sometimes a great deal moreso in fact. But the world as a whole has mostly moved on from these old ways and has no real memory of those ways any longer. Until we begin to get a better handle on the science of knowledge itself, there will continue to be a great deal of ridiculous misinterpretation of the knowledge of ancient people.

m1thr0s

[Amur]

Lol. I'm probably a hybrid from outerspace with somekind of set mission here. The information blew into my consciousness from a Gamma-ray burst originating near the beginning time of the universe. Whatever the heck this is supposed to mean :D Then again... The flipside of the coin might be that I'm just crazy *grin*.

Seen some pictures of supposedly very old cave-paintings where extraterrestrials gave somekind of stone-disc to the people. Can't remember what it was about and might as well been fake. But in my own humble opinion there are too many pointers around the globe to something outside that it is either somekind of archetypal thing inside the human mind or then somekind of external event which has taken place.

When I come to think about it, it's like MiB2. Aliens from all over the place experiencing life as a human. Too bad many of them go into their heavenly 'vibe' loosing touch with the planet itself lol.

You might want to evoke the Sumerian Gods and see what they have to say.

[Seipiriz]

It's an archetype like Set or Lucifer


It is very intersting your option of belief archetypes...Your option coresponds with the one of my most valuable professors back in school times...The thread is deep and interesting too..

[m1thr0s]

It really is a fascinating mystery and Danisty has brought up some very important points here as well. We have to employ a certain amount of sophistication in our thinking when we say things like Ng = Genetic Alchemy for instance. I happen to think that this is a very true statement but the reasons I think this are conditional, having to do with how that symbolism filters down to today's language and knowledge. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ng was some sort of clinical DNA scientist per se or that the Sumerians were involved in anything resembling modern DNA research etc... And yet there are numerous indicators that genetics itself was understood on some very sophisticated levels by ancient peoples. How this is possible we don't really know but we are essentially the same animal today as we were 5-6000 years ago and the whole process of "knowing ourselves" will have led to many of the same kinds of conclusions I think. But we have to remember that the ancients got there in different ways than we would get there today...

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

I'm also interested in this as I have already said in the first incarnation of this thread.

Could you maybe (if you like) share more of your insights pertaining the question that has led you to this character viz the caduceus, and its role?

I myself see it generally speaking as the staff of the shaman by aid of which he travels to the "outside" and through a re-interpretation of himself and his culture he brings with him new technology, healing and advice to his society. This re-interpretation could eg be (if hes a man): his woman-nature (see Ngs androgyny etc) or animal, madman and simply "all man is not" and all new insights; of course the snake is also a symbol for re-birth, (cyclical) renewal, the horns denounce a master of creation&duality/this world...and one can still see parts of this traveler/emissary-motive in Hermes.

Another interesting question of course is how much of that DNA-connection was actually conscious knowledge to the Sumerians (to us today its naturally very obvious)...and another could be the question of "water": or whatever it was that was held in Gudeas cup, and its implications...?

[Seipiriz]

Another thing which is very interesting is what was told before about divine archetypes...

In the most religious systems concerning polytheism there are godly stereotypes to be found such as the mother godess( Hera, Magna Mater, Isis etc) , the creator god (Hephastus, Ra, Dunan) ,the masculin god leader (Zeus, Odin, Wotan) and the god of trickery and change (Locky, Hermes and Thoth)...

As humanity with the turning of time, realised that the symbol of God that was used to make things happen that man believed he could not, could in fact concentrate all powers in one symbol, God became more abstract and faceless... We then reach the state of monotheism were archetypes take the place of the stereotypes and the abstract symbols are just two: The stereotype of Light, the God creator who is good, caring and ever powerful and the stereotype of Darkness the God destructor who is the incarnation of evil etc etc...

These stereotypes have a dual purpose 1) To examplify the society's appropriate behaviour and what happens if you do not follow and 2) To play the role of what man believes that he cannot do with his own power and do it for him after the proper imbuing of the symbol "God" with the proper energy..

The next step of humanity is what we now face as Atheism, a state of non believing , a state when humanity realises the big game of control and that the power lies within and needs no symbols to function...

Next stop : Autotheism

[m1thr0s]

that's one of the more interesting breakdowns of monotheism I have seen in awhile. I have often wondered what was really behind the need to consolidate the gods in this way, since it sacrifices a lot just in terms of the pure art and joy of a more diverse range of godforms. yet the need was apparently stronger to break the spell of dependance itself, although it seems to have largely tranferred it from one symbolism to another.

In atheism I think we do find a sort of blanket rejection of all symbols but it fails to account for the fact that not all symbols are created equal. Some symbols are intrinsically instructional in nature and are thus a language system in their own right...one we cannot logically dispense with and still have somewhere to go. So atheism has this tendency to declare its freedom only to hit a wall of stagnation promptly thereafter.

Perhaps in autotheism what we actually see is a retreival of those bits that actually serve us in a more direct sort of way, giving us the freedom to both engage and disengage from these symbols at will...

m1thr0s

[Seipiriz]

In atheism I think we do find a sort of blanket rejection of all symbols but it fails to account for the fact that not all symbols are created equal


I very much agree with you and to be honest I think that the phase of atheism is a very difficult and important state... In this state humanity must see that change should come in measures and that symbols as you say are not created equal . In this state humanity craves for guidance through research, knowledge and spirituality ...No , not all symbols are equal, so humanity must retrieve those symbols created for guidance, the symbols I call neutral symbols and utilise them as tools and not as dogmas...

What I fear most is that humanity might not be able to realsie that in the rampage of atheistic destruction...

[Anibis]

Hear hear. I like your breakdown as regards Monotheism. I'd like to add a slant to it. I'd say that part of that evolution had a lot to do with the tools and technologies available to the cultures in question. This pertains most notable to the primary communicative tools, ie writing and the alphabet. The cultures who were most steeped in polytheism typically used pictographic writing. As the phonetic alphabet began to be employed, cultures leaned more towards monotheism. The development of the printing press, I would say showed the re-producability of writing (and thus it's 'inauthenticity') and inaugurated the slow rise of atheism. Perhaps with the media we are currently employing we are moving more towards autotheism. Marshall Macluhan figured we were re-entering a shamanistic sort of perceptive state. It stands to reason now with the flood of information and technique, some better than others, that the stance with the most 'survival value' is the one that allows itself to sift through, select and integrate the symbols which are the 'truest'.
-Ibisis-
P.S. This evolution I think is even more interesting when we look at cultures that instead of adopting the phonetic alphabet continued with and refined the pictographic form. Perhaps that accounts for certain of the inventive aptitudes of the Chinese?
-

[Kain]

That's a great point Ibisis. I hadn't really looked at this matter through the scope of language.

Kain

[Seipiriz]

Yes I think you are quite right Ibisis and I would like to point out that the phonetic alphabet was originally Found in the coasts of Mediteranian especially to civilizations with growing trade routes..

[Anibis]

The Pheonicians (Phonetic) were the first to perfect it, though the Egyptians were working on it, and had achieved at least a partially phonetic system, called Hieratic. interestingly, from what I understand the Mayan script is similar to this hybrid phonetic/iconic alphabet. It's interesting that the Egyptian monotheisms were attempts that never quite took hold, while the Hebrew monotheism (And Hebrew is founded in a big way on the Pheonician alphabet), was the first to really pull it off, so to speak.
-Ibisis

[Kuroyagi]

So now for "autotheism", the present state of affairs and the nearer future: its a logical development of the hypocritical triad of modern simplicity whose major components are: democracy, science, protestantism (leading religion ad absurdum by religious means)- with the inbuilt system of self-gratification, modernism and Enlightenment upstartism. Its most prominent representative is the USA (a highly artifical construct) from where it has infested the whole planet. To picture this modern simplicity, one need only look at exports like coke and buggers who are composed of the simple culinary triad- salt, fat, sugar (other exports of simplicity are eg rock 'n roll or moving pictures)...to these all other flavours are reduced and complexity is more and more simplified and made functional...sad, isnt it?

Fortunately even the most simplifying and primitive developments contain the seeds of their opposites already within them...:D

p.s. or are we off-topic already?

[Seipiriz]

The Pheonicians (Phonetic) were the first to perfect it, though the Egyptians were working on it, and had achieved at least a partially phonetic system, called Hieratic.


Exactly! And they were both mercantile people colonizing the meditteranian coasts..The Phoenicians were also rumored to have sailed all way round africa to create better maps..

[Okazaki Castle]

Yes, by Zeus, ole Ningi was a most complex character! Takes a lot to even begin to understand him I would say... Imagine rebelling against thine own Father, he who created you and bestowed you with all your gifts and everything you were. Wouldst that not be the heights of arrogance? By Chronos, his Father must have been a real d*ckhead to warrant such revolution!!

Rather like the old YHWH I believ m1thr0s. I recall on the old OF thread 'The Two YHWH'S' you said that the tetragrammattic formula of YHWH was pretty much essential to any alchemical work and that it was pretty much impossible to do anything without including it. Yet recently on a Magic Catastrophe thread you said that both YHWH and Allah do not exist for you, or at all. Consequently one presumes that something has changed in the meantime. If I might ask you your take on this evolvement of circumstances? Or does my memory deceive me on this point?

all the best,
Oazaki, qua Subedai.

[m1thr0s]

Yet recently on a Magic Catastrophe thread you said that both YHWH and Allah do not exist for you, or at all.The Hermetic formula YHVH (or IHVH if you prefer) and the collective god-construct by the same name are not the same thing. They are are not even remotely related since the latter is able to assume humanlike characteristics and emotions such as jealousy, anger etc, while the former exists solely at the level of energy-consciousness principle. They share a similar arrangement of letter values in their names and that is all.

m1thr0s

[fr.novumorganum]

The Hermetic formula YHVH (or IHVH if you prefer) and the collective god-construct by the same name are not the same thing. They are are not even remotely related since the latter is able to assume humanlike characteristics and emotions such as jealousy, anger etc, while the former exists solely at the level of energy-consciousness principle. They share a similar arrangement of letter values in their names and that is all.

m1thr0s

i agree 100% and never tire of pointing this out. the same applies to all the magickal names and words of qabbalah--they are magickal formulae which have an independent existence from any theological existence. basic semantics/lingusitics and basic magick practice bare this out.

[Okazaki Castle]

The Hermetic formula YHVH (or IHVH if you prefer) and the collective god-construct by the same name are not the same thing. They are are not even remotely related since the latter is able to assume humanlike characteristics and emotions such as jealousy, anger etc, while the former exists solely at the level of energy-consciousness principle. They share a similar arrangement of letter values in their names and that is all.

m1thr0s

Hmm. I do not destroy partially when I set out to eradicate a target. IHVH does exist as a formula and an entity is what my research yields. IT is a substitute holding pattern, I would contend. When something exists it resonates, connecting to that which resonates at the same level. Names are absolutely essential to determining resonance I have found. With that would you agree?

As such, it is the level or context that the name expresses in: godhood level, conceptual construct level, in combined situations such as, for example: painted on a board, in a particualr town, in a church with a particular congregation of members each with their own diferent ocntributing vibe, thus connected to specific histopries and lineageas, both genetic herediatry and karmic, all affaecting its vibes and qualities. Yet over all these, the Name will dominate. Why this is, I do not know, but it has held in practice in my own work. What think you thereof?

YHWH exists physically, and therefore in reflection in many places. Yet his essence, not. That has been drawn out, leaving lifeless husks where once occupied form existed. Such is my contention.

regards,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

YHWH exists physically, and therefore in reflection in many places. Yet his essence, not. That has been drawn out, leaving lifeless husks where once occupied form existed. Such is my contention.The whole idea of tetragrammaton as a "person" of some kind seems to be a kind of pollution that crept in over time...probably because it is simply easier for people to make that sort of connection, albeit a false one. By the time we reach the new testament this seems to go completely unchallenged and any memory of any other interpretation is completely lost, save for a skeptical minority who have to play a lot of duck-and-dodge against the raging hordes of "god-wills-it" thugs and zealots.

So I agree that some kind of intelligence resides behind the "name", but it has been nearly impossible, historically, to get people to understand that intelligence for what the name itself actually implies...which is not a "person" at all but a living principle inherent in all matter itself. But people don't much take to the notion of "living principles" in the main...everybody wants a "jealous god" in their corner it would seem. So the "husk" as you say, lives on.

We can target this and we can ultimately quash it on a personal level at least but it will still retain existence in the minds of millions of people. I have no interest in changing the minds of millions of people directly. I am content to work with what I know to be a superior intelligence on its own merits and leave it at that. People will have to sort out their own attachments in their own ways.

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

When something exists it resonates, connecting to that which resonates at the same level. Names are absolutely essential to determining resonance I have found. With that would you agree?Yes, that is true I think, but it can be even more complex than this since some names resonate along a range of frequencies, rather than just one or even a few. This is not only true of YHVH of course. Look to other constructs as well and you will find diversity of interpretations almost everywhere you turn. Diverse interpretations amounts to diverse frequencies. Sometimes we actually have to insist on certain resonances to the exclusion of others in order to extrapolate that which is required of a given "name" or formulae. So it isn't just the name itself...there is context to be weighed into the balance. Many times we find good resonances intermingled with layers of pollution that have to be managed in some way. This is where having more than one trick up your sleeve becomes essential. You can employ a name in lieu of a given sigil for instance which will wage war against aspects of that name which might revile against that particular application. But by persisting in this you emerge with a "purged" formula which has been properly tuned to a specific channel. The Magus is hardly a one-trick pony and names are only as sacred as they conform to their more dignified aspects.

YHVH the "person", doesn't like hexagrammal fields for instance (or so I have noted). It literally burns his ass to come up against that particular application of his "name"...too bad...so sad...the name comes first. The Magus is no respector of "persons" relative to his appointed tasks. I have in certain places referred to the method of slaying certain godforms with their own damn names, and this gives you some idea how and why this is possible. It's all about application. What requires conditional worship to survive can be killed with conditional blasphemy. But the truth is blasphemous against a lie, so we cannot blame the blasphemy for the outcome. It's just words, afterall...:cool:

Not everyone will understand the value of "slaying" a godform of course. I did not invent this concept. It is an advanced magickal practise which has to do with purging energy within your own inner sanctum. You have to understand that your "house" is deadly serious business and if you allow it to be overrun with garbage, it typically will be. Archetypes are prone to degradation on many levels and this practise is one that either cleans them up or flushes them out...the rule of thumb being that if a godform can be slayed, then it should be. What is true will be reborn of its own ashes.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

What requires conditional worship to survive can be killed with conditional blasphemy. But the truth is blasphemous against a lie, so we cannot blame the blasphemy for the outcome. It's just words, afterall...:cool: An excellent way of putting it m1thr0s. Always intriguing reading posts of yours on this subject!

Kain

[baenheh]

I wonder if the ancients were meaning celestial serpents in some of their myths as the 'springs of life and immortality'
The keeper of heavens gate was the horned serpent 'Ningiszida'
Its possible that the ancient astronomers and priests knew of the galactic center and the processes in the universe, which could advance certain aware individualls but bypass others.
Maybe it really was a process of genetic mutation from star dust transmissions towards the earth, and those that knew how to utilize it became the 'GODS' and others missed the boat and started warring.
Only initiates would have understood the 'true' meanings of the ancients legends, I think.
People this day and age are largely operating from a very different mindset than in that time period, and will always jump to different conclusions.

[baenheh]

Here is a nice picture of a snake (but I see the horns on it also), in the area of sagittarius. You will have to click on to maximise on this pop up.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitzer/news/spitzer-20061027.html

The Egyptians always associated some of their serpents to celestial forms, and the Mayans to the serpent across the sun.

[m1thr0s]

oh man...that's just too cool. I'm going to repost the image here uploaded to my own site just in case they change the page or something...

Galactic Serpent

http://abrahadabra.com/images/spitzer.snake.gif

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Indeed...thanks baenheh! :tsmile:

Kain

[Naomi]

Well I did come to Abrahadabra looking for an article on Ningishzida, and not an entire forum with a thread. Good thing I stopped here first before the OF.


Now that I've gotten what I came for, I have another question, where did you stumble upon the correlation between Satan and Ningi, m1thr0s? The article you posted doesn't seem to suggest that, so am I correct in assuming this is your discovery, correct?

[m1thr0s]

...where did you stumble upon the correlation between Satan and Ningi, m1thr0s?I stumbled onto an article via BibleOrigins (http://www.bibleorigins.net/) that really got me thinking about the parallels between Ng and Satan, initially. I sort of followed that thread around for awhile researching it through a whole assortment of other found resources.

edit: That particular article is especially focused on the Creation stories of both cultures and the Garden of Eden story is where we see Satan portrayed as a Serpent via the Christian interpretation. Most "protosatanic" archetypes are going to have more than just this in common though and Ng is no exception. Aside from its serpentine form we also find it "cast out" at one point in the storyline and thus positioned in opposition to the rest of the gods for instance. As lord of the underworld and Keeper of the Gate Ng serves to prevent the unprepared from ascending to heaven but also facilitates the ascention of the prepared. As Guardian of the "good tree", also called the "tree of truth", we find Ng as a Sepentine archetype guarding the exact equivalent of the "Tree of Knowledge" in Genesis.

good to see you here Naomi...

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

This is one of the major contemporary occult topics, and it is difficult to grasp for most people, Danisty. m1thr0s always gives his readers a run for their brain. :confused:
I'm not so much concerned about being able to grasp it as I am about people getting carried away with it and creating a big conspiracy-type scenario around it that doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with the concept...I have a problem with people who can't handle the concept taking it too far and attributing too much to it and making anyone who legitimately understands look like a nutcase.

You're right about m1thr0s though. Sometimes I think just letting him stretch my brain is helpful even if I don't grasp everything he writes.

[Okazaki Castle]

Well, mei I contend that the power of The Word, and thus of Names lies in their Geometry and Sound. Thus, we find that Ningi sh zidda has an interesting construction. To start with, it starts with the Most Famous Syllable: nin. In Japanese, this is portrayed in Kanji as follows:

http://uk.geocities.com/bcdojo/nin.jpg

It is made up of two lesser characters for 'blade' above and 'heart' below. Funnily enough, that's also what Ken-shin means. The character for nin is also pronounced as shinobu. It is the same syllable featured in nin-po and ninjutsu.

Is it not amazing how this world's history and cultures cross-reference? At whose feet shall we lay the cross-reference implications of Ningishzidda's own name? Surely at his own, given his power and focus on the long game, or on End Game. Hail to the Serpent, and what does this mean, one wonders? :rofl: :confused: :cool:

Regards all,
Okazaki Kastle.

[m1thr0s]

you amaze me sometimes Oazaki...

that's a beautiful symbol by the way...so clean and powerful...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I'm not so much concerned about being able to grasp it as I am about people getting carried away with it and creating a big conspiracy-type scenario around it that doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with the concept...I have a problem with people who can't handle the concept taking it too far and attributing too much to it and making anyone who legitimately understands look like a nutcase.

You're right about m1thr0s though. Sometimes I think just letting him stretch my brain is helpful even if I don't grasp everything he writes.

If you can THINK it, it exists.We already look like a nutcase to most humans. So what exactly are you referring to. Any one instance on Occult Forums stand out in your mind that you would care to share?


Okazaki, note also that 'nin' means 'enduring' taken together. This forms the translation of ninja as "enduring man".

SJ:

http://www.scarletpage.com/images/recent14.JPG

[m1thr0s]

I didn't spend months building up this damn site to talk about OF...screw OF, ok???

If you folks want to talk about OF, please take it to PM...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

I found out that nin can also mean patience.

The tengu of course, are one of the first mythological figures that comes to mind when talking about ninja or ninpo. They first came to Japan under the banner of Garuda, his name was later bastardized into karasu, meaning crow spirit. It is also an onomonopeia for the sound crows make, even though the eagles living in japan were also viewed as being incarnated or visible tengu.

Garuda is a deity of great stature and popularity, even today. Garuda is both the half-brother and enemy of the nagas, great serpents that gained their immortality by ransoming Garuda's mother's freedom for the elixir of life.

Garuda can be plural, as well. The garudas are creatures who operate in a similar fashion to the deity Garuda. They kill nagas, or serpents.

There is supposedly, according to Wikipedia, a legend that a Buddha once stopped the fighting betweem the garuda and the nagas.

In contemporary ninpo, tengu are an important aspect if only in legend and myth. One entire school of the Bujinkan dojo is attributed in legend to a yamabushi, or mountain priest, who are inextricably linked to the tengu. Yamabushi in many popular folk tales were often either tengu in disguise, or men who encountered tengu in the remote wilderness of Japan where they learned secrets of fighting.

Masaaki Hatsumi, the Bujinkan's current soke, speaks of tengu from time to time in conversation and in his written works, but the teaching of the esoteric parts, called ninpo, are not taught to those who do not live and train at Honbu dojo, the center of the Bujinkan, and even then, rarely...though his written work alludes to mystical aspects of the art. Many Bujinkan members are opposed to the treatment of the art as anything esoteric, even to the point of ridiculing Hatsumi's more surprising statements or dismissing them as a joke not to be taken seriously.

[Okazaki Castle]

screw OF, ok???



OK. Hee hee. Well, if it looks like a hole...

Perhaps that is why AF was necessary. No focus to the O, see...

In Japan that's known as the ie. Western women don't tend to like that, cuz they like to be the ones telling their men what to do. Maybe other reasons also, haven't bothered to figure that one out yet tbh...

Talking of which, how did Ningi connect to Nu Kua (http://www.abrahadabra.com/nukua01.htm)?

you amaze me sometimes Oazaki...



Perhaps: I just hope I don't surprise you. After all, I only point out the obvious, it is others and past/future factors who carried out most of the work in this. For example, your work in the field, a truly massive undertaking.

http://downtownaustin.com/img/Nine%20Inch%20Nails.jpg

hmmm...

I wonder what


A double lightning flash out from the I is how I view it. Of course, perhpas it is working backwards from the sh, running it in reverse, thereby giving us HS, perhaps a Hiko Seijuro or HSBC connection there?

One wonders whose coffin those nine inch nails are for... Or are we talking crucifixions here? With the last triple K gate opened recently, perhaps there's a certain fiery symbolism to all this... :rofl: http://www.comefaccio.net/forum/images/smiles/evil.gif

Naomi: indeed - Perseverance furthers...

I'd say that patience needs to be firmly tempered with a heavy dose of intolerance to be digestible however...

Regards all,
Okazaki.

[Ðanisty]

If you can THINK it, it exists.We already look like a nutcase to most humans. So what exactly are you referring to. Any one instance on Occult Forums stand out in your mind that you would care to share?
:mrolleyes:This has absolutely nothing to do with OF. Surely you can imagine that I have experiences outside of one single forum. You're giving "regular" people far too little credit. It's by spending time outside of the occult community that I've found people can and will accept a lot of things if you can get them to listen to you first. As I said earlier, if you go on about genetics in terms of DNA splicing, people are going to dismiss you (because it's obvious that ancient Sumerians didn't know about the modern concept of DNA), while if you talk about genetics in terms of breeding, they can grasp it quite easily (because it's already been proven that ancient people understood breeding for specific traits). People are a lot more likely to listen if you don't condesend them.;)

[m1thr0s]

There are other sides to this question but they are difficult to wrap your brain around as a rule. There are certain scholars who have put forward the idea that we haven't really learned anything we didn't already know but that the way we process knowledge itself has changed...and continues to change all the time. An enormous amount of what we think of as scientific knowledge today has its origins in the development of the microscope for instance. But the microscope may not be the only way for people to "see" things occuring at microscopic and subatomic levels. I've tried to bring this out before but it's a difficult concept to define. People have always observed themselves and their environment and it is possible that we have actually lost as many *observation skills* as we have acquired through the passage of time and are in many cases simply rediscovering things that have in fact been discovered before in the ancient past...but discovered in different ways.

But it's still a huge leap to go from that to asserting that the ancients knew this or that (in the same way we know it today) or had the same kinds of knowledge we have today because the ways in which knowledge is processed and housed impacts what it "is" in general. Since *modern science* didn't exist in 2500bc (or earlier), it would be ridiculous to assert that people possessed *scientific* knowledge...and yet...Pythagoras correctly predicted that the earth rotated around the sun in around 500bc and cataloged 10 planets in their solar orbits as well. How the hell did he do that? The fact is, we just flat don't know how he did that. There are all kinds of curiosities from the ancient past that we have no rational explanation for...things we know that people were doing or producing that they should not have had the technical skill to have achieved etc.

So my own habit is to leave all possible doors slightly ajar but not go charging through any of them too confidently...Maybe the Sumerians were aware of DNA...maybe they were not...neither assertion is guaranteed. But it's fairly certain that they would not have been aware of this in the same way as we are aware of it today. Until somebody can produce the Sumerian equivalent of an electron microscope, I think we can safely risk that particular assumption.

People assign all kinds of stuff to the Annunaki. It's easy to do. They were an advanced race of *gods* from somewhere in deep space so, I mean, what the hell could they not do? It's all very exciting and all of that but it doesn't prove squat to anyone who simply doesn't buy it. If you are already bought into it then it all makes perfect sense but if you're not it's just a load of camel cookies... I don't personally give a damn what the Annunaki did or did not know, did or did not do. To me, Ningishzidda exists ethereally and is more defining of a kind of intelligence that resides within us all than it is defining of some particular character in a particular set and setting. We're dealing with archetypes here and the evolution of archetypes down to the present day. That is why it is possible for Ng to be as relevant today as it was 5000 years ago...the archetype itself is very potent...very resilient...very persistent etc.

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

There are many Japanese characters that have the On-yomi (the Sino-Japanese reading) of “Nin”… http://www.uoregon.edu/~felsing/wired/jpnn.htm

If having time one could dissect the whole name and look for fitting Chinese characters. Nin-gi-sh(i)-zi-da.

Good fortune, Ku-ro-ya-gi. :p

[m1thr0s]

I haven't really looked at Chinese linguistics yet Kuroyagi, although I am almost certain this would turn up some interesting stuff. I am very interested in the whole Dragon mythos of ancient China though and wish I knew more about the influence, or possible influence, of Sumer on Asia itself. The whole Apsu-Tiamat creation myth is uncannily similar to the PanKu-NuKua creation myth of predynastic China. Too similar to be a coincidence I think...

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

.

So my own habit is to leave all possible doors slightly ajar but not go charging through any of them too confidently...Maybe the Sumerians were aware of DNA...maybe they were not...neither assertion is guaranteed. But it's fairly certain that they would not have been aware of this in the same way as we are aware of it today. Until somebody can produce the Sumerian equivalent of an electron microscope, I think we can safely risk that particular assumption.

People assign all kinds of stuff to the Annunaki. It's easy to do. They were an advanced race of *gods* from somewhere in deep space so, I mean, what the hell could they not do?


Well, what once has been done can be repeated. And is not ABRAHADABRA a useful tool for shifting quickly to occupy/assume others' persepctives easily and close to totally?

I happen to remember some things about my Sumerian lifetimes. My Annunaki life there I don't remeber in much detail yet, because it is not time to do so yet, so I hold it just above my conscious physical form's awareness. Also because in terms of memories it is pretty much wholly overridden by the first immediate life following it: Sumerian War Leader. Now, during that life, I had a Venus form as mistress. she's the same soul/person/character who is currently incarnated as Angelina Jolie, who, incidentally, was born 19 days before me and we share much of the same original natal chart geometry. It is she who came up with the solution to group karma: eradicate one side of the equation. Karma cannot move between groups if one of those groups doesn't exist within a system anymore. Hence, eradicate an entire people and culture and all its representatives and voila, problem of group karmas solved. That sort of ruthless simplicity is what I also remember as characterising the Annunaki thought processes.

I'm applying the same methodlogy to humans this lifetime, btw, just giving them the option to become other species, eg Vampyres, Elven prior to anihilation of human form/concept.

Now, in my Sumerian War Leader lifetime, Angelina's Papa, who was Sumerian King at the time, was a character I know as Shen Quan Zai, who went on to become Fu Xsi. So, perhaps that answers some correlations, or at least gives leads.

Further, I happen to remember you finding out how the Annunaki thought and moved. During the weaving period, a clear image of the methodolgy you used was revealed to me. However, during that period I was living parrallel, future and past timelines and did not really know, or care, what was what. Also, though I saw what you were doing I didn't really understand much of it, and further perhaps mind presented it to me in a way I could relate to. But I'll give it to you here for what it's worth.

You took this diagram:

http://www.abrahadabra.com/images/trigramtree001.jpg

and your logic went like this: Annunaki are different lifeforms, hecne they probably have a different energetic structure, and thier own equivalent of the Sephiroth/Qliphoth, as well as their own equivalent of basic line combinations (as opposed to trigrammatic representations). Then you took out the tree of life and the trigrams held within it.

Then you sat in the '0' of your name (m1thr0s) and allowed the impressions to surface from there, out of the void so to speak.

There were some sigils or geometric formations outside of that triangle also, but I didn't really understand those. I think they were to constrain the force involved, or direct it.

The process evolved by leads, or ideas and implications thereof, coming thru, then you followed these along and found they all cross-referenced rather neatly and consistently. By the end of it you were left with that same diagram of the abrahadabra grids with an Annunaki energetic structure superimposed, moving Annunaki genetics through it. Then you used that to do what they did, but better.

Which is sort of where we are now, to my mind and perspective. Just we're still being discreet about it still. Then again, I disconnect from Time often, and so forth, so maybe we're not there yet. *shrugs* Might be worth trying as an idea if you haven't given it a whirl yet...;)

Hmm, yes, Kuroyagi has an unfair advantage over us all because he is the only one who speaks the slitty-eyes own languages. Very cool, and it is something I am impatient to do, but for the moment I only know what I pick up here and there, or comes to me. A breakdown of Nin - gi - sh - zidda perhaps Kuroyagi-sama if you have the time and feel so inclined? The rest of us are all very interested...

all the best all,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

That's about right Oazaki. People don't always understand how "creative" science works. Many times it is a kind of "seeing", or "gazing" practise in fact. It has a lot to do with uniting past, present and future in many instances...of reaching deep into the ancient past to recover the clarity of mind that exists there and linking the dots in the timeline as they lead to the Now and onwards to the Future. The Future itself is still a "projection" but it is also a probabilities calculation, owing to the principle of "Karma", or of Cause & Effect etc. Through all of this *scanning* there remains a constant...whatever constant exists in the mind of the beholder...usually a question of some kind...how things work or how something can be done etc. This whole practise is what I refer to as the proper use of the *Macroscope*...something modern science does not wish to openly acknowledge, though it would be exactly noplace without it.

In all of this however, the Annunaki are only a footnote...they are not the thing itself...just another leaf in the winds of time really. That is why I do not spend too much time on it...with the exception of Ng. Nearly every period produces something larger than itself and this *something* bears a striking resemblance to itself across many *periods*. Ng is one of these...a kind of *superarchetype*...bigger than the gods...more powerful than the incidental pool from which it sprang.

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

Hee hee, excellent! Might I ask... do you actually 'see' this process in your minds eye looking a bit like a whole load of concentric spheres, with threads running down thru these spheres, weaving and making helical turns as they do so, also sometimes zigzaggy or sharper turns? With this Earth somewhere around concentric innermost spehre 4 most of the time...

If so, then you have also presumably found that you can play with those threads, taking some out, introducing new ones... even changing whole spheres and introducing more of them. This is something like how I see and use ABRAHADABRA. The other key correlation being that it is also possible to use this grid system to 'shift' to other points on the 'map' so to speak, seeing things from those perspectives yet whilst in your physical form. Thus, one is able to take other, and others', perspectives, or positions, and use, or target, them.

Is that similar to your Modus Operandi with ABRAHADABARA? If not, might I ask how your differs, or what it's nature is?


In all of this however, the Annunaki are only a footnote...they are not the thing itself...just another leaf in the winds of time really.

True, but it should also be born in mind I think that the main limitation we have to contend with at the moment is the vessel we are using to access these insights and tools. Human, or human-ish, form is very, very limited in nearly all ways which count. Intellectually, in terms of visulaization capabilities, in terms of superpowers, and so on. Whilst we are in the most important/useful place at the most important time in all history that has thus far occurred (and not just because it is the Now, there have been other Nows elsewhere that were relatively insignificant in cosmic import) we are nevertheless still limited by the vessels we are currently using, in many ways at least. Hence the advanatage of modifying the vessel we are in to more closely approximate the sorts of vessels best suited to understand, modify and ultimately control and rule this system (determine its nature and form).


That is why I do not spend too much time on it...with the exception of Ng. Nearly every period produces something larger than itself and this *something* bears a striking resemblance to itself across many *periods*. Ng is one of these...a kind of *superarchetype*...bigger than the gods...more powerful than the incidental pool from which it sprang.


Veeeerrrrrryyy Interesting. Tell me, do you have awareness of the consciousness known as The God of Many Faces? This is what I think you are refferring to there... :eek: :cool: (that two eye difference there being significant in this ;) )

all the best,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

Hee hee, excellent! Might I ask... do you actually 'see' this process in your minds eye looking a bit like a whole load of concentric spheres, with threads running down thru these spheres, weaving and making helical turns as they do so, also sometimes zigzaggy or sharper turns? With this Earth somewhere around concentric innermost spehre 4 most of the time...Literally anything is possible in fields working...just a matter of tweaking the parameters. I am very focused on Earth as an anchor point personally as I need to throw all of my attention into charging that point with the full force of the system as a whole...so it tends to remain posited at center to the Tetractys itself in most of what I do. How things are posited has mainly to do with what in specific you may happen to be exploring...

True, but it should also be born in mind I think that the main limitation we have to contend with at the moment is the vessel we are using to access these insights and tools.People are not what they appear. Unlike some, I do not consider the "star" model of human being to be metaphorical, but literal. That means that thinking of ourselves as "dirty bags of mostly water" (to coin a phrase) is fundamentally in error. It is like defining ourselves from our toes down. One has to visualize one's True Self correctly to ever hope to be able to actualize it I think. Every Man and Every Woman is a Thermonuclear Power Plant of unfathomable magnitude in my view. Obviously that doesn't mean they will all acknowledge or equilibrate these facts at once.

Tell me, do you have awareness of the consciousness known as The God of Many Faces?Sure. same thing really...just different words...

edit: I have actually spoken with this entity face-to face Oazaki. I only tell you this because we are both crazy anyway so...who's gonna believe us...but I had a very extensive conversation with this entity many years ago...fascinating being beyond all human comprehension...it was he/she/it that set me on this path to begin with and opened all the vital doors as well...

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

It is true what you say about Stars, and I certainly acknowledge and work with it... and black holes, and nebulae and that sort of stuff. But. It remains the case that no matter what we expand our consciousness to merge with or be, we still have to 'return' that consciousness into our physical form to 'ground' the insights and power thus gained. As such, the point about the vessel holds I'd say. Have a more powerful vessel, and you will find it is better for grounding of its own nature. Thus, the Earth element scenario, which must be very hard and annoying for you (or would be for me and most I think, but I have always admired your patience and tenacity), is neatly circumvented, or put on automatic in a way...


Sure. same thing really...just different words...



Cool. What do you think of his character (central of Father principle)? Both generally, as a matter of style, or tastes and personality... and also from a more strategic persepctive. I personally haven't found any weaknesses/flaws there that I can use to break him, should I wish to at some point later. Not that I'd necessarily do so you understand, but as an academic exercise I do like to examine all possible targets and find where the 'gaps in their defenses' are. Haven't found one with him yet. Tis fun, the perfection of it, but makes me wonder, cuz, well, so far everything I've looked at has some weakness or other...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

It is true what you say about Stars, and I certainly acknowledge and work with it... and black holes, and nebulae and that sort of stuff. But. It remains the case that no matter what we expand our consciousness to merge with or be, we still have to 'return' that consciousness into our physical form to 'ground' the insights and power thus gained.Well, this is what Abrahadabra teaches us...that Tree & Star are a cooperative/symbiotic relationship...they are not separate, save only in the mind, and also physically "blocked" until such time as that blockage is finally recognized and removed. So there is no discrepancy. Both things can be the case at the same time, and are in fact, already that way at the level of the physics itself.

Cool. What do you think of his character (central of Father principle)?It would be hard to qualify what I *think* of an entity as advanced beyond myself as I am advanced over an amoeba. I was sure as hell impressed, I can tell you that. As I was talking with he/she/it I watched whole pantheons flowing into and out of its chambers...some in a great rush with urgent matters obviously pending...how do you judge something like that? Rather I attended to my own business in relation and just sort of marvelled at all the rest...

edit: this was a very atypical trance experience by the way...just so people understand that. I am not one to carry on such conversations with extra-terrestrial intelligences on a day-to-day basis or anything...this was a one-shot deal and I am quite certain it won't come up again in this immediate lifetime. *Why* it decided to communicate with me is a whole other can-o-worms. Who the hell knows...luck of the draw maybe...odd-man-out...maybe it just liked my poetry...maybe I'm actually the King of the Universe and we needed to discuss my phone bill...lol

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

Well, this is what Abrahadabra teaches us...that Tree & Star are a cooperative/symbiotic relationship...they are not separate, save only in the mind, and also physically "blocked" until such time as that blockage is finally recognized and removed. So there is no discrepancy. Both things can be the case at the same time, and are in fact, already that way at the level of the physics itself.


Yes, but at the level of the personal experience? How does one remove that block in the fastest way possible? This is what I've been working on since around 1 year old. My block was placed on my physical body physically you see, still remember the experience vividly, ijn a German hospital with transfer overnight, secretly, to Amsterdam. It's why I I've hated the illuminati for so long and sought to destroy them by any means necessary, then crush them in the dust, then torture them, then de4story all they connect, then torture it, and as on and so forth.

Hence, how does one remove that block as fast as possible? that is the key consideration I believe.

It would be hard to qualify what I *think* of an entity as advanced beyond myself as I am advanced over an amoeba. I was sure as hell impressed, I can tell you that. As I was talking with he/she/it I watched whole pantheons flowing into and out of its chambers...some in a great rush with urgent matters obviously pending...how do you judge something like that? Rather I attended to my own business in relation and just sort of marvelled at all the rest...


Well... I'd say it's just another character and don't be awed by him or anything. Perhaps it is even the case that you yourself are superior to it in many ways, and absolutely also? Certainly I would subscribe to that point of view. But he is in Godhood, and so more idealized. What, then, one wonders would we be like existing in such a state?

A lighter state necessarily contains less substance. It is also more relaxing, and gives you time to put your feet up and have fun. Relatively speaking. And mayhaps he too was/is working on something, like how to put all the work on automatic, just like the rest of us who're awake to the game in all this....

Personally also I'd say get him to do things for you. You make it there on your own, or get there by whatever you can, demand things from him, get him to give you things. After all, do not the muslims: 'When you take one step towards God, He takes 10 000 steps towards you'. Well then, I figure we're owed a whole sledload of steps, plus more.

maybe I'm actually the King of the Universe and we needed to discuss my phone bill...lol


:yes::yes: :rainbow: Except that bit about the phone bill. It's free and you're owed for communicating with the forces that be...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

~One thing though, more a philosophical point. I'd say that is the true God, once you get past the BS and inefficient crap of the gods of this system/creation. As such, if we're being Satanists, do we have to oppose him and seek to destroy him? That doesn't really work in the context of his character... except that he allowed the injustice here on this planet to continue and played a less active role in dismantling it than we did. He's prbbly got some way round that, but it looks sort of like a hole from some perspectives, enough to be useful I think, but I like him, and so don't really want to destroy him, also he's fun. But philosophically, as a matter of consistency, how does this factor in?

Best Regards,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

Hence, how does one remove that block as fast as possible? that is the key consideration I believe.The entire evolution of knowledge leads up to that question Oazaki. One has to have a very clear idea what the blockage is. This means one has to understand the anatomical physics involved accurately enough to diagnose and treat it properly. Abrahadabra and Trigrammal Field Theory put us closer to this than anything else I know of on this entire earth but we won't know for sure how to pick that lock until it has been picked...not just once...but can in fact be locked and unlocked at will...

We're getting closer but we're not quite there yet... There are certain logistical issues to be ironed out yet and it's still not 100% certain what all of these are. Some, for instance, believe that there are certain atmospheric constraints that will necessitate atmospheric modifications. I don't ascribe to that theory personally. I think it's all within our grasp. I very much doubt there will ever be any kind of "rapture" event that causes the race as a whole to awaken but it's an interesting theory.

edit: if you're just after FAST of course, there's always death.
Otherwise we slug it out in the trenches until we've nailed it clean.

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

Perhaps it is even the case that you yourself are superior to it in many ways, and absolutely also?It's funny you should say that Oazaki...that seemed to be its position as well. I have generally rejected the idea on its face but then I was never terribly self-preoccupied that way. Now that you mention it though, there might actually be certain doctrinal supports for that idea...all surrounding the notion of the Paramatman and Atman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman) generally I think. Complicated discussion though... In a nutshell, those who labor in the trenches rank higher than they know. So much more can be accomplished there, though the odds are seemingly always against it...there are curious parallels in this to the symbolism of the Emperor in the Tarot, though unfortunately the more mystical aspects of the Emperor have been trashed over time. And yet, if you look carefully at his shield insignia (Thoth deck and others) you will see a form of the TwinStar there...the double-headed phoenix, sometimes also called the Phoenix of Hermes etc... The Empress carries this as well... It happens that Ningishzidda follows this symmetry also, so in a sense we come full circle to Ng yet again.

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

http://www.stanford.edu/class/slavgen194a/images/russia_eagle3.gif

Yes, the Russians surely should pay attention (espec with the all the trouble Putin's been getting himself into lately...)



edit: if you're just after FAST of course, there's always death.


Yes! My Way precisely! Or as the Fench call it 'Le petite mort'. Made bigger. Lots, lots bigger....

No point losing physical form whilst it serves useful anchor purposes though. As detailed above by us both vis-a-vis our personal superiority to the Supreme God of All Creations. Well, that anchor opiint can always be used to become even more superior I think, so why not?

Thus, those logistical issues. Care to throw a few of the ones which are being troublesome for you my way and I can solve them for you? Then in return, I can do likewise, throwing a few of my thornier ones your way for your solve et coagula. Or perhaps really just cross-referencing perspectival tools...

So returning to Ng, how do you think he connects to that Central Intelligence:


That is why it is possible for Ng to be as relevant today as it was 5000 years ago...the archetype itself is very potent...very resilient...very persistent etc.


?

all da best,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

So returning to Ng, how do you think he connects to that Central Intelligence:
Ninghishzidda reasserts the Way at a pivotal time in history when the Way is hinted at through Science but altogether lost on Religion, and sadly, much of Philosophy as well...even the Tantras have become sullied and ambiguous...

...and then there's Ng...reasserting the same exact assertion He/She/It asserted from the very beginning...That men are part Animal, part God, and altogether invested with the power to choose their final Dharma...

The best of gods lead by way of their examples...those embedded in their emblems...those embedded in their legends. Whether we are speaking in the language of DNA or speaking in the language of Breeding, the example itself is clear. Ng was the Alchemist among his peers who created Man by means of a highly technical gene-splicing...so technical in fact as to be generally lost on the gods themselves, except of course, for Ninghishzidda, the Genius among the Gods.

That Genius set this ball in motion. That same Genius will see it to Completion.

It is Ng that first sounds the battlecry:

There is no God, but Man.

Understanding this in the way it should be understood, informs us of the path that we are set upon, the price we have to pay and the direction in which all real solutions to the real problems that we face must inevitably be found.

Ng is the Conduit and the Conductor. The force itself resides Within.

What Within? According to Ng, Within our very Genes.

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

The emblems that have always impressed me the most are the ones that offer technical instruction. In many cases these may take the form of symbols. On rare occasions they may also take the form of gods or similar archetypes. This is what I really see going on with Ninghishzidda and why it really piques my interest. As an alchemical theorist steeped in the mysteries of the Body of Light I get all kinds of technical clues from Ng on many different levels. It's form is like a catalog of ancient Mutational Engineering Science. If you know how to read it, it's chock-full of technical information...

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Hey M1thr0s would it be too much trouble to post some of those symbols you associate with Ng?

Also have you read up on Shaitan, the peacock angel? He's a primary figure in the Yezhidi religion in the middle east. He is also known as Melek Taus. I learned about him through Samael over at the 600 club boards when he made an obscure reference to Shaitan's words.

Now as I've said before I never delved deeply into Persian mythology, so this is why I would like to know how closely connected Shaitan and Ningishzidda are related pardigm-wise.

Links:

http://www.ziarah.net/peacock.html

"Some Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian), Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) and others identify Melek Taus as Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer) or Shaytān (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan) (Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)). The fact that the Yazidis have stated that their God is the "evil one" of other religions hardly clarifies the matter. The Yazidis' cultural prohibition against uttering the word – saying God's name is"

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus)

[Naomi]

I always skip the 7's. Sorry about that. Anyways I've been riveted by the conversation you've been having here, O and M.

Particularily:

It would be hard to qualify what I *think* of an entity as advanced beyond myself as I am advanced over an amoeba. I was sure as hell impressed, I can tell you that. As I was talking with he/she/it I watched whole pantheons flowing into and out of its chambers...some in a great rush with urgent matters obviously pending...how do you judge something like that? Rather I attended to my own business in relation and just sort of marvelled at all the rest...

edit: this was a very atypical trance experience by the way...just so people understand that. I am not one to carry on such conversations with extra-terrestrial intelligences on a day-to-day basis or anything...this was a one-shot deal and I am quite certain it won't come up again in this immediate lifetime. *Why* it decided to communicate with me is a whole other can-o-worms. Who the hell knows...luck of the draw maybe...odd-man-out...maybe it just liked my poetry...maybe I'm actually the King of the Universe and we needed to discuss my phone bill...lol

I want to discuss this more later but I'm out of time and have to go to a mexican restaurant with the Chans from the other side of reality. Maybe I'll meet Quetzalcoatl....

[Aodh]

I always skip the 7's. Sorry about that. Anyways I've been riveted by the conversation you've been having here, O and M.

Particularily:



I want to discuss this more later but I'm out of time and have to go to a mexican restaurant with the Chans from the other side of reality. Maybe I'll meet Quetzalcoatl....
Off-Topic: Quetzalcoatl lives on my wall as an Ouroborous. ;)

[m1thr0s]

Quetzalcoatl is just too damn handsome for words...

There's a lot of angles to looking at Ng's iconography...there's a lot there but the prevailing theme if still Winged Serpents and very often Twin Forms of these so you always get that Male-Female-Quintessential-One thing going on with Ng. This is so prevalent a theme that many experts are agreed that there were always Two Ngs in fact and not just one. Certainly we find many references to Ng as wife to Damuzi while in other places we see Ng addressed as Lord...in his Underworld functions, as Keeper of the Gate, Guardian of the Tree, Presenter of Kings and so on... Further on we find Part Human - Part Animal forms also, the same as with the Egyptian godforms...
The famous Lamasu depicted on the Gate of Ishtar is said to be a form of Ng in his "Mushushu Dragon" Form, so now we have not only serpents and fying serpents but Dragons proper going on. It's hard to escape the observation that if there was ever a really stark and powerful image devised by humans at any time, Ng inevitably acquired those attributes somewhere, in one form or another.

And still there are underlying themes here...it's not just some sort of hapless mish-mash of imageries. There is continuity and purpose behind all of these types of associations. Certainly we have the Shamanic traditions upheld and preserved in Ng...also Tantric traditions and all things having to do with the Body of Light in general...As the iconography itself evolves and moves into Greece and China and MesoAmerica and Africa, Egypt and other places we see that iconography assuming the medical and mystical end of things almost without exception...

So the question is easy, but the answer is HUGE: what kinds of symbols in particular correspond to Ng...It's a powerful question that needs to be explored over a period of months and years to begin to get the whole gist of it I think...

m1thr0s

[Pagan39]

I was wondering if anyone was aware of Nicolas De Vere's interpretation of the Anunnaki,their descendants and rituals,and if so,what they think of it.....

[m1thr0s]

Greetings Pagan39!!!

No...actually...not specifically...do you have any links or anything?

m1thr0s

[Pagan39]

Thank you m1thr0s,
I have been watching this thread with a keen interest over the last few days.
Nicolas de Vere wrote a book called the Dragon Legacy.His website is www.nicolasdevere.com (http://www.nicolasdevere.com) There is also an interesting background interview with him on www.traceyrtwyman.com (http://www.traceyrtwyman.com).
Namaste
Pagan39

[m1thr0s]

these both appear to be dead links...could you check the spelling?

m1thr0s

[Pagan39]

As to which symbols pertain to Ng,a definite one is the glyph used for Gemini. As Mercury (Hermes/Thoth/Tehuti/Ng) rules Gemini,this is definitely one of his.
The interesting thing to note is,unlike the caduceus,the rods no longer entwine but stand separately from each other.Something to ponder....

[MythMath]

Is this part of my NASA obsession through the 60s...?

[Pagan39]

oh bugger...and I went to all the trouble to google them...I'm afraid I'm not the computer maven you all are...Tracey Twyman is a staunch defender of De Vere...maybe if you do a search Nicolas de Vere/The Dragon legacy which is what I did.....

[Pagan39]

How does this relate to a NASA obsession? In the words of a famous australian redhead, 'Please explain?' Laugh.

[MythMath]

My Kingdom is Not of This World:
An Interview with Prince Nicholas de Vere von Drakenberg

http://tracyrtwyman.com/blog/?page_id=87
_____________________________
___________________________

NASA used terms like Saturn V, Mercury, Gemini, etc...

Pretty captivating stuff for an 8 year old born in June...

[m1thr0s]

coolbeans...thanks MM...

it's an interesting article to be sure. while I think it is imperative that he continue to track the line itself from a strictly documentational point of view, I would find it perfectly laughable that anyone might think this bloodline would have remained pure in any sense of the word. Dragons are much too promiscuous for that so that if there is any truth to the genetics claim itself (and there may well be) there is virtually not a chance in hell that it hasn't spilled over by now into other bloodlines as well...

but the basic premise is very engaging and I hope he continues to compile it all...

m1thr0s

[Pagan39]

Astronomy is something else,isnt it?
Absolutely mesmerising....best meditation I ever do is when I visualise I'm sitting on the edge of the galaxy looking out...closest I get to it here is when I'm driving in my car at night long distances...you get that sense of space,distance....and peace.
Anyway back to Ng and his iconography...of course the symbol for Gemini is the Twins....I have wondered if he wasnt one.That would answer some contradictions as to gender in some of the texts.
Pagan

[Pagan39]

Although the article is a taste of his theory,as a devoted bibliophile I would recommend reading the whole of his book The Dragon Legacy.I would be deeply interested in the opinion of an occultist of your calibre.
Whats your take on the abandonment of Teotuacan?
Pagan

[MythMath]

Please share more info on the caduceus, or it's alternates...

And how can you beat the twin angle...?

MM

[fr.novumorganum]

i just did a google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Nicolas+De+Vere%27s+&btnG=Google+Search),

this reslut seemed the most relevant (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_dragoncourt.htm), but i dunno if i'm helping

[Pagan39]

Thats the best result I've had on Nicolas de Vere....thanks for that.Ng is mentioned in the chapter'The cult of Ankou' pg 170...

[m1thr0s]

yeah...great link...thanks fr. novum!!!

m1thr0s

[Pagan39]

I just read the article 'Eden's Serpent and its Mesopotamian Prototypes'...it was really informative and added to my growing collection of articles on Ningishzida.I was curious...M1thr0s,what was Ng's appearance when you accessed him in that deep trance?
Namaste
Pagan

[m1thr0s]

pardon my confusion...I couldn't figure out what you were referring to. That was part of a side-conversation I was having with Oazaki regarding what he regards as an all-father godform (god of many faces I think he calls it). I never made any association to that as being the same as Ng in that instance...that was something else I think.

However, when I do reflect on Ng...and this will almost certainly sound certifiable...I get what can better be defined as a sense of memory reflections than anything else. I am aware of course of the wide array of archetypal coordinates that Ng commands and I have scanned these many times from the Underworld forms to the Guardian forms to the Palace of Ereshkigal to the Throne of Tiamat and more...when I scan these guys I go all out...I want every scrap that I can get. But the weird thing...the thing I can't explain is the memory stuff...as if I had actually been Ng at some point in this worlds development. I have no idea what to make of that and I have not drawn any conclusions from it. I can only report a powerful sense of memory visions corresponding to this particular archetype in my case...

There may be numerous possible explanations for it though and not just the most obvious or the most ridiculous...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

Ng is taking the entire modern world completely by surprize. He/She is such a strategist! It's difficult to imagine something so powerful managing to remain so hidden...how very snakey of him/her! Suddenly right out of nowhere I am reading little clips saying that the entire upcoming Aeon is to be ruled by Ningishzida! Ning-who? lol... Who the hell it that? Where the hell did he come from? lol... That's just how it is with Ng...

Ng certainly has his human-like form so it is not at all impossible for him to manifest in this way. The process of "assuming the godform" very often does ignite memory sensations so that in itself is not especially alarming. I think that it is the personalness of these kinds of memories that takes me aback...I personally have a number of very good reasons to think that Ng links to Abrahadabra itself in some way...we don't really know who came up with this formula originally or why but its a very "genetics" oriented formula and that was traditionally Ng's ballywick...I think it's his enginery though there is no way in hell for me to prove that right now...purely instinctive on my part...

It didn't surprize me to learn that the Notaricon on Ningishzidda adds to 418 though...I was excited but not terribly surprized by this. Notaricon, if you don't already know, is a classical method of counting words minus their vowels...technically, this is not the original meaning of the term Notaricon, but has become one of its more popular common applications...

N=50 + N=50 + G=3 + Sh=300 + Z=7 + D=4 + D=4 = 418!!!

True, you have to double the D's to get it but this is not an unusual spelling anyway and has other relevant associations...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Well, Ng details are definitely a focus of the locus...

This thread's got the highest view
count of any on the Forums... ;)
___________________

Please more on the Twins 'theory'...

MM

d
doubling

[Pagan39]

Mythmath,I wish I had a 'twins theory' on Ningishzidda.Laugh.
I have a feeling we might be in the process of beginning to put one together though.Now Ng historically has been sexually ambiguous...this according to M1thr0s's research....I havent done much research on that aspect of Ningishzidda.....so its not too much of a stretch to leap to twins.Of course he/she could be the perfect fusion of both genders as well.
However I have an intuitive leaning towards the twin aspect,in the article 'Eden's Serpent and its Pre-biblical Mesopotamian Prototypes' there was one story that said Tammuz and Ng were married to each other's sisters.Was she a twin?....there is nothing to support that and that is when I turn to iconography.
There is no argument that Ng is Mercury who rules Gemini whose symbol is the Twins...now the greeks cast the constellation as two brothers,Castor and Pollux but that could be misleading for our purposes and I have yet to cross reference this to the stories of other cultures relating to this constellation.Perhaps someone else can contribute to this?
And I must admit the lack of expressive flow to some of the astrological glyphs makes me think they belong to a more primitive culture...compare them to Asian and Arabic calligraphy.The glyph for Gemini is of twins polarised as compared to the caduceus which is of twins harmoniously entwined.Why was the caduceus,which has always been used to symbolise Mercury/Ng not used in astrology but replaced with an inferior glyph (to my mind).
As a feminist I have a few ideas on this.....but I dont want to get off the thread.
What are your thoughts on Ng and twinship...
Namaste
Pagan

[Aodh]

Quetzalcoatl and his twin were represented by the Morning Star and Evening Star. As a relative analogue of Ng, do you think that would transfer over?

[Pagan39]

M1thr0s,
The memories are the key I feel,I have been painstakingly piecing the few I have together...then doing research to see if it backs them up...alot of it is going with intuitive feel...at the moment Ng guards his secrets....makes me work for them...
I find your work on things like the Notaricon interesting because they are so different from the areas of my research around him and yet so complementary.
Pagan

[Pagan39]

Aodh...that meso american transfer definitely works for me....I find it really exciting to see a cross reference support the twins theory...obviously my knowledge of meso-american mythology is lacking....
What about if the astrological glyph for Gemini is not of twins polarised but twins separated?.......
Pagan

[m1thr0s]

Quetzalcoatl and his twin were represented by the Morning Star and Evening Star. As a relative analogue of Ng, do you think that would transfer over?Absolutely Aodh. Most experts agree that the iconography is too similar to have been a coincidence anyway...

I find your work on things like the Notaricon interesting because they are so different from the areas of my research around him and yet so complementary.Oh...that's nothing at all...Mutational Alchemy builds around the binary and ternary hexagrams which entertwine directionally like two opposing snakes, yin & yang...the whole damn engine is like an extension of Ningishzidda's body...

But that requires a great deal more explanation...that's part of why this site is here at all...to explore that whole knowledge & conversation.
Also just to screw around with other kinky occultish thingies...:laugh:

m1thr0s

[Pagan39]

In ancient Sparta the twins...Castor and Polydeuces were called the Tindaridai...the sons of one of the Spartan kings. Tyndareus..you know they had that unique double 'twin'king system...the astrological glyph for Gemini is a uniquely Spartan aniconic representation of the Tindaridai...no wonder theres no flow if it came from them...lol......did a bit of reading on Quetzalcoatyl and his twin....like the greeks the twin was male and one was deformed in comparison to the other,Castor with his mortality and Xolotl with his appearance.How that relate to Ng is anyones educated guess.
Relating it back to the caduceus..I guess the implication of a damaged twin is that the energy Ningishzida represents is also damaged and that it occurred after the Babyonians and before the greeks...given the myths...dont have a timeframe for Quetzalcoatyl....Anyone?
Pagan

[Pagan39]

However, when I do reflect on Ng...I get what can better be defined as a sense of memory reflections than anything else. But the weird thing...the thing I can't explain is the memory stuff...as if I had actually been Ng at some point in this worlds development. I have no idea what to make of that and I have not drawn any conclusions from it. I can only report a powerful sense of memory visions corresponding to this particular archetype in my case...

C'mon,M1thr0s,give it up.....what memories from where and when...I would be fascinated to hear them.....
Pagan

[Aodh]

Hmm, off the topic of timeframe but on the topic of Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl and:

Perhaps because Quetzalcoatl was more than likely a representation of Ng superimposed upon a tribal god (which was created from Quetzalcoatl the ruler) that is why Quetzalcoatl and his twin seem more seperate than Ng who seems to be represented as TWO as opposed to "having a twin". The actual mythos for Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl being just an expansion on the concept Ng truly represents: Man in totality. Gruesome and Seductive; Mortal and Immortal; Light and Dark; Formative and Destructive.

Ng represents totality and balance. That make sense?

[Pagan39]

Absolutely Aodh.

Oh...that's nothing at all...Mutational Alchemy builds around the binary and ternary hexagrams which entertwine directionally like two opposing snakes, yin & yang...the whole damn engine is like an extension of Ningishzidda's body...

But that requires a great deal more explanation...that's part of why this site is here at all...to explore that whole knowledge & conversation.
Also just to screw around with other kinky occultish thingies...:laugh:

m1thr0s

So everything to learn about Mutational Alchemy is in the Table of Contents of this site? Begin there...yes?....I have always been avoiding alchemy and what I call ritual magic....guess its time to learn....sigh...lol
Pagan

[Pagan39]

Yes,Aodh,that makes sense....the difficult thing for me to keep out of this discussion of Ningishzida is my own agenda....laugh....trying to make things fit around that.For me,Ningishzidas reemergence has to be intimately involved with the raising of the Shekinah or he's wasting my time....
One thing I do like about the myth of the Greek twins is the information 'that the image of the twins attending a goddess are widespread and link the Dioscuri with the male society of initiates under the aegis of the Anatolian goddess [Cybele]
http://en wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Polydeuces
Pagan

[m1thr0s]

C'mon,M1thr0s,give it up.....what memories from where and when...I would be fascinated to hear them.....
PaganWell it's tricky Pagan39...like yourself I have only really been aware of Ningishzidda for a little while. But here's something really strange...to me at least. I have a very clear recollection of a very powerful trance I had over 20 years ago (yeah, I am no kid anymore)...long before I ever knew anything about Ng. At that time I went into this very powerful trance state that to this day I think may have occurred because my body thought I was dead...it got confused for a moment and sent the wrong signal or something and the next thing I know these massive engines are firing at my back...I felt like I was strapped to a couple of Boeing 777 turbines...only much sleeker and much more powerful... The thing is...one of the first things that occured almost at the very moment of ignition was that a vast multitude of beings gathered around me and presented me with a name...and all these visions associated to this name. At that time I had no experience of this sort and no real training that could have prepared me for this so I just sort of went with the experience which lasted a very long time and will have to be the subject of another thread (although I have discussed it before). For many years I tried to remember what that name was but it was kind of long and not the kind of name you would usually hear or think of. One of the first things that hit me when I first heard Ng's name was...oh my god...that was it! That was the name! I am virtually certain of it. I have gone over it a thousand times in my mind and I am sure that was the name...

So...you tell me...what the hell is that supposed to mean? It's a lot like that with Ng...there is powerful stuff going on there and it's not all planted in logical sequential order...Now I don't presume to be Ningishzidda you understand...that would be a bit rich even for me...but I do think I have a very powerful connection to this archetype and may even have been born that way for some unknown reason. Now among his many other functions Ng is Lord of the Underworld. For all I know he saw my situation and thought to himself...this one looks ripe...this one's going for a little ride! lol...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

did you recognise anything?oh hell yes...recognized everything and everybody...and it was one hell of a tour. the whole thing set me on this whole path you know of identifying the anatomical bridge itself. Because in this vision...I saw it all...the whole technology and everything. I even had time to run various tests and confirm my observations. Upon re-entry it was all lost...in a sense...but you can't really lose that sort of thing. Much of my work has been a matter of retracing the steps which, as it turns out, amounts to a complex neurophysics that, entirely on my own, I very much doubt I would have ever had an inkling it existed...

But obviously you can't expect people to understand or agree to visions in themselves...it has to be rebuilt by the numbers. nevertheless having seen all of this in action has been enormously motivating/enlightening for me personally...many many clues went down that night...

I shoudn't talk about it too much I guess. People get the wrong ideas. Just because you get gifted with a powerful vision doesn't mean you don't know how to tie your own damn shoes you know...quite the opposite actually. It's made me a much better alchemist and pointed me in directions that have themselves born out under the toughest possible scrutiny... It's also made me fearless...I can fail 10,000 times and just come back 10,001 cuz I already know it's in there somewhere...

edit: in alchemy they say when the Dragon bites you you're as good as cooked already. To receive that bite is the hidden hope of all aspiring mystics/magicians/etc... It sets you on the path like nothing else can. I cannot just give my experience to others unfortunately, but I can certainly encourage the quest itself. Despite all the problems that it has cost me...I wouldn't have it any other way...not for one lousy second.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

edit: in alchemy they say when the Dragon bites you you're as good as cooked already. To receive that bite is the hidden hope of all aspiring mystics/magicians/etc... It sets you on the path like nothing else can. I cannot just give my experience to others unfortunately, but I can certainly encourage the quest itself. Despite all the problems that it has cost me...I wouldn't have it any other way...not for one lousy second.Precicely...and it's interesting that quite a number of us around here have been "bitten" already at some point...and damn hard too. That sort of experience certainly gives you a kind of fearlessness, an inextinguishable drive to push forward despite resistances and similar influences.

That is a stunning experience m1thr0s. I have heard it before, but it's a thing I'm not tired of re-visiting...

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

I haven't really looked at Chinese linguistics yet Kuroyagi, although I am almost certain this would turn up some interesting stuff. I am very interested in the whole Dragon mythos of ancient China though and wish I knew more about the influence, or possible influence, of Sumer on Asia itself.
A breakdown of Nin - gi - sh - zidda perhaps Kuroyagi-sama if you have the time and feel so inclined? The rest of us are all very interested...Hallo, m1thr0s and Okazaki-dono: a decoding of the Ng-name in Chinese characters is a bit problematic. For one those signs are picto- and ideograms; different to the Phoenician (and Latin) system and alphabets their meaning is independent from their pronounciation. Thereby people could communicate via written characters without speaking the same language i.e. pronouncing them in a completely different way which makes much sense if you look at the immense size of the Chinese empire. Secondly Japanese has only about 50 different sounds (and Chinese about 1400 at best- where English has over 4000!- with foreign words etc.) and for that reason very many homophones. This makes it senseless or somehow dubious at least to look for similar sounding words alone (cause the characters and thereby their meaning could be utterly different- Glenn Morris does this in his books and it is a bit embarrassing cause it denounces a fundamental unfamiliarity with this culture. [Other than that his books are fun, though…]. You only have to look at Japanese poetry that doesn’t have an end-rhyme in our sense but rather counts syllables. (But theres much to research still like different system of how to write the charcters themselves, ghost-scripts and so on…)

But be that as it may it is not necessary to look for some sort of Chinese Gematria, anyway since we have the Yi Jing and the soft- hard (original for yin and yang) system of changes and mutations. This connects very much to the topic at hand. Fuxi and his sister are sometimes depicted with snake bodies- the one stone rubbing on that they hold swastikas is famous-, but there is a theory that he/she was a Janus-headed (cf. the Roman god!) moon