A small critic on Zoroastrianism

[Seipiriz]

Zoroastrianism is a religious dogma that bloomed at the beggining of the persian empire's rise...

Historically little is known about this religion (sacrificing of cattle in large fires up to the peaks of high mountains) as the practice of Zoroastrianism's dogma was not strict, as it was in many belief systems of those times, but it was up to the believer himself to worship and ascend with whatever way he found fit...

The religion's dogma refered to Ahoura-Mazda as the only deity, a god who created good and evil, light and dark, day and night, and who since their creation remained in the "backstage" keeping the scale of their balance fair. Then after a disasterous uprise of chaos and the cleansing flood came Zoroastres or Zaratustra who was a living example of how man should conduct his life and was considered the "living example"...

According to Zaratustra's ways , the man must achieve a state , through balancing the opposites, in which he will become self-fufilled and ready himself to face the sight of Ahoura-Mazda and live by his side eternally...

Making a small account of the religous beliefs of those times and my personal view of things, I can say that Zoroastrianism was a bright, yet primitive example of how man should start to break his ties with God and moved by his own power try to achieve the state of theosis... If we replace the vague figure of Ahoura-Mazda with the union one must achieve with the Whole Zoroastrianism could be a raw start of semi-primitive mankind to Autotheism...

[Anibis]

I thought that Ahura-Mazda was the God of 'Good' who was in opposition to Ahriman, the God of Evil, and that Zoroastrianism was the first real dualist religion (Or duelist, as the case may be). They are still around, and call themselves the Parsis, I think (or the Farsis). Also they Say that Zoroaster was a 'magean', the people from whom we take the word 'Magi'. Anything I miss?
-Ibisis-

[Seipiriz]

I dont know Ibisis...
The info came from my college school book about history and religions , the whole thing sounded interesting and so I brought it up give some time to do some research on the net and I'll let you know...:)

[Seipiriz]

I am a bit confused around here...

My historical resources and school books guided me to start this thread but after Ibisis' reply and my further research on other resources about Zoroastrianism tend to verify the information Ibisis kindly shared with me... How can there be such a vastdifference in the two options of historical facts I still do not get it...

Well, apparently there is no good for thid thread and my initial excitement simply verifies that rushing to share information should be done with caution...

I am sorry about this feel free to delete the thread...

[m1thr0s]

no...let's let it roll. I for one desperately need to brush up on Zoroastrianism as it has been this ever-present shadow figure in my brain for many years. I think your confusion is just the kind of spark we all need to get a few facts ironed out Seipiriz...

Our mistakes are as important as our successes I think and we all make them...we wouldn't be anywhere at all if we did not.

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

No problem Seipiriz, errors are the gateway to knowledge. Truth be told I know very little about this faith, although like M1thr0s, It has lurked behind the scenes as particularily fascinating to me. Crowley at one point commented that Einstien had been pre-figured by Zoroaster, whom he says described the Universe as having a 'spiral force'. Lets poke around and find out more!
-Ibisis-

[Seipiriz]

The religion of ancient Persia as founded by Zoroaster; one of the world's great faiths that bears the closest resemblance to Judaism and Christianity. According to the tradition in the Parsee books, Zoroaster was born in 660 B.C. and died in 583; but many scholars claim that he must have flourished at a much earlier time. All investigators, however, are agreed that his teachings were generally in force throughout Iran before the time of the Jewish Captivity. His name in its ancient form in the Avesta is "Zarathustra," and in later Persian, "Zardusht"; the form "Zoroaster," which is now common, has been adopted from the Greek and Latin "Zoroastres." The native country of the prophet is now believed to have been Media, in western Iran, and there are reasons for claiming that his birthplace was in the province of Atropatene, the modern Azerbaijan; but much of his ministry, or rather most of his prophetic career, was passed in eastern Iran, especially in the region of Bactria, where he won a powerful patron for his religion. This defender of the faith was a king named Vishtaspa, or Gushtasp, a name identical with that of Hystaspes, the father of Darius, although the two personages are not to be confounded, as has sometimes been done.

Tenets of the Faith.
Zoroaster was originally a Magian priest, but he appears to have reformed or purified the creed of the Magi. His religious teachings are preserved in the Avesta. The character of the Persian religion before Zoroaster's time is not known, but a comparison with that of India shows that it must have had much in common with the early religion of the Hindus. It may be presumed that it was a modified nature-worship, with polytheistic features and some traces of demonistic beliefs. Herodotus ("Hist." i. 131 et seq.) states that the Persians from the earliest times worshiped the sun, moon, stars, and earth, and the waters and wind, and he intimates in precise words that they had borrowed certain religious elements from the Assyrians. One or two superstitious practises which he describes, such as the propitiation of the powers of evil (ib. iii. 35, vii. 114), show survivals of demoniacal rites, against which Zoroaster so strongly inveighed; and the account which he gives of the Magian ceremonies is quite in accordance with Zoroastrianism.

The Kingdoms of Good and Evil. One of the characteristic features of Zoroastrianism is the doctrine of dualism, recognizing the powers of good and evil as two personified principles at war with each other. Ahuramazda, or Ormuzd ("the Wise Lord"), leads the forces of good; Angra-Mainyu, or Ahriman ("the Spiritual Enemy"), heads the hosts of evil. Bands of angels and archangels follow the divine leader, while troops of demons and archfiends hasten after the evil lord. The archangels are six in number and are called by the general name Amesha Spentas ("Immortal Holy Ones"); they are personifications of virtues and abstract ideas, and are named Vohu Manah.

[m1thr0s]

oooo...that's interesting. that means he lived right about the same time as Pythagoras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras): 582BC - 507BC...
looks like Pythagoras came right on his heels actually.

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Please excuse this somewhat off-topic, but visually striking, detour:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Druze_star.svg/450px-Druze_star.svg.png

It is also known that Druze believe in five cosmic principles, represented by the five colored Druze star: intelligence/reason (green), soul (red), word (yellow), precedent (blue) and immanence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanence) (white). These virtues take the shape of five different spirits which, until recently, have been continuously reincarnated on Earth as prophets and philosophers including Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve), Pythagoras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras), Akhenaten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten), and many others. The Druze believe that, in every time period, these five principles were personified in five different people who came down together to Earth to teach humans the true path to God and nirvana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana), but that with them came five other individuals who would lead people away from the right path into "darkness".

{All from Wikipedia}

Thus back to Zarathustra...

MM

[MythMath]

One of my clients recently recorded some music here that ended up
being used in a film that is going to premier in NYC on 10/9/06...

When I went to the website to check it out, I was a bit suprised to
learn that the film "Caravan of Light/Initiation is a peace project
inspired by Zoroastrianism focusing on the sacred element of Fire"...

Small World...:rolleyes:

http://caravanoflight.com/

[m1thr0s]

man, that's one handsome pent MythMath...what are you using to build these puppies with? Lighting is freaking perfect...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Perhaps I'm just trying to hex you
with all of my pent-up energy...:rolleyes:
_______________________________

Didn't mean to confuse, but the druze star ,
and the merkaba from another recent thread,
were both found in respective articles on Wikipedia...

I'll be more careful to credit clearly...
______________________________

But I am interested in creating such images,
so I went back and found this link for the
software that was used to create the pent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkscape

Looks cool; expect some originals in the future...

[Seipiriz]

Yazad (Worshipful or Admirable)
Harvesp tavãn (All-powerful)
Harvesp âgâh (All-knowing)
Harvesp khudâ (Master of All)
Abadah (Without beginning)
Abî-anjãm (Without end)
Bûneshtêh (Root of Creation)
Frâkhtan-têh (Final end)
Chamag (Great Cause)
Parjatarah (Best of all)
Tum-afik (Purest of pure)
Abarvand (Above all)
Parvandâ (In tune with all)
An-aiyâfah (cannot be understood)
Ham-aiyâfah (All understanding)
Âdarô (Most Righteous)
Gîrâ (All Controlling)
A-chem (Without cause)
Chamanâ (Cause of all causes)
Safnâ (Benefactor)
Afazâ (Helper)
Nâshâ (Dispenser of equitable justice)
Parvarâ (Sustainer)
Iyânah (Protector of Creation)
Âin-âênah (Unchanging)
Ân-âinah (Formless)
Khrôshîdtum (Firm amongst firm)
Mînôtum (Invisible)
Vâsnâ (Omni-present)
Harvastum (Most Supreme)
Hu-sepâs (Worthy of praise)
Har-hamîd (All-helping)
Har-nek-farêh (Best Auspicious Khoreh (Aura))
Bêsh-tarnâ (Compassionate)
Tarônîsh (Destroyer of evil)
An-aoshak (Immortal)
Farsak (Fulfiller of wishes)
Pajôh-dahad (Creator of good nature)
Khvâfar (Benevolent Judge)
Avakshhiâêyâ (Generous)
Abarzâ (All-bestower)
A-satôh (Unconquerable)
Rakhôh (All-energetic)
Varûn (Saviour)
A-farefah (Undeceiver)
Bê-farêfah (Undeceivable)
A-duî (Without dualism)
Kãmêrad (Master of His Will)
Farmãn-kãm (His Will is Law)
Âekh-tan (Unique)
A-farmôsh (All-remembering)
Hamârnâ (Reckoner)
Sanâêâ (Omniscient)
A-tars (Fearless)
A-bîsh (Above suffering)
Afrâzdum (Most Glorious)
Ham-chûn (The Same)
Mînô-stîh-gar (Creator of astral world)
Amînô-gar (Creator of High spirituality)
Mînô nahab (Hidden in spirituality)
Âdar-bâd-gar (Maker of smoke (gas) by fire)
Âdar-nam-gar (Maker of vapour (water) by fire)
Bâd-âdar-gar (Maker of fire out of gases)
Bâd-nam-gar (Maker of water out of vapour)
Bâd-gêl-gar (Maker of ashes (earth) out of gas)
Bâd-gerad-tum (Maker of air and earth)
Âdar-Kîbarît-tum (Maker of fire out of stone)
Bâd-gar-jâê (Creator of Wind)
Âb-tum (Creator of Water)
Gêl-âdar-gar (Creator of Fire out of earth (as in a volcano))
Gêl-vâd-gar (Creator of Gas out of earth)
Gêl-nam-gar (Creator of Water out of earth)
Gar-gar (Great Artificer)
Gar-ô-gar (Granter of wishes)
Gar-â-gar (Creator of men)
Gar-â-gar-gar (Creator of all Creation)
Agarâ gar (Creator of four elements of nature)
Agarâgar-gar (Creator of constellation of stars)
A-gûmãn (Above doubt)
A-zamân (Timeless)
A-khuãn (Sleepless)
Âmasht (Clever)
Fashûtanâ (Careful Progressor)
Padmânî (Just)
Fîrôzgar (Victorious)
Khudâvand (Master of Creation)
Ahuramazd (Lord of Creation and Wisdom)
Abarîn-kuhan tavãn (Lord of Creation from time unknown)
Abarîn-nô-tavãn (The Great Rejuvenator)
Vaspãn (Lord of Universe)
Vaspâr (All-giver)
Khâwar (All-kindness)
Ahû (Lord of Life)
Awakshîdâr (Forgiver)
Dâdâr (Creator of justice)
Rayômand (Resplendent)
Khôremand (Brilliant)
Dâvar (Dispenser of justice)
Kêrfêgar (Master of righteousness)
Bôkhtâr (Redeemer)
Frashôgar (Frashagar - Resurrector)

[Chylde]

I am a bit confused around here...

My historical resources and school books guided me to start this thread but after Ibisis' reply and my further research on other resources about Zoroastrianism tend to verify the information Ibisis kindly shared with me... How can there be such a vast difference in the two options of historical facts I still do not get it...

Well, apparently there is no good for thid thread and my initial excitement simply verifies that rushing to share information should be done with caution...

I am sorry about this feel free to delete the thread...

Seipiriz, I have "official" printed documents in my possession from several decades ago that state one position. Subsequent "identical" copies available now contradict the documents I have on my shelf, but are purported to be exact copies. Please do not be discouraged by the discrepancies in your research, it's a known problem.

Elsewhere someone has posted (and thought about framing) the following:

Read Everything
Believe Nothing
Think for Yourself


This approach is justified when trying to discuss the life and times of Zarathustra/Zoroaster and what it was he really thought back in 6,500 BCE or 1,300 BCE or 600 BCE, depending on who's opinion you like. Given that many or even most followers of Zoroastrianism have deified Zarathustra in the fashion that others have deified Yeshua bin Yusuf, getting to the truth of the matter will always be subjective.

In my lifetime I have seen the position on Zoroastrianism's monotheistic/dualist nature revised. My thought is that history is written by the victorious, and so must be interpreted in context of the historian on the winner's side :D. In a more culturally "open" time (the 1930's and 1940's) Zarathustra was monothiestic, Ahura-Mazda was the source of all things and maintained the great balance. One of his primary assistants was Ahriman, who was the counter balancing destructive force, or sometimes the Deceiver.

The prevailing belief in my early years was that Zoroastrianism was all about balance. Ahura-Mazda/Ormuzd created everything. Including his seven (7) sparks, the Spenta. Ahriman was the angra mainyu, the destructive spark. All of the Spenta held free will. Ahriman chose to disagree with Ahura-Mazda, the other six (6) sparks were more compliant. Nowhere in this was there a personification of good or evil.

As the researchers who attempt to delve further into this area have changed, the story has changed with it, until now we have a battle between creation and destruction, personified by the Source of All Things and his direct spawn, the Destructive Principle. So, now we have the Creator locked in a battle with a lesser being, the Destroyer, and the difference between the two is simplified into "good" and "evil".

My personal belief is that this migration from Monotheism to flaming dualism made excellent theatre. It simplified a much more elegant concept into a binary choice, permitted easy codification of behaviours into absolute laws, and otherwise made things simpler for those who governed. I believe Zoroaster had to adapt his story because he was branded as a heretic, abandoned by his larger family, driven out of his homeland, and rejected by the Vedics... he needed a better tale to tell if he was going to live on unharried by other brands of True Believers(tm).

Of course my belief is frequently tainted by paranoia, so maybe I'm over complicating this subject.

[m1thr0s]

Please do not be discouraged by the discrepancies in your research, it's a known problem.indeed...runs with the territory as a rule.
I doubt there is a single scrap of occult knowledge that is not layered in some amount of controversy or apparent contradiction.
I think it just teaches you to scrutinize your source material better and always be on the lookout for *ulterior motives*...

m1thr0s

[Darkwater]

Aw man that Caravan of Light was so beautiful then came the political message.blurb.

I read & understood Neitche"thus spake Zarathustra",got my own idea's together then married & many years later had a son.He dreams of what Neitche calls"Gravity",only by re-reading the damn book have I been able to advise him on how to treat the half man/half mole

I have always meant to find out about Zoaraster so I am loving this thread.

Namaste

Andy

[KCh]

I have been heavily involved in research on the ancient Magi of Persia. Thelema is a re-founding of the great (falsely attributed)Sun/Fire worshipers.

An excellent Article:

http://www.thedyinggod.com/chaldeanmagi/index.html

(Notice especially in the begining that the Magi were 'not' to be confused with the priesthood of Zoroastrianism.)

Virtually all the useful esoterica has come to us from the Magi. Passed down through the ages in various clothing. Notice the striking parallels between the Magian conception and Thelema.

"According to Philo of Alexandria (http://www.thedyinggod.com/chaldeanmagi/philo.html): The Chaldeans appear beyond all other men to have devoted themselves to the study of astronomy and of genealogies; adapting things on earth to things sublime, and also adapting things of heaven to things on earth, and like people who, availing themselves of the principles of music, exhibit a most perfect symphony as existing in the universe by the common union and sympathy of the parts for another, which through separated as to place, are not disunited in regard of kindred."

[Naomi]

Kch I was just thinking of you yesterday how the hell did you know???...

Anyways you must know something about Mithras then, tell us, or whatnot...it was a sun god, wasn't it?