A Few Questions on the LHP [Archive]

Chella

10-10-2006, 09:07 AM

Hello everyone,

i have a few things to ask about the Left Hand Path. i not being one of its travelers am absolutely clue less as to what it is, how it works and what it aims to attain. As you can probably tell judging by my small cased (i)'s that i am a follower of the eastern philosophy of destroying the slayer of the real and through thus acheive realization of Self. i never even considered the LHP as a valid means to this end. Infact i always saw this path as a perversion followed by the ignorant and thought it attains nothing other than devolution or evolutionary stagnation at the least. This was my way of making sense of something i did not understand. i held on to this view until i met an aqquintence through the internet who was a follower of the LHP. This person was so knowledgable that i began to question my beliefs, i thought 'can somone this wise voluntarily damm himself', thats when i began to think there might be some meaning behind this masdness. But the above person's attempts at trying to explain to me how the LHP and the RHP were just different methods aimed at the same ultimate conclusion, were in vain. Not because i was not willing to listen but because he speaking to me was like a noted chemist explaining theories to a kid with a toy chemistry set. His sayings were beyond my comphrehension and threfore i once again went back to holding my old beliefs. That is until about four days ago when in a conversation via email with a person whom i consider to be like a guru, no more like a god as i hold him to be extremely attained. When he said something about tantra as being a quick but difficult path. Not knowing what tantra is except having heard its name before i did a little research to learn that tantra can be devided into two main catagories and then again in two more main catagories. That of Hindu and budhist tantra and that of the LHP and the RHP. This is when i learned that the left hand tantrists use sex, meat, drugs and alchohol and animal sacrifice to reach the same end. This made my world come crashing down as i saw all these things as the obstacles against enlightenment not means to it. This is when i sent another email to my person whom i consider a guru and in the email i made all types of point proving statements like "to say that one can realise Self through these means is like saying one can save a man's life by giving him medical attention or by stabbing him, both ways work". Needless to say what he wrote back, but lets jus say he made me aware of my ignornorance and had it fed to me. So now i no longer hold my past beliefs about the LHP, although i still no nothing about it, i have learned to respect what i don't yet understand instead of condemming it blindly. i am now aware of my lack of spiritual maturity and inability to understand more abstract matters, this is a big change from my past beliefs when i thought i knew everything including how the universe functioned and what God was. This was actually quite egotistic for someone who aimed at slaying the ego.

Anyway thank you for bearing with me so far, i just felt like getting all that preliminary information out of the way. So here are my questions, in my emails with my 'guru' he said "the LHP is like taking the bull by the horns, that is why its quick but dangerous".

1). What did he mean by quick, how is it any quicker than the RHP?

A while ago (as in yesterday) i had a major realization, all this time i was so busy engaging in esoteric practices, meditations, purification of the etheric structure, will strengthening through austerities and so on. But i saw that these things were not helping to get rid of my psychological complexes. i still felt inferior to others when i had to interact socially. This goes against the very RHP instruction to see the Divinity in all persons, in which case i shouldn't be nervous in front of "parts of my own Self". So now i think i must face my biggest demon, that of my social anxiety. To do this i am contemplating putting myself in real life situations where i ill be forced to face situations through which i can overcome my social anxiety and paranoia. This in conjunction with my meditational practices.

2). So is this what my guru meant by 'taking the bull by the horns'. Is this the characteristic of the LHP, direct confrontation of the problem instead of only through passive means such as spiritual practices? and Do any of you have any suggestions as to what situations i can put my self in to over come social anxiety?, please bear in mind that i can't ask anyone on a date as celibacy even in thought, speech and emotion is part of my spiritual practice and i also can't socialize with others as that too is against my monastic lifestyle, also i don't work as i am still a teen and don't go to school either as the topic in question has caused me to drop out. However please don't think that my over the top disiplines is what caused my social anxiety to begin with as i have only incorporated the above two austerities as of late and my social anxiety steam from when i used to be psychologically abused (bullied) in junior high school.

3). Why is the LHP "dangerous" and as my guru said in another email "meant for the few" and "most would make use of it in the wrong way".

4). i am sure that the LHP is not for me but is my above plan to face my problems head on, part of the LHP of doing things?, than perhaps i may incorporate LHP principles in my practice. Is there any paths which are a mixture of both right hand and left hand ideologies? and What is the ultimate aim of the LHP?

5). And lastly do you consider both the RHP and the LHP as vailid means to spiritual development? Or are you of the opinion that only one is correct, if so why?

Thank You all in advance.

m1thr0s

10-10-2006, 10:45 AM

The LHP is largely governed by the priniciples of self-determinism and motivated self-interest. The reality is that it takes an unusually high personal code of ethics to pull this off without the field becoming too narrow to be productive even at the level of self. If you are unable to incorporate "the others" into your view of "self", you have no real business on this path and should stick to whatever path assists you in maintaining a more holistic perspective on life. There is no shame in this but the truth of the matter is that the LHP is not well suited to everyone because not everyone is able to maintain the kind of mental set necessary to make it work.

It's generally best to NOT begin attempting to understand the LHP from a western perspective because that perspective is generally distortional. One should begin from an eastern perspective and then extrapolate that into a western context in my view.

To achieve this, you need to begin by getting a good understanding of Tantra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra) and especially look at the differences between dakshinachara and vamachara paths of tantric discipline. A brief overview can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path):

quote from Wiki:

Tantra, a set of esoteric Indian traditions with roots in both Hinduism and Buddhism, is often divided by its practitioners into two different paths: dakshinachara and vamachara, translated as Right-Hand Path and Left-Hand Path respectively. Dakshinachara consists of traditional Hindu practices such as asceticism and meditation, while vamachara also includes ritual practices that go against the grain of mainstream Hinduism, including sexual rituals, consumption of alcohol and other intoxicants, animal sacrifice, and flesh-eating. The two paths are viewed by Tantrists as equally valid approaches to enlightenment; vamachara, however, is considered to be the faster and more dangerous of the two, not suitable for all practitioners. This usage of the terms is still current in modern Tantra.

The LHP is perfectly capable of producing the same end-results as the RHP but the methodology is different and involves different kinds of starting assumptions. You have to be very careful not to allow your understanding of the LHP to be motivated from fear or predjudicial thinking and this can be a lot harder to climb out of than you might think...this is why I think it is best to go completely outside your usual frames of reference in obtaining your starting definitions.

m1thr0s

fr.novumorganum

10-10-2006, 02:21 PM

To add a bit to m1thr0s' post, it can be helpful to think of certain pragmatic differences between the two.

While I'm not convinced that there is much difference between the two at the deepest theoretical levels, at very surface levels of practice, differences do emerge.

Rhp work centers around theurgy, passive union, while IMHO, Lhp work centers around dominion, active construction.

Personally, I think of RHP as negation reached through affirmation, and LHP as affirmation reached through negation.

Lhp practicioners are often the most progressive, pro-evolutionary folks around:cool:

I also think it is important to be aware of the term black brothers. This is not a term labeling practioners of the Lhp; those who walk either path -right or left- may fall vicitim to this lodge.

Ðanisty

10-10-2006, 03:57 PM

I'm going to break your post down a little. I hope you don't mind. First of all, congratulations on having the courage to post all of this and more than that, the courage to dig deeper. You're more more mature than you're giving yourself credit for.

i am now aware of my lack of spiritual maturity and inability to understand more abstract matters, this is a big change from my past beliefs when i thought i knew everything including how the universe functioned and what God was. This was actually quite egotistic for someone who aimed at slaying the ego.This right here can be a major sticking point between RHP and LHP. You won't find many on the LHP that have any interest slaying the ego. Frankly, most of us tend to nurture our ego and even at times take pride in elevating it. You have to be careful with that though and that's one of the reasons the LHP takes a bit of watchfulness.

1). What did he mean by quick, how is it any quicker than the RHP?

A while ago (as in yesterday) i had a major realization, all this time i was so busy engaging in esoteric practices, meditations, purification of the etheric structure, will strengthening through austerities and so on. But i saw that these things were not helping to get rid of my psychological complexes. i still felt inferior to others when i had to interact socially. This goes against the very RHP instruction to see the Divinity in all persons, in which case i shouldn't be nervous in front of "parts of my own Self". So now i think i must face my biggest demon, that of my social anxiety. To do this i am contemplating putting myself in real life situations where i ill be forced to face situations through which i can overcome my social anxiety and paranoia. This in conjunction with my meditational practices.I've dealt with social anxiety most of my life. I know this probably isn't very helpful to you, but I've found that the LHP has helped me get over that because it doesn't aim to slay the ego.

2). So is this what my guru meant by 'taking the bull by the horns'. Is this the characteristic of the LHP, direct confrontation of the problem instead of only through passive means such as spiritual practices? and Do any of you have any suggestions as to what situations i can put my self in to over come social anxiety?, please bear in mind that i can't ask anyone on a date as celibacy even in thought, speech and emotion is part of my spiritual practice and i also can't socialize with others as that too is against my monastic lifestyle, also i don't work as i am still a teen and don't go to school either as the topic in question has caused me to drop out. However please don't think that my over the top disiplines is what caused my social anxiety to begin with as i have only incorporated the above two austerities as of late and my social anxiety steam from when i used to be psychologically abused (bullied) in junior high school.I don't honestly know anything about your background or your practices. What I can say has worked immensely for me is a little roleplaying. If I have to give give a public speech or make a presentation at a business meeting, or whatever. I go in there pretending that nobody in that room knows more about the subject matter than I do. Quite frankly, I think you'll find that's true in most cases, actually. If you've done even the slightest research and you've been chosen to give a presentation, it usually means nobody else knows what's going on. I sort of just wear this other persona.

3). Why is the LHP "dangerous" and as my guru said in another email "meant for the few" and "most would make use of it in the wrong way".Because to a large degree, it's self-governing. A lot of people fall into a trap that just leads to, as m1thr0s said, being totally unproductive.

4). i am sure that the LHP is not for me but is my above plan to face my problems head on, part of the LHP of doing things?, than perhaps i may incorporate LHP principles in my practice. Is there any paths which are a mixture of both right hand and left hand ideologies? and What is the ultimate aim of the LHP?I primarily consider myself LHP, but many consider me RHP. I don't believe in absolutes, so I'm sure you can find a good balance.

5). And lastly do you consider both the RHP and the LHP as vailid means to spiritual development? Or are you of the opinion that only one is correct, if so why?As far as I'm concerned, any path that leads to enlightenment is valid.

The LHP is largely governed by the priniciples of self-determinism and motivated self-interest. The reality is that it takes an unusually high personal code of ethics to pull this off without the field becoming too narrow to be productive even at the level of self. If you are unable to incorporate "the others" into your view of "self", you have no real business on this path and should stick to whatever path assists you in maintaining a more holistic perspective on life. There is no shame in this but the truth of the matter is that the LHP is not well suited to everyone because not everyone is able to maintain the kind of mental set necessary to make it work.

It's generally best to NOT begin attempting to understand the LHP from a western perspective because that perspective is generally distortional. One should begin from an eastern perspective and then extrapolate that into a western context in my view.Count me as one of the lucky ones then, m1thr0s. I know very little about eastern philosophy. I think I was just born this way and managed not to let it fuck me up over the years.

m1thr0s

10-10-2006, 05:44 PM

Count me as one of the lucky ones then, m1thr0s. I know very little about eastern philosophy. I think I was just born this way and managed not to let it fuck me up over the years.well...it has been argued of course that nobody ever really "joins" the LHP so much as they are born to it and finally come to terms with that...usually after everything else has failed them miserably...

I have always thought there was a certain amount of truth to that which is one of the reasons why it really doesn't matter what other people think about this path so much...how would they know...it's not their time...

m1thr0s

...

10-11-2006, 03:14 AM

wow dude you sound super cool.

It seems one of your biggest problems is being trapped in a 'good vs evil' complex... One of the points of the spiritual path is transcending dualistic thoughts. Have you read the 'tao te ching'? It blew my mind. Here are a couple passages..

(5)
heaven and earth are ruthless andtreat the myriad creatures as straw-dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.
....

(62)
The way is refuge for the myriad creatures
it is that by which the good man protects
and that by which the bad is protected.

(23)
a man of The Way conforms to the Way
a man of virtue conforms to virtue
a man of loss conforms to loss
he who conforms to The Way is gladly accepted by The Way
he who conforms to virtue is gladly accepted by virtue
he who conforms to loss is gladly accepted by loss

21
a man of great virtue follows the way and the way only

If you are sincere sincere sincere.. I can tell you what the most powerful tantric practice I have experience with is.
Solo-cultivation. Basically, you masturbate, but without ejaculating. You learn to bring the orgasm up and into the body instead of out of your penis. Within a short period of time, you can cultivate orgasmic being all day.

The reason I don't practice this, personally..? I can't do it without ejaculating any more. I used to be able to do it for hours... everyday for weeks without ejaculating, and I became very orgasmic. This was when I was most dedicated to my spiritual path.

...

10-11-2006, 04:25 AM

hey you wanna tell us a little more about your story? I am interested in the people you talk about, especially.

Anibis

10-11-2006, 05:24 AM

Ah, welcome to the boards Chella. I have had many of the same trepidations about LHP and so on as you have, but over the years have found it unavoidable that I treat both sides of my being in order to stay in ballance. I suppose I would advocate the 'ambidextrous way', which essentially means I like to cultivate physical preactices that get both sides of my body working in union so that my mind can view things from two opposite perspectives at once in order to construct a whole of them. Though your main questions have been answered by those with more expertise than I, I would comment that the whole process seems somewhat akin to whether you seek to operate from the right or the left sides of your brain! Further, it also depends on what 'enlightenment' is supposed to mean, since depending on how you construct the idea of what the goal is, a different set of procedures seems apporpriate to attain it. I try to 'cultivate joyful encounters' as a way of participating in, worshiping, and expressing the divine. This generally means I don't practice austerities alot, and if I do employ some sort of restriction it is such so that it opens up greater joys. But the difference between tangible returns and pining for the impossible must always be kept in mind. I have chosen to look at enlightenment as if it were a fairly mundane process that is present everywhere but which can reach higher concentrations is properly cultivated. Anyhow like you, I found myself following the trail of my own questions, which is one of the reasons why I have ended up here.

One of the first things that struck me about your post aside from your obvious and laudable courage is the apprach you have to the letter 'I'. very interesting, I'd say, since one could easily associate I with the erect phallus, and i with the retracted phallus. The practice of writing the lower case 'i' seems to be a form of celibacy. Interesting, and I don't even know your gender so don't take it as an assumption, just a sort of symbolic observation.

In any account, it's great to have you on the boards and I hope that you keep asking questions. One of the greatest insights in my life as I started on my path was the phrase *The Question is the Answer.*, and it really is, if you look at it right. Cheers;
-ibisis-

Kain

10-11-2006, 06:06 AM

Welcome to the boards Chella, it is great to have you with us. I must agree with Ðanisty that you're more mature than you give yourself credit for, and I must also say that the replies given by the other members are especially important viewpoints and I happen to agree with what has been said so far. I think fr.novumorganum made a particularly important addition to m1thr0s's already exceptionally informative post concerning the so-called Balck Brothers, a gentle yet instrumental distinction that completely changes the setting concerning the potential of the two paths, their end goal and their failed offshoots/attempts. The LHP is often misconceived as what constitutes this "lodge", particularly by non-LHP practitioners or by many participants of the lodge, attempting to further validate their approach.

The thing is, the LHP truly is a path for the few and like m1thr0s already stated, it often takes one to try all other approaches and have them fail miserably in order to eventually accept that one was born with that all along. As for the dangers of the path, as Ðanisty already said, being Self-governing can be quite destructive and unproductive if one falls victim to a shallow perception of what Self represents, and that is actually the majority's most characteristic problem, misidentification and shallow perception of what Self is constituted of being the primary inhibition towards so-called enlightenment...

It is good to have you with us and I'm looking forward to further seing you around the boards. I hope this post was helpful,

Kain

Anibis

10-11-2006, 06:47 AM

Would Fra.No or someone care to give us a better description of the Black Brothers? I've always been a little cautious about this term. I would usually substitute the term "Selfish Magicians" or something, just cuz "Black Brothers" evokes how Color has been colonized by emotional symbolism so at to create some pretty ugly crossed wires. What's wrong with Black? I like it myself. Anyway, It would be great, if we are distinguishing the legitimate RHP and LHP from this other Lodge, that someone would give a detailed description of them. Are they organized into a specific path or what? Who are the Black Brothers?
-Ibisis-
P.S. I suspect that only white people would ever use this term in this way...

fr.novumorganum

10-11-2006, 08:16 AM

I can certainly see the possible problem with the terms "black brothers/black lodge" and "the great white brotherhood". I've had more than a few discussions with people who thought the terms did have a racial bias.

Crowley's most workable definition of the term refers to those who, when faced with the choice to cross the abyss and achieve the supurnal unity turn away and fall back down the tree. They never raise above the abyss, and thus in Thelmic mythology, set chronozon as their highest point of development:

For Choronzon is as it were the shell or excrement of these three paths, and therefore is his head raised unto Daäth, and therefore have the Black Brotherhood declared him to be the child of Wisdom and Understanding, who is but the bastard of the Svastika. And this is that which is written in the Holy Qabalah, concerning the Whirlpool and Leviathan, and the Great Stone.
(Ibid. 3rd Æthyr)

They have set their unintegrated ego as king ( the fallen bastard king)--the issue isn't simple to kill the ego or not, but to the willingness to let go of the self in the face of the pure stream of chaos streaming into matter out of the cup of babylon. Those who let go enter as a higher recreated and self-created ego into the silence of babylon--the city of pyramids. Those who turn back give into fear, fear of total immersion, fear of loss of the self...and thus can never evolve.

Are there actual black lodges? At times I think yes; at other times no. I honestly do think there was a real black lodge (thule) in Nazi germany. As I get older, too, the exchange between RAW and Grady in Cosmic Trigger about why the gnosis keeps getting busted rings truer and truer to me.

Anibis

10-11-2006, 08:45 AM

It seems like characters of this sort are holding the reigns of power in a lot of places...
-Ibisis-

Anibis

10-11-2006, 09:16 AM

Now that I think about it, I wonder if this was just Thelemic code (and a lovely technical description) for people who choose to rest their truth upon unquestionable axioms. Are 'Black Brothers' basically people who close themselves off from the world with a claim to some unquestionable 'true' knowledge of something, and then proceed to bring others down with them, so to speak. I personally have no problem with Daath, or with knowledge, but the problem seems to be the assumption that you can lock reality down into your own special knowledge. So the 'Black Brothers' would basically be fundamentalists who trade in their open minds for the grossly exhaggerated power facilitated by ignorance. A thought...
-Ibisis-
By the way, contemporary French philosophy has waged its own battle on this front, which is very interesting to compare to the qabalistic account...

fr.novumorganum

10-11-2006, 09:18 AM

I like your take on it, Ibisis.

Just as a side note, the terms, while having aplace in thelmic mythology, pre-date theleme (as do most of our mythos:p ).

Daath itself is not the problem, but setting daath as the crown seems to be.

I couldn't resist this link: http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_001/mib.htm a little nutty, but a good read none the less.

m1thr0s

10-12-2006, 12:03 AM

...

10-12-2006, 01:06 AM

Don't lie mithros-- we know you're a ringleader O_O

m1thr0s

10-12-2006, 01:36 AM

rings...heh...yeah...I've led a lot of rings it's true...

also triangles and other assorted nefarious symbolisms...

I think I might be like the Al Capone of plane geometry or something...

m1thr0s

MythMath

10-12-2006, 10:21 AM

Not to mention fancy geometry...;)

MM

PS - Did AC really introduce the 'V' (for Victory) and the
'thumb's up' gestures to Churchill/war-time Britain...?

fr.novumorganum

10-12-2006, 11:41 AM

bah...all this silliness just gives the Secret Chiefs a bad name...but then I have my own take on the Secret Chiefs anyway...

We should probably carve out a forum just for conspiracy theories. Occultists love that crap and are forever going on about this or that conspiracy...ultimately I find it all a childish distraction from the real world, but I admit that a certain amount of distraction is probably essential to maintaining a sane outlook on life...

m1thr0s

by no means did I take the article seriously; I just thought all would get a rise out of it...

i actually love the fact there is no consipiracy board here...it speaks to the seriousness of the great work promoted on AF

MythMath

10-12-2006, 01:04 PM

i actually love the fact there is no consipiracy board here...it speaks to the seriousness of the great work promoted on AF
I concur...

So do I...

Amur

10-12-2006, 01:21 PM

For cats sake, don't make a conspiracy board rofl. Could draw out the entire scheme-board of things with what not flying alien space-invaders coming here in reptilian dress-suits while I'm super-christ blowing off the entire universe into the 4th dimension rofl :D

A golden rule would still be "Know theeself", as if one know's what one likes and dislikes and want to do and so on then it's easier to get beneficial results from whatever one is doing and one will likely not go astray to areas in which one doesn't have knowledge about but still preaches via energy-changings how things should be. I think it's very good that so few knows about the LHP, as it's said that an idiot with an arsenal of weapons is more dangerous than someone intelligent with an arsenal of weapons. And besides, we all know what happens to a child who is given all it's wishes from start. Becomes quite the burden in the end if there are no borders set.

In the end whatever RHP or LHP it comes in the end to the point of being oneself in balance with oneself in the internal and the external world. In the end it's all the same (for myself) as I'm living inside this place where everything is Consciousness, where I am currently residing inside this body writing this message to you. Perhaps I am this Consciousness as you also reading this text, which means that I am both me and you but not through this vehicle, nor even through this consciousness, but rather through the universe itself. Seem to have been lost in this Consciousness paradox for a long time as well as in a good/evil dualism paradox with little or no connection to this consciousness. So shortly put I've been insane, but now that I found home to my little consciousness inside this beautiful biological body I'm quite happy to conclude that whatever I feel is right and helps me evolve spiritually more than going on some show what I am supposed to think and feel about something. I myself believe enlightenment to be a form of unity where one has simply just quit the categorizing and start experiencing things like they truly are, whetever they be bitter, sweet, pungent, and so on. What's the point in imagining the sweet to be bitter and the bitter to be sweet when ones own taste sense already knows the answer. For example, a controlling person might find his own enlightenment in surrender and letting go of the control to get better into the flow, or then he might find his enlightenment in going into controlling everything and becoming God in all aspects, make the flow, the river, and everything within it already. Or then he will find his enlightenment some other way. A hurt one might find enlightenment in being fully healed. A healed one might find his enlightenment in being hurt. Enlightenment might find itself in it's opposite, de-enlightenment. Without one there isn't the other and so on. And this text is as valuable as the book which is just about to get thrown into the fire for warmth... Many enlightenment chasers are like Ouroborus, chasing their own tail, some might even go as far as to eat it :D

If you feel lost, I recommend that you go sit beneath a big tree and meditate connecting to Earth. It will gladly help you get somewhere, and if not somewhere, then it will atleast help you to heal.

Another viewpoint of LHP and RHP might be that LHPs are more akin to Creators, while RHPs are more like followers to that which has already been Created. In this viewpoint we are all LHP and RHP. Lol starting to feel guilt about rambling so much :D So sorry... In a few months/years I'll probably read this and go "Amur, you were such a frigging tool" and laugh my head off.

In an equal sense I see RHP as dangerous as it can make hypocratical labels and categories about people generally who aren't inside ones own 'clan'. Which in turn causes a dualism all again over itself. "This is bad for you, this is good for you, that is good for you, that was bad for you, what the people did was against this term, what this people did was with this term" Instead of just looking and observing how things unfold without making rules about it.

In the end I believe spiritual development for myself to come from the multitude of different experiences I go through. When I've experienced enough, I will probably Breathe it into somekind of Writing(Breath) of Existence and marvel at it's Beauty and then go into another place.

m1thr0s

10-12-2006, 02:12 PM

of course, one should avoid "knowing thyself" too much in the biblical sense of the term...they say it causes blindness, retardation, tooth decay, all kinds if nasty stuff...lol

which sort of makes me wonder...do you suppose the phrase "know thysef" was actually originally intended as an antisocial exclamation?

That Pythagoras...what a grouch...hehe...

m1thr0s

Amur

10-12-2006, 02:23 PM

of course, one should avoid "knowing thyself" too much in the biblical sense of the term...they say it causes blindness, retardation, tooth decay, all kinds if nasty stuff...lol

Rofl, I lost a bit of my sight-sense and certainly became retarded, well my teeth are straigthening but I'm still way out there. Brings to mind that I would like to have a shotgun and the person responsible for the 'quest' of 'Self-knowledge'. As if there was anything wrong in the first place... Now why doesn't anyone tell that "You are already Perfect as you are". Though perhaps things are going already perfect so no point in writing this either. I believe I'm about to retire so take care everyone :)

Ðanisty

10-12-2006, 04:15 PM

Uh, I don't really think a conspiracy board would be that great, personally. First of all, I have very little interest in it, but more importantly, it draws in the really crazy people...I don't mean people with just a few unique ideas...I mean it draws in people that don't even make sense.

m1thr0s

10-12-2006, 09:19 PM

cool...I guess my first instinct was the best then...

m1thr0s

...

10-13-2006, 01:12 AM

...

10-13-2006, 01:15 AM

... but then it does draw in the crazies =p

Ðanisty

10-13-2006, 04:29 AM

I think it is narrow-minded to automatically disclude the possibility that such conspiracy theories are false, based simply on the notion that they're so fantastic... (or have been previously labeled as a 'conspiracy theory'...)

I think that discussion of such things, above all, should not be discouraged.

I believe there is a strong possibility that there are fraternities with excessive amounts of power. I believe in transmissions, which could make such fraternities very powerful-- and much more so than any ordinary practitioner wiithout the aid of powerful transmission.

I don't think that it is so outrageous to be open-minded about such things.I'm not suggesting they should be discouraged or that we shouldn't be open-minded. I'm suggesting that it shouldn't be too strongly encouraged because it has a strong possibility of causing the site to lose it's focus. People can and will post theories without a forum set up for that...that's all I'm saying.

Anibis

10-13-2006, 05:05 AM

In some respects, the strong point of this forum is it's emphasis on philosophy. Thus substantiability of our claims, coupled with a rigorous analysis of our own perspectives in the matter are two 'keys' to keeping the discourse on track. While one should not discount all suspicions that there are in fact conspiracies in certain places, the 'conspiricay theorist' comminity is so filled with disinformation that in my opinion it is best to avoid it. In this case Occams razor usually works a little better than the David Icke collection... God forbit that I should prove to be a rationalist, heh heh...
-Ibisis

m1thr0s

10-13-2006, 08:53 AM

The rather strained and absurd associating of things like Naziism and clandestine "evil" of all kinds to a so-called Left-Hand-Path by Crowley and Blavatsky in particular was ill-conceived and reckless opportunism at best. Either of them were educated enough to have known better than to pull this kind of moronic crap but, in truth, either of them were prone to these kinds of infantile theatrics. We will never come to understand what really drives people to participate in these kinds of movements by cloaking them in some sort of dualistic rhetorical nonsense.

Crowley, in particular, was given to attacking anyone who disagreed with him about anything as having succumbed to becoming a "Black-Brother" (I must certainly be a Black Brother just for pointing this out!). It would be pure comedy but for the fact that many people get the wrong idea from it all. Suffice it to say, these icons of occult enlightenment had their "off days" and their logical "blind spots" the same as anybody else. While there may in fact be certain underscoring commonalities behind many nefarious organizations of power (in particular), lumping them together in this particular way will simply never lead to a useful understanding of any of it.

At one point Crowley went so far as to assign a special number to the LHP...the number 89 is a b-a-d n-u-m-b-e-r. Beware the number 89 at all costs. When you come to the number 89 in any mathematical calculation, it would be best to simply not mention it by name at all. The fact that it contains both Ogdoad (8) and Ennead (9) just proves how inherently bad it really is and when we realize that it is also the 24th prime number...like...oh my god...that just totally cinches it...that means it's just like Runes and fits inside the Key of Mars (the b-a-d planet, as we all know...)

rather pathetic actually...and yet people somehow manage to actually cling to this drivel...

m1thr0s

Kain

10-13-2006, 09:50 AM

Rofl...I guess so...

That's a really good point put forth m1thr0s, and it is certainly true that a lot of damage has been done by generalizations of this sort. As you say, it would have been a pure commedy element really, apart from the fact that such connotations seem to really do affect people and give distorted views of certain archetypal aspects or tendencies, in fact often initiating intense and equally tiresome and pointless conflicts where those had no reason to exist.

In the end, I guess that is a danger that is always present and originates from the subjectivity of using semantics in general, as using a term does not mean that others using that term attribute the same qualities to it. This is something that cannot be helped however, and it is necessary to keep things clean and readily perceptible in their intended meaning, at least as far as we can ascertain such a communicational state. Language can indeed breed a multitude of pointless misunderstandings, yet language is all we've got in most situations, for now at least.

Very interesting thread, it is great to see a discussion on the LHP with actual worth/meaning for a change! We really have assembled an awesome group of people here already, and things are only bound to improve...

Kain

m1thr0s

10-13-2006, 09:59 AM

I suppose in Crowley's case at least I always give him a little latitude (possibly unwarranted) for being a trickster who simply couldn't help himself in many cases. I'm afraid that Blavatsky was just a plain old-fashioned biggot in my view. Hermes was a trickster too and like Hermes, Crowley often teaches through trickery. If you really take the time to study his work, you'll gradually come to know this. There are many things he says that you would simply have to be dumber than dirt to buy into lock, stalk and barrel... I believe he really did want people to think for themselves and not follow upon his words like cattle, so he sets up a number of traps that's going to have you looking pretty damn cow-like if you don't get over it...

m1thr0s

Amur

10-13-2006, 12:47 PM

At one point Crowley went so far as to assign a special number to the LHP...the number 89 is a b-a-d n-u-m-b-e-r. Beware the number 89 at all costs. When you come to the number 89 in any mathematical calculation, it would be best to simply not mention it by name at all. The fact that it contains both Ogdoad (8) and Ennead (9) just proves how inherently bad it really is and when we realize that it is also the 24th prime number...like...oh my god...that just totally cinches it...that means it's just like Runes and fits inside the Key of Mars (the b-a-d planet, as we all know...)

rather pathetic actually...and yet people somehow manage to actually cling to this drivel...

m1thr0s

rofl, I find it even more pathetic to notice this kind of thought-chains inside myself and actually notice parts of me or other me's that actually believe in this crap. It's good to be split personality as I don't have to be that person all the time, I can throw in a few elvises every now and then, and entirely free of charge :D Apparently it was one of the personalities leaving abrahadabra, so it was good to bid farewell.

Terry Pratchett has pretty much jokes made about what you wrote in the discworld series.

ps. I always kinda liked Mars a billions of years ago when the interior was still molten lava. The small planet with it's cozy place to be at :D Had an experience where I woke up only to be Mars itself, feeling that I should get to the army to get some expertize on the field along with the chance to actually blow things up *grin*. Can't wait to go as it's quite all-encompassing govermental care with lots of free time for studying.

Btw, I got to the point in LHP that I was Christ breeding Christ breeding Christ in an endless infinite loop of logicality. Basically everything was this logicality and I was the core of it. It was infinities upon infinities experienced directly through somekind of recursion inductive loop going on unto crazy amounts. This was achieved by SEVERE traumatization from all places possible along with going against everything, including myself. Must be the worst nightmare I ever saw, I even regret that I ever experienced it. So because of all this I do think that LHP has some borders one shouldn't cross (just to keep oneself intact). I could've literally created the entire universe again from scratch with all the shapes and so on. Then I went to a bar and this guy told me that 'what's the point in destroying the universe only to create another identical one in it's place'. Felt kinda stupid at this point :D Lesson of this all? Go to bars more often and have a few beers :D

m1thr0s

10-13-2006, 08:10 PM

Amur

10-14-2006, 06:35 AM

well, for what it's worth I think there actually is a very good point to the whole destruction-recreation process...for one thing, it's a great way to deal with pollutions...

I wouldn't treat the bar-fly's wisdom as anything too terribly profound...sounds like the same old lazy good-for-nothing bs to me actually...

completely uninspired so they think themselves wise...

Actually he had quite the point :D No need to make the same mistake twice and go around the same circle twice hehe, unless one wants to run around it again, but it might be dull. Funnily most ppl here who 'are on touch' of things are to be found in bars. The cultural epicentre of southern finland rofl..

m1thr0s

10-14-2006, 11:25 PM

see, that's where we disagree Amur...I am very into the whole cycles of destruction-creation thing personally. It happens that it's quite impossible to ever do things "exactly the same way twice" anyway, so this argument doesn't really wash. Creation, even if you go through the very same motions, always varies according to your position in the NOW...which is always slightly different than it was just a few minutes ago. It's all laid out in the Dance of Shiva...the whole Tantric process is a continuous destruction/creation thing. It's actually only when you stop doing this that things begin to stagnate...

m1thr0s

...

10-15-2006, 11:31 PM

yeah, man... That seems the bane of the western mystic world... more so than anything I have ever witnessed.
Alot of people are more attracted to the *subculture* of 'magick' than to the path of evolution itself.

Crowley for example... Is despicable in his writings, IMHO.. the incessant use of crappy metaphors... you'd think he was trying to imitate 15th century old english or something.
What a dork. ;)

The terrible thing is I can look at someone and usually tell if they're into the magick subculture. Just by the way the look, dress, etc... Alot of times I can't even tell if they even really believe some of the things they say.

m1thr0s

10-16-2006, 12:36 AM

It's a huge mistake to separate Crowley from the time in which he labored I think...things are moving so fast...no one could have predicted it really...not even him. I don't know a single person that doesn't have a problem with his writings at some point or another but you have to remember that Crowley was an initiator...not a closer, so a lot of his stuff is kind of silly if you take it for a finished construct, since in nearly 99.9% of the times it simply isn't anywhere near to that. 777 is a great example of this in my mind. That book drives me nuts sometimes. It's like this concentrated index of knowledge that might exist someday but actually does not exist in the book itself due to its horribly unfinished condition...

and yet it points in a direction which is highly worthwhile as a matter of following up on parts of it by others... We actually see the same pattern in a number of so-called "fathers" of this or that field of study. In many instances these people are promotional people more than they are actual experts in the fields that they are promoting. Their success often lies in their ability to convince others of the possibilities extant in these areas moreso than the singular supremacy of their own particular dogmas...

Freud alway comes to mind in this discussion...terrible shrink...great promoter...

m1thr0s

MythMath

10-16-2006, 01:32 AM

We actually see the same pattern in a number of
so-called "fathers" of this or that field of study.

In many instances these people are promotional people more than
they are actual experts in the fields that they are promoting.

Their success often lies in their ability to convince others of the
possibilities extant in these areas moreso than the singular
supremacy of their own particular dogmas...

What is the sound of one person telling a story
about John Cage tossing coins in the woods...
while alone picking mushrooms...?

. . . .

. . .

. .

.

_______________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_cage

Chella

10-16-2006, 09:25 AM

Thanks to all for your responses,

i'm sorry for the late reply, due to a recent austerity i didnot allow myself to go on the internet. As for all the responses thus far they seem to offer a lot of food for thought. i will certainly contemplate all that has been said. One of the main characteristics of the RHP that of celibacy or brahmacharya has been on my mind as of late. After observing it for some time i feel as though what i am doing is repressing it not sublimation. i read somewhere that the tantic view on this is that one can never over come the sexual instinct unless one dives head first in to it. Aside from all the great advice already given can someone offer some enlightment on the above statement. Also using sexuality as a means for transcending dualism seems to be a valid technique but what about the loss of seminal energy or virya. Conservation of the vital fluid is said to be the panacea of all ills. It is instructed to be conserved so it can be used for higher purposes like stimulating dormant brain centers resulting in creativity and health. Some of the great men in history chose to be celibate like Leaonardo de Vinci, Issic Neouton, Mozart, Beathoven, ect.

Luciftias

10-16-2006, 09:42 AM

Alot of people are more attracted to the *subculture* of 'magick' than to the path of evolution itself.
<snip>
The terrible thing is I can look at someone and usually tell if they're into the magick subculture. Just by the way the look, dress, etc...

Can't someone be both? This is the whole "judge a book by it's cover" thing. If an occultist dresses goth or like a hippy than they must not be serious about the development of their soul? I think that's a load of bullshit, to be frank. I've known plenty of people who were into the "subculture of magick" (as you put it) and they definitely knew their shit and were doing plenty of Work. You just don't know why a person is dressing the way they do. For example, my style is influenced by goth. I do it partly because I'm in a band and image helps sell concert tickets and albums, but I am also simply attracted to the "darker" side of things, and this will naturaly influence my choice of clothing. It just doesn't do you any good to jump to that conclusion about people based on their style.

Luciftias

m1thr0s

10-16-2006, 10:07 AM

Some of the great men in history chose to be celibate like Leaonardo de Vinci, Issic Neouton, Mozart, Beathoven, ect.You might want to double-check your facts on this...I don't think they are quite accurate. As a rule, it is generally more productive to cite your sources regarding specific advices or instructions you may have found lying about. Without knowing who we are talking about or what context they might be operating in, it's nearly impossible to comment intelligently.

There are a lot of differing opinions regarding sexuality and I don't know that there is any one-size-fits-all kind of answer to this question. A lot depends on how you are approaching sexuality itself. Like most things, it can either be focused or unfocused, beneficial or detrimental, mostly depending upon the degree to which it is being consciously used (or not used) for any higher purposes.

A number of earlier Kundalini books I read years ago were of the general opinion that sexuality needed to be largely curtailed to derive the proper benefit from this practise. More modern materials seem to be saying the opposite. When faced with conflicting data of this sort you pretty much have to turn your attention inwardly and decide for yourself what you think is best. I don't personally see any inherent contradiction with sexuality and consciousness work, but the more you can consciously integrate the two, the better off you will tend to be, or rather, the more benefit you will derive.

It is the divisions we place on things that tend to do the most damage. The trick is to learn to deal from necessity itself and not layer a whole lot of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" upon things. Consider nature itself...does nature require abstinence as a pre-condition of enlightenment, or is this just some idea somebody pulled out of their ass for whatever reasons? If it looks like the latter might actually be the case...screw it, so to speak...The more you learn, the more you will discover that the so-called "authorities" are very often coming from an established agenda of some kind that may not always be as relevant to the here-and-now and we might have hoped. That's ok...that's all just part of the process of learning to attend to your own inner guide. There are very few absolutes in this business...if any at all...

It may be useful to you to consider that Shiva, who is widely considered the greatest ascetic who ever lived (albeit a godform), was a highly sexual being. But he was able to approach sexuality on the same plane as higher consciousness itself, so we can assume from this that he wasn't just some sort of rampaging fuck-monkey... Sometimes these symbols can be very instructive. I would like to recommend a east-indian classic to you called The Origin of a Young God. I think it may help you with this question.

m1thr0s

frater luciferi

10-20-2006, 01:05 AM

Can't someone be both? This is the whole "judge a book by it's cover" thing. If an occultist dresses goth or like a hippy than they must not be serious about the development of their soul? I think that's a load of bullshit, to be frank. I've known plenty of people who were into the "subculture of magick" (as you put it) and they definitely knew their shit and were doing plenty of Work. You just don't know why a person is dressing the way they do. For example, my style is influenced by goth. I do it partly because I'm in a band and image helps sell concert tickets and albums, but I am also simply attracted to the "darker" side of things, and this will naturaly influence my choice of clothing. It just doesn't do you any good to jump to that conclusion about people based on their style.

Luciftias

image is bullshit. it is merely dressings and "costumes" for whatever act we choose to play. charles manson was a twisted fuck and who did he lead into one of the most sucessfull ritualistic acts ? a group of optimistic hippies. And if you read into what they commited- it was a very sucessfull enactment of black magick.

m1thr0s

10-20-2006, 02:02 AM

Αzωת

10-20-2006, 11:22 AM

Manson was actually a product of the California State Penal System so I'm having a hard time making the connection...what was it that made his prison con-games on these hippy twits "black magick" exactly? It only ever came across as mindless murder and mayhem to me.

m1thr0s
Manson allegedly had ties to a corrupted chapter of the O.T.O. called "The Solar Lodge":
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/sunrise/manson.htm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/maledoro/Crazy%20Smilies/b01a6c56.gif

m1thr0s

10-20-2006, 12:13 PM

Hmmm...that's an interesting article. Some stuff in there I had never seen before...

This is way off-topic but I will say this: it is really uncanny how perfectly positioned Manson was to discredit LSD, the Free-Love Movement and Magick all in one fell swoop. It's a CIA Director's dream come true and I have a very hard time believing that there was not some serious string-pulling going on behind this character...Charlie stated many times during his trial that he was only exactly what he had been created to be...he may have been telling the truth.

m1thr0s

Αzωת

10-20-2006, 02:31 PM

That was something else that I had read about Charlie; that he was a Company spook.

An interesting book that I cannot recommend highly enough is Turn Off Your Mind: The Mystic Sixties and the Dark Side of the Age of Aquarius by Gary Lachman. It covers Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, Jack Parsons, and so on...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/maledoro/Angry%20Smilies/29758bbb.gif

m1thr0s

10-20-2006, 11:51 PM

That was something else that I had read about Charlie; that he was a Company spook.yeah? I wouldn't be surprized. Most people here may be too young to remember that the 60's was a period in which the CIA was heavily infiltrating "subversive" groups with a vengeance. They still do this today but at that time it was a huge priority with them and charlie boy was perfect mole material. This guy virtually grew up in jail. I seriously doubt he spent 5 whole years in the real world...so he just happens to wind up in one of the most exclusive social reformation scenes going down in the whole country? One way or another he was wired to blow. It was only ever a question of when or where. It's all just a little hard to chalk up to chance...:mmad:

m1thr0s

Amur

10-21-2006, 07:28 AM

Hmm.. Been thinking for a while again about some matters. And apparently my own things went straight to HELL _WHEN_ I got my own feelings ripped away from me because the external got afraid of me. Well anyway, don't say that I didn't have some issues to solve. But anyway... "Image is nothing, thrist is everything" indeed.

The very big plus with LHP and Kundalini is that it doesn't look at the pinkiedinkietinkie thing anymore than at the SERIOUS SATAN INSIDE. It has an equal amount of spark for every feeling, be it bad or good. Because it's a feeling, which in turn builds up the larger 4-dimensional Me. Which in turn might be your God, whom one melts into after this life, (if that's in the life plan of oneself). So while the LHP's do feel what they really feel, they in this become more like human beings as they go through feelings like they come and choose to follow it. This in turn might or might not give a sort of impeccability towards oneself in all situations. Of course it might also be usen as an excuse for just purely idiotical behavior which often is like shooting oneself in the leg.

Wonder why I feel more enlightened for every cycle which stops at being seriously pissed off and enraged in flames that feel Divinely Pure.