Immortality [Archive] - Abrahadabra Forums

m1thr0s

09-26-2006, 07:20 PM

I am sort of partial to the Sumerian Annunaki scenario personally. The Annunaki aren't actually immortals in the truest sense of the word...they just live a very very long time relative to a human lifespan, plus they hang out in space a lot which adds additional time on to their already extended lifespans.

So in this version of "the gods" we find beings who are life-extension experts but technically can still die. This strikes me as a very practical "next step" for human beings as well. What concerns me about becoming a true "immortal" is the whole idea of living out that immortality in a body & mind that cannot really appreciate the magnitude of it just from a raw energy standpont. I would be happy to be truly immortal about the time I was as big as a whole universe for instance...until then I think I would rather just be able to "trade up" as needed...

I suspect there are rungs to universal evolution we simply aren't aware of yet. We are so accustomed to being at the top of the food chain that we lose track of just how small we really are at the magnitude of whole universe...we barely count as atoms compared to this.

So I am extremely interested in the "next step" but not too fixated on the final goal since I estimate that this goal is about as hard for us to grasp as a computer might be to a mosquito...

m1thr0s

MythMath

09-26-2006, 10:06 PM

It seems that a vast portion of the knowledge that
we receive (from books, recordings, art, etc.) was
produced by individuals that are no longer living...

So, in one sense, a way to achieve
immortality is to publish your work...

Just ask Gutenberg (or m1thr0s)...;)

Mazel Tov...

Zaii

09-27-2006, 01:19 AM

"One has to pay dearly for immortality; one has to die several times while one is still alive."

-Nietzsche

m1thr0s

09-27-2006, 06:08 AM

So, in one sense, a way to achieve
immortality is to publish your work...That's very true, although I must admit that it is sort of a *resigned* truth. Sooner or later we hit the wall of our own mortality until perhaps one of us one day manages to jump right over the damn thing and then we have a whole new playing field. But in all likelihood, that person will be standing on the backs of many thousands and millions and billions of those who came before him/her, each putting in their little bits and paying their tabs in spades.

So the survival of knowledge that really needs to survive in order to make that "someday" precedent possible is nothing small or insignificant. Our creative works, afterall, are very often the only part of us that anyone ever really got to know anyway. It's the people who think they know you the best just because they know something of your habits that know you the least of all.

Still...if somebody happens to hand me a golden apple while walking down the street someday...I'm probably just dumb enough to risk it...

m1thr0s

...

09-27-2006, 06:47 AM

A pupular theme with spiritual taoism is immortality. Like mithros said, though, it is not 'literally' forever-- but rather you just live hundreds of years.
There is a buddhist text in which buddha describes several 'classes' of immortals... I can dig it up if anyone is interested.

A taoist practice to achieve immortality... which is a late step, is growing a 'spiritual fetus' within you, and then moving it out, and somehow transfering your consciousness onto it.
In this way, you lose your body, but live through your etheric body. (think jesus, when he 'rose from death.')
The trouble with this though, is that you will still eventually 'die', when your spiriutal body runs out of energy, and you will cease as you merge with the 'wu-chi' or whatever.

I have read of 'vampires'.. people who lose their physical bodies, but manage to avoid the 'second death' but feeding on the vital energies of living people.
I know that it sounds absolutely terrible, but I would jump at a chance to 'live on' in this manner. (I can always feed off bad people, right?)

------

My biggest question is so-- I treasure the ego, (unlike the buddhists,) and feel that without the ego, supreme bliss goes on unappreciated. The cruel irony for the buddhists, I feel, is that when they dissolve the ego and ascend or whatever, they cease to exist themselves... And though there may be 'great bliss,' there is no one there to experience the great bliss =(

anyways.. my question is this: can the ego continue with us after the death of the physical body? Can we still think, and daydream, and have a will? What will we lose when we lose the brain???

Rin Daemoko

09-27-2006, 07:59 AM

Death is an illusion. Immortality is already a fact of life. A cloud becomes rain or snow or ice. The cloud does not die or cease to exist. It's in the rain now. It's changed, not dead.

m1thr0s

09-27-2006, 09:41 AM

Clouds have no sense of themselves that we know of...nothing to strive after, nothing to protect, neither love nor hunger nor loss nor gain. Isn't it just a little presumptuous to compare the heart and mind of a human being to the souless matter of a cloud?

Pretty though they may be, yet only in the eye of an beholder...

Yet I agree death is an illusion...but the cost is not so completely inconsequential.

Death, I think, like any aspect of Change, is intended to be mastered in time...put to the task of Will itself...not left to the whim of Reason.

m1thr0s

...

09-27-2006, 11:07 AM

death is not an illusion.
The ego might be illusory, a mere consequence of it's enviroment and conditioning... But to the ego, the ego is NOT illusory, and to the ego, DEATH is not illusory.

and, friend, we ARE the ego.

m1thr0s

09-27-2006, 11:53 AM

I think when we say this we only mean to assert that its *permanence* is not what it seems. certainly death occurs. we would be a little braindead to have failed to notice this.

I also am one who believes that Ego does not die...that it endures somehow and must continually reevaluate itself based on all available information. When death occurs this must certainly bring about a radical shifting of gears. One may even pass through a veil of forgetting as one presumably does at birth. But a record of itself remains somewhere and is in some cases recallable as in the case of past-life memories...some of which are certainly false...some not. This is a known problem with memory itself but does not render all such memories false.

I think we cannot rely upon a new-age enthusiasm for ditzing Ego...we would be nothing without it and I don't even know that *Nothing* is without some sense of itself somehow...

m1thr0s

Luciftias

09-27-2006, 11:58 AM

Cool subject matter. I knew it was bound to come up here eventually, seeing as this list has a lot of LHP people.

First of all, I think it would be helpful to clarify the term "immortal". As ... mentioned, there is a kind of hierarchy of immortality types. I didn't know that Buddhism had such a list, but I have seen a couple different Taoist lists. Usually they boil down to these basic types:

Immortal Ghosts - This is the soul (personality or ego) of a person surviving the death of the physical body and subsisting in this state for longer than usual, often described as subsisting on the emotional energy of the living. It is usually described as undesirable.

Physical Longevity - Basically, it's exactly what it sounds like. The lower end of the spectrum includes just the slowing down of aging and better resistance to illness - say, for example, someone who lives to 150 years old. It extends all the way to the complete cessation of aging and illness - with a potential physical lifespan of thousands of years. And everything in between. In the lower end, the person will still eventually die of old age (unless they attain the next stage first), and in all cases, the person can still experience an untimely death (such as a car accident or being shot.)

True Immortality - In this case, the person no longer experiences aging, sickness or even injury. They have a perfect and incorruptable body that doesn't require food, sleep, shelter or even air. They can participate in the physical, but have abilities similar to a person having a lucid dream. They can also travel bodily through all realms, whether physical or spiritual (a division which no longer really exists for them.)

I personally think that these types of immortality are possible.

I think that ghosts probably happen all the time. I've heard the theory that when a loved one dies, that if you can accept it quickly it is better, because extended intense emotional greiving keeps them earthbound and delays their "moving on." I don't imagine that there is a lot of value in this form of "immortality." Seems to me like it would be more of a form of bondage. You would be a slave to your fear of disolution and would be wrapped up in invoking intense emotions in the living. I can't see that as being very satisfying. I imagine the ghost would likely not even be aware of their state, but would be like a person in a non-lucid dream.

Physical longevity seems to be the most likely form of "immortality" that would be desirable. There is so much to accomplish in this life and so little time to do it. Then we have to start all over from birth, losing at least 15 years time in just learning how to survive, and not having conscious access to the memories of our past incarnations except perhaps fragments or a certain innate aptitude. Imagine if Albert Einstein, Nicola Tesla, Beethoven, Picaso or Nietzsche had even 25 more years of life available to them. Just think of what any one of them could accomplish in that time. Now imagine if they had an additional one or two hundred years, or more!

Obviously true immortality would be the goal, but I believe that it would be the very rare individual that would be able to accomplish it within a single standard lifespan. I imagine that for most people, at least a few hundred years of steady work, uninterrupted by physical death, would be necessary to make the jump to true immortality.

Personally, I feel that the combination of lab alchemy and inner alchemy is a valid path towards true immortality. That's why I'm engaged in it. The biggest obstacles on this path would be to avoid laziness, fixation on false teachings, insanity and untimely death (possibly through persecution.) Ingestion of properly made alchemical preparations and work on the repair/unification of the inner self should provide the practictioner with Physical Longevity, and eventually True Immortality.

Luciftias

fr.novumorganum

09-27-2006, 04:07 PM

i believe that life extension technology is much closer than the general population dares to realize. Telemer research is the most promising are IMHO.

While were on this topic, what do you all think of cryonic freezing. If I do die, I want to be frozen.

m1thr0s

09-27-2006, 04:13 PM

all I really know is that it's terribly expensive. I wouldn't want to unload that burden on my remaining family personally. And even if I had the millions it might require it would seem a better investment to spend that somewhere else...

but I can understand the logic of it otherwise. I am the kind of person who is very likely to die of something they find the cure for 30 minutes after I am dead...lol

m1thr0s

Luciftias

09-28-2006, 10:11 AM

I am the kind of person who is very likely to die of something they find the cure for 30 minutes after I am dead...lol

hahaha. or 30 minutes after your maintance fee at the cryonics lab runs out.

chaos_mage4

09-29-2006, 09:32 PM

Thanks guys for the replies. I should have been more specific, but my question's been answered for the most part. I was talking about "true immortality" about the physical staying forever, but then again, if that is true, then I guess the spirit would be forever as well.
Anyway, I was just thinking about it and decided to post it on here. Because I was thinking all of the things one could do if they were immortal. I was thinking like changing the world, heck you could walk up to the leaders and smack 'em right on the face and they wouldn't be able to do anything lol.
Thanks,
~Christopher

m1thr0s

09-29-2006, 11:37 PM

Because I was thinking all of the things one could do if they were immortal. I was thinking like changing the world, heck you could walk up to the leaders and smack 'em right on the face and they wouldn't be able to do anything lol.Well...this is a very heavy topic all in itself...how you would go about affecting change in things if you were not only immortal but omnipotent as well. Or even "potent" enough to amount to the same thing in practical terms.

It gets tricky as you delve further into it. It may not serve your own best advantage to be obvious about things for instance. People are full of deceit...you can enforce some things but can you enforce those things that people have to enforce within themselves? And if you want change to occur on that level, you have to allow people to affect that change for themselves or it isn't real...it's just some act to appease the new "regime", in this case, yourself!

The Taoists say that the wisest of rulers affect change in such a way that people will say things have "happened of themselves". This really is a brilliant insight corresponding to the requirements of the so-called "godman", by whatever other name we may give it. Quick example: what if one day all the plutonium in the world had suddenly turned into graham crackers? no big splash. no headlines. no tv coverage. just happened and that's all. Do you really think the leaders in this world would say anything about it? How would they know it had happened universally and not just to them? If they talk about it it could be the end of them.

They would say nothing, but behind closed doors all kinds of change begins to happen..."of itself"...so to speak. Suddenly finding peaceful solutions to economic problems might be a whole lot more attractive. I get the distinct impression that much of the kinds of change that might be possible in this way would need to follow this general guidelines. No new Deal. No new Morality. No new Dogma. just a little change in the weather. Might as well learn to live with it...there's no sense railing against the weather...

And bear this in mind...the "godman" is no longer just a man...he really is a whole-on "force of nature"...

m1thr0s

Seipiriz

09-30-2006, 04:21 AM

Death is the state when the Ouroboros coiled dragon bites his tail...It is not an ending, it is just the closing of the circle and the begining of it once more...

Immortality does not interest me...

I understand that my physical body is prone to the withering effects of time as it appears in the tri-dimensional world, through the final destruction of my body energy and spirit are allowed to proceed to higher energy and iteration levels thus percieving an upper state of existance to explore and understand...

Death is the way that you understand more , I do feel sorry when someone dies but only because I will not see him for some time, however I wouldn't dare to deprive someone of his death cause it would mean depriving him of the knowledge...

m1thr0s

09-30-2006, 05:54 AM

I think if people were more accustomed to dyng the way they would like to die there wouldn't be so much fuss about it in general. As it is death and dying are shoved off into some taboo corner of consciousness and treated like an unwanted relative holed up in the garage or something. We have no class in our approach to death, thus it frightens us. We do not celebrate it so it haunts and terrifies. Unfortunately none of this will likely change very soon. People enjoy being ignorant I think...it makes them feel somehow superior to...what...monkeys? Monkeys don't give a shit about death one way or the next though so the last laugh is on us and our own pathetic attachment to self-mutilation...

ah well...this too must pass I suppose...

m1thr0s

...

10-01-2006, 02:48 PM

I don't want to die. I would love to live forever. I understand that the ego is probably mostly, (if not entirely,) illusory... but still, this knowledge does not shatter my sense of self.

I am going to be very point-blank and very blunt, here--

You don't fucking know what happens when you die. The minute you pretend to know is the minute you begin lying to yourself and closing your mind off into a box.

How can you verify these RIDICULOUS claims about the after-life? Sure, even I have my guesses, but I recognize them as such-- GUESSES.

These notions you have about the afterlife appear to me as ridiculous sounding as the average christian pre-teens thoughts on heaven. Why? because you have no proof.

...Or are you just trying to 'fool' yourself out of fear of death?

(sorry if this is too offensive. someone must have hit a sensitive spot.)

m1thr0s

10-01-2006, 03:15 PM

How can you verify these RIDICULOUS claims about the after-life? Sure, even I have my guesses, but I recognize them as such-- GUESSES.

These notions you have about the afterlife appear to me as ridiculous sounding as the average christian pre-teens thoughts on heaven. Why? because you have no proof.

...Or are you just trying to 'fool' yourself out of fear of death?Who the hell is "you"? If you're going to go off on somebody, at least let us know who you're going off on please...

As for myself, I really draw no such conclusions about death as you seem to imagine. From a pure energy standpoint we know that death does not really occur...on a subatomic level not one particle is lost due to the process of death. Rather the physical body decomposes and its elements are reassembled elsewhere. That's what death actually is on a scientific level...particle redistribution and nothing more...

So that leaves personality and ego and everything we typically regard as *ourselves*. I have no reason to believe this ever dies and you are not providing any proof that it does. We are all of us guessing on this one I think. My guess leans into the opinions of many centuries of tantric masters from all across the globe...but it's still just a guess. I never claimed it was anything else. A guess is neither stupid nor not-stupid...it's just a guess...

You seem to be overreacting to something...care to be more specific?

m1thr0s

...

10-02-2006, 12:50 AM

you're right, man, it was an over-reaction, and lacks any real justifcation.

Perhaps I felt like I was being told what happened after death, de facto.

oh, well....

m1thr0s

10-02-2006, 01:20 AM

people have very strong opinions about these things and may not always stop for the courtesy of saying "I think" this or "in my opinion" that...but really...when you get right down to it...that's all anybody has to offer on stuff like this so it seems a little anal to belabor the obvious in this way...

Unless of course somebody actually has the true-blue *facts* of the matter, in which case I would like to purchase stock in his/her company asap...lol

m1thr0s

Luciftias

10-02-2006, 12:00 PM

Sometimes I feel like it's a waste of time to ponder what happens after death, since nobody can ever truely know until they go through it. However, it appears to be a massive change from physical life, and many people would like to prepare for it. How can you prepare for it if you don't know what kinds of preparations would be valuable, if any? Hence, why it is important to ponder what happens after death.

I have based my current best guess on Hermeticism, Taoist and Tibetan teachings, as well as observations of the physical world.

The fundamental Hermetic axiom is, "As below, so above; and as above so below." Also, in Hermetic Alchemy, everything is composed of three parts: Salt, Sulphur and Mercury - which is also sometimes stated as Body, Soul and Spirit (respectively.) When the physical Body dies, it decomposes and it's components are redistributed and re-used to create other bodies. I believe that for most people, a similar process happens to their Soul, the part we usually refer to when we say, "I". On it's plane of existance, it breaks down, it's components get redistrubted and re-used to create other souls. The Spirit, however, as the opposite end of the spectrum from the Body, resides in Unity rather than multiplicity, and doesn't really "die" but only appears to arises and disolve in the unity of existance like a wave in an ocean. The Spirit, residing in Unity, is essentially the same Spirit for everyone.

In Hermetic Alchemy, the ultimate goal is to purify and then unite the three parts, creating the quintessence. Depending on how far along a person is in this goal when they die, the Soul may be sufficiently free of the "caput mortum" (literally "death's head" - the force of death and decomposition) to avoid decomposition and redistribution - referred to as "the second death" in some biblical texts. It is only those who survive the second death that would experience reincarnation as we usually think of it - unless they obtain "liberation" in the "bardo", but that's another story.

From what I understand of my limited studies in Taoism, this is essentially how Taoists view the death process, although I developed this theory based primarily on Hermetic principles. So anyways, that's my personal "best guess." It means that I should try and acheive the goal of becomming the quintessence as far as I can while alive, and if I die before reaching the goal, I may be able to salvage at least some of that work and start again in a new physical vessel.

Luciftias

Ðanisty

10-02-2006, 02:36 PM

I can't say I really have any opinions on an afterlife. Like Luciftias, I don't really see much point in wondering since we can't know anyway. Whatever happens, happens.

m1thr0s

10-02-2006, 06:22 PM

So anyways, that's my personal "best guess." It means that I should try and acheive the goal of becomming the quintessence as far as I can while alive, and if I die before reaching the goal, I may be able to salvage at least some of that work and start again in a new physical vessel.This is one of the more practical reasons for looking at the issue at all...this whole matter of a conscious continuance of a whole process of becoming which can easily consume more years than our mortal frames can typically accomodate.

I can't remember where I read this but somebody calculated just exactly how much time the average human being actually has to spend on *esoteric* kinds of issues after all the necessities of life expendiatures are factored out and it came in at around a paultry 10 years on average. A very few people (like myself for instance) might actually manage to get a few more years than this by blowing off some of those *necessities* but we then pay a very high price for that in terms of social stigma and lack of resources as we get older. People don't respect this kind of commitment anymore and they can't even imagine that it may actually be on their behalves that such sacrifices are often made.

Society, in general, just as people en masse, are really not worth the sacrifice anyway. Governed by ignorance, greed and fear, and eager to spread their infectious disease at any available opportunity, were it not for pure academic itself (and a certain motivated self-interest corresponding), there would be little point to bothering with any of it at all really. But the academic remains and ultimately impacts us all, so the sacrifices continue to be made on behalf of its eventual resolution...albeit by the few under duress by the many.

The possibility of changing vehicles at will has always been one of the key attractions behind the attempt to understand and master the Body of Light itself. We needn't die to be able to experience the transferring of consciousness into one or another higher *vessels* or *rungs* within this expanded neural network, so the question finally boils down to being able to do so at will, at any time of our own personal choosing. The main reason for wanting to achieve this is not so much a matter of wanting to cash in on some bounty of immortality as it is simply wanting to be able to preserve and continue a life's progress in general.

More disturbing than death (for some of us) is the whole idea of having to start in from scratch rebuilding a degree of understanding and mastery that may not even be half so possible in the next life as it may have been in this one. While I have always thought it was reasonable to speculate on the end result of having mastered these kinds of knowledge, in the final analysis this whole idea of a simple conscious continuance is more immediately relevant to most of us.

m1thr0s

Alisa

10-03-2006, 01:16 AM

I have spent the last 2 years seeking an answer to what happens after we die. My interest was piqued when my mom told me her deceased mother visited her. It was meaningful to me because it was my mom (and I could vouch for her honesty, and her severe lack of imagination in conjuring this up).

I had not spent any time pursuing this matter beforehand because nothing had ever moved me to think that there could truly be something to investigate. I began by reading all of the near-death experiences I could find on line and in books. This led directly to books on reincarnation and the viable research done by Ian Stevenson. Amazingly, by reading hundreds and hundreds of stories related by others, it was becoming hard not to believe that the soul is eternal and that our current life is just one of the many facets of our existence.

m1thr0s

10-03-2006, 02:15 AM

That's interesting about your mom's visitation Alisa, and in a way brings up another important point. We sort of take it for granted that nobody has any "proof" of life after death but what we are really saying is that there is no known clinical scientific proof...that the departed do not typically report to their nearest available science testing facility and submit to a battery of tests aimed at convincing the scientific community of the reality of an afterlife.

In all probability modern science itself lacks the technical sophistication to provide such a proof anyway, so there would be very little point in that case of anyone attempting to make this possible. We don't even know what kind of energy we are trying to measure, and if the Body of Light is composed of a kind of energy we know nothing about, then there would be no point attempting to measure it at all.

What we do have is thousands and thousands of eyewitness accounts attesting to one or another encounters with people (and animals) presumed to be dead. It would be easy enough to say that the same can be said of UFO's and thus dismiss the matter by association, as it were, but again we have no way to confirm what percentage of UFO reports are real, imagined or fabricated. What we can observe is that even in those cases where the evidence would seem to be overwhelmingly affirmative, the "proof" is almost always still rejected for having failed to comply with clinical scientific protocols and is very soon forgotten by the general public as an "unexplained" phenomenum that science has been unable or unwilling to classify.

So we should at least weigh this into our assessments when we say that no such "proof" exists. Define "proof"! There might be all kinds of very good reasons for not allowing certain kinds of knowledge to become absolutely certified scientific knowledge, not the least of which being that science itself is an extremely amoral force in things that constantly sells off its goods and services to the highest bidder to do with as it pleases. The less clinical science can be sure of certain things, the safer we all are as a result...

m1thr0s

...

10-03-2006, 02:47 AM

I would define 'proof' as something 100% convincing to me, (personally.)

I am not bought on the whole 'visited by the dead' or 'ghost' thing-- I have read somewhere that 'ghosts' are merely egotistical 'imprints' of the physical body, (and its mental aspects,) onto the etheric body...

There is a story of a ghost who sits in the window every night, awaiting her husband. (she sits in the window waiting, because this was the 'will' to do so was so strong it imprinted itself on the etheric body, and the etheric body continues to act oout on this will...)

Obviously, I am very doubtful that the ego can exist in its current form without the physical brain. Without the continuous self-awareness, ability to think, desire, will... perhaps all that exists in our etheric bodies after death are these 'imprints' our physical bodies and ego's leave behind?

Now, I am not going to say that this is MORE likely an explanation than anyone elses... but it is easily AS likely an explanation, you know? At least so far as I see it...

m1thr0s

10-03-2006, 02:58 AM

well...all evidence I have says we don't know a tenth of what the "brain" really is...nor the body itself for that matter...

in the case of so-called ethereal imprints...what exactly is being imprinted upon?

m1thr0s

motsie

10-03-2006, 03:11 AM

Why hello ... . Thank you for gracing me with your opinion. I'm sure that many clamor to be enlightened by you. As it turns out, I, also, have an extensively developed viewpoint regarding the topic of reincarnation. In the spirit of reciprocity, I will share some of my thoughts on this topic.

Well given that the degree of personality overlap from one life to the next is largely based upon the ability to integrate the incarnate mental structure with the previous knowledge base, I am willing to concede that you, ... , probably aren't going to be with us on the big wheel of life. But I am equally certain, that unless your etheric essence is somehow shredded and consumed by demonic beings during ill-considered jaunts to the lower realms, some manifestation of your energy will incarnate with new management.

I, believe with a faith like unto a Christian, pre-teen which I had to wrest from her cold dead hands (she won't be coming back), that I will reincarnate distressingly soon after death because I am currently engaged in the second step of a three step multi-incarnational working to resolve some issues which trouble my balance. If I stay fleshless too long, it will be hard to maintain my focus and complete the third step. Tell you what, leave a note for yourself with me and I'll be glad to deliver it to you next time around.

Oh and by the way, I would rather have my eyeballs removed through my asshole than live in the same body forever. I am 47 now and because of the scope of my current working I will live longer than I usually do. Shifting to a new body and set of circumstances, is the only way that I know to integrate understanding of the convoluted energetic relationships that form the structure of the multi-plane. If I don't succeed in creating within myself an accurate model of the macrocosm and I won't be able to have a satisfyingly complex relationship with the Dragon when I transcend flesh.

For you see, I am a conscious part of the Great Work and as such I have a schedule. You, sir, don't seem to concerned with accretional evolution. Good luck with that.

motsie

motsie

10-03-2006, 03:15 AM

in the case of so-called ethereal imprints...what exactly is being imprinted upon?

m1thr0s

I believe that would be the dense accumulation of manifested perception shaped by the dynamics of the energetic balance inherent in the multi-verse.

But you say tomatoe ... .

motsie

motsie

10-03-2006, 03:21 AM

Am I the only one here who believes themselves to be utilizing mental structure developed over multiple lifetimes? How the hell do you think that you got so smart m1thr0s? No one else just "knows" things?

I must have got the only CrackerJack box with a prize.

motsie

m1thr0s

10-03-2006, 04:24 AM

you seem pretty hostile to me motsie...I'm not sure why that is. I suspect you have some idea about what I am all about that isn't actually as it seems...

I am of course a proponent of the Body of Light and the Body of Light at its higher rungs is hardly what you would call "just one body"...as you get into its higher stratas it becomes more frinctionless with the Mind itself while the Mind, in turn is also much freer and more in sync with Universe at large. Thus the Body is able to assume many many forms...as many as it pleases...

So if I am challenging anything in what you have said, it is simply the nature of what we call "the brain"...I have no idea where you get any of these other ideas you seem to be harboring towards me...

they have nothing to do with me at all, actually...

m1thr0s

motsie

10-03-2006, 10:20 AM

m1thr0s,

I am so sorry to have given you the impression that I was hostile to you. I actually like you quite a bit. And I have tremendous respect for your analytical abilities. I meant all references to your intellect as compliments. I frequently sneak in an puzzle over the mathmatical relationships you work with. I have known others who have developed their intellect to a comparative level and without fail they did so through the gradual accretion of data over multiple lifetimes. That is my method of retaining past knowledge and technical skills.

I apologize for my harsh speech. I meant to jest. Apparently I failed. I will also offer my apologies to the gentllemen who doesn't credit belief in an afterlife. I was had no right to respond so harshly. Based on the tone of his post, I assumed he was feeling conversationally frisky, so I was going to play.

Incarnational strategies is a favorite topic for me and I was looking forward to checking what responses had been posted since last night. Apparently, I'm too rowdy and I'll take my leave. Please accept my apologies to all. I sincerely meant no harm.

motsie

m1thr0s

10-03-2006, 11:29 AM

I have no sense of past-life accruals of knowledge in the work that I do or the kinds of breakthroughs I have been fortunate to have made. Unlike conventional analysts, most of the serious scrutinizing I do is done as a combination of data chunking and aggressive scrying activity...in other words...I work these tools and I work them very hard and where there are gaps in the logic or more efficient ways and means available, they have tended to surface as a result of this particular approach to things.

I also ascribe a certain kind of intelligence to symbols themselves, the more powerful of which might be compared to the notion of archangels or "archons", "aeons" and so forth. The TwinStar, for instance was a kind of revelation that I always felt was essentially shown to me by means of aggressively working with the LoShu magickal square...again as a scrying/weaving tool and not just something to look upon and ponder... This raw (tantric) athleticism is something that is able to "burn" through layers of hidden wisdom unlike any other method I have ever encountered.

So I have felt that it was possibly more likely that, owing to the quality of light pouring off of these emblems, I have been, at times, able to tap into levels of secret knowledge that many others appear to have missed. All knowledge, however it may be obtained, still has to pass a range of tests to be considered true and binding, so I am not one to trust anything on the basis of how it was obtained. Still, it has been my impression that some of the most important things I have learned I have learned through a kind of special instruction not as readily available to those who have not rooted it out in this particular kind of way...

Perhaps that will prove useful in some way to have revealed...

m1thr0s

gryphon20032003

10-03-2006, 11:30 AM

Hello all! I'm new to this forum; and I saw this topic which is very personal to me... So let me see if I can add anything. It seems to me the basic question of ACTUAL AND REAL immortality is what everyone is looking.?.?. The only knowledge I can add to that is this - If you are reborn in a new body with all your lifetimes of knowledge intact that is the first step into the Holy Grail or Unholy Grail however you look at it. The next tidbit of knowledge I can lend would be this - there's a very intelligent lady who is what I would term a Vampire and she can be found on the internet or TLC or in the Library. She calls herself a Spiritual Vampire but she's just being coy, me thinks... I'll write later let me see how well this is received..
Love is the Law

Anibis

10-03-2006, 11:46 AM

I would define 'proof' as something 100% convincing to me, (personally.)

Just so you know, you are opening yourself only to mathematical proofs, here. Traditionally science (at least the sort concerned with the outside word) tends to use the empirical method which is essentially the observation of phenomena. One can make a scientific judgement upon a thing once you have observed it behave in a certain way under certain conditions many times in a repeatable manner. This does NOT constitute a % 100 proof however, since, all empirical (using the senses) observation depends on the mode of reasoning called 'inductive reasoning'. An inductive argument could run: The sun rises each morning, therefore it will rise tommorow." As you can see this is quite sufficient for most scientific judgements to be made, but it is not %100. Note the pig who assumes that the farmer is coming to feed him this morning because he has done so each morning so far(but this morning he has a big knife...) The only proofs that are ever %100 are proofs that rely on 'deductive reasoning'(where you eliminate all possible alternatives). Deductive reasoning, however, only functions within a closed system of parameters, based on an assumed set of rules called 'axioms'. So, within the rules of math, you can get proof positive that 2+2=4. or within a system of formal logic you can say, for sure that 'if all cats are green, and Drunvalo is a cat, then Drunvalo is green'. BUT, notice that that still does not prove that Drunvalo is a green cat. He's only a green cat if all cats are green, and guess what? In order to discover that you need INDUCTIVE reasoning. in other words, if we are actually using science here, we gotta give up on the fetishizing of %100 proof and go with careful and meticulous observation (which does not mean we can't use deductive reasoning along the way)...

SO, with that being said, what can we garner about the nature of the soul by talking to people, reading accounts, and experimenting by ourselves? It's all guesswork my friends... there is nothing that isn't. Some guesswork however just 'works'... There is my rant...
-Ibisis-

Amur

10-03-2006, 11:47 AM

I think it's also possible to propel out with this physical vehicle, and go into some other dimension if one wants to. But in the end I would like to see the physical vehicle left behind to the planet, as it is it's to belong with. In this sense I await the freedom it has to offer to leave this vehicle behind.

Pranic awakening, is also a form of awakening to the Body of Light itself, or ones own Microcosms. Been searching for some Absolute Truth for over 3 years and prying here and there, checking one polarity to the next for something to lay a foundation upon. Reality after reality... Now I'm coming back to see what can be achieved with the information. There apparently are some truths to be found in hardwired processes(like Being God Dreaming all of this versus it's polarity Everything is Nothingness with Structures built as illusions) in the brain and the physical vehicle itself. But they are only the beginning of the journey and not the end. In the end it seems that it is Infinite and being that, anything can have it's form within it. Imagine searching for some absolute reality within this infinity *grin*. Quite the long quest.

The Beautiful Spheres, who seem to come visit everynow and then is something which fascinates me with their abundant love, energy and Beauty. The light they emit is beautiful and unique somehow.

From experiences of both kundalini and activating the physical aspect of the crown... It has shown that there is alot of potential that has been made in the physical body. Once the physical emotional blockages/attachments have been removed, I can almost imagine a God-like state of very clear beingness. Being in this state it is straightforward to change whatever one needs to get something done. As the Body of Light responds directly, it is easily transmuted from one form to another. Perhaps this is the Higher Self, or Future Selves...

Checking from our very own topology, it is quite easy to conclude that Circle -> Sphere (infinite circles) -> HyperSphere(Infinite Spheres) -> 5th Sphere(Infinite Hyperspheres) and so on. It is almost easy to hereby see that the Body of Light is in fact 4th dimensional instead of our common 3D world we are used to going about in.

Luciftias

10-03-2006, 12:42 PM

This is one of the more practical reasons for looking at the issue at all...this whole matter of a conscious continuance of a whole process of becoming which can easily consume more years than our mortal frames can typically accomodate.
<snip>
More disturbing than death (for some of us) is the whole idea of having to start in from scratch rebuilding a degree of understanding and mastery that may not even be half so possible in the next life as it may have been in this one. While I have always thought it was reasonable to speculate on the end result of having mastered these kinds of knowledge, in the final analysis this whole idea of a simple conscious continuance is more immediately relevant to most of us.

Exactly. It seems to me that "the process of becoming" is likely to take more time than we can expect to have without intervention. Knowing this, the immediate goal should be to seek methods of extending the amount of time we have to persue the Great Work. We also have to be careful that the time invested in effective life extention does not exceed the payout. The exception would be if this work also happens to be furthuring your path and not just giving you more time. For example, if you are an alchemy student, work on the vegetable realm (the Lesser Work) will prepare you for work in the mineral realm (the Great Work) and will also provide you with ingestable products which should help extend your physical life by at least a bit. The mineral work will provide you with yet more powerful products to ingest, giving yet more time.

You mentioned hijacking some of the usual aspects of being human and using that time for the Work. Certainly this includes a full spectrum of lifestyles. Taken to it's logical conclusion, it results in cloistered life - either as monks and nuns in some sort of Order, or as a hermit. I've considered it more than once but always end up deciding that participating in the world presents certain challenges and oportunities that I would personally rather not short circuit. It's a different approach. Not saying that either is inherently better or worse than the other.

One of the reasons that I'm so excited about lucid dreaming and Tibetan sleep yoga is because it presents a potential windfall of extra time to persue my path. If we are sleeping close to 8 hours a day, then we are spending about a third of our lives asleep. Over three out of the next ten years will be spent asleep. That's huge! According to modern sleep research, about 20% of sleeping time is spent in REM, the phase where the most vivid dreams are experienced. That's approx. 7 months every 10 years.

Just for argument's sake, lets imagine a person attaining stability in their lucid dreaming practices by the time they are 40 years old to harness 50% of their REM sleep for use in their path. Lets also assume that the person is able to continue in their physical life to the age of 80 years old. This person will have increased the time available to devote to their path by 14 months - lets continue to be conservative in this estimate by rounding down to a year. One year may not seem like a lot, but that's not just a regular year full of working, eating, shopping or sleeping. That's a whole year of round-the-clock work without stopping to rest. If what m1th0s said about the average person having only about 10 years of life to dedicate to esoteric subjects is true, than this will effectively increase that person's time to 11 years. That would equal approx. another 8 years of regular life, and that's not even counting the dream time harnessed before the age of 40.

There is also a way to harness non-dreaming sleep. There are Tibetan yogic techniques for attaining and maintaining full conscious awareness during non-dream sleep. This is usually used as a very powerful substitute for waking meditation. Not only does it harness that otherwise unused time, but it also frees up time that would have been spent in meditation during waking hours. In addition, it is said to produce better results than waking meditation.

Lets bring back the example of the person above. Let's say that the person typically spends about 2.5 hours of waking time every week meditating. That's only about 20 minutes a day. Let's assume that the person is able to effectively and consistantly replace all of this with conscious non-dream sleep by the time they are 60 years old. This will free up about 108 full days (2600 hours) of waking life. In addition, if we assume that about an hour of non-dream sleep is harnessed every night for those last 20 years, than an additional 216 full days are being spent in meditiation. Add the 108 with the 216 and we have almost an other full year added to the effective lifespan of the working occultist - equivalent to about another 8 years of regular life. This isn't even taking into consideration the claim that 20 minutes of conscious sleep is worth more than 20 minutes of waking meditation. Nor is it taking into consideration any non-dream sleep harnessed before the age of 60.

The above example shows that these practices can allow someone living to 80 years old to access the amount of working time that would normally require a lifespan of about 96 years, and that's a conservative estimate. We can probably assume about another 4 years worth of regular life harnessed before stability is attained and in increased effectiveness of practices, bringing us to an equivalent 100 year lifespan. It's like compressing 100 years of life into 80 years. The practices required to attain success in lucid dreaming and sleep yoga can be done while eating, working, walking the dog, taking out the garbage, etc... so the practices themselves even allow you to dedicate more of your "non-free" time to esoteric persuits. It's win-win.

The above example isn't even really very fair, however, as the effects would be cumulative and the ability to harness dream and sleep time would increase as well. It's said that some yogi's can harness 100% of their sleep time.

Well, this post has become quite lengthy, so I think I'll stop there. haha.

Luciftias

m1thr0s

10-03-2006, 12:51 PM

Here you have entered into yet another realm of things Amur...one I am hesitant to engage to any great extent. Pythagoras spoke of the principle of *world soul* which Carl Jung many years later defined as the *collective unconscious*. Certain symbols amount to powerful archetypes in their own right and as such have the ability to engage a *knowledge and conversation* incorporating a vast archetypal language. It's not so much that they speak as that they resonate along certain frequencies which sort of act as a master key to many other archetypal doors. It has been my experience that this pool of knowledge is not actually restricted to earth at all. Rather, the more universal a certain symbolism may be, the more able it is to tap information even beyond the borders of this world.

m1thr0s

...

10-03-2006, 01:58 PM

holy cow, motsie... I don't think I have ever met anyone who has directly and out-right said that they were going to be reincarnated, (in the context you suggest...)
What kind of spiritual path do you follow?? What meditation techniques do you use? how did you find your teacher, (do you have one?)

I'm not offended. obviously, what you claim is so great that I can't discount the possibility that you're full of shit... But I think I am humble enough to carry on a conversation with you...? if you're willing..?

m1thr0s

10-03-2006, 03:44 PM

SO, with that being said, what can we garner about the nature of the soul by talking to people, reading accounts, and experimenting by ourselves? It's all guesswork my friends... there is nothing that isn't. Some guesswork however just 'works'... There is my rant...great rant Ibisis...I think it was Bertrand Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell) that conclusively established that we can't even really prove that 1 + 1 = 2... I'll have to try to dig out the info...

In the meantime, here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/sciamer.html) is an interesting article regarding scientific proof.

m1thr0s

Amur

10-03-2006, 04:09 PM

I must conclude that I'm VERY sceptical towards concepts like soul/spirit/chakras etc. As from experience I have seen how they have been misused for control and manipulation over my own individuality and individual rights. I begin to suspect that the whole human-collective consciousness is corrupted at an energetical level. Which means that to Earth oneself is the best one can do..

As an experiment/example: Let's say that someone created into this dream-machine something which has become somewhat of an religious concept. This concept is highly archetypisized and becomes a living entitiy on it's own. Depending on the co-creator of this concept, the entity takes upon characteristics of the creator of the concept. It might even be that the concept in itself starts to govern over the individuality of the experiencer... Which is why I'm very sceptical...

...

10-04-2006, 02:54 AM

Geez, maybe I spoke a little loosely or carelessly when I said "100% convincing to me". lol =)

If you want to get all technical about it, something doesn't NEED to be 100% objectively true to be '100% convincing to me,' (subjectively...) Theoretically, something doesn't need to be true AT ALL to be "100% convincing to me."

Anyways, I hope we didn't run that motsie dude off, (or did he run himself off?)... I am interested in what he has to say about his spiritual practice =\

m1thr0s

10-04-2006, 03:27 AM

well this immediate topic is about immortality, not anyone's personal practise (not that this is unimportant or anything)...might want to try PM'g motsie with more personal types of questions...

I don't think anybody ran anybody off. We're all pretty good at standing our ground around here I am pleased to say, since any of us is capable of becoming more surly than might actually be necessary. Sort of goes with the territory I think...

m1thr0s

motsie

10-04-2006, 05:11 AM

...

Check your pms. I mailed you a message.

You can't get rid of me that easily.

miss motsie

Seipiriz

10-04-2006, 02:18 PM

How can you verify these RIDICULOUS claims about the after-life? Sure, even I have my guesses, but I recognize them as such-- GUESSES.

Well I soulnd not have bothered to reply to such an insulting post and the reason I do so is to point out something about this behaviour... The thing is that people who become aggressive when discussing about this specific matter and literally attack others calling them names, tend to be the most insecure and frightened ... The aggressive stance when opposing someone's arguements merely reveals lack of arguements

...

10-04-2006, 02:44 PM

seipiriz... I like you, and I really like this forum. I don't mean to grossly offend anyone.

If you think that my post was aggressive, to cover up 'fear' or 'insecurity'... whatever makes you feel better, but you're probably pretty wrong.
I would say that I felt mildly passionate at the time.
our
...and I did include a worthy 'arguement' in the post.. I didn't write it for the sole purpose of insulting you, man... I'm sorry.

I simply conveyed my opinion in a rather blunt and careless manner. Any aggressiveness was not directed at you, so much as it was the subject at hand.

You seem really quite excessively sensitive, and it seemed to have clouded your logic.

Seipiriz

10-04-2006, 02:57 PM

I simply point out that your stasis on the matter makes me think of those kinds of behaviour...

I do not judge you harshly but if you are not as I describe you simply give the wrong impression about yourself by talking in that way...

Anyway, no hard feelings...

About the teaching stuff, well I do not believe in teachers or in teachings about ascencion methods cause ascension is a path one must foolow alone...

m1thr0s

10-04-2006, 03:05 PM

as a matter of form [...], categorizing anyone's ideas as "ridiculous" is an invitation to trouble...a wizard should know better...

we all get a little hot under the collar at times...if we were not passionate people we would not be who we are...

m1thr0s

Anibis

10-04-2006, 03:07 PM

It is all to easy to forget that often typing does not carry the intonation you intend, and sometimes seems to carry a vibe that you did NOT wish to be there. It's funny how subtly we are out of our depth when using this sort of communicative medium.

You bastards...

:)
-Ibisis-

Seipiriz

10-04-2006, 03:07 PM

as a matter of form

Exactly...

m1thr0s

10-04-2006, 03:12 PM

You bastards...

hey...I resemble that remark...

damn you...hehe...

m1thr0s

Amur

10-05-2006, 09:56 AM

So let's say that you would reach omnipotency in this realm? What would you then do? Everything would happen at a snap of the finger. Would myself get bored to death probably from lack of challenges and go 'die' in some cosmic kaboom equivalent to a new big bang :D Though retrospectively I could snap my finger and get the boredom away and with another snap make shiny elephants come get me from the dream dimension and go into that world. Oh the wonder what would be.

Seriously, when I die after 300 years. I'll probably be a tree hrumming to the sound of the wind *grin*. That is if there is anything left alive on this planet.

If you want to get a step closer to immortality, learn how to harness and recycle the sexual energy within the body. Learn how to reach orgasms without ejaculating at all. Then when you've mastered the sexual energy, use it to heal all your own troubles along with the earth energy(which is also a form of the same energy) and when you've healed yourself let the energy go up through the spine to the higher centres into the crown. Then when that is done, get your God-self to descend down your crown and down into the Earth. That should get you immortality.

Anibis

10-05-2006, 10:17 AM

Well, it's not an unheard of thought that omnipotence would inspire one not so much towards invulnerability and super-control of everything, but rather, that an omnipotent being might possibly make themselves vulnerable to every phenomena in the universe, and so therefore to taste each aspect of it. It makes some sense to me that weakness be integrated as part of strength, that death be intergrated as part of life... I much prefer the notion that I would take many different bodies over the span of my existence and have them each subjected to birth, life and death, rather than have to be in a single one for eternity. I think it can be said that exposure and freedom are related. The more 'all powerful' you are in a 'power-over' kind of sense, the more of a prisoner you become...
-Ibisis-

motsie

10-05-2006, 10:42 AM

m1thr0s

10-05-2006, 12:06 PM

Anibis

10-05-2006, 12:26 PM

I would not want to live in one vehicle, or one aspect of a personality for eternity. It's exhausting to be me for a normal life span, much less for eternity. The purpose of taking different bodies and perspectives, as I see it, is to facilitate greater understanding of the relationships between energies. You know the joke about the blind men trying to identify the elephant they are standing by by touch. One grasps the tail and concludes it is a snake, and so forth. Incarnating with different characteristics and examining energetic relationships allows me to get past the blind spots that are inherent in any particular vantage point.

I concur absolutely. There's something refreshing about taking a new form even in this life, how much more so between incarnations? And even if you deny that we can know if there is life of any kind after death, I'd say 'so what'? The thing about projections into the afterlife is that though they may be guesses, they have measurable effects on the social behavior of people IN life. This being said, we can assume if we operate on the assumption that when we die there will be nothing, this will have as measurable (though different) an effect as if we figure that we will get sorted into a heaven or hell, or that we will be reincarnated. And if we assume we will be reincarnated, it will effect our work differently if we assume this to be a joy or a drag. Further, we will behave differently if we assume that we can reincarnate as any living thing, or only as humans. The Jewish reincarnation belief is that we are reborn into our families, for example. In all acounts, when we assume that something or nothing awaits us in the beyond, it effects how we work, and the wavelength of our wills, so to speak. My guess is that a belief in reincarnation would tend to increase the length of our planning: so we would be more inclined to work towards projects that last 100, 1000, or more years. Anyways, I assume reincarnation to be the case for that reason, as well as because on a physical level it is undoubtably the case. The picture is more complex than this just this, though, since if you figure you have 1000 years to get your shit together, you'll be a bit too relaxed as opposed to if you think that the 'Jaws of Dis' are chomping away for you if you don't work your ass off in this life, and then after that nothing matters. I guess the two extremes get reconciled in a belief such as the Buddhist take which says, 'we can reincarnate as anything, but a Human life is one in a Gazillion.' In one way, though, I suspect personally that the Jewish take makes quite a bit of sense to me: not only do you reincarnate to continue your work, but you do so along with your kin...
-Ibisis-

Amur

10-05-2006, 12:50 PM

Thank you again Ibisis, what you said is exactly what has been noted in this life. The more omnipotent and more power I gain the more prisoner I become in my own game. In this sense, becoming alone as a human isn't what humanity are created for. Though if one were in a group at the same place, things would be alltogether different.

Also the more 'transcendent knowledge' I get, the more it seems that dying into nothingness is the 'only' escape for myself lol. "I'm too old for this shit :D" hehe. Anyway, considering that many strive to get transcendent knowledge, I seem on the other hand to loathe it more than wanting it. Unfortunately it just tends to pop into my head by some devilish little gnomes laughing on the other side of the curtain. It seems that my 'awakening' wasn't even something which was meant to happen, but rather happened as a regards to what some are doing at some place on this planet/galaxy/universe/wherever.

Anyway, the summa-sumarum is that the more knowledge I seem to get about matters, the more I see that they already are Perfect and in fact that they are waiting for me to shutup and start living life as a normal human being without this knowledge :D If I were to design the universe as an omnipotent eternal being. I would certainly create an unconscious part, and I would certainly also create a life-death cycle to get surprised for each birth again and again. This I would do in all kinds of cycles to keep things running and foremost of all, interesting! Then the aspect which would be at 'top' of everything, I would make into an everlasting dream or sleep of nothingness, so that it wouldn't be aware of it all.

So what I'm really interested in is information which comes all-together from a very very alien place which doesn't event touch this universe or world. That is what I strive for :D

Anibis

10-05-2006, 01:08 PM

So what I'm really interested in is information which comes all-together from a very very alien place which doesn't event touch this universe or world. That is what I strive for :D

May I recommend the French?;)
-Ibisis

motsie

10-05-2006, 01:26 PM

all of these problems whether boredom or vanity or petty self-interest all stem from a general inability to link Self to Universe in any remarkable sort of way...we sound like a bunch of rhinocerous beetles debating how repulsive it would be to spend eternity as a rhinocerous beetle when the simple fact of the matter is...it just ain't happenin' no matter what. I admit however, to being partial to the same model of Higher Self that comes to us from the time of the Upanishads...that at the highest rung of True Self lies the truth of the saying "Thou Art That"...that there is no discernable difference in that place between the True Self and Godhead itself...

so...anybody have a problem with Godhead being immortal?

m1thr0s

No problem with the concept, except that in a timeless state of Godhead, what is immortality anyway? Past a certain point, causality ceases to function and the only experience is the weave of multiple probability which occurs simultaneously.

This nondifferentiation between probable options is what draws beings into incarnation where it is possible to separate a strand of probability and experience it through through the focus of a single identity. Fixed identity within a lifetime has benefits as well as disadvantages.

Anibis

10-05-2006, 01:42 PM

If memory serves me correctly we have just re-encountered the Atman/Anatman debate. Excellent...
-Ibisis-

motsie

10-05-2006, 01:43 PM

I concur absolutely. There's something refreshing about taking a new form even in this life, how much more so between incarnations? And even if you deny that we can know if there is life of any kind after death, I'd say 'so what'? The thing about projections into the afterlife is that though they may be guesses, they have measurable effects on the social behavior of people IN life. This being said, we can assume if we operate on the assumption that when we die there will be nothing, this will have as measurable (though different) an effect as if we figure that we will get sorted into a heaven or hell, or that we will be reincarnated. And if we assume we will be reincarnated, it will effect our work differently if we assume this to be a joy or a drag. Further, we will behave differently if we assume that we can reincarnate as any living thing, or only as humans. The Jewish reincarnation belief is that we are reborn into our families, for example. In all acounts, when we assume that something or nothing awaits us in the beyond, it effects how we work, and the wavelength of our wills, so to speak. My guess is that a belief in reincarnation would tend to increase the length of our planning: so we would be more inclined to work towards projects that last 100, 1000, or more years. Anyways, I assume reincarnation to be the case for that reason, as well as because on a physical level it is undoubtably the case. The picture is more complex than this just this, though, since if you figure you have 1000 years to get your shit together, you'll be a bit too relaxed as opposed to if you think that the 'Jaws of Dis' are chomping away for you if you don't work your ass off in this life, and then after that nothing matters. I guess the two extremes get reconciled in a belief such as the Buddhist take which says, 'we can reincarnate as anything, but a Human life is one in a Gazillion.' In one way, though, I suspect personally that the Jewish take makes quite a bit of sense to me: not only do you reincarnate to continue your work, but you do so along with your kin...
-Ibisis-

I absolutely agree that including planned reincarnation in your toolbox extends the scope of the goals you can pursue. Some tasks cannot be achieved in one lifetime because of factors such as the amount of work to be done or the inherent limitations of approaching the problem from a single viewpoint. Of course, this is not to say that this approach is necessary for transcendence. Others who don't utilize incarnational strategies, simply ask other questions which can be answered through other approaches.

Regarding heaven or hell, it is my understanding that if one chooses to spend time between incarnations in a heaven or hell, it is disruptive to retaining a conscious awareness of long term identity. Therefore, no farting around in the afterlife if you are pursuing a multiple life goal.

The mechanism as I understand it of rising to a heaven is that the being rises as far as their focus allows and at some point the being is not able to maintain a sense of identity and they sink back into incarnation. Clearly, this is disruptive to maintaining identity.

I understand there is a similar process allowing one to sink to the lower realms and burn off karmic entanglements so that they won't bind and hinder future actions, but I am unclear as to the details of this procedure. Sounds unpleasant though.

Most of the folks that I know who are pursuing planned incarnations return very quickly into flesh. I have heard several reference the time frame of a lunar cycle, but I don't know if that is due to particulars of their nature or some other mechanism such as historical patterns tied to these cycles.

Ardrill

Amur

10-05-2006, 01:49 PM

I must add that from my own exploration it almost seems like there's a magickal curtain which prevents us from getting any knowledge from the other side truly. As it involves in going through a Void which few seem capable of going through at all. There are however mythological links where it is said that one must fool the gatekeeper that one has died, to get to the other place in the first place. But I'm not so sure as I haven't experienced this more than once(and even then I got a counter-proof that because it was more clear and aware, I was in fact inside my own head ha-ha) :D.

Seipiriz

10-05-2006, 01:52 PM

Lust for immortality is I think a side effect which comes mostly on people focusing exessively on the matterial part of the existance. Immortality , by the meaning of preserving life in the 3 dimensinal state of existance, comes close to Bram Stocker's Dracula way of thinking, a being motivated and concearned only by its lust for preserving its metterial existance. For me preserving what is essential to change for the weel of existance to move on is but an egocentric mistake. Sure I can understand why practices like those of the left hand path can result into the focus of matterial preserverance but I am more used to think and act triadically and thus change for me is essential...

gryphon20032003

10-10-2006, 01:51 PM

Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the Law
So mete it be
The Order of Phosphourus teaches that change is inevitable and as you put it...essential - I can buy that... But matter or material things does matter not in the grand scheme of things..... This is our(Workers in the Spirit) playground, not reserved for christians...call to arms.....the christ consciousness is hateful to those who posses the truth of this three dimensional existence. AHA

To find immortality in this dimension is a Goal for those that can conceive its rational and productive means to and end. Life...

Love is the Law, love under Will
Fraternally Yours,
Frater Gryphon

ps I hope I'm not being too pushy...lol

m1thr0s

10-10-2006, 02:08 PM

If memory serves me correctly we have just re-encountered the Atman/Anatman debate. Excellent...
-Ibisis-I am more partial to the Paramatman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman), personally...

m1thr0s

Anibis

10-10-2006, 02:55 PM

Hmmm. Would you say that Paramatman allows for the consideration in interdependence? The key argument, it seems to me, against the notion of Atman (an maybe or mabye not Paramatman) is that it supposes a self- justifying existence. It is ultimately the akin to the unmoved mover. This seems to be the problem with most visions of the Godhead, or transcendent Diety. They are ultimatley self-justifying points of emanation from which all phenomenal lines of development radiate. From what I can ascertain, the only perspectives which seem to avoid this sort of problem are the ones which seek to account for the divine as being ultimately a sort of Pre-'Being' which fosters existances within its bosom, and which is itself those existences (Tao, Ain Soph, Tiamat, (Brahman?), Sunyata, etc...). Perhaps we ARE on the same lines here. As a Philosophical Pantheist, I hold that God ultimately is purely immanent, and as common place as my desk, the air around me, the space surrounding and expressing my thoughts, etc... Take this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_of_immanence) account of the 'Plane of Immanence', noting the Spinoza connection. In this sense, though, can there be a "God-head" or a transcendent ego? What persists to be immortal? If anything it is the myriad ripples, or swarms of activity that flock more or less together, and ultimately reproduce across vast spans of time. I do not see, however how it could be any sort of simple 'essence' distilled out of the dross of life... Most of these operations owe themself to the enclosure of language, but to the part of us that percieves in silence, what sense does an essence make?

m1thr0s

10-10-2006, 03:06 PM

From what I can ascertain, the only perspectives which seem to avoid this sort of problem are the ones which seek to account for the divine as being ultimately a sort of Pre-'Being' which fosters existances within its bosom, and which is itself those existences (Tao, Ain Soph, Tiamat, (Brahman?), Sunyata, etc...).Well, from what I can gather at least, that's what the Paramatman is. I am not sure why a "self-justifying" existence is a "problem" unless we are locked inside a dualism of some kind, which runs contrary to the whole construct to begin with...

I am generally of the opinion that Being underwrites matter at the highest rungs of existence, so when we are talking about an "essence" at that altitude, I think we are simply talking about completely unrestricted Being itself...no other "essence" need apply...

m1thr0s

Amur

10-11-2006, 11:18 AM

Something comes to mind about that if we take Infinitely Big and Infinitely Small and take the impossible half-way-between, I would almost bet my own horses that the specific point of that is right in this point of experience at the point of NOW. Kinda makes me perfect :D

gryphon20032003

10-12-2006, 01:20 PM

Very well put Amur....I concur....The infinately Now!!!

Okazaki Castle

11-05-2006, 02:47 PM

How about creating lots of levels to your ebing, some bigger, some smaller, and notching between them: a bit like astrally projecting to another form, but also simultaneously running your currently-existing physical form, just so that those you relate to and have responsibilities regarding don't get left high and dry.

Thus, you can be immortal, ahve the other forms, and also be present here physically. Then, to get round your current physical forms stupid and annoying propensity to age, mutate it and rearrange its energetics: ageing is all mechanics anyway, it's just a question of finding out how to move those.

The fun consideration in all this is that with other forms you get to have other characters, which do other things. For example, you've got your Vampyre form, your Dragon form, your Stellar form, and so on. then you can cross-reference these back into your physical form, for it is human and stupid as a rule (non-judgementally intended of course) and believes everyting it sees and hears, for the Annunaki designed that way. Hence show it things and tell it things, then Lower Self believes these things, and sets about making them your created reality. It's rather funny really.

So what happens when you get killed? *shrugs* never cared about that myself, but I guess it means that you don't have to address the limiations of physical human(ish) form anuymore, which is good because it tneds to limiting and weak (compared to Dragon Form for example) and stupid too (can't think perfectly in all areas, for example) plus prone to cuts, scrapes and needing money and hassles like that). Who are you is the real issue here, then make whatever forms you choose to inhabit immortal using mutation and w/e other means you like to change them appropriately...

ps, I've got an immmortality system all set up nicely and running as fast as this Tiem system can handle its implementations. If anyone's interested, it is handing it out on a plate sort of thing. Not that I understand it fully myself, I have to say. I just took Time on one side, Physical form on the other, gave it to the Goetics, and said 'Get back to me when it's done and in place'. They did, and it seems to work. Whoever wants such theoretical details on it as I have is welcome...

all da best,
Oazaki.