Dreamshaping

[Seipiriz]

Through careful meditation and practicing of Tantra I have developed the ability to dreamshape ( thats how I call it) . It is a state where I decide the time, place and storyline of my dreams and then let my mind express itself and me react to what is going on...

Has anything like that ever appeared to you ???

Let me know of your experience

[Ðanisty]

I can't even lucid dream. The only time I was able to do anything even close was when I was under a psychic attack. I wish I could do what you describe, but I'd want to be able to have random dreams too. I get a lot of my inspiration from dreams. I dream a lot of stuff I don't think I would have imagined otherwise.

[Zaii]

I lucidly dream almost every time I dream.

Sometimes it's purely for my personal enjoyment, sometimes I use it to poke around in my subconscious (although it's sometimes difficult to differentiate between what you're causing to appear and what's there all on its own), it varies.

I do have recurring dream characters that show up on their own. One I've even interacted with since I was 9.

When I'm not lucidly dreaming, or when I'm dreaming before I become lucid, my dreams have actually been a pretty accurate indictator of where I'm at in my life, and what issues I need to work with.

[m1thr0s]

I have very powerful dreams but I don't have many "lucid dreams" per se. Despite the theoretical benefit, I actually don't think it's useful for me to go there. I work in some pretty heavy analytical aethers in my conscious state and I think I actually need my dreamstates to be sort of off-limits to analytical manipulating. I have worked with a number of meditation disciplines aimed at harnessing dreams states, kept the journal and all of that, read the books and followed the instructions to the letter. Yet still my brain says "no dice" pal. Upon careful reflection, I think that this may be for a reason in my own case.

Different strokes for different folks. I know others for whom this is virtually their whole magickal path so I am fully cognizant that it may be completely different for others...

m1thr0s

[Qaexl]

I lucidly dream almost every time I dream.

Connecting this with your other thread, "A foot in the water" -- have you tried that meditation in your lucid dream?

:-D

-Qaexl

[Alisa]

That is an amazing ability, Seipiriz. I rarely dream lucidly, but love it when I do. I don't think I've ever been able to set a scene either. But my dreams are amazing learning scenarios and I have reasonably good recall.

I also see the wisdom in what m1thr0s has said. I am beginning to believe that abilities are appropriated according to what will help an individual on their "path".

[m1thr0s]

Some people are able to access dreams on a level even more powerful than lucid dreaming. Bill Lear (inventor of the Lear Jet) had the ability to take complex technical data and "dream" the solution, even without consciously understanding all the variables. This is more in the way of a post-hypnotic suggestion skill than lucid dreaming exactly, yet the results are similar. Others are able to time-travel in dreams, others astral project etc.

Dreamstates can be used to reprogram ourselves or facilitate rapid learning and more. I think lucid dreaming is not something everyone can actually do, but if you can do it, you probably should be doing it with as much skill as possible. Besides the more recent schools of lucid dreaming, there are traditional schools that have been around for a very long time. I know that Tibetan Buddhism has its own branch of dreamstate mastery techniques and there must certainly be other schools as well...

I think it's pretty amazing stuff...I just don't seem to have any immediate aptitude for it.

m1thr0s

[Amur]

I've also developed a method of dreaming at any moment in time. Tried to heal the traumatized parts with it but have stumbled upon the amount of will it needs to be done. Somehow it's much easier to let another person trigger the healing inside.

Unfortunately my dreaming hasn't worked out for a while. Except lately when my logical aspect started to come into the dreaming process. Understood something very terrible hehe.

If only I could link the image processing back into waking consciousness. This way one can express the unconsciousness directly through images flowing through consciousness. The images are very exact and have a dream-scent to them.

[Seipiriz]

This may be amazing the first time you start to realise the power over your dreams but I feel it does not stack with the state of astral projection I am trying to achieve ... I have managed to hold myself and not do it because I need to get out of my dream bubble to project...Right now I am trying to convince myself to shut up but the dreamshaping is so nice:)

[Luciftias]

I've done quite a bit of work with lucid dreaming. I first learned to lucid dream as a kid as a way to deal with nightmares. I had ocassional lucid dreams until my teens when I learned the term "lucid dreaming." I discovered that people had figured out methods of making dream lucidity more common, and I started practicing these methods. My dream life became a massive part of my life in general and I started having way more lucid dreams. A couple times I was even able to manage to enter a lucid dreaming state directly from a waking state without losing consciousness or lucidity (sometimes called Wake Induced Lucid Dream or WILD.) These WILDs appeared to me to be identical with astral projection, just understood in a different way.

I find that when I don't do the practices, I don't have even close to as many lucid dreams. It's hard work, and it has to be maintained if I want continued results. Not only does it have to be maintained, but if I let it become routine, it stops being effective. I have to continue to find ways to kind of trick my mind into keeping a scepticism of reality. I've studied and incorporated ideas from the Tibetan Buddhist and Bon Shamanistic lucid dream practices into my personal practices. That helped keep it fresh. I find that I always tend to stop the practices for a while and then start back up. That seems to help too, although it would be better if I could avoid doing that. I'm currently in a down phase, but I think it's about time I got at it again.

When I found myself as a teenager having the lucid dream state regularly available to me, I started off using it solely for wish fufillment. I would fly around, do crazy-ass skateboard tricks or have sex. Things like that. Being a god of your own world is fun, but it can get boring. So I started trying to convince other dream characters that it was a dream. I spent a lot of time doing that - sometimes I was successful, many times I was not. I sometimes wonder what effect it may have had on me. I also started trying to do as many things in dream that I can't (or at least don't know how to) do while awake, like walking through walls, turning invisible, flying through the "solid" earth, shapeshifting, materialization of objects, telekenesis, etc... My next stage was to seek out and interact with entities that represented repressed parts of myself.

I really wish that I had an experienced teacher to help guide me through this, but luckily I did pretty good just trying to figure stuff out on my own. Currently I do a practice that allows me to access the sub/unconsious mind in a state that is more reliable and stable than the lucid dream state. However, I still see an immense value in simply attaining lucidity in dreams. According to Tibetan Buddhism, it is a vital skill to have if you wish to acheive enlightenment (ie "liberation from samsara") in the "bardo" (in between state) after death but before rebirth. If not liberation, they say that it can at least help you to positively influence the conditions of your rebirth.

I could write a book about this subject, so I'll just stop here for now. Dreaming and especially lucid dreaming has been a very important part of my path ever since childhood.

Luciftias

[Amur]

There's alot of areas which can be accessed via dreams as the interface gives a direct imput into ones symbolical part. The logical part seems to work more or less on somekind of linear-logicality, whereas it processes things while being in 'between' the dream-states. This is a state where most are usually unconscious and in a 'body-recovery' state. Whereas the deeper states provide access into the dream-scene.

edit note: Gah,... Sometimes I wonder why I even write at all :D

[Seipiriz]

I always had lucid dreams and many deja- vues in my life but now they have grown up to be a permanent everyday life thing like going to univercity ... About wild dreams you say, well I cant remember a single night without them and though many times I had control over them , there were times when they would go off straight into madness spirals...
Now after many months of practice I have developed Dreamshaping which is one step away from luci dreaming. When I say dreamshaping I mean that I am not only aware that I am dreaming but I can sort of pause the dream and create its next episode in full detail...
Recently my deja-vues have grown even more into numbers and recently I think I have lived an astral projection myself..I was out and having a walk with my girlfriend when the deja-vue started and when it ended I remember that last night I dreamed of my friend Joan meeting us there, I stopped and said : " Honey lets wait for Joan" and after a few seconds she arrived to the spot...

[Oroc]

Lucid Dreaming is something that I have experienced since i was a kid, i think. I had a lot of nightmares, but one day I woke up from a very nice dream and "decide" that i would come back to the Dream...it happened many times and I startrd to understand when I was dreaming and then manipulated the Dream. Then I had a nightmare with some Skeleton (lol) and I just transformed him in flowers...Nowadays I dream very little but most of the times I know that I am dreaming and sometimes I even manage to get off the dream, without awakening but being then conscious while i'm sleeping. Then everything is very sensitive and fast in your mind and I find it hard to keep that state long...If I try to get off of my body in Astral I get scared (i am really ashamed :( ) and if i try to wake up my body wont react automaticly, but then if I dont move i can fill like some very intense energy flowing in my hands.
Lately a new thing is happening to me...sometimes, rarely, i fall asleep and get conscious at that exact moment...then I can sense everything around me vibrating in a claustrofobic way...i had this experiences:
- many voices spinning aroud me, like waves
- seing a black and white image (with a strong light) that seemed like leaves of a tree moving because of some wind. This happens sometimes. After that happens sometimes i just instantly go conscious and feel myself inside my body (sleeping) but like in a dream...
- a kid talking to me. When I asked him to repear what he was saying he got surprised (scared???) and then I woke up.
- Bursts of noise like strong clapping hands, or something breaking.
- Very fast moving inside a house (flying)

I'm still trying to understand what is what, and to distinguish the diferent states one from another but most times it's very confusing and hard to remember.
I would like to discuss technics to use Dreams, Lucid Dreaming, Astral Projection. Maybe another tread would be nice.

Peace and hard work,

Oroc

[Kuroyagi]

Through careful meditation and practicing of Tantra I have developed the ability to dreamshape ( thats how I call it) . It is a state where I decide the time, place and storyline of my dreams and then let my mind express itself and me react to what is going on...

Has anything like that ever appeared to you ???

Let me know of your experienceI have also controlled my dreams and their content for a time, then I gave it up again and let them run on "automatic" letting them come as they came, simply cause this is more creative and fun. Though I havent arrived there via meditation and tantra but rather instrinsically- meaning revealing different layers/depths of dreams step by step and also learning to proceed further&further in my nightmares (not averting myself/fleeing/not falling for emotions or being deceived by them [this is very helpful for classical magic(k)- cause very many so called entities use emotions in combination with your/my memories to extricate energy etc..to learn to be blasé and to guard oneself is important!)...very much fun is a semi -controlled state where you can fly around etc...frankly I dunno where to draw the lines between various lucid dream states and astral projection and imagination though I myself experience various degrees of reality and intensity, but since I also happen to experience them when normally awake in daily life I cant theorize much about it...(maybe much of the occult lingo in this field is created in order to sell some books.)

A good side-effect which I experienced and havent read anywhere about is that its possible to remember all of the night as if you were awake and standing guard next to your bed while yet seeing dreams...I even checked w a doctor cause I was worried that I wouldnt actually get deep sleep which is necessary for health but I feel completely healthy and fresh and actually sleep BETTER, too...anyway this is where I am right now, but I dont actively "experiment" in this direction anymore just now....I guess it could be accomplished to spilt the spirit-body (or whatever its called) for more effective parallel timelines: so that you can do more things at the same time etc pp.

p.s. rarely I have had dreams that are of a scale that cant be compared to any other experience I have ever had- all of them were not self-initiated, btw..

[Luciftias]

Lucid Dreaming is something that I have experienced since i was a kid, i think. I had a lot of nightmares, but one day I woke up from a very nice dream and "decide" that i would come back to the Dream...it happened many times and I startrd to understand when I was dreaming and then manipulated the Dream. Then I had a nightmare with some Skeleton (lol) and I just transformed him in flowers...

Hey Oroc,
That's very similar to what happened with me. I used to have a lot of nightmares and then my parents said to me, "Well, they're your dreams. Don't let any monsters push you around in them." It blew my mind. I had never thought about that before. Then one day after that, I had a nightmare where a skeleton came after my mother. I realized that it was a dream and wasn't scared of the skeleton anymore. I pulled off my shirt and had a superman costume underneath (like in the movie) and I flew over and smashed the skeleton into dust.
Luciftias

[Seipiriz]

p.s. rarely I have had dreams that are of a scale that cant be compared to any other experience I have ever had- all of them were not self-initiated, btw..


This is what I call deep-dreaming, in those cases I get scared or better astonished by what appears to me as the idea of the vast infinty of everything...I cannot quite explain this but in those cases I get the feeling that I am nearly nothing compared to the Whole and I understand nothing compared to what the Whole understands...It is as if the whole universe says to me "Get a taste of what everything is..." Once I tried to stood up and compare myself with this... I still have an energy burn as a reminder ...

[zephfru]

hi, this is my 1st post here, i was reading some of the post then i saw this one.... "dreamshape"... well, i don't if i should say it but, since i remenber i had controlled all my dream, i meen really control... sometimes i wake so tired probably because of it. i meen control like in a movie or something, sometimes i see me from above, others in 1st person... if i want to see someone that person will "show" up neer me... i guess this could be something cool, but sometimes i dont like it, sometimes i just want not to control it, but then all stops... an i wait... and noting happens... thats why sometimes i beg not to dream...

well, as you could see, my english is not the best, sorry... feel free to talk, i'll be reading others posts.

be well

z

[Kuroyagi]

Here’s a fun “game” for ones dreams that I just discovered the other night: in short its to juggle with components which constitute your (inner) being. Everyone who gets into his dreams or does self-exploration will notice that certain themes are recurring. Often, as a consequence, one tries to consolidate them or look into them further. To name examples from my life: “math teacher” (from highschool whom I hated…this package had the tendency to anger me etc..) or “Venice” (more complicated: “pastlife” stuff, memories plus more complex ideas..) etcetc….what we did now was to throw those packages at each other respectively extricate them from each other and building some bigger artwork with them like in a very complicated poly-dimensional domino game. I say “we” cause there were other players (maybe earthen adepts of various times, or “entities”, didn’t care)…all this we did after having determinded a basic playground that served as a sort of fundament in which we also were present via some avatars of us, mostly in human form (so that lesser trained ones could cope/keep up)…[we went for ryokan (traditional Japanese inn which labyrinthine rooms made of paper and wood)]…can only recommend it! It not only teaches one even more detachment from ones components and lets one analyse them better as a consequence (afterwards) but its also a good training of ones direct skills- this stuff was really cool- you, together, can build some sort of macroprosopus, some Blakeian Albion or some unbelievable unhuman construct or other fascinating things, too. (maybe noone will know what Im even talking about…)

[feranaja]

I'm not sure I do know what you mean Kuroyagi. Can you walk me through it a bit? For example, two dreams I have a lot (don't laugh, the imagery is very obvious) One, I'm a goalie (lol) and all these NHL superstars are taking wild shots at me. I dream about hockey a lot, my brother was a walking encyclopeadia of the game and although I dont watch a lot, it's part of my history, plus the symbolism of having no chance to defend yourself is pretty transparent here. Now for a second recurrent dream, one I actually had last night, I am in jail or about to go to jail and I have no idea what for. Last night I was facing 5 years and I hadn't done a thing. So these are both victimization dreams which obviously fits with my waking life - my analyst used to say I was no fun at all, every dream I have takes 5 seconds to decode. How would I use your method with these two dreams? I'd just like to have them become part of my past.
fera

[Kuroyagi]

I can only suppose; you already seem to be recording your dreams for some time, right? The next step is to learn expecting them, be prepared for them and consequently change them respectively your take on the situation your are faced with- maybe you have to learn to awaken in your dreams, become lucid. There are many methods available I hear, but for me it was quite easy. After having written down some dreams over a couple of months and started to see the differences, e.g.: magically more relevant or more mundane etc, I simply did make a short note after the description of the dream cause I was already fed up by the ol semper idem (always the same) routine: so for example if you have the math teacher: I just wrote: next time: stay calm and do not take him seriously…important thing maybe is to not look into your dream diary to check- never (maybe after years if you like). The recurring themes you WILL notice and remember anyway. Another thing to learn is to carry this stuff into your mundane life- don’t make a difference between entities and humans, stop caring for artifical levels and labels like dream and awake- or play around with them: maybe you can start to get back at so called reality by starting to analyze it in your dreams instead of only to analyzing your dreams when awake. You are a 21st century magician and have more ideas available than others at other times.

You have to unlock the imagery to some extent: the images you produce or get bombarded with- though part of the whole- are in some sense mere superficialities, created by chance by your present life, your upbringing your past and the like. You have to face every aspect of them. Don’t belie yourself, don’t think that you have been accused innocently for example, but delight in your crime even if you have to invent it first (just an idea, you know better yourself anyway), the layers are all non-concrete and fuzzy, not as clearly cut as this linear written language or a body-mind-spirit differentiation would suggest: an image a feeling a memory cannot always be clinically divided but nothing NOTHIING can stand up to a creative mind. Faster than light travels the thought of a fulgurant imagination! (Information is non-local etc. etc.…make up your own phrases make poetry, you have to create your world or others will do it for you instead of together with them. You can do what you like: run around naked at night with a pack of black hounds like Hecate if you like…:))

Too many very intelligent and proficient magicians lack philosophical and artistic schooling- they are much too easily excited or angered. I see that this is even necessary to some degree, cause on the one hand they are very sensitive people and on the other one has to decide and be very assertive in order to create. But one needs rest, one needs a pause in which one sits back like a Deus Odiosus a Deus Absconditus (a leisurely and a hidden god) and only look on and rejoice in whats there without getting involved negatively- meaning to aesthetically enjoy all creation. This is the most god-like trait we have. After some aeons one will have to intentionally weaken oneself again, though. Else one withers and dies of boredom and self-sufficiency; once again one has to go down to the world again- alone or with a friend- in order to yet again prove ones own status to oneself anew. There are so many gods in human form who don’t make it anymore- who die self-forgotten and that’s it for them then. Maybe we will make it this time: Im actually quite optimistic to be honest. :)…Am I off topic YET??

p.s. Im quite against analysts btw- but this is probably cause I don’t live in North America…(also he seems to be a moron: how can he say that your dreams take 5sec to decode: fuck him, your are an infinite complex enigma and an eternal mystery even unto our best philosophers and then you have to put up with that crap! He must be a very unromantic and dogmatic person…what I mean to say is: don’t take yourself for granted: nothing is obvious- if you let yourself delude into the notion that it has to be this or that then you wont be able to creatively seek alternative solutions: Im not in a position to say anything about your life but I can only suggest examples: aim for the alternatives, whatever they may be: maybe you haven’t integrated your brother into your being yet and thereby you pine so much, cause had you done that he would be part of you- and closer then ever, yet the heart is also part of your body and it keeps you alive, but honestly: when have you last time thought about your heart???)

[Kuroyagi]

For mapping ones inner being, psychology- the last abdominal appendix of the sciences that was cut out from philosophy- is, compared to other systems like mythology, a highly inferior instrument.

I know many who have studied it; one woman (like so many who do) had started to learn it in order to solve her problems (but naturally she explained it by "wanting to help children with various disorders": typical hypocrite as one encounters so often, nearly completely unaware of her self).

Just like with everything else it is more enjoyable to learn something when you can establish a direct link to your own life and circumstances. Nowadays she is actually well off, inherited much money should be glad but she is a depressive alcoholic and seems to have forgotten all she once learned. Psychology at least must be supplemented with philosophy (for many reasons but the simplest is: that philosophy forces you to really think- at times).

I admire Jung and read him with pleasure but he has two shortcomings: his system is an inadequate tool for explaining myths and story-telling (mainly cause its too formalistic and doesnt allow for much flexibility), and its too reducing. (but this is OT, von Franz does that in extremis: all is pressed into a few main archetypes).

What I wanted to say is: I do not know, I am bit insensitive in this departement- but maybe what I described above is a very advanced practice. To "solve" ones problems with it, is completely beside its point. I would never have had the idea that it could ever be practical, maybe as a side-effect but to me this would seem a desecration, or no: maybe as something one does but neednt extra talk about- cause its all too obvious.

[Kazahel]

Through careful meditation and practicing of Tantra I have developed the ability to dreamshape ( thats how I call it) . It is a state where I decide the time, place and storyline of my dreams and then let my mind express itself and me react to what is going on...

Has anything like that ever appeared to you ???

Let me know of your experience

I've done/do something similar I guess. I can change the scene in lucid dreams pretty easily too. I just think the new scene and walk through a wall which comes out to another place. Or I spin around quickly for alittle till it blurs then I stop. That changes it too.. you spin while almost closing your eyes which open under the lids to another colour to focus on, then it rebuilds itself to your thoughts. I've done it with a night to day dream which was pretty.

Anyway I can dreamscape pretty good I think... I can choose the scene before I dream quite well when I want to, but I havent really tried to set a time exactly, or a storyline as much... usually I let that be the experience which kinda flows from the scene I find myself in. I also dont like to set the scene so much because I like to see where my mind takes me first. Then I might change the time, place and storyline more if I go lucid. You can also think about a scene you want to be lucid in.. so at the same time as when your focusing on setting the scene for your dream, also focus on being fully lucid in that scene. Then the scene triggers the lucidity kinda.

I'm pretty good at creating things in my lucid dreams though and changing things as I go along.. almost like dreamshaping but on the run maybe.. then I get the choice to flow with the dream if I like it, or I go more lucid to change it.